I'm starting this thread here following a message I wrote in another thread explaining why, as a professional, with my partner and our company, we are interested in iClone as a production tool:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223535.aspx

And an answer from prabhatM following that message:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223961.aspx

Feel free to participate to this discussion.

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

So, me and my partner and as a company we are trying to find a way to setup a new kind of productions that could be seen as "valuable enough" by TV medias so a all new production chain could be started:

Diffusion Wanted by TV --triggers--> Subvention and Financial Support --triggers--> Production.

As prabhatM suggested, a strategy is needed but I think we differ about the right one to adopt.

prabhatM suggest creating a large content library and attack the domain. I have a more viral approach and wouldn't mind many me-too productions, at least this would raise the visibility of such productions.

Perhaps both are valid anyway so it may be just a matter of preference or resources.

We, at radfac productions, we do not have the resources to create a large content library so we have no choice but to attempt the viral strategy.

The challenge here is of two kinds:

1) The Content: Proposing something we are not used to see on TV. Currently, "animations" are reserved to children/cartoon type of productions. We want to create something more like current TV series, but in 3D. Our goal is not to do 'cartoonish' animation, we are targeting mocap instead because our goal is not to show off our animation skills but to produce addictive story tellings with realistic renderings and believable animations.

2) The Making: Adopting a new kind of production workflow, by adopting the "machinima" idea. that is, instead of using "heavy" machinery of high-end 3D tools we would like to use "machinima" tools which would help us to produce the images as fast as possible but without compromising the final quality. We don't target "PBR" (Physically Based Rendering) though but what we call "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" instead. We are more interested in the working ambiance of a shot instead of its accuracy in terms of realism.

In that spirit, we need proper tools. The closest tool we discovered so far having the needed features to attempt such a journey is iClone. But it has his flaws too and we are trying to find workarounds, tricks, trying to push Reallusion to fix/add the 'little' things we need to achieve our goals.

Here is where we are: experimenting. We already have everything else, series concepts, story lines, etc..

We just need to find the right ways, with iClone, to get to a level that would be accepted by TV standards.

Then, the quest for an audience will begin.

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

Having worked with iClone for a while now, I am attracted to a sort of semi-realistic approach.

There are those that are really good it this (I like the work from Mark of Small W Studios), and I find them inspiring in showing what can be done with primarily iClone.

I also believe that iClone productions can have a lot of personality, and that it is possible to develop an individual style.

The question of course after all is said and done is how to distribute and find an audience. TV in particular seems to be a medium that is very much set in its ways.

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Thanks for starting this thread.

I moved away from animation for 25-30 years or so and a year back renewed my interest. In India the industry now has matured and become very competitive. Many Indian studios do global delivery now. Speilberg's Dreamwork Studio is now co-owned and financed by an Indian industrialist. So the industry is now led by the guys with deep pockets.

While thinking about the industry, I realised only way to survive and thrive in the industry is to maintain a decent quality but producing at 50% of the regular market cost. That's where ICLONE comes in as a strategic tool.

But since my immediate need is Toon Shader, I will wait for ICLONE to mature in that segment. But that's okay. One could use the time preparing the scripts, doing the audio productions and developing the basic models / characters. I use DAZ for all my character development.

I am glad ICLONE started incorporating Cloth and hair animation. These two features will add tremendous value to the animation in the segment I am working.

This is about just feeding the "regular animated content" for the animation segment on the TV channels.

I have also been thinking and testing the idea that you have been dabbling - producing the regular serials with digital actors and targeting the GEC.

This is only possible if you think along the line of Avatar or Speilberg's Tintin. We can't achieve that kind of production quality, but one has to bring in the similar level of believality with characters, locations and storyline.

Cry / Unreal level of rendering and facial animation will hold the attention.

You also need to produce animations quickly, like the serials are canned on daily basis. Perhaps we need to go back to the cinema methods of 1960's ( direct cinema ) and sync sound method.

Remember it's all about the "arbitrage". The TV executive must get interesting series at a much lower price point than the series he currently has with the live actors. Then only he will take interest in series produced with the digital actors. His advertisement rate will be less than the usual, but his cost will be much lower and that earns him better profit.

Doing one or two episodes for Youtube is one thing, but doing 6 episodes per week for an GEC round the year is another. It needs different production planning altogether. This is almost industrial animation production.

You need to follow the scheduling of film making rather than animation. And you would be dealing with a large number of actors.

Ask yourself a simple question : what's the duration of animation can you produce in a day ?

That should define everything.


Prabhat

6 episodes per week, ouch!! I've been stalling because I can't find one idea that i'm willing to invest time in lol - even looking at video games that have space fights for footage haha! I just want to get more music up on youtube without still images, it increases the value of my catalog.

I can certainly appreciate your perspectives, as I can empathize with the challenges of keeping things rolling despite the challenges.

when I see what is getting a ton of views on youtube ...i just do a face palm, and laugh. The music anime music videos I've seen are pretty much brain dead unconnected flashes of light / zooms shakes, with non stop effects and 2 second clips....and I'm trying to figure out a way to make it more than that, without making it so much work I'm not making music anymore.

Anyways, point being - I love your enthusiasm, and your goals, I'm also expressing how iclone has a different feel for everyone because it's such a diverse audience.

We do need everything you guys are saying for the pro route ...but I think it's a matter of evolving the product into a new line geared for the pro........to overwhelm the novice animator is to abandon iclones roots.

so if you are going to cheer for something, cheer for a new pro line of iclone so you don't have to put on kids gloves to deal with us noobs lol ;)

because you don't want one version to be too hard for novices and not sophisticated enough for pros.

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I think the novice/pro distinction is a bit arbitrary. iClone 6 is quite different from It's me. So I think the core users have grown with iClone. iClone has never been super easy, but it has always been versatile.

As far as quality of the produced animation is concerned; that is in everybody's interest. Think sliding feet.

I don't make any money with animation, but I still want a good product. But I don't want the price to be suddenly in the thousands.

Anyway, that is really another topic.

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yeah, that's another point - you can expect the price hike for the pro version, which shouldn't be imposed on the hobbyist / novice either.

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ICLONE almost has everything that a normal animator/director needs. There are few practical issues, but I am sure they will get sorted out in due course.

1) First it must stop crashing
2) Clearcut Frame Rate output ( What You Set What You Get )
3) File naming convention in Image Sequence Rendering ( I am not sure if it has been taken care of in ICLONE6). The File name should carry the Frame number. That means if you are rendering frame 41 to 102, it should render f41,f42...f102. Not like f1,f2,f3 ...etc.). Only guys involved in a collaborative production floor know what problem it can cause.

This is how it was rendered 30 years back in all 3D app ver 1.0

4) Also render per Steps. X2 will half the number of frames. It's good for testing. We can have options like X2,X3,X4,X6...etc

5) My personal interest : Per Object Line thickness and style defination in Toon Shader. That means if I have to set the line width of eye lashes and teeth or other body parts, I must be in a position to define like I do with PER OBJECT COLOUR.


....Anyway, I am just repeating myself....... on this forum.

The first thing that came to mind is, who watches TV anymore?:D
The only thing bankable today are reality tv shows.

Most of these kinds of ideas have been pitched around for a few years. Trying to make productions with low cost, rapid production. Imho they have a shelf life of two years or less. Its not sustainable.
Audiences are picky and have short attention spans. Millions of content on the net go unnoticed. The only thing that do profit sadly is ehem...pink movies.

When I still worked in a studio they started from tv and film production with traditional filmmakers and video editors. They soon shifted their focus on corporate content like commercials, music videos, web ads and more CG effects.
They accepted less work on network tv and film funded projects because the ROI was so little. I came into that transition 8 years ago but the studio existed for more than 30 years but they had to transform to survive. It was a big shock for me knowing how little studios make producing content for tv and film. Its no wonder studios are closing all over the globe.
The studio still exists today and I'm thankful for what they taught me since it opened a lot of doors. Extremely talented and smart people.

Now creating one's content based on original concepts and present them machinima quality to audiences on TV. I don't know how feasible that is. Audience are more picky with their time. Getting funding and resources is extremely difficult.

In contrast, corporate content always pays well. Nike, Apple, Honda, they have the money to spend for a 60 sec commercial, etc. That's where I will use Iclone. Like a motionbuilder lite ;)

But seriously goodluck and hope you succeed. I'm not as brave to try to create original content for mass consumption.

from a psychology standpoint it makes sense to me, the audience is already accustomed to the visuals from their own gaming ...you want those gaming views if you can get em! it's already an emotional attachment in the form of a multi billion dollar industry. You just need to keep in touch with their culture and interests, and you would be surprised at how rich that culture is actually - very intelligent brats!

another interesting thing to analyze - are the most popular games on steam - I was surprised to see how many of them are cheezy old school low graphic looking games - but are intellectually stimulating.

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"To define Tao is to defile it" - Lao Tzu