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New PC... what to buy ?

Posted By RobertoColombo 12 Years Ago
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RobertoColombo
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Hi all,

the time to change/upgrade my PC is arrived.
iClone is the most demanding application I run today, so I started to look for information that should direct me to the best solution.
I know there have been already several posts about this topic, but opening a new one will not hurt anybody... also will probably be the most updated, considering the speed the PC HW evolves...

I already contacted RL support with the 5 questions reported hereunder and I will publish their answers, on behalf of this community.
Nevertheless, I like to get the opinions of the iClone users.

Consider that the target projects are quite complex, with many props, avatars, and also embedded HD videos.
I hope RL will answer considering also the forthcoming iClone 6 Pro.
My questions:

1. Is it more important to have a faster Graphic Card or a faster CPU ? In other word, given a budget of "100", what would you suggest as the portion to be used for the Graphic Card vs. the one used for the CPU ?

2. How much RAM would you suggest as minimum ? Does any GB above this minimum level make the execution faster ?

3. Which Graphic Card would you recommend and why ?

4. Is a SSD important to speed iClone up ? If it is, what would you suggest as a minimum size ?

5. Is there any advantage or disadvantage when iClone runs on Windows 8 rather than Windows 7 ? The target for Windows 7 is the Professional or Ultimate version. What would you recommend for iClone and why ?

Thanks in advance for your kind suggestions/recommendations

Cheers

Roberto

My PC:
OS: Windows 10 Pro English 64-bit / CPU: Intel i7-9700 3.6GHz / MB: ASUS ROG Strix Z390  RAM: 32GB DDR4 2.6GHz / HD: 2TB+3TB  /  
SSD: 2x512GB Samsung 860 EVO + 1x2TB Samsung
VB: Palit GTX2080 TI GamingPro 11GB / AB: embedded in the MB and VB (audio from the MOTU M4 I/F) / DirectX: 12

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"RobertoColombo (1/20/2014)
Hi all,

the time to change/upgrade my PC is arrived.
iClone is the most demanding application I run today, so I started to look for information that should direct me to the best solution.
I know there have been already several posts about this topic, but opening a new one will not hurt anybody... also will probably be the most updated, considering the speed the PC HW evolves...

I already contacted RL support with the 5 questions reported hereunder and I will publish their answers, on behalf of this community.
Nevertheless, I like to get the opinions of the iClone users.

Consider that the target projects are quite complex, with many props, avatars, and also embedded HD videos.
I hope RL will answer considering also the forthcoming iClone 6 Pro.
My questions:

1. Is it more important to have a faster Graphic Card or a faster CPU ? In other word, given a budget of "100", what would you suggest as the portion to be used for the Graphic Card vs. the one used for the CPU ?

2. How much RAM would you suggest as minimum ? Does any GB above this minimum level make the execution faster ?

3. Which Graphic Card would you recommend and why ?

4. Is a SSD important to speed iClone up ? If it is, what would you suggest as a minimum size ?

5. Is there any advantage or disadvantage when iClone runs on Windows 8 rather than Windows 7 ? The target for Windows 7 is the Professional or Ultimate version. What would you recommend for iClone and why ?

Thanks in advance for your kind suggestions/recommendations

Cheers

Roberto"

You'll probably get as many different configurations suggested as there are PCs out there, Roberto ;)

I purchased the Custom Desktop Tower Unit PC in my Signature in March 2012, which is more than adequate for my particular iClone Workflow. £1000; designed after several weeks of deliberation re; Case, Component Parts etc, for optimum efficiency & Cooling. That, together with a lot of regular PC Good Housekeeping & factoring-in iClone's operational limitations, means that I don't need a High-end Gaming PC. I use iClone for several hours daily. iclone very seldom "Hangs", here..

1) I would wait & see what iC6 Hardware requirements are. It may be directed more towards Intel Haswell CPU integrated 500 GPU, rather than Discrete Video Card.

Intel CPU preferable to AMD, since IMO, iClone is Developed in conjunction with Intel. Like some NLE Programs are. Haswell has Hyper-threading. So - In effect 8 Cores. Unlike your AMD CPU.

Haswell has been Developed to leverage synthetic Human Voice Audio in conjunction with I think eg, NeoSpeech.

2) It depends upon the RAM Type & Rating. I only have the 6GB RAM in my signature, which is Gaming RAM & faster than eg; 8GB Samsung of same rating. Go for 8-12 GB. Anything above that is literally a waste of space, Money & Power, IMO & can be a hinderance rather than an asset.

3) 1) above refers. However I would only have nVidia if iC6 is CUDA enabled. Otherwise AMD/ATI. More than 1GB Vide4o RAM can be a hindrance. iClone won't function correctly with more than 1GB & with  nVidia SLI & ATI Crossfire configurations.

4) Not Editing. Only Load time. SSDs have been proved to be problematical for Video Editing per se. 2 Internal Western Digital 7,500 RPM Caviar Black HDDS are perfectly adequate, IMO. 

5) W8 is a no brainer. W9 is already under Development, to replace it. 

BTW - Choice of Case, MOBO & CPU Heatsink  are very important. I have CoolerMaster Sileo silent 500 Case, Asus Patented MOBO Heatsink Cooling.& Triple Copper HeatPipe CPU Heatsink.

Go to: www.pcspecialist.co.uk & read through all of it, to see the current offerings for Video Editing per se, Tower Units & Component Parts & their descriptions.

No obligation to buy. Just pick their brains for relevant info. There's a lot of good info for those considering a new PC.

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justaviking
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Roberto,

Colour is right. If you ask this question to five people, you'll get ten answers! :P

I'll share my opinion, which will add confusion since I'm going to disagree with Colour on a few points. We do agree on a great many things, but not everything.

GRAPHICS CARD BRAND - I agree with Colour on this. Unless the upcoming iClone6 benefits from CUDA, the ATI cards can be an excellent choice. My son models with Blender, which has a "Cycles" rendering engine, which can use CUDA, so for him Nvidia is an obvious choice.

GRAPHICS CARD MEMORY - I would recommend a minimum of 2GB GPU ("graphics card") memory. I'd recommend shopping for a card with 3GB, or even 4GB if possible. Why? Because you can load more objects (props, avatars, terrain, etc.) with larger texture maps if you have more GPU memory. The models will only increase in size and complexity, so you'll be using more resources two years from now, so always round up.

GRAPHICS CARD CONFIGURATION - A lot of gamers run dual graphics cards. Both ATI and Nvidia have improved that capability over the last few years, but generally you'll be less likely to encounter any instability or incompatibility by running a more powerful SINGLE CARD that if you try to run a dual card configuration (cross-fire for AMD, or SLI for Nvidia). Colour alluded to this also, so we agree on that point. So I recommend a single-card.

GRAPHICS CARD PRICE/PERFORMANCE - The top-end graphics cards mostly allow gamers to push a huge amount of pixels with game quality settings at their highest levels. Even for a gamer, spending over $350 USD does not help you if you only have a single 1920x1080 monitor. But if you have two or three higher-resolution monitors, and you're a gamer, then you might wish for more graphical horsepower. For iClone, I'd think the $250-350 range is a sweet spot, and as I mentioned above, I'd put a premium value on the amount of RAM on the card.

Here is an article summarizing some graphics cards at various price points.

SYSTEM MEMORY (RAM) - For a "mainstream" PC, I would start with 4GB of RAM. For anyone doing "content creation," be it iClone, Blender, video editing, or even heavy Photoshop work, I would immediately increase my recommendation to 8GB. I'm running with 16GB, which was a bit of an indulgence, and frankly I don't think I've actually used more than 6 or 7GB yet, but I decided to get it while I was building my computer.

SSD - We (I) have talked about this a lot lately. I am a total fan of SSDs, and recommend a minimum of ~250GB for your C: drive. Even that will go quickly. You'll need a second drive, and I recommend at least a 1TB hard drive. Given their prices, I'd suggest a 2GB second drive.

One user (Rampart) has been struggling with long load times, and his SSD was getting a lot of the blame, but I believe there are other forces at work. We did some tests, and his SSD is 3 to 30 times faster than his HDD. You can read all about it, including his benchmarks, in THIS THREAD.

CPU - Simply put, faster is better. For heavy users like us, the Intel i7 processors are pretty much the default selection. For casual "web surfers" you can trade between Intel and AMD at any given price point, but Intel has dominated the enthusiast market for several years now.

OPERATING SYSTEM - I have to lean toward Win7. I haven't used Win8 much, and frankly I'm not fond of it. But this is 99% an emotional preference for me. I can't say Win8 would be less stable or anything like that. Win7 will be around for a long time still, so it should be a safe bet. 64-bit, of course.

OTHER - A high-quality power supply and good cooling are also important for overall system stability and longevity.

FINAL COMMENT (for this posting) - I generally disagree with Colour's comments that excess power can lead to issues. Generally speaking, in my opinion, you're far more likely to have issues with an under-powered system.

Sadly, budget always comes into play, but you should be able to buy or assembly a solid system for $800 USD. Especially if you build your own, you can recycle your case and your DVD drive(s) and stuff like that. Once you hit $1,200 any additional cost will probably to unnoticed in terms of iClone performance.



iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Rampa
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I just got a new PC. Intel 4770 and Nvidia GTX 770. Also, Windows 8.1 64 bit. I only went with 8 gig of ram. This was a pre-built Acer at Newegg for a grand. I did not spring for anything fancy, just a good CPU/GPU combo. It runs iClone quite well.

Stick with Intel and Nvidia, in my opinion. Reallusion is a developer partner with Intel, and iClone 6 will benefit from Nvidia PhysX.
RobertoColombo
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Hi guys,

thanks for the detailed reply.
I am not scared to get 100 different answers, because each of them brings some interesting and valid points of view.
I think I won't wait till iClone6 release, as it could happen quite late this year and now I am completely stuck with what project I planned to do and what I can basically do with my old PC, which is nothing... :-(
The real issue is the price: I need to make choices and I want to do it right.
What I haven't figured out yet, also in your answers, is whether the CPU or the video card plays bigger role during the run-time rendering.
Did you do any test to see, during a heavy iClone work-flow, ho much is the CPU and video cards being used ?
This is quite important for me in order to choose the right budget balance.

Cheers

Roberto

My PC:
OS: Windows 10 Pro English 64-bit / CPU: Intel i7-9700 3.6GHz / MB: ASUS ROG Strix Z390  RAM: 32GB DDR4 2.6GHz / HD: 2TB+3TB  /  
SSD: 2x512GB Samsung 860 EVO + 1x2TB Samsung
VB: Palit GTX2080 TI GamingPro 11GB / AB: embedded in the MB and VB (audio from the MOTU M4 I/F) / DirectX: 12

Rampa
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The video card is used during runtime and movie exporting. Both of these tasks use the real-time engine.

Probably a good idea to run a CPU/GPU meter while iClone is running to get a clearer idea.
RobertoColombo
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Agree.
In fact I wonder whether anybody has already tried it.
With my PC, if the benchmark will ever run, considering how few resources are left when I try the last projects I made for iClone, I expect to see 150% CPU + 150% GPU being used :D


My PC:
OS: Windows 10 Pro English 64-bit / CPU: Intel i7-9700 3.6GHz / MB: ASUS ROG Strix Z390  RAM: 32GB DDR4 2.6GHz / HD: 2TB+3TB  /  
SSD: 2x512GB Samsung 860 EVO + 1x2TB Samsung
VB: Palit GTX2080 TI GamingPro 11GB / AB: embedded in the MB and VB (audio from the MOTU M4 I/F) / DirectX: 12

planetstardragon
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my 2 cents, i've found that it is in fact cheaper to build -

simply because pre-built systems often add extra things to the system that you really didn't need to buy, and there are points that you should focus on for extra power ..specifically cpu / motherboard, power supply and video card.

For example - you may find an affordable system for 1,000 that has the bells and whistles - special audio - special blue ray - special software ....but you don't need those and they skimped out by giving you a weaker motherboard, cpu, power supply and graphics card that you could have bought for 1k in a more barebones system without the bells and whistles you didn't really need.

If you focused on the parts you need specifically to run iclone at it's best, you will see that the system you would want goes for $3k - because of the bells and whistles they added to those rigs. Not because the essential parts you need amount to that much.

ps- If you already have windows 7, you don't have to buy the operating system again. What I did was transfer my drive from my old system, and reinstalled windows 7 from scratch on a new drive - Microsoft is only concerned that you aren't using the same operating system on 2 computers at the same time, so if you plan to stop using the old pc ..you should be fine.

and on rebates - don't believe the hype, most of my rebates suddenly had 'issues' to them. 1 gave me the rebate ....the other gave me a card that can't be validated with no number to call, and the 3rd made an excuse of why they couldn't honor their rebate ...so consider that point a scam to save yourself the grief of choosing one thing over another for the rebate.

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RobertoColombo
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Hi Planetsdragon,

we are 100% on the same page: i always choose the component I need and then go through a PC-build service.

Here, as promised, is RL answer about my questions.
I think they offer an interesting point of view.

1. A good graphics card is very important for iClone5. Having a powerful card with plenty of on-board ram will allow you to work with higher resolution textures and handle more objects on screen. However the processor is also very important so I would suggest a 60 -40 share in favour of the graphics card.

2. Having more than 4GB of Ram with a 32Bit operating system will not offer any real benefits. However if you have a 64bit operating system then system Ram becomes very important, especially if you plan to work with larger scale projects. 16GB will be ideal for iClone5.

3. We do recommend Nvidia cards but latest AMD cards are still a good choice too. The Nvidia GeForce GTX 780 would be perfect for iClone with a GTX 680 or 760 being a close second.

4. SSD drives can improve the loading speed of iClone (and all your software) but the size is often the problem. If the SSD drive is used for the C: drive then along with iClone it will also contain the OS as well as your iClone temp files which can get very large. For this reason a minimum 256GB card is the best option. The small sizes such as 64GB are not really suitable as they will fill up almost immediately which counters any gains you have made by using SSD.

5. At this stage I don't think there is any difference between using Windows 7 or Windows 8. Both work perfectly with iClone offering the same performance levels. Personally I use Windows 8.1 because of the other benefits it brings, but for iClone only there really is no difference.



My PC:
OS: Windows 10 Pro English 64-bit / CPU: Intel i7-9700 3.6GHz / MB: ASUS ROG Strix Z390  RAM: 32GB DDR4 2.6GHz / HD: 2TB+3TB  /  
SSD: 2x512GB Samsung 860 EVO + 1x2TB Samsung
VB: Palit GTX2080 TI GamingPro 11GB / AB: embedded in the MB and VB (audio from the MOTU M4 I/F) / DirectX: 12

animagic
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I have been considering a new system, so this thread is of interest to me.

The last two PCs I have built myself and I'm very pleased with the results. I use Windows 7 64-bit (WIn 8 wasn't out yet). One system runs Pro, the other Ultimate. There is no particular advantage to Ultimate as far as I can see.

I agree with the Intel/nVidia recommendations. Video RAM is important, otherwise the card just steals it from the system RAM. My current card (a GTX 580) has 1.5GB video RAM, which is at the low end. I have 16GB of system RAM, which is sufficient. It is amazing though how things fill up; even web browsers are very memory hungry.

I've done some tests and I have found that both CPU and GPU are used for preview as well as rendering. For texture-heavy scenes this can go up to 50% or more. So a powerful CPU and GPU are important.

I  considered an SSD at the time (about two years ago) and wasn't convinced about the reliability. For a new build I would probably get an SSD for the OS and applications. For data, including iClone content, I would get a couple of hard drives. Don't use the SSD for content, because it will fill up before you know.

I always check benchmarks as part of my research, although it is hard to find benchmarks that go beyond FPS of the latest game...


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