Profile Picture

24fps vs 60fps renders

Posted By sonic7 5 Years Ago
You don't have permission to rate!
Author
Message
sonic7
sonic7
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

Here's a comparison of a 60 frame per second render (top) vs a 24 frame per second render. (from iClone's native renderer)
With 60fps, there are 60 equal intervals.
With 24fps, the intervals are not equal - the cube jumps according to a pattern (sometimes 3 intervals, sometimes 2)
This maybe the reason native 24fps rendered outputs don't look very smooth - although the 'average' distance moved is the same as the 60fps, the 'momentary' increments aren't uniform like the 60fps.




Rendering out of iClone at 60fps in PNG and then importing into a non linear editor for setting the *final speed* - gives the best results.
The NLE has 60 frames to choose from so if you want 30fps - it will simply discard every second frame. If you want 24 fps - it can make the best choices from the 60 available frames.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

raxel_67
raxel_67
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)

Group: Banned Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 762, Visits: 2.0K
Actually in my experience rendering at 30 fps causes horrible stutter when you have a camera travel. It is not that noticeable if the camera is in a fixed position. But if the camera moves the rendering process does not properly drop the unused frames, it actually repeats a previous frame creating a stutter.

It is easy to reproduce if you make the camera travel along a wall with the smooth curve preset (no curve editor). Just put a long wall or something and make the camera move from the left to the right ( slower travels make this more evident) now render at 60 and then render at 30 fps. The 30 fps video is useless because it repeats previous frames generating a stutter effect that is beyond annoying. It is not a codec issue since the stutter happens with mp4 wmv and avi, havent tried mov because im lazy and i hate mov files (personal psychotic issue with anything related to the church of appletology). I think it happens too with image sequences. If anyone confirms this i will put it in the feedback tracker
gordryd
gordryd
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (4.6K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Week
Posts: 711, Visits: 7.6K
Hi Sonic,
Am I missing something here?  Because right on your video it says "15 FPS Playback" -- so you aren't seeing 24 FPS, you are seeing 15 FPS with 9 frames 'discarded'.  Can you set the playback to 24 FPS and see if the jumping is still noticeable?  Neve mind -- I just went back and see that you have different playback speeds (so I WAS missing something - duh!)

Reallusion Certified Director / Reallusion Best Visual Award / Reallusion Certified Content Developer
See all the G-Tools Plug-Ins available for iClone here: G-Tools Plug-Ins


Edited
5 Years Ago by gordryd
The-any-Key
The-any-Key
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (2.8K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Weeks Ago
Posts: 356, Visits: 1.9K
I noticed similar issue when I got a camera following a moving object. It's really bad. The only way I found to fix it is to make sure the camera have the same move pattern or move the camera further away from the object. This is how it is fixed in games too.

What I really would like to have is motion blur. That would fix this issue just like our brains do every day :-)



iClone 7, 3DXchange 7 Pipeline, CC3 Pipeline, CT8 Pipeline, Iray, Live Face, iPhone Xr, Win 10, i9 9900K ~5GHz, Nvidia RTX 2080 8GB, 16GB Ram, M.2 SSD
raxel_67
raxel_67
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)

Group: Banned Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 762, Visits: 2.0K
Tried that already, results are unsatisfactory, the issue stems from how iclone drops frames
animagic
animagic
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 30 minutes ago
Posts: 15.7K, Visits: 30.5K
raxel_67 (6/7/2019)
Actually in my experience rendering at 30 fps causes horrible stutter when you have a camera travel. It is not that noticeable if the camera is in a fixed position. But if the camera moves the rendering process does not properly drop the unused frames, it actually repeats a previous frame creating a stutter.

It is easy to reproduce if you make the camera travel along a wall with the smooth curve preset (no curve editor). Just put a long wall or something and make the camera move from the left to the right ( slower travels make this more evident) now render at 60 and then render at 30 fps. The 30 fps video is useless because it repeats previous frames generating a stutter effect that is beyond annoying. It is not a codec issue since the stutter happens with mp4 wmv and avi, havent tried mov because im lazy and i hate mov files (personal psychotic issue with anything related to the church of appletology). I think it happens too with image sequences. If anyone confirms this i will put it in the feedback tracker

I always render in image sequences and did the experiment at 30 FPS. The movement is incremented every frame in a linear fashion and no frames are repeated.

I then rendered out to uncompressed AVI to watch the video, and the movement is smooth. I then converted to MP4 with Handbrake and at the first attempt the video was stuttering. I then used a HQ setting and the movement was OK. Here it is:



YouTube does its own processing, but I believe it's still OK. But it seems that not all codecs are created equal, and this is a good way to test them.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg

animagic
animagic
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 30 minutes ago
Posts: 15.7K, Visits: 30.5K
BTW, if you want  30 FPS image sequence, I don't see an advantage in rendering at 60 FPS in iClone; it just takes quite as long. I have been using image sequences for a long time and I have never encountered aberrations. Every other frame (based on 60 FPS) is rendered as expected.

24 FPS is an interesting case iClone would need to render every 2.5 frame. So it it has to interpolate (or rather render 2 out of 5), as has an NLE, which may be doing a better job. An internal frame rate of 120 FPS for iClone would solve that.

There are many lively discussions about the merits of 24 FPS, where the lack of smoothness in this digital world is seen as an advantage...Unsure I used it for my last movie, rendering directly from iClone. There was one pan, and I added blur in post to fake motion blur.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg

raxel_67
raxel_67
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.0K reputation)

Group: Banned Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 762, Visits: 2.0K
Animagic your test came out ok because you used a linear keyframe for camera movement, use the smooth preset and you will se what i am talking about. I almost never use linear keyframes, specially with cameras as it will make any change in direction bumpy and rigid
animagic
animagic
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 30 minutes ago
Posts: 15.7K, Visits: 30.5K
OK, repeated the pan test with the transition curve set to smooth:





https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg

4u2ges
4u2ges
Posted 5 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)Distinguished Member (20.6K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Yesterday
Posts: 5.0K, Visits: 15.9K
@raxel_67
But that is easy to prove one way or another. Render same scene with image sequence at 30 fps and at 60 fps
Then remove every even frame from 60 fps render, compile both at 30 fps and compare.

Or are you saying the camera transform data is not adequately recorded to frames?
Then this is whole different story...







Reading This Topic