Okay then, about my workflow...

1) I start with a very complete story.  It may or may not be thoroughly scripted, but I have a very good grasp of the story I am going to tell.

2) Next I try to find an existing "scene" that looks close to what I need.  That could be a simple terrain, or a sample project that comes with iClone.

3) I place my character(s) in the scene and do some initial speech and crude animation.  Mostly likely I do all the voices, male and femail.  At that point I am essentially blocking out my scene and getting an idea of the timing within that scene.  If the character is going to hold a cell phone, and I don't have one handy, I might simply scale down a primitive 3D Block as a stand-in.

>>> INSERTED DAYS LATER...
>>> Steps #2 and 3 are really a combined step of "create a rough layout of the entire project."
>>> That is where I will do some prototyping and proof-of-concept work.  If there is some key technique that is important to achieving the vision that's in my head,
>>> and I've never done it before, I want to know now before I go too far.  On my long Pinhead "Kidnapped" project, one thing I tested (and incorporated) was
>>> having Pinhead clobber a mailbox with a baseball bat, so I needed to know I could do a plausible animation of pounding with the bat, and severely deforming
>>> the mailbox.

4) If it is an actual multi-scene project, I will repeat steps 2 and 3 as-needed.  Along the way I will render each scene, and assemble them in my video editor (NLE).  At this point I have what could could almost be considered an animated storyboard.  Here I will be able to see if what I have seems to flow like I thought it would.

5) Now I go back and work on various elements of each scene.  I tend to use a 'triage" approach, addressing what I see as the most horrifyingly bad things that desperately need to be fixed (or simply need to be done).  I might do the same work on multiple scenes, but not necessarily.  On one scene I might change the sky from day to night, while on another scene I might decide the character should be sitting outside on the porch instead of inside on the sofa.  So I tend to work on the scenes in a random order, based on whatever feels like the top priority.

While doing that iterative improvement, I make notes to myself.  It helps me remember things, and it is satisfying to check things off of the "To Do" list.

One of the first improvements is usually the real voice-overs.  That way I can animate to the duration of the speech.  I might have initially spoken some lines too quickly, but the real dialogue (whether done by me or someone else) might be done more dramatically and more slowly, so a 10-second bit "rough speech" might turn out to be 12, 13, or 15 seconds long.

This step is very iterative.  Rather than finish one scene, i try to gradually improve the overall project.  Why?  I guess i would rather have a crude, but complete STORY than an incomplete one.  I don't want to have two excellent scenes with another seven scenes missing.

This iterative approach usually involves a number of updates to the overall project in the NLD.  I will also start putting in some music and a few critical sound effects in the NLE.

6) This is where it gets messy.  If the deadline approaches, I continue with my "what needs the most attention" approach until I finally have to make my finished cut.  All too often I don't polish the lighting (I always want to, but I usually have more critical issues that make watching the video an unpleasant experience), some lip sync might be a bit off, and the sets might still be a bit barren.  Camera angles and cutting between cameras is one of the things I think I do tend to complete fairly well.

On a positive note, I do have a complete project.  I can show it to people, and I can submit it.




More about Step 5 ---  After the initial start, I tend to "spread out" my character animation, meaning I will have a few seconds of extra space between my actions.  One person talks, space, another person talks, space, the car drives by, space, a person talks again.  I do that because I tend to copy/paste keyframes and put them nearby while editing,,  I might want to re-use them, or I might do something I don't like, or whatever.  (That's in addition to doing "Save As" frequently.)  It also gives me added room if I want to extend an action.  As I get more comfortable with the animation of individual elements, I start to tighten those gaps.  This is why "Insert" and "Delete" frames on the timeline is so valuable to me.  It used to be horribly slow, but has been wonderfully fast for quite a while now (might have been fixed near the end of the iC6 lifecycle, I don't remember for sure, but I'm happy).

One area I think I've improved is my attention to the quality of my vocal track.  After I record the lines, that is one thing I complete right away.  I do some background noise reduction, and save the lines to many small files, usually a small paragraph each, but sometimes even a single line.  That makes it easy to remove some unwanted dead silence or insert a dramatic pause in iClone.  (Remember Insert/Delete frames?)

WRAP-UP:

There you have it.  Good or bad, I think that's pretty much the way I tend to work on any "real" project that is more than just playing with various bits of iClone functionality.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Shadoesword (2/20/2018)

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[quote]grabiller (2/20/2018)

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I do appreciate your suggestion on previz, and maybe I am just not seeing its value in Iclone 

Being actively involved in film & TV production, IMHO the value of 'Previz' is not for iCloners per se' - it's more used in TV/filmmaking pre-production. In this way, primary layouts for every scene are created along with every lighting detail, # of cameras, and their movements/relation to shots in the script, actors placement, marks, and movements - all with the exact set scaling and so on.

In this way, a producer/director shares the project files for the individual units in the production based on the scripting to design the actual production based on all the virtual previz. This streamlines and coordinates all the units in a movie/TV production process between all involved both in the pre-production, production, and post production processes.

To use this for iClone alone would only make sense if you had say, a whole team of folks working on a production in order to assign the different artists their individual tasks and all be able to work with the same project files, as in previz in film/TV use.  ~V~

       Val RogueAnanda

I agree with Delema that there is no wrong or right way to do your projects in Iclone. Everything depends on what your personal goals are and what is fun for you. In a lot of ways, it comes down to how our brains are "wired" differently by our experiences and particular strengths, and what we are used to. If you are a student seeking to develop skills in film making, you are guided by your teacher and you do things according to the process that is being taught. There is value is stretching yourself to do things that are not in your comfort zone. You come out of it with deeper knowledge. I like to consider myself a student, but I'm older now, and I pick and choose what I want to learn based on what my interests are. I know I'll never learn it all. 

Guy, you clearly have a lot of experience and technical knowledge, far beyond mine in the realm of animation and film. I am basically a writer and an actor with some background experience in video and audio production. I suspect I process things very differently than you. 

I don't always understand what you mean in your posts. For example you have talked a number of times about a "global concept" or things that "work globally".. It sounds to me like you are saying that the previz process gives you a "big picture" vision of the project. It helps you focus on the whole rather than the details, so I guess that helps you unify everything. I get that, for you, it is the composition of the picture before the details are added, sort of the skeleton or foundation.  

I think for me, a big part of that process happens when I am writing the script. I do a vague "previz" in my head as I am writing it. I am used to writing comic books, so I am used to writing visually and in visual sequences. Obviously certain visualizations occur to me in the process, some which may work, some which may not. Some moments come with a deep clarity, and I see exactly how I want it to work. More often, the actual visuals are less specific. But in the script writing, I  have the "global" aspect of the scene in mind, I know what I want the scene to accomplish and how it relates to other scenes. Sure, sometimes it veers off track and you have to go back and change things, but it's easier to change the script than to re-do an animation, at least for me. 

In fact it is the actual animation in Iclone that is the most difficult, frustrating part for me. That's where I have least experience and confidence. Things often don't work the way they seem they should. Motion clips often don't align well, even with the new features in Iclone 7. There are still issues with foot sliding, sudden pops and jerks in transitions, awkward poses, head turns that don't really seem natural, lip synch that sometimes gets off.  And sometimes when I try to fix the problems, I only make them worse. I'm getting better, and Iclone 7 is better. But this is where I want to invest my time in learning right now. It's like a basic technical skill that needs to be brought up to a better level before I can delve deeper into the more artistic side of the film making. 

Still, growth in all areas happens along the way just by doing it, and by talking about it in forums like these. So I really value hearing everyone's thoughts and considering things I have never thought of. There is scientific research which indicates that creativity is multiplied by exposure to other points of view and other peoples ideas. 

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Shadoesword (2/21/2018)

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I agree with Delema that there is no wrong or right way to do your projects in Iclone. Everything depends on what your personal goals are and what is fun for you. In a lot of ways, ../..

I believe the ultimate answer is in your second sentence, and if you switch the order of those two sentences you will see the contradiction included in the first sentence.

Granted everything depends on what your (personal) goals are, then there is  "right" and "wrong" ways to do your projects. Your goal(s) alone make the way(s) "right" or "wrong". That's the key.
The wording "right" or "wrong" should probably be replaced by "efficient" or "inefficient" though, because those words are more explicit in regard to what's going on then.

Ultimately, it is not because you use the "efficient"/"good" way instead of an "inefficient"/"wrong" way that your final movie will be "good" or "bad", for sure, but most often this helps to avoid errors and mistakes that would lead you away from your "goals", this is what about I have difficulties to explain. And once you are aware of that, it is not because you want to make a "good" movie that you have to use the "inefficient"/"bad" way ;) I know this sound silly but most of the time this is what happens, because the more "efficient"/"good" way almost always appears to be more difficult, more involving because less prone to improvisation, because you then must follow some "rules" and respect some constraints.

Most painters do some sketch first before starting to actually paint. But a genius painter may not need it, because he is.. a genius so he will bypass the sketching step. That's perfectly fine. He would have then used the "inefficient" way, but that's perfectly fine with him. An average painter, if he bypass the sketch step, then will probably produce a average or even less than average painting. But what is his goal ? Most often, the joy and pleasure of having created a painting. That's already something and perfectly ok. But that's not the kind of "goal" I am after. And I believe a lot of iCloners do not have "goals" different than that one.

I'll be a bit rude here but we are all average directors right ? Because if there was a genius one among us we would have detected him a long time ago. We don't have a Ridley Scott in the community, nor a Martin Scorsese or a Brian De Palma, we don't even have a Michael Bay or a J.J. Abrams right ? We would know.

And most iCloners probably don't have the goal to reach these directors kind of level of quality movie, first because most are using iClone for fun - and that's perfectly ok - but also because most would think it is not possible. It may be not possible in terms of technical quality but the sense and Art of directing is something else. The feelings and emotions your audience have at the end of your movie when the end credits appear are something else. And I am no different than you, I am an average director but I don't know about you but my goal is to reach than kind of highest quality, I'm very honest here and I'm not hiding it. I may succeed or not - probably not because I'm starting to be a bit old - but I don't want to stick with the classic machinima old game looking bad performed pseudo-animated kind of cheap 3d movies we see too often even if I respect the amount of work put in those. I want to do more. My goal is very high and I'm not ashamed of that, I'm not hiding behind achieving a "iClone kind of typical level of quality movie" excuse. But that is *my* goal, my choice and  won't judge other's goals. I'll be very intolerant with myself, not with others.

So the average painter will start to think: "what can I do about my work to make it better ?" He will then think that perhaps by doing a sketch first he will have a better idea of the global picture. He'll start doing that and will realize that his final paintings are much better. So he will continue thinking about what he can do more to enhance his Art. That's why we now have movie production workflows and pipelines, obviously adapted to team work and most often large team work. But these production workflows and pipelines can be adapted, adjusted to other kind of team size. After all, they have been created for a reason: efficiency.

And who said working alone is not a team work ? If you think about it and look closer, you will discover that you actually have a team in your head.

ps: But again, this is only my philosophy exposed here in regard to my own goals. And I respect everyone other philosophies and goals. I'm not judging others, only myself.

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

Man, I applaud your goal! I wish you great success with it. If you have the passion and the dedication, you can create something beautiful and moving with your art. I would love to see it. I know that you can bring a lot of insight to all of us in this forum, and inspiration. Someone with a passion for their work is always an inspiration. I don't know what "genius" is, I think too much is made of it. Mozart was a genius, they say, because his music came to him so easily and immediately. Beethoven, on the other hand, worked and re-worked every note over and over until he got exactly what he was looking for. His music did not come easily, he had to labor for it. But he persevered because it was his creative passion. There's genius in that, too, I think. Challenge yourself, by all means. Nothing was ever accomplished by setting small goals. And I think we are all capable of far more than we think we are. 

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Yes indeed, you are perfectly right, "genius" may not be the right word, perhaps I should have used something like "A Master at his Art" ;)



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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

As someone who used to be a genius (and I am not kidding -- you can follow the link in my signature here (assuming I did that -- have done it in so many other places I'm not sure) for the whole store) I can say that, yes, indeed sometimes we can just bypass a whole lot of steps and don't need to dot all the i's and cross the t's.  But even geniuses do need the structure at times, and Spielberg uses storyboards and previz quite heavily (and not just because the suits won't let him spend millions without them).  OTOH, he's also about improvisation on set, at least he was back in the day, and many things in Jaws we find iconic were just improvised due to having too much time and not the right light.

But I always think if you want to break the rules (and that's perfectly fine) you at least have to know and understand them first, and there isn't any better way than to practice them.  Afterwards you can say "that's stupid" and throw them out and do whatever works for you.  Or you might say "hey, this is pretty cool!"

(And you might even be the genius who invents the NEW rules.  Someone has to).

Oops, notice I don't even have my usual Mike "ex-genius" Kelley in my signature here -- guess I wanted to try and get away from that moniker.  Okay, here's a link if you're interested (not because of me, but because you might get a laugh :>):

http://kelleytown.blogspot.com/2013/06/why-i-call-myself-ex-genius.html

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

My General Workflow Method
There are 3 key parts to all of my workflows. As I see it workflows align to working on projects whether it be software writing, content creating, movie making etc etc.

1) Providing my project performs reasonably well and it satisfies some of its users then there is nothing wrong with how I did it.
    That is what I mean when I say there is nothing wrong with what I (or anyone else) has done.

2) However, over time I am very likely to improve my workflow because I can guarantee that I need to improve my abilities and therefore improve my workflows....forever.
    So hopefully I become more efficient as I progress and that is why I say there is nothing right with what I (or anyone else) has done



PROVIDING THE PROJECT PERFORMS WELL ENOUGH AND SATISFIES SOME USERS.

Over my many years I have seen too many times where I thought I had the best way of doing something and ended up discovering a better way, often by watching what someone else did.
My belief now is that I can never be sure that I have the best way of doing something.
So while working on a project, being overly concerned about doing everything the absolute best way is likely to cause me to never finish the project I am working on.
Therefore my workflow is to just do what I can in the current project I'm working on, according to my current knowledge and anything I come to learn as I work on the project.
I always try to improve my abilities but primarily if my project performs well enough that it reasonably satisfies the people who use it then I have done nothing wrong regardless of how I did it.

i7-3770 3.4GHz CPU 16 GB Ram   
GeForce GTX1080 TI 11GB
Windows 10 Pro 64bit

100% agree here, completing a project is certainly the most difficult task any iCloner is confronted to.


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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

I checked out your link, Mike...very cool. Were you ever a member of Mensa? I have an acquaintance who is, and she also has synesthesia, seeing sounds as different colors. She has tremendous sensitivity to colors, can instantly see the differences in various shades of the same color that most people don't see. I think the colors help her in math some way, too, don't ask me how. So she grasps things without them having to be explained to her, kind of like you were describing yourself. This is fascinating stuff to me. 

I am definitely no genius, I have to painfully labor to gain my knowledge. But there's stuff going on in all our brains that is hidden which is astonishing. There's a book called "Struck By Genius" about a man who was badly beaten, and his brain developed a savant mathematical ability ... he was able to access in some way the hidden calculations our brain is always doing to allow us to pick up a coffee cup, or catch a ball in the air, etc. I think they called it "zombie math". 

Okay, pretty far off the topic of Iclone, but, who knows, maybe I'll make an Iclone movie about a genius someday, right? 

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