Profile Picture

FW for "all budgets and skill levels"

Posted By Kelleytoons 9 Years Ago
You don't have permission to rate!
1
...
13
14
15
16
17
...
18

Author
Message
TonyDPrime
TonyDPrime
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K, Visits: 12.4K
but0fc0ursee (8/18/2017)
dr.zap (8/18/2017)
...Hot market...:satisfied: :doze: you really are dreaming with no idea of business sense.

+1 :P




Innovative thinking at its best, eh?...
TonyDPrime
TonyDPrime
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K, Visits: 12.4K
paulg625 (8/18/2017)
(1) Kellytoons saw the price and decided JM quote "Price wasn't in line with the message. (didn't know Kellytoon spoke for all the hobbyist as to what a fair price should be. I thought it was simply his opinion)
   (a) Bicycles ( Wal-mart brand sells for 100- 200 bucks (Hobbyist level ?)
    (b) Bike shops sell blkes from 600 - 3500 ( Hobbyist or Simply Serious Hobbyist ) because we still are nowhere near pro level bicycles which range 10,000 or more.
    (c) so how do you decide where Hobby level is ?   Because like the Walmart bike you get what you pay for in the 100$ bike and if your a serious rider all you will have is trouble from this level of product.
    (d) I would love for it to be cheap but I know you get what you pay for (I don't want the Walmart version of facial capture software I want serious hobbyist level stuff.) 
 (2) where is your data to support your thesis of  price for the hobbyist? I here plenty of Serious hobbyist who see a 2500 product being provided to us for 1K and they seem ecstatic.

 (3) I never said just doing hard work meant they were entitled . To the contrary you have to decide if the amount of work you are doing is going to be something people will buy. But you cant bring to market a product which cost more to make then it does to produce unless you have an angle like a Video game console company does. and Yes it is an exchange But if I make something which cost me 500 to produce I mark it up to 750 and no one buys it Do I keep making it and sell it for less then it cost to make it? No I remove it from the market (sure I sell off existing stock at a cut rate but don't make anymore)

and last it is a moot subject this is like the backwood boys drag racing and having a big fight over which is better a Ford or a Chevy. This is like that its opinion vs opinion.


I understand perfectly now.  You know plenty of serious hobbyists who are ecstatic about validating the Faceware customer.  


illusionLAB
illusionLAB
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 393, Visits: 4.8K
Economics discussions aside... it's clear we need more information - both price and functionality.  I thought I should revisit the RL preview video, and noticed this frame at the end of the clip.  This could be a very old implementation, but as you can see there is a keyframe on every frame of every channel - which, is somewhat expected, as a camera with a two keyframes over 96 frames when exported as a 'stream' to FBX actually generates 96 keyframes - essentially "baking" the animation.  My concern is that if all the channels are filled with 'streamed' data from Faceware it may be difficult to 'fine tune' animations - without the help of a "robust curve editor" ;-)  Personally, if I'm going to invest in any face capture system, I want to be sure I'm not overwhelmed with data that is difficult to edit.  It would have been nice to have the "curve editor" and "Python scripting" before the Faceware plugin.
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/9e2de030-fa41-4c5f-a59c-8da5.jpg
freerange
freerange
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 9 Years Ago
Posts: 165, Visits: 437
Xsens is firmly in the indie game/studio and professional territory. For those making money using iClone for game development and content and frustrated by the QC on the neuron suits the Xsens deal is a bargain. You get the best inertial suit out there and you don't have to buy the most expensive part of the setup like I did, the $20K USD MVN Pro license. I do not expect Reallusion will sell a lot of Xsens plugins and Xsens won't be selling suits left and right, but for those using iClone for performance capture and weighting buying 2+ PN suits and dealing with that workflow or 1 Xsens it will give them a solid choice to think about. I think a lot of those studios will lean towards the Xsens, plus it is well supported in every other mocap setup out there. 

So it is a good deal but only for a certain market of the users and for Reallusion that is the market they are growing into rather than existing. Expect this to grow a lot after 7.1.

For many people 7.1 will really be v1 as the workflow had to many limitations before this to fit into all but the most niche pipelines. Having iClone as a pipeline tool brings it into a market that has a ton of growth potential, this is the future of all 3D content creation. 

As far as Faceware goes it is simple there is no other cheaper option they can offer. Reallusion can't force Faceware to sell their software at a loss. If you are a hobbyist and it comes out and you feel you need it you will save and buy it. Tons of hobbyist spend WAY more on their hobbies than what Faceware costs. People are just trying to force it into an arbitrary number for a product that does not exist. I want reliable and good body capture for $300, Reallusion should sell me Xsens for $300 because that is how much I want to pay. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Also there is nothing stopping them from adding one in the future when this mythical $300 face capture software finally gets made. That is the beauty of an open platform. Faceware is what is available now, it is the cheapest working solution out now, and Faceware were willing to work with Reallusion. It is as simple as that, it isn't really an argument and it fits in exactly with what John said in the video. The people who are complaining probably could buy it, they might having to make sacrifices in other areas of their life to buy it, but they chose not to because it does not fit their unrealistic expectations. Maybe just maybe with Faceware and the updated animation tools those same hobbyist could actually leverage their hobby into a little revenue doing small local projects that help cover the hobby.  

Meanwhile I just renewed my yearly support with Faceware for Live and plan on using the heck out of it ;)

Like I said before, best bet for people on the fence instead of wringing your hands over the price (you are not being forced to buy) is wait till it is out, check out the reviews when it is and make a value judgment at that time if it is worthwhile to you. Simple as that.

If something does come out that is cheaper and looks like it would be worth Reallusion's attention (Facerig is not, but might be worth an enterprising users time to tap into the streaming data using python) then bring it to their attention. 

illusionLAB (8/18/2017)
It's interesting how nobody is even discussing Xsens - probably because they're firmly priced "out of reach", or "unjustifiable", for most of us.  iClone users have been desperate for face capture for ages, so maybe it just feels a little frustrating that it's first offering isn't a budget version to have fun with.  Back to the Yugo with the gold rims analogy... what if you love your Yugo and you really want 18" wheels on it? - but the ONLY rims available were the gold ones?




Free Range
My IMDB
paulg625
paulg625
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 388, Visits: 1.4K
TonyDPrime (8/18/2017)
paulg625 (8/18/2017)
(1) Kellytoons saw the price and decided JM quote "Price wasn't in line with the message. (didn't know Kellytoon spoke for all the hobbyist as to what a fair price should be. I thought it was simply his opinion)
   (a) Bicycles ( Wal-mart brand sells for 100- 200 bucks (Hobbyist level ?)
    (b) Bike shops sell blkes from 600 - 3500 ( Hobbyist or Simply Serious Hobbyist ) because we still are nowhere near pro level bicycles which range 10,000 or more.
    (c) so how do you decide where Hobby level is ?   Because like the Walmart bike you get what you pay for in the 100$ bike and if your a serious rider all you will have is trouble from this level of product.
    (d) I would love for it to be cheap but I know you get what you pay for (I don't want the Walmart version of facial capture software I want serious hobbyist level stuff.) 
 (2) where is your data to support your thesis of  price for the hobbyist? I here plenty of Serious hobbyist who see a 2500 product being provided to us for 1K and they seem ecstatic.

 (3) I never said just doing hard work meant they were entitled . To the contrary you have to decide if the amount of work you are doing is going to be something people will buy. But you cant bring to market a product which cost more to make then it does to produce unless you have an angle like a Video game console company does. and Yes it is an exchange But if I make something which cost me 500 to produce I mark it up to 750 and no one buys it Do I keep making it and sell it for less then it cost to make it? No I remove it from the market (sure I sell off existing stock at a cut rate but don't make anymore)

and last it is a moot subject this is like the backwood boys drag racing and having a big fight over which is better a Ford or a Chevy. This is like that its opinion vs opinion.


I understand perfectly now.  You know plenty of serious hobbyists who are ecstatic about validating the Faceware customer.  





What validation of Faceware company? They seemed to be doing fine on there own "We" the Iclone community came to them it seems.  Faceware has been making it fine without us for five years charging 2500 + for its product so it seems this would validate them plenty...  And no I'm just voicing my opinion just like you take it or leave it...
freerange
freerange
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.2K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 9 Years Ago
Posts: 165, Visits: 437
Yes, it is streaming data so you get keyframes on every frame. And yes you are exactly correct that you need a curve editor and curve filtering to best manipulate the data. It is the same for Body capture so if you have worked with body data before, same deal, just blendshape animation instead of bone animation.

I keep pressing Ikinema and Reallusion to develop a relationship as Ikinema has amazing solvers for body but their are some open solutions out there in the mocap community as well. PeelSolve gets used a lot and was written by one of our folks years ago before he started with us. He alwso wrote our machine learning face performance filters. Faceware itself (not used RT so not sure) has some great filtering built in. 

You can also sit there with the reference video and filter by hand based on key face poses. Welcome to the artist part of mocap artist. A good mocap technician also understands animation really well and filters the data preserving the nuance of the performance while also giving good clean data for the animators to work with. That is why the two people I hired, one fresh of Disney's Jungle Book and one fresh of Laika's Kubo and the Two Strings I felt were as much key to the performance as the final animators who put hands on the data. 

You seem like a super smart guy though so you'll be fine.

illusionLAB (8/18/2017)
Economics discussions aside... it's clear we need more information - both price and functionality.  I thought I should revisit the RL preview video, and noticed this frame at the end of the clip.  This could be a very old implementation, but as you can see there is a keyframe on every frame of every channel - which, is somewhat expected, as a camera with a two keyframes over 96 frames when exported as a 'stream' to FBX actually generates 96 keyframes - essentially "baking" the animation.  My concern is that if all the channels are filled with 'streamed' data from Faceware it may be difficult to 'fine tune' animations - without the help of a "robust curve editor" ;-)  Personally, if I'm going to invest in any face capture system, I want to be sure I'm not overwhelmed with data that is difficult to edit.  It would have been nice to have the "curve editor" and "Python scripting" before the Faceware plugin.
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/9e2de030-fa41-4c5f-a59c-8da5.jpg




Free Range
My IMDB
colour
colour
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (12.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 Years Ago
Posts: 5.2K, Visits: 8.1K
Not too sure I'd want to capture my motions................

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      REALLUSION FORUM ANNUAL PINHEAD COMMUNITY PROJECTS.

       New Pinhead Website & Project to be announced in September 2015

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 


CaseClosed
CaseClosed
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 5 Years Ago
Posts: 344, Visits: 781
I’m a serious hobbyist and I’m really looking forward to using Faceware in iClone. Facial mocap is not just about having a character speak, but it’s also about capturing the expressiveness of the face. It’s using the actor’s face to animate the face, in order to get as much subtlety and nuances as possible. The actor’s face is 90% of acting, and it’s so crucial to telling a great story. I know I can create incredible sets and scenery with iClone because I’ve already done it, and Reallusion’s Character Creator is better than I ever would have asked for. I’m hoping that the Perception Neuron suit I have does the job. If there is a problem with calibration, I hope Reallusion and Perception Neuron are working on fixing that problem right now. This is an exciting time for the serious hobbyist :D
but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.6K reputation)

Group: Banned Members
Last Active: 9 Years Ago
Posts: 595, Visits: 1.7K
illusionLAB,
...if I'm going to invest in any face capture system, I want to be sure I'm not overwhelmed with data that is difficult to edit.  It would have been nice to have the "curve editor" and "Python scripting" before the Faceware plugin.
That's putting the horse before the cart.

freerange,
Reallusion can't force Faceware to sell their software at a loss.

Imported Markerless Facial Mocap to iClone back in 2015 using 3dxchange 4.0



Using the Old XBox Kinect to import Markerless Facial Mocap



illusionLAB
illusionLAB
Posted 9 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 393, Visits: 4.8K
Thanks Freerange... I do what you do, just North of the 49th Parallel.  I earn a living from the "high end" stuff which other people pay for - but for my own projects I am a "Professional Hobbyist" ;-)  Funny you mention iKinema... I was communicating with them just last week and suggested they have a serious look at iClone - their WebAnimate seems to have gone into 'statis' - which is a shame as it's a fantastic tool.

1
...
13
14
15
16
17
...
18



Reading This Topic