Altering The Present TV Content Equation With iClone ?

Altering The Present TV Content Equation With iClone ?

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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

I'm starting this thread here following a message I wrote in another thread explaining why, as a professional, with my partner and our company, we are interested in iClone as a production tool:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223535.aspx

And an answer from prabhatM following that message:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223961.aspx

Feel free to participate to this discussion.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

So, me and my partner and as a company we are trying to find a way to setup a new kind of productions that could be seen as "valuable enough" by TV medias so a all new production chain could be started:

Diffusion Wanted by TV --triggers--> Subvention and Financial Support --triggers--> Production.

As prabhatM suggested, a strategy is needed but I think we differ about the right one to adopt.

prabhatM suggest creating a large content library and attack the domain. I have a more viral approach and wouldn't mind many me-too productions, at least this would raise the visibility of such productions.

Perhaps both are valid anyway so it may be just a matter of preference or resources.

We, at radfac productions, we do not have the resources to create a large content library so we have no choice but to attempt the viral strategy.

The challenge here is of two kinds:

1) The Content: Proposing something we are not used to see on TV. Currently, "animations" are reserved to children/cartoon type of productions. We want to create something more like current TV series, but in 3D. Our goal is not to do 'cartoonish' animation, we are targeting mocap instead because our goal is not to show off our animation skills but to produce addictive story tellings with realistic renderings and believable animations.

2) The Making: Adopting a new kind of production workflow, by adopting the "machinima" idea. that is, instead of using "heavy" machinery of high-end 3D tools we would like to use "machinima" tools which would help us to produce the images as fast as possible but without compromising the final quality. We don't target "PBR" (Physically Based Rendering) though but what we call "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" instead. We are more interested in the working ambiance of a shot instead of its accuracy in terms of realism.

In that spirit, we need proper tools. The closest tool we discovered so far having the needed features to attempt such a journey is iClone. But it has his flaws too and we are trying to find workarounds, tricks, trying to push Reallusion to fix/add the 'little' things we need to achieve our goals.

Here is where we are: experimenting. We already have everything else, series concepts, story lines, etc..

We just need to find the right ways, with iClone, to get to a level that would be accepted by TV standards.

Then, the quest for an audience will begin.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

Having worked with iClone for a while now, I am attracted to a sort of semi-realistic approach.

There are those that are really good it this (I like the work from Mark of Small W Studios), and I find them inspiring in showing what can be done with primarily iClone.

I also believe that iClone productions can have a lot of personality, and that it is possible to develop an individual style.

The question of course after all is said and done is how to distribute and find an audience. TV in particular seems to be a medium that is very much set in its ways.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Thanks for starting this thread.

I moved away from animation for 25-30 years or so and a year back renewed my interest. In India the industry now has matured and become very competitive. Many Indian studios do global delivery now. Speilberg's Dreamwork Studio is now co-owned and financed by an Indian industrialist. So the industry is now led by the guys with deep pockets.

While thinking about the industry, I realised only way to survive and thrive in the industry is to maintain a decent quality but producing at 50% of the regular market cost. That's where ICLONE comes in as a strategic tool.

But since my immediate need is Toon Shader, I will wait for ICLONE to mature in that segment. But that's okay. One could use the time preparing the scripts, doing the audio productions and developing the basic models / characters. I use DAZ for all my character development.

I am glad ICLONE started incorporating Cloth and hair animation. These two features will add tremendous value to the animation in the segment I am working.

This is about just feeding the "regular animated content" for the animation segment on the TV channels.

I have also been thinking and testing the idea that you have been dabbling - producing the regular serials with digital actors and targeting the GEC.

This is only possible if you think along the line of Avatar or Speilberg's Tintin. We can't achieve that kind of production quality, but one has to bring in the similar level of believality with characters, locations and storyline.

Cry / Unreal level of rendering and facial animation will hold the attention.

You also need to produce animations quickly, like the serials are canned on daily basis. Perhaps we need to go back to the cinema methods of 1960's ( direct cinema ) and sync sound method.

Remember it's all about the "arbitrage". The TV executive must get interesting series at a much lower price point than the series he currently has with the live actors. Then only he will take interest in series produced with the digital actors. His advertisement rate will be less than the usual, but his cost will be much lower and that earns him better profit.

Doing one or two episodes for Youtube is one thing, but doing 6 episodes per week for an GEC round the year is another. It needs different production planning altogether. This is almost industrial animation production.

You need to follow the scheduling of film making rather than animation. And you would be dealing with a large number of actors.

Ask yourself a simple question : what's the duration of animation can you produce in a day ?

That should define everything.

Prabhat

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

6 episodes per week, ouch!! I've been stalling because I can't find one idea that i'm willing to invest time in lol - even looking at video games that have space fights for footage haha! I just want to get more music up on youtube without still images, it increases the value of my catalog.

I can certainly appreciate your perspectives, as I can empathize with the challenges of keeping things rolling despite the challenges.

when I see what is getting a ton of views on youtube ...i just do a face palm, and laugh. The music anime music videos I've seen are pretty much brain dead unconnected flashes of light / zooms shakes, with non stop effects and 2 second clips....and I'm trying to figure out a way to make it more than that, without making it so much work I'm not making music anymore.

Anyways, point being - I love your enthusiasm, and your goals, I'm also expressing how iclone has a different feel for everyone because it's such a diverse audience.

We do need everything you guys are saying for the pro route ...but I think it's a matter of evolving the product into a new line geared for the pro........to overwhelm the novice animator is to abandon iclones roots.

so if you are going to cheer for something, cheer for a new pro line of iclone so you don't have to put on kids gloves to deal with us noobs lol ;)

because you don't want one version to be too hard for novices and not sophisticated enough for pros.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

I think the novice/pro distinction is a bit arbitrary. iClone 6 is quite different from It's me. So I think the core users have grown with iClone. iClone has never been super easy, but it has always been versatile.

As far as quality of the produced animation is concerned; that is in everybody's interest. Think sliding feet.

I don't make any money with animation, but I still want a good product. But I don't want the price to be suddenly in the thousands.

Anyway, that is really another topic.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

yeah, that's another point - you can expect the price hike for the pro version, which shouldn't be imposed on the hobbyist / novice either.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

ICLONE almost has everything that a normal animator/director needs. There are few practical issues, but I am sure they will get sorted out in due course.

1) First it must stop crashing
2) Clearcut Frame Rate output ( What You Set What You Get )
3) File naming convention in Image Sequence Rendering ( I am not sure if it has been taken care of in ICLONE6). The File name should carry the Frame number. That means if you are rendering frame 41 to 102, it should render f41,f42...f102. Not like f1,f2,f3 ...etc.). Only guys involved in a collaborative production floor know what problem it can cause.

This is how it was rendered 30 years back in all 3D app ver 1.0

4) Also render per Steps. X2 will half the number of frames. It's good for testing. We can have options like X2,X3,X4,X6...etc

5) My personal interest : Per Object Line thickness and style defination in Toon Shader. That means if I have to set the line width of eye lashes and teeth or other body parts, I must be in a position to define like I do with PER OBJECT COLOUR.

....Anyway, I am just repeating myself....... on this forum.

By hattori kun - 11 Years Ago

The first thing that came to mind is, who watches TV anymore?:D
The only thing bankable today are reality tv shows.

Most of these kinds of ideas have been pitched around for a few years. Trying to make productions with low cost, rapid production. Imho they have a shelf life of two years or less. Its not sustainable.
Audiences are picky and have short attention spans. Millions of content on the net go unnoticed. The only thing that do profit sadly is ehem...pink movies.

When I still worked in a studio they started from tv and film production with traditional filmmakers and video editors. They soon shifted their focus on corporate content like commercials, music videos, web ads and more CG effects.
They accepted less work on network tv and film funded projects because the ROI was so little. I came into that transition 8 years ago but the studio existed for more than 30 years but they had to transform to survive. It was a big shock for me knowing how little studios make producing content for tv and film. Its no wonder studios are closing all over the globe.
The studio still exists today and I'm thankful for what they taught me since it opened a lot of doors. Extremely talented and smart people.

Now creating one's content based on original concepts and present them machinima quality to audiences on TV. I don't know how feasible that is. Audience are more picky with their time. Getting funding and resources is extremely difficult.

In contrast, corporate content always pays well. Nike, Apple, Honda, they have the money to spend for a 60 sec commercial, etc. That's where I will use Iclone. Like a motionbuilder lite ;)

But seriously goodluck and hope you succeed. I'm not as brave to try to create original content for mass consumption.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

from a psychology standpoint it makes sense to me, the audience is already accustomed to the visuals from their own gaming ...you want those gaming views if you can get em! it's already an emotional attachment in the form of a multi billion dollar industry. You just need to keep in touch with their culture and interests, and you would be surprised at how rich that culture is actually - very intelligent brats!

another interesting thing to analyze - are the most popular games on steam - I was surprised to see how many of them are cheezy old school low graphic looking games - but are intellectually stimulating.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

hattori kun (2/6/2015)

You are absolutely right.

But like fashion, it's cyclic. One needs to plan for the next Inflex Point.

In India, most of the Movie halls became Godown in ninties. Mostly we produced B Grade movies. Then one guy started the Multiplex that charged 5 times and gave a different experience. Suddenly we had multiplex all over the country and we started producing mega films. The movie business became really big.

We had one Govt. owned channel, the TV actors were poor and looked down upon. Now we have few hundred channels and TV actors are stars !

In India, 90% women are housewives, even the well qualified ones. So the TV mostly caters to them.

It's not the idea per se. It's the real execution that can set it apart.

Also I would be careful with the subjects I choose.

Just for an example, I have a series for the teens in mind. The actors would be fashion conscious. Can my digital actors set the seasonal fashion trends amongst the teens ? :)

( And how could I do great fashion without cloth and hair simulation ???;) I am glad we have a great software like Marvelous Designer with which you could make clothes in minutes and hours or days.:D )

So it's not just the low cost. It has to be the content well packaged.

By mark - 11 Years Ago

"...what we call "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" instead. We are more interested in the working ambiance of a shot instead of its accuracy in terms of realism...."

That sums up my animated doodlings very well I think!:D

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

mark (2/6/2015)

Plausible Realistic Based Rendering : Interesting.
Infact that should be enough our kind of work. In that sense ICLONE's "internal rendering PLUS" should do.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@prabhatM

In terms of digital actor quality I don't think we need to reach Avatar or Speilberg's Tintin to get interest.

We simply need something that "works". By that I mean, old school cartoon characters do express emotions despite their graphic simplicity, nowadays game cinematic ones often don't - and look like zombie - despite their relative high level of technology.

On the 3d cartoonish side you can have a look at "End Of The Line" made with SFM (Source Film Maker) to see something that "works". On the realistic side, I don't have reference yet (aside VFX ones) and I think this is where the challenge starts, but I firmly believe this is possible. It is a question of balance between the graphics and the animations.

Regarding the animations, our plan is to target full mocap and limit the motion editing in iClone. What makes most mocap fake is the lack of finger animation. But what is promising is the NoItom system and the fact that Reallusion has interest in it. I have great expectations about that. With such a system you can produce a lot of animation time per day compared to nowadays movies (2 to 3 sec a day per animator) or TV series (7/8 sec, sometimes more, a day per animator). Game cinematics have solved the locomotion issues with mocap, they do produce believable locomotion (and animation in general, except for facial). So, to me, the challenge is more on the facial animation. The locomotion and other animations are just a matter of setting up a mocap system right.

@mark

Yes, and that shows in your productions. I love the atmospheres you put in there, that is totally the spirit.

@prabhatM

Yes we just need iClone+ : ) And this does not mean a "heavy" version.

Just a iClone 6 version with all the "little" things and details that need to be fixed regarding the internal renderer and workflow.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

WoW!! 10 years I'm waiting for this kind of thread!!! :)
The first I thougt about making movie or serie with realtime because of this:

It was made in 2006!!!!!!!
Common guys! imagine a series or movie in this quality and ambiance!!!

Next week , I'm talking with a producer and a scenarist to see the possibility to make funny
pedagogical short for little kids. In my country there's some public subsidy for this kind of project
mixing techno and creations. For now the only missing things for is the Neuron perception tools.
But I've really no problem today with the realtime render of Iclone 6. Same quality as Gear of war...

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

All of this was made in realtime . No ray-trace render. The only difference with Iclone :
Stunning particules effect. But all are low-poly, texture are extremly details, direction of the shots are movie-like.... Imagine a serie like this!! :)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@mtakerkart

I firmly believe we can do much better than this, even with iClone, granted we get the "little" things we need.

What I don't like in these videos is the "gamish look", that we also often get even with recent games. It is not a technical issue, but mostly an artistic decision or direction. It seems there is some kind of tradition in the game industry to maintain this "gamish look" even with the technologies we have today.

What I'm interested in is "cinematography" not games cinematics. And by that I mean I'm not trying to get the final images look out of the renderer, but to get the proper "informations" from the renderer (similarly from a movie camera) so I can color grade and finalize the image look inside a compositing software such as HitFilm, because others FX than those provided by the 3D renderer need to be included anyway, aside the "look" itself. So this is a different approach than doing realtime games cinematics.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

It is instructive, I find, to show your movies to "ordinary" people, not geeks like us.

The first time I did that was several years ago with an iClone 4 movie for a group in their late 50s, early 60s (my age...). They actually liked the "game" look as it made them connect to their children, somehow.

Recently I had the pleasure to show my latest iClone 5 movie for a few young teachers (late 20s and 30s) and they liked it as well. They were more vocal during the program, so it gave me an idea whether the little elements I put in (a walk, a way of dressing, etc.) actually worked.

I look forward to what comes of this discussion.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

Here is a list of the "little" things I believe we need to achieve this "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" approach:

1) Linear Workflow

As explained in another thread, we need a proper linear workflow, this is mandatory. Either built-in in iClone - that would be ideal - or by simulating it.

Simulating a linear workflow would do, albeit it would involve much more work, but this is not even really possible to currently simulate it properly in iClone.

What do we need to simulate it ?

a) Using linear textures.
This, we can do, because iClone support OpenEXR. So we can create a version of each asset referencing linear textures, that is textures that have been linearized by applying a sRGB -> Linear conversion, or even simply a ~0.45 gamma correction. But the result has to be saved in a high resolution file format (in terms of color channel values, not image size) or else you loose informations in low intensity/shadow areas. OpenEXR is perfect for this.

b) Linearize all color values.
Cumbersome but doable.

c) Apply a Linear -> sRGB conversion to the rendered images.
And here is the problem. There is no way to currently do this conversion in iClone prior saving the rendered images. And iClone does not support OpenEXR as a format usable for image sequences renderings.

What we would need here is either:
c1) An image filter with gamma correction (or even better a sRGB conversion switch).
c2) The support for OpenEXR file format for saving image sequences.

Either one would do.

So here, we have our first show stopper. Currently, saving linear images in a 8bit file format (png,jpg,..) is a no-go, as too much informations are lost and you get banding artifacts in low intensity/shadows areas when you do the sRGB conversion on this files.

2) Whether we get native Linear Workflow or we simulate it, we need proper light attenuation.

We simply need "natural" light attenuation and this mean attenuation based on the inverse square law. If you use the current linear light attenuation provided by iClone and do a sRGB conversion on the final image, you get beams of lights that "suddenly" stop with harsh limits. This is a no-go too, a show stopper for proper lighting in the context of a linear workflow.

So we have at least 2 show stoppers that currently forbid us to implement our approach. Those two issues are nonetheless "small" because from a developer point of view these can be easily fixed/implemented. This is not heavy work at all.

@animagic

I have no doubt some peoples like the gamish look, and I have no doubt some other peoples like the cinematographic look. I even have the feeling that some of the same peoples like both. No issue with that.

There is room for both and even for cartoonish look that prabhatM is after.

I admit I said the cinematographic look is better than the gamish look but this is indeed a personal opinion and this is what I'm after, because I believe the gamish look is more limited than the cinematographic look.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

I've posted a lot of messages regarding the rendering side of the journey and not much regarding the animation side.

Probably because the rendering issues are the most frustrating as they are due to technical issues that could easily be addressed.

The animation side is certainly more challenging and probably more exciting. There are some technical issues as well but the challenge is mostly on "our" side, I would say, because I believe a proper methodology needs to be invented and set in order to accomplish "believable" animations, especially in the facial animation area.

On the animation side, I'm much more satisfied by Reallusion direction and by the work done on the latest iClone version.

One thing is the great improvement of morphs interpolation. Another thing is the Reallusion interest in the NoItom devices for mocap, and the third thing is the announced improvement regarding HumanIK and MixMoves with improved Locomotion system.

The switch to PhysX is very good and the current SoftCloth system allows for "plausible" secondary animations on clothes and hairs.

In all, those are very good features and news.

No show stopper that I can see here, we just have to wait a bit for the mocap system and the improved locomotion system.

Regarding the NoItom mocap system, aside its low cost, what I expect the most is the ability to capture the full body including the fingers. Having fingers animations from mocap make a all difference between a fake and a "plausible" full body animation result.

All in all, the animation side is very promising and very exciting.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

Guy, I THINK I understand would you mean by the distinction between a "gamish" and a "cinematographic" look, but could you give visual examples (realized with 3D animation) that clarify that further?

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

Games usually have over-saturated colors and to much contrast.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

but could you give visual examples (realized with 3D animation) that clarify that further?

Yes , I second!

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

1) I have a reason why I specifically mentioned these two i.e. Avatar and Tintin. If you want to raid the GEC time slot with some meaningful impact, then you must target atleast 5-10% of the content air time. To grab that kind of eye ball, you need Fantasy adventures like Avatar. But to be acceptable as a producer of mainstream content with digital actors, you need to create content with believable normal look of Tintin characters, locations, ambience and screenplays. Avoid cartoony characters as much possible.

2) RENDERING : I would be happy with what we see in CRY / Unreal engines or in SFM these days. Luminous Studio engine kinda look would be great.

3) Getting Priorities right : If you really want to target the GEC's with your Digital Actors, then focus on the TIME LINE rather than linearizing your production. It can come later.

So Body and Facial Motion Capture system, Sync Sound ( now I value Mimic Live of DAZ to some extend ), efficient asset creation tool must get your priority.

I have nothing against the Linearization. But when you focus on issues like that, you are sure to get stuck up with your delivery. And to me delivery matters if you are to be counted in the main line production system. I prefer a guy with knowledge of EXCEL as the Head of Delivery.

DAZ characters, ICLONE humanIK, Motion Builder, neuron or even kinect with multi actor capture system should be adequate to get going.

The key is SPEED.

4) Voice Acting : If you are targeting the GEC's with episodes on daily basis, one needs to hone the skill of managing the Voice Acting. You may use Radio / Stage artists for that. In India, even the dubbing artists ( any language ) have become very busy. They now charge extremely high for the dubbing. So the cost of facial animation capture is going to be pretty expensive.

I am yet to finalise if I must use the Pre-recorded voice or live voice on a facial motion capture system.

Note :

1) I would love to have a direct ICLONE Pipeline with After Effect. I don't know why RL does not think of this. It would get them noticed. Taking ICLONE scene to AE, use the pixel oriented special effects and then render in AE. I tested 2000 CLONED DAZ characters dancing in AE !

2) When I had tested ICLONE 5.5, it was really poor handling a large scene with large number of assets. I desperately needed it to handle CITY LEVEL ASSETS / Large environment like a Game engine. I am not sure if they have worked on it in ICLONE 6.

3) When I say SPEED, it does not mean I encourage compromising the quality. The Quality is an intrinsic promise.

4) Last but not the least : It may not be a small indie operation if you want to MAKE MONEY. Else be happy with the Youtube videos which may not be such a bad idea with some advertising money filtering through.

By mark - 11 Years Ago

When I had tested ICLONE 5.5, it was really poor handling a large scene with large number of assets. I desperately needed it to handle CITY LEVEL ASSETS / Large environment like a Game engine. I am not sure if they have worked on it in ICLONE 7.

Project size is always an issue I'm sure. The largest project I did in iC5 came in at 353 Megs "Midway of Mysteries" I was able to do it but things got real sluggish. Quick Shading was a God-Send! Of course I'm not real good at managing my resources that's for sure.:D

It seems to run much slower in iC6 and I guess that's to be expected. ;)

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (2/6/2015)

4) Last but not the least : It may not be a small indie operation if you want to MAKE MONEY. Else be happy with the Youtube videos which may not be such a bad idea with some advertising money filtering through.

MCN Maker Studios said at MIPTV that of its 380 million subscribers on YouTube, 80% are aged 13-34, with 40% watching on mobile devices. This demographic is creating equally youthful stars from within. "Fans, hobbyists, creators are the new publishers, and they are the new distribution," said René Rechtman, Maker's international president. That was clear from the series of "Digital Fronts" sessions at MIPTV, designed to highlight popular shows, channels and personalities from the online video world. They included British twins Finn and Jack Harries, who have 3.4 million subscribers to their travelogues channel, and a new series about riding rickshaws across India that attracted sponsorship from Skype and Sony.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/13/miptv-conference-multichannel-networks-mcns-youtube-tv-cannes

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

animagic (2/6/2015)

Guy, ITHINK I understand would you mean bythe distinction between a "gamish" and a "cinematographic" look, but could you give visual examples (realized with 3D animation) that clarify that further?

Well, here are two pictures for comparison.

The first one is an attempt I made in 2010 to get that cinematographic look I wanted out of iClone. It is far from being perfect and not as cinematographic as I wanted but I think it shows the intention enough.

I didn't even tried to use a linear workflow at that time, because of the banding artifacts that would have resulted simulating it (and it was iClone4), but I used multi-passes rendering to help:

The second one is a screenshot from GoW from the video posted by mtakerkart, and has what I consider to be a "gamish" look, more of a painting look if you prefer.

In terms of content I'm not saying the first one is better than the second one, but I think the difference in terms of look or intent is quite noticeable.

Now, you may prefer the look of the second one, I'm perfectly ok with that. It's a matter of personal preference and we, at radfac productions, we prefer going for the cinematographic look. But I welcome everyone having projects with the "gamish" look in mind.

I don't want this thread to turn into a cinematographic vs gamish look war, that's not the point. The point is to achieve a look that tends to be "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" and in that sense, both looks are valid.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

that looks like something you do in post / hitfilm / after affects or davinci ...which has a free version btw... https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/7/2015)

that looks like something you do in post / hitfilm / after affects or davinci ...which has a free version btw... https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve

Indeed, as stated here:

grabiller (2/6/2015)

../..What I'm interested in is "cinematography" not games cinematics. And by that I mean I'm not trying to get the final images look out of the renderer, but to get the proper "informations" from the renderer (similarly from a movie camera) so I can color grade and finalize the image look inside a compositing software such as HitFilm, because other FXs than those provided by the 3D renderer need to be included anyway, aside the "look" itself. So this is a different approach than doing realtime games cinematics.

DaVinci is certainly a must in terms of Color Grading applications but it does not do FX. It is free but if you want to deal with film grain you will have to pay for the full version which is not that cheap for Indies (~1000$).

What I like about HitFilm, despite its price, is its 3 purposes in one: Editing (still rough but you can do some quite nice editing in there), FXs (lot of nice and efficient plugins included you would have to pay a lot more than the software itself using other FX applications), Color Grading (despite the lack of proper histograms and vectorscopes but I think they will enhance this area soon).

HitFilm is perfect imho for Indie projects pushing the limits while having tight budgets.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

mark (2/7/2015)

../.. It seems to run much slower in iC6 and I guess that's to be expected. ;)

One thing I've noticed with iClone6 is the huge gain in terms of interface response and speed when you have several materials having reflection and when you just disable "Environment Reflection" from the preference settings.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@prabhatM

1) Well, I still think there is room between what we currently get from iClone and the "Tintin level" to be acceptable. There are no clear receipt here though, and I think we will have to propose, and the audience will judge. It is certainly an iterative process until we get the right balance where the audience forget about the graphics and get addicted to the atmosphere, the story and digital actor performances. In fact, to me, the goal with this "Plausible Realistic Based Rendering" idea is more to produce images good enough that won't distract the audience from the intended atmosphere, the story or the performance. Then if we can make those images even more beautiful that would be ideal of course.

2) Fair enough.

3) Well, first, technical and artistic solutions must be found to answer our primary goal, but, I agree, with time line in mind, and I always have that in mind because at first, this was my initial preoccupation compared to the "classic" productions I've been working on with so much time wasted in details. The key is speed, yes, but speed with the achievement of the intended results.

4) This is an interesting subject. Regarding the voices only, usually you record a first performance with voice artists, the result is then used for animation, then the voice artists will record their final performance while seeing the final animation.

On our side we have chosen for now - because of our limited resources - to only record voice artists performances once. Regarding the costs, there are several websites of voice artists pools in US and in Canada outside of Unions. Which means the prices are pretty attractive like $400 an hour. You can record a lot in 1 hour if you are well prepared.

Regarding facial performances, this is something we put a lot of thinking and we have finally chosen - again at least for now - to setup and try a layered puppeteer based system instead where you record several "layers" of categories of facial expressions one on top of the previous one. This is experimental of course, we have yet to provide convincing results. Using actors and a facial motion capture system would be prohibitive for us, at least for now.

Regarding your notes:

1) I would rather prefer a direct iClone pipeline with HitFilm ;) because to me After Effect is not part of the Indie tools category. But having iClone supporting AE (and Hitfilm) would be great nonetheless, indeed. Perhaps 3DXchange6 will support this ? Who knows.

2) Yes I think we need the support of instances in iClone. That would be great. Meanwhile, the good old way of doing this by creating and rendering multiple scenes is still valid yes.

3) Absolutely.

4) You are right. This is what we have in mind anyway, we would like TVs to be interested in this kind of productions because it would be the "easy" way. If TVs are interested, then it is quite easy to get subventions and financial support, then the production can start. But, and I agree, there are probably other ways to make a living of it but that means you have to first finance the production then see if you get money of it - that is a huge risk - while with TVs, you get financed to produce the project, then whether it finds an audience or not is not your concern anymore because you already get paid (well of course that would be an issue for a second project if the first one does not work, but at least the risk, at first, is minimal). That said, we also plan on crowd funding to ease the start. But until then we have first to show something that "works", a proof of concept.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

well if you end up attracting the gaming audience, they are trained to appreciate in depth story lines - especially from today's games.....so you can cut back to gaming graphics with them, but don't cut corners on the story ....I know this, I'm one of the gamers, I hang out with em daily They are the ones I'm trying to cater to as well on the music side - they are more into artistic than realistic .... and I'm not trying to make music they like, I'm trying to present music I like in a way they can appreciate.

Here's a glimpse of what that community likes artistically -

This link is to a forum community corner where they make art for each other - in fact some have turned it into a business by selling their art for game currency.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/community/creations

This is the kind of crowd that you would most likely attract - I do a ton of research on this stuff - I wanted to find an audience that liked the same things I like so I could enjoy my work....and these are my people! lol :) ( also check out the league of legends forum and world of warcraft ) - they constantly move around...

it should also be noted that they are numb to realistic renders by now, because so many "realistic render games" were crap storylines and they hated it ...no matter how "amazing" the graphics were. They will boycott your game if you give them eye candy and no challenge / story to follow. It's known as "end game" - if your end game is weak, game over.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@planetstardragon

Being a gamer does not mean you prefer "gamish" look over "cinematographic" look. On the contrary from my observations.

Around 2000, I had my "hard core" gaming period, playing Quake 3, having a "Clan" and doing CTF competition on the now defunct english "Barrysworld" League. That didn't mean I preferred the Quake 3 look over the movies look, and this is still valid today. I still have hardcore gamer friends who still, in 2015, dream about having a cinematographic look in their games instead of the traditional gamish look even by the nowadays quality standard of game engines.

Gamers can sell gaming arts to each others, no problem with that, and if it does not look "cinematographic" it is just because they don't know how to do better or because it is simply not needed as long as they match the original game look. Some artists know how to do better (and sell), you just have to be in the right forum(s).

So this is a non-issue.

Yet I'm not trying to attract a specific community, I'm just trying to create quality story telling through cinematography. It does not mean I will succeed, but at least I'm trying.

But I wont compromise the quality under the false pretext of being "fun, artist and myself". I want the maximum possible quality I can achieve, as to me, this is showing some respect to the audience.

I'm not trying to throw my ego at them, I'm not trying to trick a specific audience or community, I'm not telling them: "Eat and swallow this crap, this is me, myself and I being fun and artist! Enjoy!".

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

@Planet

The Gamers are a different breed. They will always be restless watching a long linear storyline.
We are talking about the mainline TV audience.

@Grabiller

When I talk about TinTin, it's not so about the Quality 3d Models. It's the kind of look and the essence. In Tintin, almost all characters act like characters in any NORMAL movie, not very dramatic or exaggerated.

The whole movie could be passed as a any other normal movie. The difference is that they are all digital characters but with detailed human expressions and mannerism.

Strive for that.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

it's really not a matter of preference, as it is a mater of "focus" - they don't focus on the shiny aspects as much as they do on the intellectual / innovative aspects. They've seen everything already. Nothing wrong with having best quality at all, the less "distractions" the better, and if you can't get the best quality, stay consistent as to not cause a distraction. Minecraft has a consistent look, but it's surely not high definition.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (2/7/2015)../..@Grabiller

When I talk about TinTin, it's not so about the Quality 3d Models. It's the kind of look and the essence. In Tintin, almost all characters act like characters in any NORMAL movie, not very dramatic or exaggerated.

The whole movie could be passed as a any other normal movie. The difference is that they are all digital characters but with detailed human expressions and mannerism.

Strive for that.

Right, sorry for my misunderstanding.

I totally agree with you then. The key is in expressiveness and indeed how successfully the digital actors will convey emotions to the audience.

This is indeed the main challenge and the most exciting one to me.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

Quake ? :ermm:

u got some catching up to do...

http://store.steampowered.com/app/221100/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

@grabiller

The kind of projects you are planning, I guess face mocap is critical.

You are planning to have ICLONE as the anchor tool.

Is there any way to bring facial mocap to Iclone ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (2/8/2015)

@grabiller

The kind of projects you are planning, I guess face mocap is critical.

You are planning to have ICLONE as the anchor tool.

Is there any way to bring facial mocap to Iclone ?

I'm not sure yet facial mocap is critical for this kind of projects. For now we have chosen to setup and experiment the puppeteer approach and we would like to extensively research in that area prior 'going back', eventually, to facial mocap if that puppeteer approach really does not work.

The reason we chose to experiment with puppeteer instead of facial mocap - beside the fact it would potentially be cheaper - is that it would give us more flexibility. If something needs to be changed, we wouldn't have to callback the facial performance actor and setup a new capture session for instance. Also, if we setup something that works, then we could capitalize on it and apply it to a lot of other things, not only "facial" animation.

Perhaps I'm dreaming and it won't work at all, or perhaps we will have something in-between, something that really does not work for facial but works for the rest. But on this I don't want to give up until we really tried hard, because if it works it would really be a major advantage to us.

That said, your question is nonetheless very valid on how to bring mocap into iClone (I've intentionally omitted 'facial'). And it is valid on our side even if we success in puppeteering.

1) Generic Mocap (Animation Intentions Ingestion)

Usually we talk about mocap for two things: Full body performance mocap and facial performance mocap. But there is another area that is totally omitted from the discussion, even by Reallusion: puppeteering performance mocap.

Puppeteering with a mouse is nice for marketing but in practice it is not very practical. What I would like, for instance, is to be able to use a full hand NoItom mocap setup to drive the "Motion Puppet", "Direct Puppet", "Face Puppet", etc.. And to be able to precisely map any 'input' to any 'output', this is the key for proper puppeteering.

What I'm affraid of is that Reallusion will provide 'hardcoded' solution/plugins for NoItom mocap or even perhaps some facial mocap system that works with standard or non standard characters but that we won't be able to 'redirect' the mocap inputs to whatever 'channels' we want.

What I would like to see is something like the Avatar Toolkit but with even more flexibility where you can map any 'input' (mocap, mouse, keyboard keys, joysticks, game pads, why not midi/osc inputs, etc..) to any 'outputs' (morph, but also hierarchical virtual morphs - that is you create a custom slider that drive several morphs, and you can create a hierarchy of those virtual sliders etc.. -, etc..) through custom 'mapping interfaces', that is graphical panels we could create our self in photoshop or whatever (after all its just a way to define the motion zones of the input devices). I have a very precise view of what would be such a system and how it could be used. This would give us puppeteering to a power of 10 or 100.

After all the key in puppeteering is to adequately 'translate' the animator 'intentions' into animations. Just a mouse and some limited preset is not enough obviously. The animator should be able to configure its own system of 'intentions ingestion', the one he feels the more comfortable and expressive with.

2) Morphs Protocol (FACS)

In iClone the facial expressions are currently done through morphs and this is probably the standard way in the 3d movie industry too even if it exists alternate bones/deformers based systems. But for the sake of the discussion, let say each 'expression' created with either system is called a 'morph'.

At first, you have to get a set of 'morphs' to be able to get any expression out of your character, 'base' morphs that will be usually created by a modeler artist by deforming/sculpting the base face (through his modeler tool, zbrush, etc..).

But in our indie world of tools it is quite a mess because no 'protocol' - no 'standard' - has been explicitly adopted to define exactly which 'base' morphs and how many need to be created.

'Visemes' ? 'Sad' ? 'Happy' ? 'Lips Up' (but with which muscle ?) ? None of them. Those are production morphs, not 'base' morphs. And the problem with those 'production' morphs is that no one is really agree on which one to create/use exactly. Check the visemes differences between iClone and Daz for instance.

There must be something more basic on which everybody could be agree and from which any 'production' morphs could be created. That something exists: it is called 'FACS' or Facial Action Coding System. It has been invented by Paul Ekman and simply put it is a inventory of all muscles motions a human face can do. Those 'basic' motions are called Action Units.

This, everyone can be agree because it is based on face muscles, so there is nothing to discuss about the choice of the shapes. Everything becomes clearer because a modeler now only has the responsibility to create the hundred or so of morph shapes. In practice, and in high-end productions such as for Gollum, King Kong, Apes in PotA, Tintin, etc.. they created up to 700 or 800 shapes because there are transition shapes that sometimes must be created, and correction shapes for skin deformations with some combinations. But this is very high-end stuff, we don't need that. The point here, is that we need a way to classify and organize our morph libraries, or else it becomes a mess very quickly.

Once you have your base FACS morphs then you can create your visemes, expressions, etc.. by combining hierarchically the base morphs.

This sound complicated but in fact it is quite simple. A library of FACS AU morphs, a way to combine them (we already have a limited system for this in iClone, it just needs to be extended a bit to give us more flexibility and customization.).

But what the link between FACS and your initial question ?

A facial mocap systems may ouput FACS informations instead of RAW facial point displacement. That makes sense. If you think about it, a facial mocap system needs to deform your face somehow, but how ? Does it means you will have to create another custom 'rig' on your face on top of the iClone system and morphs in order to get facial performances transposed onto your character face ?

It rather makes sense for a facial mocap system to 'speak' the same 'protocol' as the overall morphs/FACS/facial expression system.

And the benefit of this is that a puppeteering system such the one I was talking above could also 'speak' FACS..

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

Speaking of the devil.. ;)
MACHINIMA IN HOLLYWOOD ?

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

oh wow, so a good story IS more important than the paper is written on!

I've been trying to tell you that ...there is no such thing as an EZ story button....

Iclone looks better than that, it took someone with a quake engine to go hollywood

now what extra gizmos and gadgets did you need for your friends to notice you ?!

a good idea!

Amuse me!

Still waiting!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/27/2015)

Like I'm not aware a good story is important ;)

Still trying to break opened doors huh ?

The thing is, when you tell stories with images and sounds, the story itself is not enough.

If I only wanted to create good stories, I would have been a writer.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

I wonder if there is a similar thing to FACS for basic movement. Things like different walks, jumps, turns. Probably good to break it down to walking/navigating locomotion, etc.

I have been collecting BVH files (from Trailerspark) that are basically different turns, like turn 45 degrees right, turn 90 degrees left, etc.

I know that Bigboss created some motion packs for basic navigation. Not sure if he has turn-in-place motions or not.

If you plan to do mocap for the body, this may be a non-issue.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Just a quick observation.

Getting any show on to tv is hard work for machinema based animations but NETFLIX is a different story, currently NETFLIX has red and blue based around Halo and plankton invasion made with messiah studio, both never made it to tv I dont think but proved popular on Netflix.

Infact netflix has a wide range of animations that look to be either test animations by up and comming animators like LARVA or Just odd ball anims.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

it all comes down to numbers, advertising and merchandising.

if you gain a big enough following of viewers, you are worth money. it's really that simple.
that's what made minecraft a movie.

how do you gain tons of viewers ? a good story.

The industry wants you to round up people, so they can advertise to them. Anything beyond that is a trend.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Mindcrafts a movie ? @&£)@&£ ! I can bearly grab the concept of it as a game..

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

yyyyep! http://screenrant.com/minecraft-video-game-movie/

the value of any viable form of industrial entertainment is to generate sales. Cultural value is just a by-product in that commercialized arena. They will put Miley Cyrus in rubber shorts that fit way to tight if they have to, to make a sale.

It's in the roots of music - recorded music was created to generate sales of electronics. Movies and television are no different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA

Making entertainment with Gamer footage is a logical evolution because we have a generation of Video gamers that can relate to this style of entertainment and are future shoppers.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

My grandson plays the game, when he's not playing the game he is watching some one playing the game now there is a film ..... Talk about synergy ... The animated series will follow and over what ? A game that wouldn't look out of place on my old zx spectrum ... I mean I'm all about retro but there is a limit.

Pong the movie ... ££££££:P

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/27/2015)
Pong the movie ... ££££££:P

if you could come up with a good story, and explain pong as the grandfather of modern gaming in a way a next gen gamer can relate.....you have a family hit idea there.

There is a science to this, and it's not in the linear workflow! :satisfied:

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Got it !
Ping goes on a bloody rampage over pong getting all the credit ...:P

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

i was there and saw what happened....

they use to be one, but then ping thought he was superior and wanted a split....Pong was offended by this and wanted 60 percent of the family line...the rest is history, it's a sad story about a family divided by greed. :crying:

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/27/2015)

Why not ? Not far from the pong graphics: ;)

But what PSD does not realize with his "good story is enough" great myth is that he implicitly consider the result will be of "good quality enough" too. If the lines of the "Alinéa"(above) were not antialiased, or there were something wrong elsewhere, it wouldn't had reached the TV in the first place. A Mindcraft movie with crappy images wouldn't reach the theaters either.

It is this implicitly "good quality" he does not realize it is not "automatic", and that at first there are technical issues to solve to reach the chosen quality/design, whatever the story, whatever the style of a production.

And these technical issues are addressed with the used tools.

Once he will get that, he will understand that "a good story" is not enough, far from it.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

a good story is a good song, is a good advertisement, is a good book, is a good wise tale, is a good movie, is a good ballad is a good dance song...

what you FAIL to see is that these 'good' stories can be remixed over and over and over again, and never get old.

I can appreciate the professional point of delivering a clear product, but not to the extreme of polishing pure air. This is why there is so much garbage and big animation houses are failing, people mistake the technical for the hit. Nothing can be further from the truth. A good story is one remix away from fame...again ...and again...and again.

if you have no passion for the stories you tell, we the fans will notice this!! The fans are the ones that enable corporations to exist.

A family divided by greed is a very old story.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@PSD
So what difference do you make between a good story and a good movie ?

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

a good story is what warms your heart, a good movie is the vehicle that tells the Brain it's ok to open your heart.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

a good story transcends it's medium.

This is the same old Enter the Dragon story

19 million views.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

Having 19 millions views does not means its good quality nor even good at all.

There are also peoples watching this out of curiosity or because of a buzz.

Personally this has no appeal to me, it is just an intellectual curiosity. Not even fun. And there is not even a good story in it. I don't "feel" anything for it.

I prefer to watch the Batman fight posted somewhere else which has artistic qualities in the images, in the direction, the lighting, etc.. I prefer its beauty.

To speak your musical language, it is like hearing some kind of Jazz where only count the intellectual virtuosity and improvisation rather than the emotion or the beauty. I prefer more simple, tribal musics but having a soul, or something that moves me.

Your definition of story vs movie is, to me, reversed. This is not the "story" that moves me, that touch my heart, but how the story is told and performed.

The proof of this is when you watch remakes or reboots. Same stories, but different directors, actors, DP, etc.. and different emotions at the end. One will move you while another one will let you cold.

The proof of this is when you hear some good voice artist telling a story vs a synthesized voice telling the exact same story. Here my heart wont care about the story itself, but how it is told.

In fact, even a bad story can move you if it is very well told or performed.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

then you are pursuing a niche, hobbyist market. The only people who like that speed jazz you can't dance to are jazz musicians who value technique over composition.

"The words of the songs, not the person, is what attracts people."
Bob Marley

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

I have the feeling you don't read my messages correctly lol.

At least that comfort me in thinking any try at having a constructive discussion with you is useless. :hehe:

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

thanks for the ad hom attack.... I'm explaining to you why your request for a linear work flow isn't a priority. :P

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

lol, nothing to do with the discussion, always a diversion when you have no valid arguments or when you don't know how to properly argue anymore. Anyway, I hope you realize you are wasting your time with me.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/27/2015)

That's indeed very interesting, I don't have Netflix so I didn't knew about that.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

rampa (2/27/2015)

I wonder if there is a similar thing to FACS for basic movement. Things like different walks, jumps, turns. Probably good to break it down to walking/navigating locomotion, etc../.. If you plan to do mocap for the body, this may be a non-issue.

That's indeed a good question. I'm not aware of such kind of coding system for locomotion.

Perhaps because it is more trivial, a type of locomotion and a direction, so no one felt the need for that.

To transpose a mocap locomotion from one figure to another one, just motion retargeting is often enough. It's a matter of adjusting rotation and scaling to the topology of the other figure.

But to transpose facial mocap or animation from one figure to another one, it is far less obvious, hence the need for some kind of coding system independent of the topology of each figure face. In this case we could talk about "intention retargeting" instead of direct "motion retargeting".

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

The only people who like that speed jazz you can't dance to are jazz musicians who value technique over composition.

Who said all forms of JAZZ got to be for dancing ?

Originally JAZZ was for self expression, individual IMPROVISATION borrowing heavily from other forms of music. The focus was on the FORM - creating a new FORM. Sometimes it was even played without regular meter or beat.

The safe way to describe JAZZ is to call it as a "medley".

But there is method to the madness. Decades of experimentation has given way to many distinct forms of JAZZ.

So please don't say that all JAZZ forms got to be danceable.

[ Just a pointer. Not longing for an extended discussion. ]

NOTE : Similarly you can experiment with any FORM in animation. The Human Mind looks for a "Method" in that madness , a "Pattern". Then the viewers feel comfortable and consider your animation as a STYLE. Like that in your STICK FIGHT ANIMATION. Once the viewer is COMFORTABLE WITH THE FORM, HE STARTS LOOKING FOR THE CONTENT.

It's not about the STORY. The flow of story comes much later. For RETENTION, the HUMAN MIND FIRST LOOKS FOR A DECODABLE PATTERN TO UNDERSTAND and FEEL AT HOME. Once it finds the PATTERN, it settles down and looks for a STORY or LINK FOR THE SWITCHABLE SCENES.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

Interactive music is mainstream, sitting and going oooh and ahhh to a song is a niche market.

A story that inspires imagination in the viewer is mainstream, a shiny object on a screen without any value other than being shiny, is a niche market.

Thank you!

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

Planet, I like music, but I don't particularly like dancing or dance music. Don't particularly care for mainstream either for that matter. I've become to appreciate Jazz over the years, and overall I have a strange musical taste. Blame my parents.

Now I can understand that if you want to sell music as a product, you have to take all that into account: trends, mainstream, and what not. And I'm sure that you want to have a high technical quality in that product as well.

So in as far as animated movies go, I think we all have a right to pursue the technical quality we deem necessary for our work, and I find it encouraging that people see possibilities in iClone that will make that quality possible. I want to hear what they have to say and learn from that.

Is story important? Of course it is. But so is the quality of the execution in whatever medium you chose to tell your story. I think it means you show respect for your audience. And for me it's fun when I find I've created something that improves up on my previous work.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

animagic, you I will agree with because you make iclone work :cool:

them I wont agree with because they have this view of iclone not being enough to make a pro quality render, some responsibility and skill is required from the user....they haven't even tried.

you are right, they are wrong despite saying the same thing.

And they will stay in that corner until I can see them render something amazing in iclone.

ps - your choice in music is a niche market, these foreigners claim to be professionals and can't even grasp the culture of the customers they aspire to service.

New Rule: when you judge iclone, iclone judges you! ^.^

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

you are right, they are wrong despite saying the same thing.

Planet !

You keep creating a cesspool for yourself and sink.
You keep INVENTING weird logic !

I thought you to be much more clear headed than this !
You must find a better way to express your thought.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

nice way to avoid 'working' at making a good render in iclone.
all along it's you guys that deviate from this simple request.

If you guys needed help and tutorials in how to effectively use iclone, all you had to do was ask.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

animagic (2/28/2015)

../.. So in as far as animated movies go, I think we all have a right to pursue the technical quality we deem necessary for our work, and I find it encouraging that people see possibilities in iClone that will make that quality possible. I want to hear what they have to say and learn from that.

Is story important? Of course it is. But so is the quality of the execution in whatever medium you chose to tell your story. I think it means you show respect for your audience. And for me it's fun when I find I've created something that improves up on my previous work.

This is the spirit, I have exactly the same state of mind.

I think that sums up pretty well why having a good story is not enough. It's like having a good music partition. Someone must play it, the best way that someone can and that is, to me too, showing respect to the audience.

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

../.. And they will stay in that corner until I can see them render something amazing in iclone../..

And do you really think that what you can see makes any difference in what we think, in what we do, and in what we are looking for ? Wake up JudgePSD ;)

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

There are people who jump at things on the slightest "taunt". If I remember correctly, you fancied "martial art" some point of time in your life. Just that you never learnt a bit from it.

In my 35 years of career in Graphics, advertising, multimedia, software development and elearning, I never kept my work samples. I always talked to my clients with a plain paper or on a white board. Be it a software project, a novel or an animated story, I love working on Paper napkins or a Mind map software for expanding my ideas.

I always refused to see the 3d work of my employees when I hired them. I simply gave them 3 projects and once cleared I just spoke to them for 10 minutes before hiring them.

The 1st project for all of them, irrespective of the experience, was to design a COFFEE MUG with a Brand on it. The Texture was always supplied by us and the guy is supposed to simply put it on the model in the right manner.

The second was to design a HAND that would tighten a screw. The guy needed to animate it and set the lighting.

Very simple indeed.

95% got filtered out at the first level itself. From my chamber I used to watch ( through CCTV) their BODY LANGUAGE while designing this simple coffee mug and their first 3 steps. People used get excited looking at such an easy project at their job interview.

For me, the time and approach to work mattered most rather than the end result. As the Owner / Project Leader I would define the END RESULT and they need to execute. So the work approach mattered to me the most rather than what they come up after 10 minutes. I rarely waited beyond 4 minutes. In that 4 minutes, either I would reject the guy or ask him to move on to the next project. I would instantly know who would fail. Or succeed.

We have our own ways of evaluating people when we deal with hiring of large number of employees or Talents. The method is much more evolved than what you would like to believe. In an interview, the first sentence itself tells us if the person is genuine or trying to show off without any depth. Or the person would be a team player or not.

I have no issues with you. But I would appreciate if you stop "taunting" people constantly to draw their swords. Just that it does not show you in good light.

Not sure if I qualify for your litmus test of "ONE OF US !!"

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

you can believe all you want ...

here are some facts

Tron was a FAILURE, Despite being state of the art technology because it had no story

Critical response for the film was mixed. Review aggregator website Rotten Tomatoes reported that 51% of commentators gave the film a positive review, based on 226 reviews. Attaining a mean score of 5.9/10, the site's consensus stated: "Tron: Legacy boasts dazzling visuals, but its human characters and story get lost amidst its state-of-the-art production design. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron:_Legacy#Critical_response

where as, The Blair Witch Project

The film received generally positive reception from critics and went on to gross over US$248 million worldwide,[4] making it one of the most successful independent movies of all time. The DVD was released on Tuesday, October 26, 1999 and presented only in full-screen.

The initial investment by the three filmmakers was about US$35,000.

because it was a great story!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blair_Witch_Project

Opinions are all fun and games until someone loses a debate...

if you guys ever plan on becoming real animators one day, you should know these things! ^.^

you can debate and resist allll you want .....it doesn't make you right when the facts are placed on the table!

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

If we knew what would succeed for a film, then we would have had 100 times more billionaires around us.

I don't think you ever had to take the responsibilty for a large investment.
People have gone beyond the level that you are trying to drag them down to. You need to evolve your thinking.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

i'm trying to show you what you need .....first thing you need is to stop thinking shiny is the key! Its NOT!!

I just put out a new track day before yesterday.....yesterday it appeared in like 8 pirate sites .... not because it's a shiny production.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@PSD
It is easy to judge after the facts.

If it was that simple, one would have discovered some kind of receipt to make movies always successful. We are not there yet.

A counter example to what you describe: "Blade Runner" was not well received at that time and was considered as a failure in terms of box office. Nowadays it is considered as one of the most beautiful sci-fi movie ever made. And it has continuous selling on dvd, bluray, etc..

Life is not that simple. Art neither.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

Facts!

Blade Runner initially polarized critics: some were displeased with the pacing, while others enjoyed its thematic complexity. The film performed poorly in North American theaters but has since become a cult film.[3] It has been hailed for its production design, depicting a "retrofitted" future,[4] and remains a leading example of the neo-noir genre.[5] It brought the work of Philip K. Dick to the attention of Hollywood and several later films were based on his work.[6] Ridley Scott regards Blade Runner as "probably" his most complete and personal film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_Runner

His complete and most personal film!

AKA - a great story. All the critics could hate all they want, the great story prevailed.

You only proved my point further.....

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

i'm trying to show you what you need .....first thing you need is to stop thinking shiny is the key! Its NOT!!

But tell me, why are you showing such bad faith ?

We are agree that a story is important, but you keep on blindly claiming that only shiny is the key to us ?

It is like you have been told to maintain a certain level of fighting on the forum so you just take what is needed in the mouth of others to entertain the fighting but you don't consider the all given arguments or explanation. That is becoming so obvious the more I read your answers.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

because you insist you can't make a hit movie with iclone. ^.^

Iclone is just fine. In Fact, Iclone looks Fantastic!!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

Ah no, you got it all wrong.

The actual good story is in the original K.Dick novel. Did you red it at least ?

The Blade Runner script story itself is actually pretty poor in comparison.

What made Blade Runner a cult movie has nothing to do with the story, but with the treatment.

The performances, the lighting of one the greatest DP in the world (rip..) The vision of the director, the atmosphere, the incredible musical score, etc.. all those things that you can't just deduce from a story. You must have a vision as a Director in order to pull that out, and you must have the right tools even if those "tools" are peoples (awesome DP, Musicians, Actors, etc..).

Other great K.Dick stories have been ported to the screen with poor results, despite being great stories.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

the irony, that I'm presenting facts after facts after facts ..and you still argue...then say I want to fight ..because you insist your opinion is correct.

You need to stop all that and start making a hit film in iclone ...as it is right now....because as a director, you should be above your tools ...not dependent on them.

Iclone looks 10x better than that machinima movie that got picked up in hollywood.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

Unfortunately you don't present facts, just a biased view of the reality where only the story matters and a naive view regarding the level of quality iClone can achieve.

What matters to me is to achieve - whatever the chosen story - a certain level of quality I have in mind. It's kind of a game right now, because I could achieve that level of quality with other tools, but the challenge here is to use iClone. I know exactly what I can do with it, I don't need your advices or tutorials, and I'm constantly testing things, trying workarounds, etc.. while maintaining kind of pressure on Reallusion to fix the easy things. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won't.

Whenever a new version comes out I'm checking out what has been improved to reach that level of quality I've imposed to myself and to see if they have fixed the most basic showstopper issues. So far, regarding my choice of level of quality, we are not there yet.

In short, I have a strategy in motion.

That does not mean someone can't do great movies with iClone. There already are actually.

But you just don't listen, and feel comfortable in this fighting zone, perhaps because you don't know what else to do. Any plan in creating a iClone movie btw ?

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

well that 'certain level of quality' isn't available right now, what are you going to do ...give up and become a farmer ?

The fact remains that someone got signed to HBO with something that looked way below iclones level of quality. That someone should have been YOU!

You have no right to be grouchy at iclone!

Being Passionate and Being Grouchy are not the same thing!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

well that 'certain level of quality' isn't available right now, what are you going to do ...be a farmer ?../..

Just working.. I'm currently working on an animated 3d tv serie in Luxembourg. Is that ok with you ? I have to update my linkedin page btw.

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

../..The fact remains that someone got signed to HBO with something that looked way below iclones level of quality../..

This is what you don't get. I'm not trying to get signed at all costs. Me and my partner want first to produce the visions we have in mind with the quality we have in mind. Then sell it. It may work, it may not. We are at an age we want to produce what we like. We have nothing to prove. If it does not work then so be it. At least we try.

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

../..You have no right to be grouchy at iclone!

On the contrary, this is even guaranteed by law, being a customer ;)

ps: Btw, you did not answered my question about your plan(s) in creating (a) iClone movie(s) ?

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

for the 5 millionth time, I'M A NOOB!! I was hoping for some inspiration from YOU!! but instead I'm here explaining what you need to make a hit, i'm feeling bad for you here...you sound hopeless like you'll never be able to make a hit till you have the right button!

I Don't KNOW how to make movies, but that will not stop me from making a hit movie!

All you do is complain about the only tool i know how to use, and I'm the one doing the hollywood renders!

There is something Very wrong with this picture!!

Now Please, do something amazing with iclone, post it on the forum and inspire me.

Thank You!

Geez....what does a person have to do to see some actual talent from you...wow!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

Oh, I understand now..

So you are a noob, you don't know how to make movies but you are explaining me what I need to make a hit. Erm.. my turn: What's wrong with this picture lol

But you are still waiting for me to show something that would inspire you. That's very flattering but how come I have the feeling that whatever I would post wouldn't reach the "amazing" label you have in mind ? :D

Yet "amazing" is very subjective. I would love to create something "amazing", but amazing to me. And that is dependent on the level of quality I can achieve, not just the story, the direction, the vision, etc..

But don't worry, I will post things, I'm not afraid of the critics. It just takes time.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

yes, i've been around many projects that became hits...there was a quality of attitude and vision that made it happen. The demand for quality was far greater than you'll ever present, but i made it a point to study what makes hits ....it wasn't the shiny....it was the vision of the person that insisted their song was a hit.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (2/28/2015)

[quote]

But don't worry, I will post things, I'm not afraid of the critics. It just takes time.

Ahem, Iclone is real time.

Iclone is fun, why u no have fun with iclone ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

grabiller (2/28/2015)

[quote]

But don't worry, I will post things, I'm not afraid of the critics. It just takes time.

Ahem, Iclone is real time.

Iclone is fun, why u no have fun with iclone ?

I've great fun with iClone or else I wouldn't continue using it ;)

We just don't have the same idea of what is "fun" I believe, probably a question of culture difference.

Rendering at 8k to workaround the aliasing problem and see that it kind of works is so much fun to me :D

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

So, you must be someone one wants in his team right ? ;)

We both want to see amazing things done with iClone.

Well, I have an idea: Do you want to help me ? At least try ? :w00t:

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

I want to see everyone work in harmony. This includes you working in harmony with Reallusion. The only way we will get the best from everyone is trust, support and respect.

Iclone is great, and will only get better. :)

and somehow, I do think you have it in you to do something amazing with iclone...

But you need to stop complaining long enough to do it! :pinch:

that should have been you selling your movie to hbo with iclone.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

At least I've tried, giving my hand, you refused it.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

lol -smh-

you just like to fight. fight about anything you want, just leave iclone out of it, it's not iclones fault that someone got signed to hbo with a great story on lesser quality footage, that iclone can easily out produce .....at least in the right hands ^.^

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

The only one who like to fight is you here. Whenever there is a quite thread you always show your face starting a fight ;)

I've offered to help me but you refused, telling me what should I do or what I shouldn't, forgetting that has no impact on what I'll do or what I won't. Who is the fighter here ?

Until you show good faith and positive attitude, don't try to lecture others, that won't work.

Objective iClone critics is not bad attitude, on the contrary, it is showing we have interest in iClone (or else why bother ?) and we are pushing to make it better, and at least to fix the few things that are very wrong, that's all.

But you still don't get it, do you ? :w00t:

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

lecture others ? you mean keeping you and your crew of complainers at bay ? lol
I help my fellow noobies that really enjoy iclone and do amazing work.

Good faith to you means letting you dis iclone, not going to happen.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (2/28/2015)

What's not going to happen is for you to make others think what you want them to think.

In your dreams you may have some super powa on this forum but in reality you are just like the rest of us: a customer.

What's going to happen for sure though, is that I'll continue pointing out the good things and the bad things in iClone, in a way as objective as possible and you won't be able to do anything about it.

When you will like what I'll say you wont show up, but when you wont like what I'll say you will show up as usual starting a fight trying to dilute the critic in some useless debate about stories, fun, and what not. Nothing new. Just boring stuff for the noobs you try to help, for your own "community". Bad move.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Hay guys

6 pages back this was a very cool thread to read, you both were talking and making a interesting thread.
It's now back at the you smell level.:P

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/28/2015)

Hay guys

6 pages back this was a very cool thread to read, you both were talking and making a interesting thread.
It's now back at the you smell level.:P

Lol you are right, indeed :hehe:

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (2/28/2015)

bluemidget666 (2/28/2015)

Hay guys

6 pages back this was a very cool thread to read, you both were talking and making a interesting thread.
It's now back at the you smell level.:P

Lol you are right, indeed :hehe:

I hope this can get back on track...:unsure:

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

I'm starting this thread here following a message I wrote in another thread explaining why, as a professional, with my partner and our company, we are interested in iClone as a production tool:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223535.aspx

And an answer from prabhatM following that message:
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost223961.aspx

Feel free to participate to this discussion.

I can assure you that I am working very hard over this.I live near Montreal and there's a "Video game" culture. There're very open about new ways of production. I think the more we working on it, the more we get the chance to reach the "target". Every "famous" project wich involved Iclone is related by Reallusion , see the last newsletter:

This is a royal road to motivate the Reallusion team to make update. I think this year will be THE year!! And I'm sure we'll see Machinima product on TV ! (back to the subject of this tread)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

mtakerkart (2/28/2015)

I agree, I think it is just a matter of actually "doing it" and showing it to the right peoples, then doors will open. Because as long as we have nothing to show (read: that reach the quality we have in mind) nothing will happen because words are not yet enough to convince producers, media, financial supports, founds, etc..

There is one thing I'm having hard time to argue with, and I'm trying hard to find the right arguments (until I'll be able to show something), is this kind of mind barrier, this surprisingly naive but embarrassing question we have to answer first, that I had to answer to most professionals including producers, media, financial support, etc..:

"Why bother creating realistic 3d movies or tv series when you can just shoot on set with actors ?"

Because we can ? Well, that's not enough, that does not "sell".

In the professional environment I'm working on there is always that concern about the artistic benefit doing it in 3d instead with actors:
"Actors will always outperform 3d avatars!"
"Real sets will always be better than 3d sets!"

This may not be entirely true in VFX, but in the case of "machinima" with "Plausible Realistic Rendering" this is the pure truth.

Is that a reason to quit ? Certainly not. And I'm fighting hard since years if not decades to find the right way to present such projects with solid arguments.

Of course, the first argument producers, financial founds, media, etc.. will pay very much attention is the financial cost of such productions. Here we have a strong argument because I believe we can propose projects at the 1/5th or the 1/10th from the cost of a regular 3d animation production.

The second argument is that even so we are trying to do realistic animations and rendering we are not trying to make the audience believe the characters are real actors. We don't do VFX here, our 3d characters will be realistic but not real. And here, the difficulty is to avoid the uncanny valley. Either we should be just before the valley, or right after (which means in our case VFX/real looking actors which is not what we want). Yet those characters must be able to move the audience. This is a challenge that cannot be answered by words. We just have to find the way to do it right and show the results.

The third argument is that this kind of projects is not here to replace live action nor usual 3d animations but as an alternative, a new way of telling stories to a new kind of audience but I still have to work on that argument (beside the usual mentioned gaming audience).

The fourth argument, here arbitrarily the artistic one, is the one I've the most difficulties to make a case for as for me I see the same artistic liberty in this kind of projects than with live action/vfx combined projects, to me it is no different, as I see machinima with the eye of a live action director. Of course there is the NPR (non photo realistic) approach but this is closer to usual 3d animations to me, my concern here is with "Plausible Realistic Rendering". And in this case, the question is: Will machinima be just a "subset" of live action projects or are there specific artistic factors that can be unique to machinima, not applicable to live action projects that ultimately will set a specific artistic "plus value" to this kind of machinima projects ?

Beside the artistic and technical aspects I have to solve in order to create the first real proof of concept I have in mind, I also have to work on these arguments in order to make a solid case to defend such projects when it comes to sell it (before showing it, and after).

You all may help here.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

There is one thing I'm having hard time to argue with, and I'm trying hard to find the right arguments (until I'll be able to show something), is this kind of mind barrier, this surprisingly naive but embarrassing question we have to answer first, that I had to answer to most professionals including producers, media, financial support, etc..:

"Why bother creating realistic 3d movies or tv series when you can just shoot on set with actors ?"

Because we can ? Well, that's not enough, that does not "sell".

It's a classic dilemma.

But it proves that you have taken a hard look at the animation business beyond the thrill of using a software / tool to create a clip to demonstrate "what you could do with the software features.

Congratulation for advancing into the "maturing process" of this business.

I wanted to point out this risk and the issues you just mentioned, when you started talking about the Linear Workflow. Glad I held back and I am also glad that you raised these points on your own.

I understood these issues long back and consciously decided to develop series with Toon Shaders and style of Seventies but with the Modern Tools. This will always keep me in check and overcome the dilemma you are in now or I was before.

Yesterday, I was talking about Planet "taunting" people to show their work. The classic dilemma that you talked is the reason why I do not fall for these kind of taunts.

I don't work on CLIPS. I work on many episodes before showing them to anybody. I am very comfortable with my basic animation capabilty to tell stories. I just want them to be a little more cinematic with rich content. I want people to take a holistic judgement on my work rather than doing some kind of technical evaluation. I am not trying to prove myself as a "technocrat". I want to prove that we could produce good series with tools like DAZ or ICLONE. But the end result may not have the imprint of DAZ or ICLONE. I will avoid the usual / standard characters and motions from these softwares.

My focus is to create a pipeline that will help me produce quick animated series at a very reasonable cost. But I would use RICH scripts, music, professional voice talents to deliver my productions. I have atleast one music / dance sequence in every episode. I want to differentiate my product in some manner.

At this moment, I am focussing on few episodes of 45 minutes each for children. The first one is about the issues and dilemma the young school children face on day to day basis. The second one is about one school girl with interest in martial art, her elder sister and a poetic Robot.There is also a Spy series for the young adults. A new adventure series is at the scripting stage. It's about a warrior mouse who sets out to search his old teacher. It could be enhanced with the concept of Time Travel.

All in toon shaders combined with realistic particle effects in AE and HitFilm.

Hope my selection of subjects is strategic enough to get the advertisers' attention.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

According to Steven Spielberg, you guys have no idea what you are talking about!

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Bill Gate was a dropout.

So everybody should be a dropout to be a success.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

ya know what all these big directors, steve jobs, bill gates had that you guys don't ?

confidence!

Don't worry, I'll help you get there.....and it won't be by coddling you!

you don't hope to make a hit, you keep filming till you get one!

#toughenup #showmeyouriclonerenders

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

Confidence and False Bravado are two different things.

BTW, I thought the NOOBS and the PERPETUAL NOOBS are relatively less confident !

Bundle of contradictions as usual.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

as a noob i'm free to dream. I pay more attention to the audience than the ceo that gets paid by the audience.

False bravado is denying the facts....while you guys worry about corporate quality, hobbyists are getting billions of views with game footage no less, and ad money for it, a guy got signed to hbo with moviezu footage, an 8bit pop tart cat that farts rainbows got picked up by nissan, minecraft got a multi-million dollar deal and a movie, meanwhile you run around like headless chickens looking for hollywood effects.

enough already, use what you have and keep filming!

Amuse me!

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

Amuse me!

Amuse yourself. That will keep you busy and contented.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@prabhatM
Lets just ignore PSD for now, obviously he has decided to pollute this thread and just troll around with nothing but old news we red already in so many other threads.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/1/2015)

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

Amuse me!

Amuse yourself. That will keep you busy and contented.

yes, actually....that's the secret. I've seen it work exactly like that time and time again. First hand. I am absolutely a legend in my own mind!

"As you think, so shall you become." - Bruce Lee

"You just wait. I'm going to be the biggest Chinese Star in the world." - Bruce Lee

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/1/2015)

../.. I understood these issues long back and consciously decided to develop series with Toon Shaders and style of Seventies but with the Modern Tools. This will always keep me in check and overcome the dilemma you are in now or I was before../..

Right, I understand that and it certainly helps.

On my side I'm a bit tired of toon shading and such (and children stuff in general), I like realistic rendering, more adult stories and themes and I want to go there but I also understand I've chosen the hard way.

At the same time, this is where the challenge really is, imho, and that's what passionate me the most.

I don't see it as a "dilemma" though, because the choice is already made, at least on my side, but more as new arguments to develop, new approach to setup, to invent, etc.. There are a lot of stuff to create and to invent here, on the technical side, on the artistic side and even on the marketing side.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

On my side I'm a bit tired of toon shading and such (and children stuff in general), I like realistic rendering, more adult stories and themes and I want to go there but I also understand I've chosen the hard way.

Try COMEDY / ADVENTURE / ACTION. They would help you get going and get accepted on the GEC.

Take your chance with an afternoon show for women with comedy as the undercurrent. If you can have good engaging screenplays, this theme should help you achieve your first success with DIGITAL ACTORS at a reasonable cost. Easy MOCAP and without any SFX you can deliver your episodes. If you are using ICLONE, then use DAZ characters. They have the ability to deliver better EXPRESSIONS. Simple GI look and ICLONE internal rendering engine should be good enough.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

Oh, on the theme side we've already chosen Sci-Fi ;)

But I'm not worry about the theme itself.

The vicious question is more like: If you do, say, Galactica 2015 TV Serie, what benefit you will get doing it in 3d instead of live.

I think, at least for now, the only argument that stands strong is: The cost.

Are there any artistic argument you can think of that would, potentially, also stands strong ?

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

If it's sci-fi, then DIGITAL ACTORS are perfectly acceptable. It's kind of bonus if they look and act naturally.

In this particular theme it's batter to use 3D programmes than live actors. Because you would be using 3D Virtual Sets anyway. Makeup/costume time and cost etc can really be killing for a large set of characters.

I would do the series in the following manner.

1) All Models / Props / Scenes composed in 3D.
2) 3D characters are created before.
3) Dialogues are recorded before.
4) Use Multi-actor MOCAP ( with Head Tilt capture and NEAR MODE ) system to capture the basic Motion. Use the virtual sets.
5) Use Brekel Facial or similar system for the basic facial animation ( Better than Puppeteering) . Use the pre-recorded audio for the cue.

This could be very quick production system. You may just need 2-3 male and Female actors to add the personae variety for large number of Digital Actors.

Suggestions are welcome.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

What comes to mind to me while I read this, is that others have gone down the road your on so cheacking out how they did it may be a good start.

Look at plankton invasion, very very similar path to yours.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

In fact no, "Plankton Invasion" is very far from the path I'm on.

Les Dessous de Plankton Invasion

First, it is not a machinima production, it has been created the traditional way, with Maya, Nuke, etc.. with 60 peoples (which is quite a lot for an animated TV serie, in Europe at least) and according to Laurence Vacher - with whom I've briefly worked at another company called Def2Shoot - it takes 1 and a half year to produce 39 episodes of 7 minutes. It is a very expensive TV serie that has been founded the usual way, and a very classic European (here mostly franco-belgium) kind of co-production handled by TeamTO in France.

Second, it has a "cartoonish" style and the main characters are "cartoonish" creatures.

Exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do actually, both in terms of production setup and workflow and artistically.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Well put it that way not at all like your path but the concept was a educational animation series Thoe not machinema did use lesser known software such as messiah studio. The look and feel of the animation may be very different from your own but how it came together is where I was comparing it to your path.

How did they set it all up, characters, sound, sets these are areas you may learn from.
Also the short 850 meters may be of interest and I think they have a making of set of videos.

These are only mentioned because they are a relatively small production teams and would have hit the same issues you are going to hit.

Maybe not plankton invasion, I did think that was a lot smaller project than it was.

Also is it still machinema ? I understood the concept with Iclone 4 but I consider it more of a rapid animation system now adays. I know its a old argument but the more it develops the more relevant the question becomes.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

../..The look and feel of the animation may be very different from your own but how it came together is where I was comparing it to your path.

How did they set it all up, characters, sound, sets these are areas you may learn from../

Well, not sure if we are talking about the same show, but if you were referring to "Plankton Invasion" produced by TeamTO in France, I know exactly how this kind of productions are set up and put together both on the production side and technical side, I'm french and this is the exact same kind of productions I'm working on right now (except for the artistic concept) as a TD/Cg Supervisor.

In Europe at least, this kind of production start with one production company having a project, finding interested media (TV) for diffusion and/or co-production, then search for financial partners (co-producers) across Europe - here in Belgium, but usually in 3 or more different countries. Each production then present the project in its own country for government and/or private funding. All the co-producers then share the financial resources and dispatch the work (who will do the design, the modeling, the texturing, layout, animation, rendering, etc..) according to some complicated accounting obligation from the funding sources. At this point they already earned their money from financial margin (granted they efficiently control the production cost). Whether the show will succeed or not is secondary.

"Plankton Invasion" can be funded and has been funded this way because it is a "cartoonish" product. So it can be included and aired in children shows with the benefit of being "educational".

Believe me I know exactly how this kind of productions are put together both technically and in terms of production here in Europe, because I'm in this very business.

A science-fiction, realistic, non-cartoonish full 3d TV show has currently zero chance to be funded this way in Europe.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

[quote][b]

"Plankton Invasion" can be funded and has been funded this way because it is a "cartoonish" product. So it can be included and aired in children shows with the benefit of being "educational".

Believe me I know exactly how this kind of productions are put together both technically and in terms of production here in Europe, because I'm in this very business.

A science-fiction, realistic, non-cartoonish full 3d TV show has currently zero chance to be funded this way in Europe.

In recent years World wide, there has been a movement to avoid advertising commercials aimed at the children below 12 years old. The commercial brands are thus non-committal to the cartoonish productions aimed at the children. But the Institutions are willing to COMMISSION these kind of productions for edutainment.

Grabiller's plan to use Digital Actors for sc-fi serials can be aired on regular GEC (TV) in exchange of FCT. Then we must be in a position sell these commercial tim on the TV to the corporate brands. I guess there is a huge potential in this segment. Sci-Fi serials are universal. It can be broadcasted in any country.

Do one Pilot. Keep the scripts for 25 episodes ready. Create a good PPT and present to the brand managers. You will have your funding in place.

Or, negotiate with the TV channels for a FIXED PRICE + Bonus.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

../.. Also is it still machinema ? I understood the concept with Iclone 4 but I consider it more of a rapid animation system now adays. I know its a old argument but the more it develops the more relevant the question becomes.

This is indeed a very relevant and interesting question.

In another message in the forum I've mentioned the idea that we may have to find another word but at the same time this is the closest word I can think of that currently match the approach.

Of course we don't use a specific game anymore with a specific game content to create stories by playing the game in real time, capturing the images, then edit those and do some post production in order to create the final movie.

I agree with you, we are talking more about a kind of "Rapid Movie Production" system (as animation alone is not only concerned, but also rendering, and also asset creation but more on that later).

One core idea of the machinima is also still valid: you can do the opposite of a live action movie: You create the action first, you then decide how to shoot it. The action is here forever in your "RMP" system, you can then take the time to decide how to shoot it. It's an optional alternative to the traditional film making process, something you can't do with live action.

And this is actually a good artistic argument that can be added to the case ;)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

../..You create the action first, you then decide how to shoot it. The action is here forever in your "RMP" system, you can then take the time to decide how to shoot it. It's an optional alternative to the traditional film making process, something you can't do with live action.

And this is actually a good artistic argument that can be added to the case ;)

To be fair this is also kind of possible for live action movies with the help of previz.

But this has a non-negligible cost added to the production, while this "previz" approach is native and implicit in our case.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

Taking Spielberg ,Lucas, Bill gate , minecraft or Markiplier as exemple of success is an illusion.
It' called statistical aberration. How many students want to be like Spielberg ? Millions!!!! how many win : 1
How many ingeneers want to be like Bill gates ? Millions!!!! How many elected? 1

I think what Grabiller and me want to do is to find a main street way for majority of people wich want to make movie in a professional (means earn money) way and get money to support our families . Trying making enough money alone on internet is like trying to get loterie, Billions players , one winner, but we see only the winner never the billions of loser. My target is not to make movies or series alone , I would like to build a company to give job for people. I'm totally convinced that the business way have lot of more chances to success as trying to be a famous video on the web.
Using Iclone as an hobby is ok for shure but some of us are trying to use this tool much more in a business way , and I think this the subject of this thread.

But this is my point of vue.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

i'm staying out of it, yall are set in your ways....I wish you all the best ♥

if you watched all the famous director interviews in the playlist I posted earlier, and found a common thread to their success....you will get the point i've been making. It has nothing to do with trying to be like anyone else, in fact, quite the opposite.

but we can safely tell the pros just like we tell the noobs.

Have fun!!

just keep all negative comments about iclone off the discussion and ya wont hear a peep from me. I'm really not into debating people that can't handle facts.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

You create the action first, you then decide how to shoot it. The action is here forever in your "RMP" system, you can then take the time to decide how to shoot it. It's an optional alternative to the traditional film making process, something you can't do with live action.

THIS is the first feature I saw when I played with Iclone, because I work on real tV sets.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

mtakerkart (3/1/2015)

I think you've summed it up very well, thanks for that.

I'm not running after money or fame either, I'm just trying to make a living out of a passion and out of what I really like (sci-fi) and if others can benefit from these projects - read eat and support their families - I'll be the happiest man :)

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

In last 15-20 posts on this thread, did anybody make a negative comment about ICLONE?

Then why raise this point ?

Why are you sounding like THE FIRST AND ONLY CITIZEN OF THE RL KINGDOM?

Or, you really want it to be that way ?

====
BTW, what is the COMMON THREAD all these directors talked about in your playlist ? Can we have one sentence summary ?

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

you will get the point i've been making. It has nothing to do with trying to be like anyone else, in fact, quite the opposite.

Planet , The first time I'm playing theater , I was 12, all my teachers says to my dad I'll will have
a good chance to be an actor....Nothing.
I make my first Sci-fi short film at 17 , alone , made my set , made my own sfx with a 8mm camera , I had a full one page paper article about it................nothing
In 1991 I made a clip video with "the time Bullet" with 6 AAton camera at 90 degres to make
the dancer turning in the air in a freez way , 6 years before matrix.................nothing
In 1998 , I made a numerique pipeline to produce stop motion in a easy-fast-cheap way with a Video camera...................nothing

Just to tell you that Billions of people had take too the non-regular way and get nothing......

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

thanks for explaining that you still don't get it.

"Edison failed 10,000 times before he made the electric light. Do not be discouraged if you fail a few times." - Napoleon Hill

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

thanks for explaining that you still don't get it.

"Edison failed 10,000 times before he made the electric light. Do not be discouraged if you fail a few times." - Napoleon Hill

What do you think the guys are doing here ? They are stumbling, getting up and trying again and again to perfect their process of film / animation production.

Could you not see that ?

Or, somebody got to explain this in details ?

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/1/2015)

Could you not see that ?

Or, somebody got to explain this in details ?

Prabbhat, I'm trying to stay out of this.

what i don't see is amazing renders.
People don't get paid for what they think, they get paid for what they do.
I'm your boss, I'm the audience you want money from.

Leave me out of this, you won't win....I've been around too many successful people to accept your stories.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

mtakerkart (3/1/2015)

Using Iclone as an hobby is ok for shure but some of us are trying to use this tool much more in a business way .....

Yes. That's the basic idea. Taking ICLONE to another level i.e. doing real animation business with the help of ICLONE.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

People don't get paid for what they think, they get paid for what they do.
I'm your boss, I'm the audience you want money from.

Walk in when the Box Office opens.

Why worry during the production ? Production issues are dealt by a different set of people who believe that their production will look absolutely fresh when the movie releases even after 2 years of production.

They don't run to the audience after every minute of production for validation.

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

if it's ok with you ( and I'm sure it's not )

I'd rather take Mr Bakshi's advice.

save yourself a heartache, don't debate me :D

everything being on the brink of extinction, change of climate, change of budgets, change of medium, change of distribution, change of policies, change of industry, change of format, change of tools, change of workflow........has been going on since the dawn of man...the nature of everything is change....you need to get paid for something no one else has done....not compete for what has already been done. The caveat, everything has already been done before, the workaround ..there is only 1 you and one way only you can uniquely express something everyone forgot about.

which btw, you have a hit idea, but i'm not going to tell you which or explain to you why because you have been so gosh darn argumentative! so good luck with that. In fact, you know what ? I'm glad I thought of it. :cool:

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

Taking ICLONE to another level

I think we are very close :)

By the way the first time I thought that "Machinima" look could be a fantastic medium to democratize CGI world, It was watching this 8 years ago :

What emotion!!!

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

@PSD

Isn't the last clip you posted the Ralph one exactly what this thread is about ?
Everything he said in that clip covers what's been said here...

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

yep....and the way he describes disney, is the way I see these industry standards everyone insists is necessary. Now while I can appreciate that there is an artistic aspect to that, which someone may hold as signature ....I can't appreciate someone holding it as a standard because the standard is in fact change. The only thing that doesn't change, is a good story.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/1/2015)

../.. Grabiller's plan to use Digital Actors for sc-fi serials can be aired on regular GEC (TV) in exchange of FCT. Then we must be in a position sell these commercial tim on the TV to the corporate brands. I guess there is a huge potential in this segment. Sci-Fi serials are universal. It can be broadcasted in any country.

Do one Pilot. Keep the scripts for 25 episodes ready. Create a good PPT and present to the brand managers. You will have your funding in place.

Or, negotiate with the TV channels for a FIXED PRICE + Bonus.

We don't really do that in Europe - at least not in France - so I'm not used to this kind of approach.

Perhaps when the time comes you could help me try this :)

Creating a Pilot is definitely the first step (after all the technical and artistic tests and proof of concept, of course).

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

This thread was pretty interesting when it was discussing ideas and implementations. Sadly, it has ended up mostly a bunch of attacks and defenses.

PSD, I'm asking you to please stop with the relentless defense of RL when it is unwarranted. You seem to have taken "The best defense is a good offense" a bit to seriously. And also the constant re-directing of threads to things so vague and general that they totally lose focus. It's like an argument over "what is art". It goes nowhere.

I am interested in the technical ideas from the discussion here, and what they might develop into. The kind of things that drew me to software such as iClone and Moviestorm was the "canned" walks and lip-sync.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

rampa (3/1/2015)

I've already asked the forum moderators to warn PSD and to do something about it, as it is obvious he has decided to pollute this thread and troll around.

Unfortunately it seems Reallusion forum rules do not apply to some peoples here :angry:

By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago

ok, but actually, i wasn't attacking....i was sharing information from other directors and animators that do the same thing.

but for rampa, i'll leave it alone :)

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

which btw, you have a hit idea, but i'm not going to tell you which or explain to you why because you have been so gosh darn argumentative! so good luck with that.

Self-aware people know what they talk about.

When we present ideas to VC's, TV executives, we reveal enough to have their attention in the very first 5 minutes, but do not reveal the complete details. The devil lies in the details and execution.

Words are used deliberately for the intended impact, not casually. They are by design, not by chance.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

planetstardragon (3/1/2015)

ok, but actually, i wasn't attacking....i was sharing information from other directors and animators that do the same thing.

but for rampa, i'll leave it alone :)

Thank you Planet! :)

I do always try to be mindful of what I post, and am glad that didn't set off alarms. I always encourage sharing of ideas, and am glad to see you, and anyone adding contributions that move a topic forward.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

I am interested in how other users in this forum integrate their animations together, as this is one of the most difficult aspects for me using this kind of software.

Feel free to share your expertise here, as animation is not my strongest suite. ;)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

To sum up a bit what has been said so far:

1) Among some professionals around here there is clearly an intention to create commercial productions based on "machinima" (or "Rapid Production Tools") tools, including iClone.

2) Depending on the style of the productions, different kinds of issues arise. Realistic or "Plausible Realistic" rendering type of productions are directly confronted to current softwares issues and showstoppers, as it is clearly the case, currently, with iClone. Yet at the same times, those issues are easy to correct and we depend on the Reallusion good will to fix those. Will it takes weeks, months or years ? Nobody knows.

3) "Rapid Productions" represent a new kind of productions that could cut the costs by at least 3, if not 5 to 10 of the current TV series or even movies production cost.

4) Those full 3D productions made with "Rapid Production" tools are not here to replace existing type of productions like live action or cartoonish productions, they simply represent an alternative, something new, something different.

5) There is a certain level of quality to reach to be accepted by the professional industry and probably by the main stream audience. It is unclear yet where this level of quality should be set, but one key point that should serve as a reference is having "working characters", that is characters able to move an audience through their performances. The goal is not to create "indistinguishable from reality" characters, but plausible enough characters in the same way we talk about plausible enough rendering.

6) As animating by hand (beyond puppeteering or for small adjustments) is clearly not possible in iClone as there is no curve editor and no rigging possibility, it is obvious mocap will be the tool of choice for animation in this kind of productions. In fact we don't even talk about animation anymore, we just want motions. These productions wont be part of the "animation industry" but will set their own industry.

7) These new kind of productions can't be funded the usual way, new ways must be found or created. Corporate brands, crowdfunding, remunerated youtube channels like, etc.. lots of new ways to explore to help be free from traditional media/funding organisms dictatorship, until those have no way but to consider these kind of productions as valuable as any others.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

@rampa, this is probably a bit off topic, but that's how this thread has turned out anyway.

Animation is a struggle for me as well, but it has to be done. Most of the time I have a screenplay and I then try to imagine what the action should be at a certain point in the story.

Once you know what the action will be, you then decide how much of it you actually want to show. I read a quote somewhere talking about the timing of a scene (or a fragment): "It's like a party, you arrive late (when it is in full swing) and leave early (before it turns bad or boring)."

In other words, you don't have to show a complete linear progression of someone arriving in a car, exciting the car, ringing the doorbell, entering after the door is opened, etc. This slows down the pace of your film and especially for a short subject wastes time.

On the other hand, if there is significant action then you may choose to not interrupt the flow. In that case though, you will change camera angles to keep things dynamic. The camera is of course an important participant. There's always glitches in iClone animation, and the camera is your friend in not showing them. Also, anything that's not in view doesn't have to be animated and can be also repositioned if necessary.

What I like about iClone and the camera switching option is that you can easily get an idea whether the timing looks right or not. Now some do a full length rendering of a scene with different cameras. The advantage of this approach is that you have more options to edit. In my case I have to go back and rerender with different settings of the camera switch.

I hope this begins to answer your question...

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

animagic (3/1/2015)

@rampa, this is probably a bit off topic, but that's how this thread has turned out anyway../..

I would say that's not a reason to keep it off-topic ;)

But anyway, in a forum where there is quite some aggressiveness towards professionals and where some believe they know the Truth about everything while being noobs from their own pov, this is to be expected.

As long as I believe using iClone is still a viable solution because Reallusion hopefully will, sooner or later, fix the major issues that stop us going further, I'll try to continue, as I believe some peoples here are listening and are interested, even though they don't participate.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/1/2015)

grabiller (3/1/2015)

Those are not artistic arguments but that sums up pretty well the technical pipeline idea, yes.

Except in my case I would like to try some kind of puppeteering system for facial, but at first I admit mocap will be much faster and straight forward.

In any case, on the technical side, we are left with two major issues:

1) It is unclear how to import mocap facial animations into iClone. I've tested some fbx provided by some facial mocap system provider without success. However I've recently discovered (don't remember where) that there is a thing with the used fbx version, where facial animation would be imported if the fbx version is lower than 2011. But I don't have access to facial mocap animations saved in fbx version older than 2011. Perhaps someone does.

2) How to workaround iClone rendering showstopper issues if Reallusion does not fix those.

Not much, but we still have to solve these issues.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

Will not Iclone bring in facial mo captures with the FBX ?
If not have you thought of using facial morphs ? I mean if you can not get the facial mo caps into Iclone from any given FBX file you could use a external program such as Zbrush to build a morph library That will come into Iclone nicely.

There may be a better cheaper option that brings in a fully animated FBX file and allows you to export the facial morphs.

It might be a good work around.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

In any case, on the technical side, we are left with two major issues:

1) It is unclear how to import mocap facial animations into iClone. I've tested some fbx provided by some facial mocap system provider without success. However I've recently discovered (don't remember where) that there is a thing with the used fbx version, where facial animation would be imported if the fbx version is lower than 2011. But I don't have access to facial mocap animations saved in fbx version older than 2011. Perhaps someone does.

2) How to workaround iClone rendering showstopper issues if Reallusion does not fix those.

Not much, but we still have to solve these issues.

I am sure RL can't ignore / resist import of the facial animation to ICLONE for long.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

It is unclear how to import mocap facial animations into iClone

According to Swooop , 3dxchange 4.0 was the last version to import bones mocap facial. After this version the feature was removed.
My pipeline is to use the 3dxchange custom in the puppet facial animation. It gives 6x4 specific
facial behavior per character. Not so bad.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

The issue is not importing shapes, the issue is importing the animations.

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

../..There may be a better cheaper option that brings in a fully animated FBX file and allows you to export the facial morphs../..

Yes through what i explained a few pages ago with FACS.

Instead of transmitting the topology deformation, you transmit the "intentions".

There is already a standard that exist exactly for this purpose: MPEG-4 Facial & Body Animation. If Reallusion conformed to this international standard (ISO14496) then a lot of issue would be solved. Facial Mocap systems would then talk seamlessly with iClone.

It would work like MIDI for audio. Instead of sending the actual instrument audio you just send the "intentions", that is the note, the volume, the length, the vibrato, modulo values, etc.. and at the other end you re-synthesize the audio.

In our case, the actual facial expression animations would be re-synthesized from the current character existing embedded shapes library, simply by sending MPEG-4 messages from a facial mocap system (or puppeteering system) to iClone.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

You may have hit a hit an impasse wih Iclone then, RL may well implement the MPEG option but when or if is the question. You are very likely to see a better renderer on the horizon but no time line on when.

The other issue as I see it is Iclones core audience of hobbiest film makers, the more pro options that are asked for the more this group are pushed out due to price increas, so a good solution is a clear distinct Pro version with a pro price tag.

I hope there is room and enough call for this to happen while keeping the core users as happy as the pros and that the pro version is still cheap enough to make it a cost effective alternative to Maya...or even Maya light

If none of these issues can be addressed any time soon can you find use of Iclone to achieve your goal ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

../..The other issue as I see it is Iclones core audience of hobbiest film makers, the more pro options that are asked for the more this group are pushed out due to price increas, so a good solution is a clear distinct Pro version with a pro price tag.

I hope there is room and enough call for this to happen while keeping the core users as happy as the pros and that the pro version is still cheap enough to make it a cost effective alternative to Maya...or even Maya light../..

We already have a iClone "PRO" version. We don't need Maya. If there is room for a Kinect Mocap plugin or a IndigoRT plugin then there is room for any enhancement to iClone, including a new mocap one (already announced for NoItom), and why not for facial mocap.

bluemidget666 (3/1/2015)

../..If none of these issues can be addressed any time soon can you find use of Iclone to achieve your goal ?

Nope.

That's why I didn't used iClone in production since 2008. Still waiting.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

I think we need to re-visit sw00000p's 3DX 4 concept.

3DX4 did not support facial mocap specifically, it just used an FBX model whatever its bones were. When 3DX5 came along, anything head bone and beyond in the chain was "reserved". I think it looks at the skeleton on import, compares it with some internal tables of bone names and layouts, and reserves the proper bones for doing the facial bone morphs.

My proposed test of a solution was to have an FBX that had the "facial" bones for animation below the expected head bone in the chain. EG: If the head bone were actually the nub at the top of the head, you would have a structure that went neck1, neck2, "face bones", head.

Does that sound reasonable to anyone?

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

I think "hobbyists" are not necessarily a homogenous group that all have the same requirements for the program.

I don't do animation as a profession, so technically I fall in the hobbyist category. However, I've used iClone since 1.52 and have seen the capabilities of the program grow. Mostly, users from that early time have grown with it, whatever their status ("pro" or not). So I wouldn't want the development of iClone being curtailed out of fear of losing the "core" group, whoever they are.

A program such as Poser, which sort of falls within the same prosumer category, has evolved as well.

Of course, new features would have to make sense in the overall concept of iClone, whatever that is.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

When I talk about a distinct pro version over hobbiest versions I mean a version that has a tool set most just will not need. Like networking, one click sending a project to a external computer for rendering, basically all the features A animation studio would need.

When we talk about Iclone Pro we are not really talking about Iclone aimed at professional animators with a truely pro tool set, we are just talking about the beefed up version of Iclone.

As such most of us use Iclone pro, if a truely pro version came out that had all the tools a animation studio needed the price tag would reflect this and it would have tool most of us just would never need.

This is what I mean by a distinct PRO version.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

@rampa

If you have daz, you can make the experience. Anim a genesis face character with the facial bones in daz(not morph). Export it as fbx. In 3dxchange , select NO when asking to auto-convert in a non-standard character but import the animation. Select convert to non-human. When select the animation in the perform the facial anim is playing. Export in Iclone with imotion cheked.
In Iclone select the perform motion and it works. So the only way today to import facial mocap
in iclone is to import bones facial animation as perform (but not morph) and select it in Iclone.

I don't know if that's clear :blink:

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

mtakerkart (3/2/2015)

It is clear, thanks. :)
When I was testing this a bit, I used a Makehuman model, because there is a complete set of facial bones, in the nightly downloads from their site.

I don't have a way to do any facial mocap, or retarget to existing facial mocap. It would be great if RL had an option to re-target facial bones instead of using morphs (mesh or bone).

By alemar - 11 Years Ago

hi intersting topic guys.
Low cost production was the reason to me to bought a IClone license years ago, since 2.5 version.
I had done a serie for Cartoon Network already, Pixcodelics ,and 3 animations films for home video market before bought IClone.I want to work alone or with one or two people... nothing more.I think I could do all this films with IClone today...
Since then I 've been following IClone evolution, and I think we are very near to get a good level to produce TV series.I never get founds to make a serie with IClone, but I think I'm near with that...eheheh,well many things changed in this market since Pixcodelics, but I used IClone a lot for advertising .

By warlord720 - 11 Years Ago

iClone accounts for a large portion of my freelance income but very little of the work is final production. It's almost all previz... storyboarding and working out actor placement on live shoots or using it to help sell a project. I don't work in the sales area but I do know that iClone productions have sold a few pilots. However...none of these actually hit wide distribution for reasons outside of iClone. Some just sucked too... don't know how they ever sold it but for me work is work... the job still pays either way.

I'm working on some kickstarter type of videos now but none would be final production or seen by the general public past the fundraising stage and I hope the budgets allow us to go heavy into post work to change the final look. The problem here is this type of work requires a higher level than previz so it takes longer. In previz you can place boxes and actors and it will work if you are in a hurry. Scale is not a problem to a live set or an experienced 3D'er as there are ways to work around that.

While iClone can generate income... until the render is improved... as stated by others here... it will have to fight for every niche it occupies but those niches are growing by leaps and bounds.

The viewing public is spoiled to Pixar type renders unless it's specific circumstances. If you aren't in one of those circumstances then you won't get many eyeballs to the demo/pilot even if you send a skilled and determined sales team to present it.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

UE4 just went totally free!

This might be a good rendering option if you use 3DXchange Pipeline for export. Can you export most of a scene by parenting everything to one object and exporting that object?

https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/ue4-is-free

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

rampa (3/2/2015)

There is definitely something worth experimenting here.

What I have in mind though is to start from the XML scene description file generated by the iClone IndigoRT plugin instead of going the 3DXchange path. This would give much more flexibility for processing and auto conversion through some custom tool that will get the XML file as input and generate whatever needed for the UE4 engine.

By justaviking - 11 Years Ago

@grabiller,

Thanks for starting this thread. It sure is opening up a lot of topics and conversation. I'm just now finally catching up on this thread.

[quote]animagic (2/6/2015)

It is instructive, I find, to show your movies to "ordinary" people, not geeks like us.

I have encountered a wide range of responses to videos, which admittedly tend to be on the lower-end of the scale for "technical" quality.

One day I showed my wife my latest WIP build, and she immediately started to point out everything wrong. The feet slid, he turned funny, the lip sync was off, he grabbed a prop funny, that's bad prop, why is the shadow bad... and on and on. She was so busy making comments like that, that she basically missed the movie. That response was atypical of her, as she's usually very supportive. She didn't intend to be mean, and frankly none of what she pointed out was news to me, but I was surprised that she ripped it to shreds like that. (She did like the video and was supportive, it was just that one time that was a huge anomaly)

On the same project, some people loved it and had the responses I would dream about. The laughed at the right places, loved the story, everything. They knew there were technical flaws, but weren't bothered by them in the least.

But for my videos, I'd say about half the people "tolerate" them, but don't really understand them. They're not live action, they're not a theater play performed my high school students, they're not movie-theater quality... so the just don't get it.

Lastly, it's also interesting to find out how I might sweat over some issue, and the audience doesn't care. Sometimes it is because I was successful. Other times it's an indication that I may have been better off putting my effort elsewhere.

In the end, I mostly do my videos for my own enjoyment, just like people who enjoy gardening while others simply buy vegetables at the local market.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

justaviking (3/4/2015)

......I mostly do my videos for my own enjoyment, just like people who enjoy gardening while others simply buy vegetables at the local market.

Come to think of it, making movies "leisurely" could be a good thing when I stop being competitive ! It could be a nice old age hobby !

Thanks for triggering the thought.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

Updating the facial mocap idea:

A stumbling block AFAIK is that avatar bones cannot be translated, only rotated. I'm under the possibly erroneous belief that for bone-based facial mocap, the bones must translate.

The prop bones can be translated, so if importing your own character, its possible to create a prop version. A prop head frankensteined to an avatar body might just do the trick, and would end up being seamless if constructed and aligned carefully.

That way, the existing animation library could be used for avatar animation up to the head.

By justaviking - 11 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/27/2015)

My grandson plays the game, when he's not playing the game he is watching some one playing the game...

That describes my older son exactly.

He can spend hours watching other people's recorded gameplay.

He also loves listening to narration about the gameplay, usually mocking the game or exploiting some sort of "fail" (such as the character inverts, so his head in on the ground, and he looks funny when running around).

Part of that attraction is everything comes in 5 to 10-minute chunks. He can watch short clips for 3 hours, but it's difficult to convince him to sit down and watch a 110-minute movie.

As for creating a market and getting on TV and stuff like that...

A lot of crap is successful because of the marketing, not the actual merits of the show (in my opinion), especially when talking about stuff targeted to 5-to-15 year olds. It's heavily advertised on their own network. You see merchandise. You get the toys in the kids meal at the fast food restaurant. Without a huge multi-million dollar push like that, how do you become successful on TV?

We talk about technical quality. We talk about the value of story. Can anyone explain why a show like Fish Hooks gets air time? https://www.google.com/#q=disney%20fish%20hooks

By justaviking - 11 Years Ago

Re: Tron, Blair Witch Project, Blade Runner.... (way back on page 7 or 8 - I'm still catching up)

I believe The Wizard of Oz was also a bit of a flop at the time of release, and not well received by the critics. Now it's a classic.

If anyone figures out the magic formula for success, forget about iClone. Become a producer! You'll be rich soon enough if you can consistently produce highly profitable movies.

By justaviking - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/1/2015)

[quote][b]"Why bother creating realistic 3d movies or tv series when you can just shoot on set with actors ?"

Because we can ? Well, that's not enough, that does not "sell".

In the professional environment I'm working on there is always that concern about the artistic benefit doing it in 3d instead with actors:
"Actors will always outperform 3d avatars!"
"Real sets will always be better than 3d sets!"

On the other hand:

Snow White
Sleeping Beauty
Shrek
Cars
Finding Nemo
Big Hero 6
Lion King
Flintstones
Scooby Doo
Star Wars Clone Wars

"Better" is subjective. Has anyone watched Ishtar lately? It was live action.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

justaviking (3/4/2015)

grabiller (3/1/2015)

On the other hand:

Snow White
Sleeping Beauty
Shrek
Cars
Finding Nemo
Big Hero 6
Lion King
Flintstones
Scooby Doo
Star Wars Clone Wars

"Better" is subjective. Has anyone watched Ishtar lately? It was live action.

The question comes up ONLY when the budget is moderate.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 11 Years Ago

@justaviking
Regarding the "notification" by the audience of the issues that may be present in a production:

I believe it depend on the state of mind of the audience and also the genre of the production.

Clearly, if we talk about an audience who paid for their place in a theater, It is quite clear they will be less tolerant about technical issues (unless it is on purpose for some kind of parody).

If you show the same movie to your friends and they know you are the producer/director they will be much more forgiving.

But if you try to frighten your friends at home with an "Alien" like movie full of issues, they will probably laugh all the long and wont be frighten a bit, even if they know you did it. It will become implicitly a parody because of the issues.

In short, if the content if more important than the treatment, issues will be more easily forgiven.

(documentary, historical movie, drama about some community or decease or social issue, etc.. comedy and parody of course, etc..)

But not all movies are about content, lot are about the treatment and performances, and those are easily ruined by the smallest issue that wake you up from the dream, the poesy, the tension, the atmosphere, etc..

Personally, I love Sci-Fi, and Sci-Fi is typically a genre that does not suffer issues when you try to make your environments, your characters, your stories, etc.. credible. Or else you easily ends up with a taste of buck rodgers instead of blade runner for instance. Or it simply becomes some kind of parody.

By justaviking - 11 Years Ago

grabiller (3/4/2015)

Clearly, if we talk about an audience who paid for their place in a theater, It is quite clear they will be less tolerant about technical issues

100% agree. The expectation is completely different when you pay.

Also, I suspect people respond differently if I show them my work (especially if I'm in the room with them), or if they come across it some other way. If I'm in the room, if nothing else, they'll probably feel compelled to watch the whole clip.

About a "Pro" version of iClone...

I can see at least two levels of iClone being marketed. I would be skeptical of three, but I suppose it's possible.

The main purpose of a "lesser" version is to enable a lower price-point that attracts a larger user-base. It should still be functional software. (You can have a "basic" car with 2-wheel drive, and a "pro" car with 4-wheel drive. But the basic car is still fine for going to the store most of the time.)

The exact place where you draw the line will always be debatable, but I would imagine things like this being differentiators:

Curve editing (still waiting for it)
Ability to edit the visemes on the timeline

But you need "basic" timeline access, even in the basic version, in my opinion

Ability to export objects/avatars

A person could learn iClone and could make a lot of basic animations. Then if the person yearns to make videos like he sees other people doing, then he upgrades his iClone and his skills to a higher level.

The larger "basic" user base and the higher price of the "pro" version both help fund the development and growth of iClone.

By bluemidget666 - 11 Years Ago

I think it's more likely that added PRO tools would be supplied through plugins, keeps everyone happy and you don't pay for what you will not use.

By hattori kun - 11 Years Ago

rampa (3/4/2015)A prop head frankensteined to an avatar body might just do the trick, and would end up being seamless if constructed and aligned carefully.

That way, the existing animation library could be used for avatar animation up to the head.

I've tried this last week but for another reason.
I hid the original head by its opacity and replaced the head with another completely different head from another item. A world of pain to animate having to keep track of two items(head and body) and keep them consistent so that the head replacement would not shift its location from the body during animation. :D
If you succeed in an easier way would be great to know.
The reason I tried that is because I have identical heads that I created for different characters but 3dx can't apply the same viseme profile because it doesn't support relative morphs and strictly follows vertex order for the whole avatar. So with identical heads with different bodies I still had to redo the viseme profiling per character. A bit time consuming without support for relative morphs in 3dx.

By Rampa - 11 Years Ago

hattori kun (3/5/2015)

Modular heads maybe? Like the G5's?. It fails with any difference though! I feel your pain here, as it's happened to me too! :)

Here's a quick and crude test with a mocap test I grabbed off Blender. It's only a test for motion, and I did not make it. I converted the prop (just the head) with its animation to a non-human avatar and was able to export it to iClone. Then I linked it to the existing head bone. If I were building it from scratch, the non-human "head" avatar would only be the face, teeth, and eyes extracted from my non-standard avatar.

By Mark McKinney - 11 Years Ago

With respect to the speed of production needed to make a 'series' of shorts for TV or Web consumption - has anyone else tried the 48hourfilm project? - I have been using Iclone now for several years to make my submissions for the Washington and Baltimore 48hr contests and have been selected for the 'best of' screenings several times - even won the audience award once

Just added Brekel Pro V2 to the MOCAP workflow and will use it this year in my submission - I was hoping the Brekel ProFace might be the next step above Viseme (not that I am not happy with it) so I could get more emotion out of my actors digital selves without me going back for yet another pass refining the expression after the Viseme or puppeting with direct puppet.

thanks for the thread - but I will never get back the 30 minutes of my life I spent getting here through all the arguments

v/r

Mark M

By Keith_MPS - 11 Years Ago

I've always felt that the limiting factor to machinema and iClone was facial animation. When I played LA Noire (Rockstar Games), I realized that a realistic 3d animated series was feasible. The facial animation is key to having a well-rounded character without needing on-the-nose dialogue.

Until low-cost facial animation reaches the level of LA Noire, I think it will be too difficult to get audiences to connect with realistic 3d characters.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Mark McKinney (3/10/2015)

Just added Brekel Pro V2 to the MOCAP workflow and will use it this year in my submission - I was hoping the Brekel ProFace might be the next step above Viseme (not that I am not happy with it) so I could get more emotion out of my actors digital selves without me going back for yet another pass refining the expression after the Viseme or puppeting with direct puppet.

What is your Pipeline like with Proface and ICLONE ?

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

gnasche (3/10/2015)

Agree.

But action thrillers, Fantasy, Sci-fi could get away with slightly lower threshold.

BTW here's the pipeline for La Noire :

Few posts below I talked about direct recording for facial motion capture, they are doing it same way. But they are using massive 32 camera setup for 360 degree facial motion capture.

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

But action thrillers, Fantasy, Sci-fi could get away with slightly lower threshold

Why???? Does that mean this Art are an underculture?

Seriously I made some tests with faceshift and the result is outstanding , all subtil mouvement was recorded. Yes it is 800$ !!! And the big problem for Iclone is that it is Blendshape animation wich coud'nt be imported. Today there is no techy problem for convincing facial mocap.There's only motivation problem.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

mtakerkart (3/11/2015)

But action thrillers, Fantasy, Sci-fi could get away with slightly lower threshold

Why???? Does that mean this Art are an underculture?

No.

When we plan any story based animation, we must think of the audience like the people in advertising do. The creative people in advertising always think of the audience and their behavioural pattern and plan the creative strategy accordingly.

In the above segments, the audience think themselves with special taste and belong to an exlusive club. They are "pre-primed" with their expectation what they would get from the storyline. They watch these because they specially love these genres. So if the storyline is good enough, they are forgiving about the slightly lower threshold on the quality of animation.

This particular debate can be long. But I hope the essence is clear.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

La Noir definitely sets a benchmark for using digital actors in a detective series with great facial expression and realistic motion. A great deal to learn from this series.

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/13/2015)

La Noir definitely sets a benchmark for using digital actors in a detective series with great facial expression and realistic motion. A great deal to learn from this series.

Thanks for that. I just watched the trailer, and I see what you mean. What's interesting is that it has a gamy look, but the faces are very expressive.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Check this episode. I learnt a lot from this one. I bet you will enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZpBXj4mjVc&list=ELwcU3vouiprk&index=10

[ sorry embedding is disabled ]

The guys started doing this series in 2004 !!!
[ Released in 2011 ]

In 2015, we are still debating and waiting for some tech wizard to come to our rescue and ENABLE us do stuff like this !

By mark - 11 Years Ago

Oh WOW! That's very cool!!!

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/11/2015)

[quote]
When we plan any story based animation, we must think of the audience like the people in advertising do. The creative people in advertising always think of the audience and their behavioural pattern and plan the creative strategy accordingly.

If one is speaking to YouTube audience, pure expression, sure, follow one's whims.

If one is speaking to Netflix or local audience, or making specific educational/ informational statements, research and plan plan plan. There is no way around knowing who one is speaking to. No random self-indulgence will help in these cases.

Whether one earns money or fame from the above, is less relevant to the ART of communicating IDEAS. That is the COMMON GROUND.

Thus, all are artists, all above endeavers are CREATIVE. There are no clear line between creatives, pros, noobs, whatnots, here on indie production apps forums. All are artists with different use for the same creative tool.

3D animation production quality wise? Is iClone capable?

Pixar, Tintin, Frozen, no. See Blender for that purpose on the cheap.

FarCry 4, almost there today, given the excellent Apex Cloth implementation. With PBR, will be there SOON.

LA Noire? Totally possible since 3DX5. Subject to animation skill AND WRITING SKILL.

But the ultimate thing we are all after here, SPEED and WORKFLOW?

Still unnecessarily more tedious than ever. And that is why we're still looking and complaining and brainstorming for better way of working.

That's my conclusion as a non-pro non-profit hoping to establish pro-level workflow speed.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Bellatrix (3/15/2015)

But the ultimate thing we are all after here, SPEED and WORKFLOW?

Still unnecessarily more tedious than ever. And that is why we're still looking and complaining and brainstorming for better way of working.

That's my conclusion as a non-pro non-profit hoping to establish pro-level workflow speed.

Be it Multimedia, SW, ITES or Animation, I look for the workflow that would help me do the projects at 1/10th of the market cost.

This has been my guiding principle all my life. And it has worked for me.

Hoping it would work again with my future projects.

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

[b]prabhatM (3/15/2015)
Be it Multimedia, SW, ITES or Animation, I look for the workflow that would help me do the projects at 1/10th of the market cost.

Regardless of which market the product aims at, 3D animation market cost = (asset manpower + render farm size) x project scale.

Thanks to 3D game dev and GPU based render, here we are, one major hurdle crossed.

LA Noire costs between $50-80million over many years, mommy government paid half of it. Render and asset quality "2008 gamish", but proper screenwriting and mocap more than delivered the end goal - to communicate story and entertain. It proves one thing - it is not just production quality that matters, loud and clear.

Point is, iClone 5 can deliver LA Noire production quality.

LA Noire = 3D version of The Simpsons. Cheap aesthetics, canned in-game animation, top notch writing/ acting/ directing/ staging. Beats latest Cryengine Cinebox demo offering in liveliness alone. It can be done in iClone gen5 now, as long as there is no oceanic and window glass reflection scene. Subjected to crazy amount of game asset creation, voice actor hiring, mocap cleaning and content management, of course.

Which means, manpower cost. Or, speed modeling super power, speed animation editing workflow in between iClone and 3DX energy cost, and, time cost.

The myth is iClone saves time. Truth is, working in "machinima" environment can be more TIME-cost consuming. Time is also money.

Also, if we want real-time window reflection and car paint that reflects city buildings, if we want UE4 quality real-time GI with no tedious baking, not possible. I cannot do without all these "basics". I will use iClone for 3D Family Guy toons.

But for Tintin toons, no. Possible only via Indigo. Meanwhile Indigo integration remains a joke, made more "last year ish" by Daz Studio 4.8's latest iRay PBR render capability. Free too.

If Daz Studio gets physics...game over in this zone at least for another 2 years.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

LA Noir in ICLONE / DAZ :
=================

It would be an interesting case study. Let us clearly list out what is doable or not doable. Then work out a probable Pipeline.

Let me begin. You guys can add up your thoughts. Let's keep the whole thing crisp.

DOABLE :

1) Basic scene look.
2) Character animation.
3) Driving around.
4) Basic crime spot investigation
5) Environment lighting with ICLONE6.

NOT DOABLE OR NOT SO EASY:

1) Large OPEN world - City Level Assets. ICLONE / DAZ will crash. I never enjoyed watching a car just being driven around the city so much like in LA Noir!
2) Lifting the dead body's clothes and pulling out the objects.
3) Unfolding and folding of the documents as easily shown in the episodes. Though I think with addition of bones to these props, it's kind of doable.
4) Tyre marks when the brakes are applied. The marks following the turns of the wheels. Though I think it's kind of doable in AE.
5) Chasing, Catching up, Pushing the guy down and matting him down on the ground.
6) Detailed Facial Expression.

====
The list can go on. But something good enough to start the discussion.

I would also love some comments on the HAVOK Physics engine that was used in LA Noir.

I would also love Mark doing a small LA Noir clip with ICLONE and do a tutorial !!

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

LA Noire is a HUGE Open World game. IClone cannot meet that. DS can probably handle 4x weight. Carrara, no sweat, perfect for large scene, great array and instancing too.

Everything else you mentioned can be achieved with theatre set style cheats and compositing.

What we are after is basically dynamic-ism. Real-time tyre marks, world objects that response to hard and soft forces. The Sims world with fully implemented physics.

Daz Studio has NO physics, just very limited soft dynamics and clothing collision. So you waste 90% of time faking and troubleshooting collision issues.

IClone is way more responsive as a environment and characters are more AI intelligent. Cars you get to drive, just not very far. But sufficient for 2 LA Noire city blocks. Composit it.

The only tool in this vicinity that has easy character setup, sufficient physics and dynamics, poly handling power AND render quality is Carrara. I can make tyre marks and shattered glass and reflective shop windows on the fly.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Bellatrix (3/15/2015)

The only tool in this vicinity that has easy character setup, sufficient physics and dynamics, poly handling power AND render quality is Carrara. I can make tyre marks and shattered glass and reflective shop windows on the fly.

How's the rendering time in Carrara ? I am sure ICLONE would be way ahead.

With large rendering time, the purpose will be defeated.

With the help of some scripts, DAZ rendering time could be reduced drastically with acceptable quality.

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/15/2015)
How's the rendering time in Carrara ? I am sure ICLONE would be way ahead.

With large rendering time, the purpose will be defeated.

With the help of some scripts, DAZ rendering time could be reduced drastically with acceptable quality.

Carrara rendering time of Genesis is faster than DS 3delight. Carrara also has amazing instancing tools with super randomizing powers, which saves mid-large scene setup and probably 500% rendering time.

Comparing iClone with Carrara...

Real-time OpenGL. On par. Wait, no. Carrara's point lights have soft shadow settings. IClone wins the viewport feedback though. Carrara's preview viewport is unresponsive to changes.

Native Render. Carrara has amazing mesh lights. IClone, none.

Plugin Renderers. Carrara's Octane is the most stable compared to DS and Poser's Octane. Very fast and well-integrated into Carrara, mini realtime viewport in every rooms, unlike the clunky ICindigo workflow. Carrara also has GPU-based LuxusCore in beta currently free. I have no need for these yet, happy with the native render speed. Shaders very easy to use too. Not missing IClone Substance which I bought.

Currently Carrara's native and Bullet physics work nicely out of the box. Collision with terrain and world object as good as iClone. Cloth physics is not as user-friendly as iClone6 but use-able.

Best thing is the dynamic STRAND hair, as in fiber hair. No need to use cloth for hair if you find the hair trans map process not worth the time.

Physics and collisions overall on par.

I also plan to downscale Genesis's map size for faster render.

IClone and Carrara is not the same kind of tool though. Animating characters in Carrara is not as fun as in iClone. You have to set up a lot of stuff yourself, IK chains and puppet sets. But animating everything else, tyre marks or school of fish or birds, easier and FASTER.

I do see a lot of cross app users these days on both forums.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

If we were to keep ICLONE as the main animation and rendering app for LA Noir kind of projects, do you recommend some other tools to supplement ? Let us keep specific needs of LA Noir project.

Note: The focus is LA Noir in ICLONE or DAZ. Let's say ICLONE.

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

Unless you're good at hand animating face expressions to voice acting, you'll need facial animation mocap. Or wait for iClone to turn out one. For me puppeteering facial muscles will do.

You will no doubt need crazy amount of scene assets, the single largest expenditure of most 3D game devs. Which means a modeling + UV-capable app that works seamlessly with 3DXchange. I recommend ZBrush for the masochist, but Carrara can do equal job as Sketchup Pro and more (3D paint specular/ opacity maps too which ZBrush cannot do!)

Maybe a tool to rig clothing if you don't want to depend on store products only. According to Wendy Carrara rigged clothing imports nicely via 3DXchange.

That's it. Rendering quality wise IClone is capable of everything else.

Daz Studio can do a lotIClone can and more (rigging, pro-level native render quality). Except crucial animation needs: custom dynamic clothing, dynamic physics aware environment, easy visual effects.

But LA Noire has no dynamic clothing, just typical conforming clothing. So if LA Noire is good enough for you, iClone is the tool. DS would be an overkill.

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

Another way to work is not to stick to one tool.

Use Carrara for rendering large outdoor scenes. IClone for close ups and indoors with key characters. Composit it.

Compositing tools, Sony's suites are a good match to IClone, comes ready with easy to use but powerful enough NL audio mixing tools. AE is to me an overkill and I also avoid anything subscription based.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Bellatrix (3/15/2015)

Use Carrara for rendering large outdoor scenes. IClone for close ups and indoors with key characters. Composit it.

That could be interesting. Just need to check if the characters look same / similar in both the applications. I think their motion and behaviour will change in both the softwares. The synergy could be difficult. But worth exploring.

[ Though it would be extremely difficult for me as I opt for the Toon shading and they look very different in different softwares.]

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

No need to render characters. Just render the demanding environments, swaying trees, traffics, buildings. Maybe so blurred distance walking human "props". Then you can have the choice of popping the rendered videos as an actual video screen in iClone as you animate your main characters and extras, or composite the two.

These days I think scene budget more like theatre producer. Assets quantity = cost render time and money.

Driving around large game worlds is fun. But if you look at the scene when he walks down stairs into the car, most of it is redundant to the plot anyway. The LA Noire director show that segment because, well, they don't have an asset budget issue. It's all there, so might as well show you "look we have lots of stuff in the scene!".

Nowadays I try not to think machinimator, more budget film maker.

You're the writer anyway, frame the scene according to your whims.

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

Bellatrix (3/15/2015)

Yes, it's worth experimenting. But we must have a distinct workable Pipeline. I will update you on this after testing few scenes.

At this moment, I am trying to create / replicate DELHI city ( India ) somehow for my stories. It's kinda tough. But I am trying to give it a shot. This can help me later with few industrial projects. The city model will come handy.

Yes, I revolve everything around my stories. Usually I have the broad story line in mind. Many a time, a scene is almost generated on the fly as I keep building my assets.

Looking forward to more discussions on the subject.

By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago

City flyover requires arraying and instancing power. IClone is very primitive at that.

Personally I would just write that as a distance side view shot instead of a top down view of a city, cheaper. Then next scene is outdoor, city block closer zoom, avoiding the tedium altogther.

I recall an iClone video tut with fighter jets over large (but anonymous) city and compositing tricks.

But if its about something flying over a recognizable city very closely then Carrara is capable off since 2009 - see YouTube video Dystopia Fly-over

Another video: How to model a cityscape. Also gives an overview of basic modelling, shading and instancing in Carrara. See if it works for you as an iClone companion tool.

By mark - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

I get nowhere near the speed of operation I had with iC5 in iC6 on my current system. With large projects. Looks like I have got to beef it all up to get the same smooth/speedy flow I had with iC5...and not sure if it's just the display cards fault either... but maybe.;)

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

mark (3/15/2015)

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

A patch down the line may help !

BTW what is the system configuration ?

By mtakerkart - 11 Years Ago

I think you overestimate the way how are very large scenes produce.
In movies , they are build layer by layer and composite in a compositing sofware.
In video game they deal with LOD props , you never have full resolution of all you see on screen.
There is only prototype software wich can deal will trillions of polygons.
Iclone 6 have LOD for speedtrees . The "smooth" feature could help but it's not LOD.
I have very good facial result in a fast way but the only thing it's missing for me is specific mocap
and heads behavior relative to the dialog in a fast way. Look at LA noire and imagine all the characters performance whithout any head position or move. It ruins the realistic facial mocap.

By the way for now the behavior with the creators of Neuron mocap is very weird. No update after one week from the GDC... and the price explode....

By mark - 11 Years Ago

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

mark (3/15/2015)

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

A patch down the line may help !

BTW what is the system configuration ?

You should get the gist of it at the bottom of my posts...under my YouTube link promo graphic ;)

By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago

mark (3/15/2015)

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

mark (3/15/2015)

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

A patch down the line may help !

BTW what is the system configuration ?

You should get the gist of it at the bottom of my posts...under my YouTube link promo graphic ;)

How myopic am I !!:D

By animagic - 11 Years Ago

mark (3/15/2015)

prabhatM (3/15/2015)

Has ICLONE 6 improved handling large assets ? Anybody tried a small city level assets in ICLONE ?
Any work around for adding a large open world ( city ) to an ICLONE scene ?

In my experience, iClone 6 relies more on the display card than iClone 5. I was going to build a new system, but due to cost replaced my video card only to a GTX 980 and I have the feeling it made quite a difference. Plenty of video RAM is important too. I have 4GB and it is well-used, so 8GB is not overkill it seems.

By Sifr - 11 Years Ago

Unreal Engine 4 Open World Kite Real-Time Cinematic from Unreal Engine on Vimeo.

UE4 is now free and this is all in realtime.:w00t::w00t:

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

Notice: I'm waking up that thread after 2 years from its last message, because I feel iClone7 is a new milestone in the direction of ideas discussed in the thread.
For those who didn't participated in nor red that thread, I'm not asking you to read the 21 pages, but only the few first messages of the first page at least, if you can.

The idea was to discuss the use of iClone in the context of professional productions, but of alternate 'products', close to the machinima idea but also taking into account alternate production organization, methods, worflows and pipelines, quality threshold and performance.

On the artistic side, the idea is to produce full 3d "plausible realistic" movies or series (Cartoons and NPR rendering are out of the discussion here) with "credible characters". The idea is also to orient the character performances towards motion capture instead of traditional animation (even if it will still be needed) for cost and production speed reasons, but also for "credibility". The goal is not to try to fool the audience to make them believe what they see is real nor that the characters are real humans, but to approach, to find that "threshold" at which the audience will accept what they see as plausible enough, and the characters as credible enough to forget the technology and dive into the stories and performances from which emotions will arise. In a sense, something close to nowadays game cinematics but even more cinematic if I may say so, less game oriented.

On the production side, the idea is to meet the challenge with low budget, indie spirit, the use of alternate products as much as possible, products that are efficient enough and deliver without having to use the traditional set and arsenal of 3D industry high-end (especially high-priced) DCC tools (here we are in the opposite direction of game cinematics).

iClone was spotted to be one of those tools but 2 years ago, iClone still lacked of mandatory features and had too many issues. But there was no alternative, actually. Now there is, iClone7, and the all challenge must be re-evaluated.

Clearly one "fatal" issue with previous iClone versions was the final rendering quality, which until now was not up to the task. This is changing, iClone7 is coming with much improvements with linear workflow, PBR, GI, even anti-aliasing improvement to a point that it appear conceivable to give another shot at this idea.
The second issue was characters performance and credibility. Here too, clearly, now that we have Character Creator, the Neuron mocap system, and the upcoming enhanced facial mocap system, I have great hope at re-evaluating the idea with iClone7.
Last but not least, with the upcoming scripting possibilities and API in iClone7, this will most certainly allow very good integration of iClone and its data into professional pipelines and resolve a lot of data management issues we had with previous versions of iClone.

If you are interested in the idea, then feel free to keep this discussion alive, to share your ideas, suggestions, tests, experimentation, etc..

On my side, for this year 2017, I've waited enough, and I've decided to seriously re-evaluate the all idea with the upcoming iClone7 by working on two essential aspects materialized by 2 test projects, one for each aspect.

1) The first one will be without any human character, on purpose (there will be a robot though). Here the goal will be to test the level of achievable "cinematic experience". Camera work, sets complexity, lighting, animation (other than character performance), compositing and grading, pipeline and workflow, etc..
2) The second one will be character performance oriented, by involving all the mocap arsenal available or soon to be available to iClone7, Kinect, Neuron system, and upcoming iClone7 facial mocap + enhanced morph system too check up to which level we can bring and manage character performance into iClone7.

If you are interested to participate in those experiments, then do not hesitate to contact me. At some point I'll open a thread on the forum, one for each project, so everyone will be able to follow the experience and participate into discussions regarding the involved processes, the results, to give suggestions, propose constructive arguments, etc..

Meanwhile I believe the idea discussed in this thread is worth a new re-evaluation and has never been as close as "possible" than with the arrival of this new version of iClone.

I would really be interested to see if any of you who have participated in this thread 2 years ago have new views on this idea, if your thoughts have evolved, changed - or not - on this subject.
Newcomers are, of course, welcome to share theirs.

Cheers,
Guy.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

I know the Neuron Pro software can capture up to 5 suits at the same time, and the standard software can support 2. Not being someone who has the plugin (or the suit), I have no idea if it supports more than one suit.

I think doing mocap with a suit while wearing a face tracking camera would be fantastic. The facial animation can be loaded in the iC7 plugin after the motion capture, if they cannot run together.

EDIT
I do think that with iC7, we will have a very engine for creating and combining all of these elements, whether or not all the elements originate in iClone. I am thrilled with how much can be done in iClone with the built in tools. This is why it succeeds where others (Render Digimation, Cinebox) have not really caught on.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

From @mtakerkart experiment it seems the plugin support at least 2 suits at the same time. If more is needed for specific scenes I see no problem doing the mocap outside of iClone with the Neuron software alone, then inject the animation into iClone. It is certainly nice to be able to do it directly into iClone though.

Regarding capturing mocap and facial at the same time, it is certainly a great option, but I'm not sure it is a guaranty of having the best results.

The idea of the pipeline discussed in this thread also contains the concept of re-using assets as much as possible. It makes sense when you film a cop tv serie based in LA, the audience is not surprised to see over and over again down town LA and other areas. Why this wouldn't work for full 3D "sci-fi" stories for instance, if you have access to some 'Dystopia' univers assets - of course under a permissive licence - several stories, films, series could take place into that same univers even if the stories and characters are unrelated. This is a key element for low budget productions, and producers should start thinking about this and get used about the idea. Well, mocap assets should follow the same principle as much as possible. If you start to mocap every scenes of every production then you will end up doing Avatar ; ) Of course needed motions should be captured, but after a while, some motions should be easily re-composed from the library of mocap assets.

Facial mocap is a different beast, because it is much more context sensitive, especially with the lipsync aspect of the facial performances. Yet technically I believe it is much faster to capture facial performances than global body because you can seat at a desk all day and record a lot. Or you can even simply record yourself at home on your iPhone and process the "capture" later on. Yet, the person doing mocap (stuntman for instance) may not be very efficient for facial performances and vice-versa. So for facial performances I see no reason for not doing the capture for the all performance of all characters.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

@grabiller: As one of the former participants of this thread and after mulling this over for a few days, I would like to express my interest to participate. Although I have had a little success with my latest movie The Third Wish (festival-wise, not money-wise), I still have a lot to learn. I am self-taught as far as filmmaking goes, and the "cinematic experience" I can currently achieve could definitely be further improved. I remember your posts about compositing years ago, and that's an area I would like to know more about. I have Hitfilm 4, but it is mainly unused.

My current project will be a science fiction film (although of a somewhat unusual kind). But it is only in the beginning stages. It's quite ambitious, and I think it would be good for me to have something else to work on. One of my 2017 goals is "learning", and I think your endeavor would fit well into that category.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@animagic
I thank you very much for your interest in that project and adventure.
To me you have always been the wise and appeasing voice of the forum and that would be with great pleasure to team with you, it can only lead to a rich and constructive experience : )

I'll soon post in the "Showcase Yourself" forum a post named "[SUPERMACHINATION] Part #1 - Introduction" that will explain everything. Yet the intent is actually not to "showcase myself", so I wonder if it wouldn't be better to post it into the iClone General forum. I'm not sure about the Reallusion forum policies on this matter.
Perhaps you can already help here, what do you think ?

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

My 2 cents:

Iclone can record 2 characters at a time. BUT Axis can record 5 persons at a time . I really suggest users to record first on axis your 5 characters.
Edit , refine, smooth all the data. THEN record in realtime via broadcast stream in Iclone 2 characters at a time.
For Facial mocap , if I understand it could stream the data via a VIDEO, so doesn't need too to record facial mocap in realtime in Iclone.
In conclusion , A safety setup will be to record in Axis for body , video recorder for face. Then stream in realtime all data in Iclone one layer at a time.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

That is correct about using pre-recorded video. I saw you made a facial mocap helmet. So a phone or tiny camera to capture while performing in the suit would work well. Faceware is quite robust, and works in varying light. I think a well lit room, or outdoors would work just fine without any additional face lighting, based on this video and my own testing with the demo.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

grabiller (2/4/2017)

Well, thank you for the compliment!

As to the best place on the forum, it would actually be nice to have a Project area for things like your initiative. Maybe Peter (RL) can create one. The Showcase section is a bit of a mixed bag, I feel. It is probably best to stay in the iClone General section for now.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

I'm thinking that both a showcase presence here in the forum, and a separate Facebook Group might be the ideal way to deal with this initiative. I think a lot of people here in the forum will be interested in whether or not it can be done, and should have a say in the results. And it can also be quite helpful to have the core creators in their own group for rapid discussion, experimentation, etc.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@animagic
I'm not sure if Reallusion would be interested in such initiative but who knows, I've actually sent a presentation to them, waiting for an answer.
If not then I think you are right, I'll use the General forum.
That said I've received some consistent feedback from several longtime iClone users and I think I still have progresses to make in explaining what the initiative is all about :)
So I'll postpone a little, time for me to figure out a better way to present it and make it much clearer, English being also a difficulty I have to overcome ;)

@rampa
I'm not a big fan of Facebook : / And that doubles the work, maintaining forum threads, maintaining Facebook infos/etc.. Or perhaps if someone is willing to act a the Supermachination Initiative "Community Manager" ? :)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

A few days ago @mtakerkart and I had a Skype session and aside the fact that it was the first time we 'met' ;) it was a very interesting and constructive discussion.

Among all the interesting ideas and subjects we discussed at that time, there is one that is a key concept I would like to comment about here: "Perform, then Shoot".

In the professional industry it is common to decide what will be seen in camera first then to "perform" the action (animate it, capture it, etc..) depending on the camera work done in previz or layouting. This is a way to help evaluating the time and budget needed to accomplish the all movie. For instance, not animating actions not seen in camera, and that makes sense because animators cost a lot. Motion capture facilities cost a lot too. But this approach is also a constraint that can be frustrating on an artistic level. Depending on how the performance was done, you might want to shot the all scene completely differently, or simply "try" something else. Once you have the mocap data, this is quite fast and cheap to do that into iClone directly.

I believe professional producers do not realize that yet. They still enforce the creation of the shots before doing any character performance. This, has to change. Not as a replacement, but as an alternative. If a director has a quite precise idea of what will happen in a scene, then mocap the actors and shoot later! If he has a precise framing idea then he can also decide to shoot first then mocap the actors later. This is a new artistic freedom that has yet to reach professional productions. As iCloners, being professionals, prosumers, hobbyists or whatever, we already have the chance to reach this level of artistic freedom. Then we should use it. Granted we can afford a Neuron mocap system of course. But understand that you get access to it for a fraction of what would charge current mocap facilities (ie 50x more expensive). Perhaps it is time to create iClone mocap facilities clubs, associations, groups or something ;)