Profile Picture

Debate on File *Formats* for Editing ...

Posted By sonic7 6 Years Ago
You don't have permission to rate!
Author
Message
Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 hours ago
Posts: 9.2K, Visits: 21.8K
Sometimes we have to work with what we can work with -- back in the day, when our PCs weren't powerful enough for true NLE, we used workarounds that might serve you well with your underpowered setup.

What I think I'd do, if I were you, is not render to my final output size.  Clearly your editor can't handle that, and it's no good if you can't get it setup the way you want.  So render to, say, 320x240 PNG (or as large as your PC *can* handle).  The nice thing about this is your video editor shouldn't care when you finally DO render to the final output -- it will update the sequence automagically the next time it loads.  But in the meantime you can work with all the layers, get them working the way you want, and THEN re-render to your final size (overriding exactly the same files, with the same names), load up your editor for JUST the output, and output it.

It's called working with proxies, although in this case it's not *strictly* the case (I'm not sure what you'd call it, exactly) and what we used to do all the time, back in the day.  Should be plenty workable enough for you without jumping through hoops.



Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
Edited
6 Years Ago by Kelleytoons
sonic7
sonic7
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

@Mike
.... Interesting .... all the references I've been making to 'proxy' files were those that are created in the NLE 'automatically' when selected. What you're suggesting is a 'manual' proxy approach...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

Edited
6 Years Ago by sonic7
illusionLAB
illusionLAB
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.9K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 393, Visits: 4.8K
Most NLEs rely on converting "image sequence" files into proxies by creating highly compressed MP4 or even WMV - neither of which support an alpha.  There are a few AVI and QT codecs that allow an alpha, but in my experience they tend to be optimized for the "Pro" market so they are either uncompressed or use less compression - and therefore they are more about convenience than performance.
sonic7
sonic7
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

Mark >>>>> ....Most NLEs rely on converting "image sequence" files into proxies by creating highly compressed MP4 or even WMV - neither of which support an alpha.<<<<
that's good to know ..... so I won't go down that rabbit hole then .... thnx Smile


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

Edited
6 Years Ago by sonic7
sonic7
sonic7
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

OK - So from where I stand (at the moment at least), numbers 1, 2 and (possibly) 4 are OUT. Then with 5 and 6 - because they rely on keying with 'color' I have certain reservations about the cleaness of the key.
That leaves me with number 3, which, given what Mike has 'suggested', AND what Mark has 'warned about', then a 'manual' proxy creation would involve a similar amount of work/steps to #3.
Yeah --- I'd say #3 but with 'manual' proxy creation in place of a 'lossless' format creation ......  need to do some tests ....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

Edited
6 Years Ago by sonic7
Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)Distinguished Member (35.7K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 hours ago
Posts: 9.2K, Visits: 21.8K
No, I was suggesting doing #1, but just do it with a much lower-res PNG.  Your machine ought to be able to handle that, and when you are finished with your edit just go ahead and re-render at the higher res you want, reload the editor (with the project) and then output it (you can even output it at the lower res just to make sure first).

If your machine can't handle that lower res there's something wrong, somewhere (even my old laptop could do that, and it's REALLY old, like 7 or 8 years, which in computer terms is a dinosaur).



Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
sonic7
sonic7
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

After much deliberation as well as testing I've come to the following conclusions:

● Regarding 'proxy' generation in Vegas Movie Studio 15 ●
(assuming a low performing system and/or large 4K video files).
This software has a confusing 'dual' approach to proxy creation - well it fooled me, (not helped by '0 results returned' when searching 'proxy' in the manual).
But here's how it works...
☆ The 'manual' mode. By right clicking a file in the preview bin you can select 'Create Video Proxy' from the drop down menu. A short time later you'll be automatically editing with the proxies - seamlessly 'beneath the surface'. When you finally do your render, the original files will be automatically 'referenced' by the software for a full spec output file.
☆ The 'auto' mode. However, if you choose to bring in UHD video, a proxy file WILL BE created by default during import - and you won't really know you're using it. It's in this situation you can end up scratching your head because if you go to create your proxy (thinking you need to do it), your drop down list now has this feature 'grayed out'. Makes sense IF you know why. You can however disable this 'Auto Create Proxy for HD' under 'Preferences>Video'.

Now it gets a bit tricky. 'Vegas Movie Studio15' has 4 preview window 'modes' ..... if you select 'Draft' or 'Preview' then any *proxy files* on your timeline will be used in the preview window, -  wheras, if you select 'Good' or 'Best' only the *original files* will be previewed (and you lose replay performance).
In either case - whether using manual or auto - all Proxy files will NOT contain an alpha channel - even if your imported file did.

Obviously not having alpha is potentially a huge drawback (depending on the work being edited of course).
You *can* switch your preview window back and forward between the 'modes' to give you *either* better replay speed with NO alpha OR sluggish replay WITH alpha.

To get the 'best of both worlds' ie: fast replay AND alpha channel - you're forced to look 'outside' the program for a solution.
This is where the idea mentioned by Mike Kelley - earlier in this thread - is the one 'sure fire way' of obtaining it.
Namely, create your own 'low resolution' frame for frame PNG duplicates from your hi res files.
Suggestion: Use a separate folder for each. The first folder (the 'hi-res' originals) could be called 'Project bla bla ORIG' and the second folder 'Project bla bla PROXY'. All the (eg: 960x540 pxl) files in the 
PROXY folder must have precisely identical names to the (eg: 3840x2160 pxl) files in the ORIG folder.
Start a project and work with the low res files to make all the editing decisions, FX, transitions and even the alpha layering (since they're alpha PNG). When complete, *save your project* and shut down the editor, Now 're-name' the folder containing all the low re-res files to 'Project bla bla PROXY done' - that way the NLE won't 'find' their location. Also re-name the folder containing the hi-res 'originals' to 'Project bla bla PROXY' - so now, upon re-opening your project, the NLE will reference the (identically named) hi-res ones for rendering out.
But do a small test first to make certain it works.
Big thanks to Mike for this suggestion!  Smile



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

Edited
6 Years Ago by sonic7
animagic
animagic
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 11 hours ago
Posts: 15.7K, Visits: 30.5K
Sonic, that's an interesting approach. I'm currently working on a project where I renamed a folder containing an image sequence to something more logical, so Vegas Pro couldn't find it. Then, as with Movie Studio, Vegas prompts you and let you specify a new location. 

Another option, which may or may not be available in Movie Studio, is to do a Replace within the editor. In the Project Media panel right-click the image sequence and select Replace, which will then allow you select the hi-res alternative.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg

sonic7
sonic7
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (13.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 19.4K

@animagic ....
>>> Sonic, that's an interesting approach. I'm currently working on a project where I renamed a folder containing an image sequence to something more logical, so Vegas Pro couldn't find it. Then, as with Movie Studio, Vegas prompts you and let you specify a new location. <<<
Yes, about that 'message' ... "The following file could not be found in the specified location" (in Vegas MS there's 4 options):
● Search for the missing file
● Specify a new location or replacement file
● Ignore missing file and leave it offline
● Ignore all missing files and leave them offline
With option ●2 - I'm confused as to whether it's referring to two possible fixes: #A "Specify a new location"  #B "Specify a replacement file"
If that's what it means then only #B works for me (specify file).
I was hoping that the #A would mean simply 'pointing to a folder' and it would take care of the rest (finding the right files inside). - But it doesn't seem to work for me.

>>>Another option, which may or may not be available in Movie Studio, is to do a Replace within the editor. In the Project Media panel right-click the image sequence and select Replace, which will then allow you select the hi-res alternative. <<<
Brilliant! .... I wasn't aware of that one! Yes that could come in very handy! .... thanks animagic!  Smile

I just watched a video about daVinci Resolve - it's an absolutely incredible piece of software ....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time! Sad  - yikes! ... 
MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram iClone-7.93  3DXChange Pipeline 7.81  CC-3 Pipeline 3.44  Live Face  HeadShot  Brekel Pro-Body  Popcorn FX  iRAY  Kinect V2  DaVinci Resolve17  Mixcraft 8.1

Edited
6 Years Ago by sonic7
animagic
animagic
Posted 6 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (32.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 11 hours ago
Posts: 15.7K, Visits: 30.5K
"Specify a new location or replacement file" opens a file browser and gives you indeed the two possibilities you mention, with #B the one that is suitable for your purposes: specify a replacement file.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg




Reading This Topic