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24fps vs 60fps renders

Posted By sonic7 Last Year
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sonic7
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Here's a comparison of a 60 frame per second render (top) vs a 24 frame per second render. (from iClone's native renderer)
With 60fps, there are 60 equal intervals.
With 24fps, the intervals are not equal - the cube jumps according to a pattern (sometimes 3 intervals, sometimes 2)
This maybe the reason native 24fps rendered outputs don't look very smooth - although the 'average' distance moved is the same as the 60fps, the 'momentary' increments aren't uniform like the 60fps.




Rendering out of iClone at 60fps in PNG and then importing into a non linear editor for setting the *final speed* - gives the best results.
The NLE has 60 frames to choose from so if you want 30fps - it will simply discard every second frame. If you want 24 fps - it can make the best choices from the 60 available frames.


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raxel_67
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Actually in my experience rendering at 30 fps causes horrible stutter when you have a camera travel. It is not that noticeable if the camera is in a fixed position. But if the camera moves the rendering process does not properly drop the unused frames, it actually repeats a previous frame creating a stutter.

It is easy to reproduce if you make the camera travel along a wall with the smooth curve preset (no curve editor). Just put a long wall or something and make the camera move from the left to the right ( slower travels make this more evident) now render at 60 and then render at 30 fps. The 30 fps video is useless because it repeats previous frames generating a stutter effect that is beyond annoying. It is not a codec issue since the stutter happens with mp4 wmv and avi, havent tried mov because im lazy and i hate mov files (personal psychotic issue with anything related to the church of appletology). I think it happens too with image sequences. If anyone confirms this i will put it in the feedback tracker
gordryd
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Hi Sonic,
Am I missing something here?  Because right on your video it says "15 FPS Playback" -- so you aren't seeing 24 FPS, you are seeing 15 FPS with 9 frames 'discarded'.  Can you set the playback to 24 FPS and see if the jumping is still noticeable?  Neve mind -- I just went back and see that you have different playback speeds (so I WAS missing something - duh!)
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The-any-Key
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I noticed similar issue when I got a camera following a moving object. It's really bad. The only way I found to fix it is to make sure the camera have the same move pattern or move the camera further away from the object. This is how it is fixed in games too.

What I really would like to have is motion blur. That would fix this issue just like our brains do every day :-)



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raxel_67
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Tried that already, results are unsatisfactory, the issue stems from how iclone drops frames
animagic
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raxel_67 (6/7/2019)
Actually in my experience rendering at 30 fps causes horrible stutter when you have a camera travel. It is not that noticeable if the camera is in a fixed position. But if the camera moves the rendering process does not properly drop the unused frames, it actually repeats a previous frame creating a stutter.

It is easy to reproduce if you make the camera travel along a wall with the smooth curve preset (no curve editor). Just put a long wall or something and make the camera move from the left to the right ( slower travels make this more evident) now render at 60 and then render at 30 fps. The 30 fps video is useless because it repeats previous frames generating a stutter effect that is beyond annoying. It is not a codec issue since the stutter happens with mp4 wmv and avi, havent tried mov because im lazy and i hate mov files (personal psychotic issue with anything related to the church of appletology). I think it happens too with image sequences. If anyone confirms this i will put it in the feedback tracker

I always render in image sequences and did the experiment at 30 FPS. The movement is incremented every frame in a linear fashion and no frames are repeated.

I then rendered out to uncompressed AVI to watch the video, and the movement is smooth. I then converted to MP4 with Handbrake and at the first attempt the video was stuttering. I then used a HQ setting and the movement was OK. Here it is:



YouTube does its own processing, but I believe it's still OK. But it seems that not all codecs are created equal, and this is a good way to test them.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1a09220f-ab50-42ac-ad1a-33ec.pnghttps://forum.reallusion.com/Uploads/Images/d14339d0-cd32-4b35-88f9-40a0.png


animagic
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BTW, if you want  30 FPS image sequence, I don't see an advantage in rendering at 60 FPS in iClone; it just takes quite as long. I have been using image sequences for a long time and I have never encountered aberrations. Every other frame (based on 60 FPS) is rendered as expected.

24 FPS is an interesting case iClone would need to render every 2.5 frame. So it it has to interpolate (or rather render 2 out of 5), as has an NLE, which may be doing a better job. An internal frame rate of 120 FPS for iClone would solve that.

There are many lively discussions about the merits of 24 FPS, where the lack of smoothness in this digital world is seen as an advantage...Unsure I used it for my last movie, rendering directly from iClone. There was one pan, and I added blur in post to fake motion blur.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1a09220f-ab50-42ac-ad1a-33ec.pnghttps://forum.reallusion.com/Uploads/Images/d14339d0-cd32-4b35-88f9-40a0.png


raxel_67
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Animagic your test came out ok because you used a linear keyframe for camera movement, use the smooth preset and you will se what i am talking about. I almost never use linear keyframes, specially with cameras as it will make any change in direction bumpy and rigid
animagic
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OK, repeated the pan test with the transition curve set to smooth:





https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1a09220f-ab50-42ac-ad1a-33ec.pnghttps://forum.reallusion.com/Uploads/Images/d14339d0-cd32-4b35-88f9-40a0.png


4u2ges
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@raxel_67
But that is easy to prove one way or another. Render same scene with image sequence at 30 fps and at 60 fps
Then remove every even frame from 60 fps render, compile both at 30 fps and compare.

Or are you saying the camera transform data is not adequately recorded to frames?
Then this is whole different story...







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