Good points of view, here.
All are good, but I learned long ago that even the best writers get unfavorable reviews by many.
Like when the movie Avatar came out. I simply loved it, but many gave very negative  responses. 

I don't see this vs. that..... I'd would love to learn many of the film making methods (discussed here) and apply smooth animation to compliment it.
Balance between methods will suit most... I think.:)

An excellent discussion on all aspects of animation.
As far as production goes, my stories have a life of their own. My first story was a machinima about a naval battle in the Napoleonic Wars.
When I started it, I had envisioned a one video story to entertain the guys I played Naval games with. However, I realized, as the first video
reached it's ending, that there was still more to tell. The second vid then became my new ending point as it carried the big battle scene
 which I thought would tie up the story. But, again, as the video reached it's ending, there was one more video needed to tie up the entire saga.
These machinimas have been very well received so the story seems to have been right in making me adhere to it's schedule
and not to my own.
Sometimes, as the story is unfolding, I feel like I'm writing a book and reading it at the same time. :ermm:

:cool: pete
"Bad, very bad. Move the camera around when it is necessary to do so. That is the biggest mistake I have noticed with iclone people; people move
 the camera too much and quickly swing to another location. I call these Schenectady shots and they need to go away."

Generally I can't disagree with you Ben, however I don't move the camera for the sheer sake of moving it. Now, I admit there may be a scene
here or there in which my inexperience or my desire to experiment will prove a shot to be ...underwhelming, but I don't believe that to be the case
generally as I've never heard nor have I had a comment stating as much. 



http://www.youtube.com/user/peterblood50?feature=mhee

Thinking about the title of this thread - "Filmmaking versus Animation"
--- Does it mean "making an animated film" versus "making a traditional, live-actor film?"
--- Or does the reference to "animation" refer to the "iClone" part of making an animated film?

If the former, then there really isn't much difference between the two, since both include the full scope; writing, staging, cinematography, directing, wardrobe, music, sound effects, editing, and so on.  Or maybe I should rephrase that, and say they have a lot in common, and it's mainly the "filming" process that is difference between the two.

If the latter, we could debate if the definition of "animation" includes the lighting and the camera work, and even the in-application editing.  But in that case, "animation" is only one of many steps in producing a completed film.

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Dennis,

My idea originally (and perhaps I didn't explain it well) is that many folks "animate" but few actually try and make a film.  I can't tell you how often (particularly on another forum I am admin of) I am asked to comment on someone's "film" when in reality it's just something they animated.  If there is any storytelling effort it's only because they feel the animation itself is telling the story (maybe a spaceship flying through the skies, and lands on a planet, and then is destroyed by another spaceship -- lots of FXs and no people involved because people, you know, are hard.  Or if there ARE people involved there are no closeups of faces or if there are closeups there is no "acting", etc. etc.).

That's why the first clip I posted was interesting to me in that it talks a great deal about the editing process.  I think most (all?) of us here know how to set up a scene in iClone, but it's not really a "scene" unless it includes the various camera positions and cuts needed to tell the story of the scene.  Or to put it still one last way, making an animation of a character walking across a bridge, perhaps facing a dozen or more hazards (like the recent webinar we had showing how to use the curve editor) isn't a "scene" except in the broadest possible sense of the word.  It isn't something anyone would want to watch, unless it's just "oh, there's an animation of somebody walking and dodging and stuff".

But that same scene, with different camera angles, perhaps some closeups of the character's face, some reaction of what was happening, could tell an actual story and be a real SCENE.  That's the difference between animating and filmmaking.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I'm not surprised that there are more 'clips' and tests than actual full-blown stories, a one man production of an entire story is a daunting task.
 (Mine can easily take more than a year to produce)

I made a post a few years ago stating that the big guys in Hollywood have it easy when it comes to film making. Mainly because most of what
is created using Iclone is one-man, one computer. We teach our actors how to walk, talk, and generally interact with their environment and each other.
We build the sets, create the mood, operate the cameras, write the dialog, and basically have direct control over every aspect of the production. They
have a huge team of artists, real actors who have some degree of knowledge about their art, and a support team of thousands of technicians. I have...
ME.
If you are talking the difference between Pixar animation vs. big studio film-making then I think a comparison can be drawn, but if you're talking about
a lone animator hunched over his computer, doing the work-a-rounds, and struggling to find all the elements he needs without skipping on paying the
rent, then there is not much to compare. Techniques yes, to some degree, but it's night and day when comparing the rigors of real filming to the
ultra-frustrating rigors of one-man animation. But, still I do it, not expecting any return on my investment other than the satisfaction that I've made a
pretty decent video presentation of the story bouncing around in my head.

:cool: pete



http://www.youtube.com/user/peterblood50?feature=mhee

@KelleyToons - Thanks for that clarification (as the initiator of this thread).  Yes, the webinar "scene" mentioned is a great example.  In the context of a movie, it could be a great scene.  Either the guy is training, or he's trying to reach some goal, and we are emotionally invested in his success.  But on its own, it's just a nice clip showing what can be done in iClone, but there's no emotion in it.

@PeterBlood - Totally agree with your comments.  Trying to be a one-man animation studio really makes you understand why real movie-making involved TEAMS of people, and many specialists (wardrobe, lighting, SFX, music, and so on).

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

It's sort of like the difference between "do you create eye candy" or "do you tell a story"? Talented people have been able to make enjoyable movies with earlier versions of iClone, because they told a good story. Maybe they didn't look as polished as what we can accomplish today, but that didn't matter. They entertained, moved, whatever.

I'm happy about the way iClone is moving forward, but I also feel somewhat overwhelmed by some of the new features in iClone 7.x. So much to learn! It's also a challenge then to learn how to simplify; there is no need to include every possible effect in your next production. 

When I did my multimedia course and completed my (almost) first animation, people commented how they liked that I tried to tell a story rather than show eye candy...:unsure:

---

While I do agree with what I think the point your making is and I'm not trying to shoot what your saying down. But I feel like saying I don't believe it is as bad as it sounds.
Professionals are indeed large teams........but
1)     They have people who look after the software they use. 
         I have reallusion to look after the software that I use and iClone7 is enabling reasonably high quality scenes and animations that do require leaning time but isn't that difficult.
2)     They have people who create characters, props and scenes for their videos
         I have reallusion and 3rd party developers who create characters,props, scenes, animations, partical effects etc etc that I can easily use to produce videos.
         Also have Character Creator that makes it easy for me to put together characters that I don't have or cant find in the store....clothes and all.
3)     We have the forum here where many people assist me with difficulties I have and hopefully this topic is going to be helpful to me with the thing I have most difficulty with and that's why I want to encourage this topic.

Yes, there is a lot to make stories/movies rather than just animate. And yes I do a lot of work to do it......but it certainly isn't totally just me who is doing it.
Reallusion through iClone, character creator and the contents I can buy from the stores or produce in character creator covers a huge proportion of what the professional teams have.
So its definitely not "just me" doing this
I must admit though that, at this stage, I am not trying to produce movies for professional release so super high quality is not important to me.
At this stage all I want to do is make videos for my own (and close friends/family) to enjoy. Finding out how to tell stories well is what I am looking for and that's why I like what I think Kellytoons intent is here.
I have tons of characters, props, animations etc etc already that will do most if not everything I need. Help with how to create movies that tell stories well........yes please.


i7-3770 3.4GHz CPU 16 GB Ram   
GeForce GTX1080 TI 11GB
Windows 10 Pro 64bit

I feel a little guilty for not posting  more in the Forum despite having been an  IClone user for about 8  years. I have been following you all through Dennis (Justaviking) who I  subscribed to, after he was so kind to help me in the early days of IClone6. I have seldom posted because I really had little to say, being a  relative newcomer to 3D animation, in terms of doing it myself.

 However, I have been peripherally  involved since its earliest days in the 90’s. My own background (here in Australia) involves a decade of Film criticism  both on Radio and Television. I was part of the Aussie film ‘Renaissance’ of  the 70’s, having been trained in Theatre, and ended up both writing for and  editing for one of our largest film companies in the 90’s. I am an accredited  Second Assistant Director and have contributed to many productions here, both  for T.V. and Cinema. So I guess you could say that my background is pretty  strong in terms of film making? (I say all this not to ‘big note’ myself; for  in truth I am largely yesterdays hero now…but to give my words some  credibility?)

 For me to not put in my two cents  worth in this post specifically, I feel would be selfishly criminal, I  apologise to anyone who already knows this stuff, and I can only speak of what  I have directly experienced, and what worked for me, but there seems to be many  questions about story and story structure and how this applies to IClone, so  brace yourselves, this is gonna’ be a long one… 

Film making vs. Animation? There is no  difference. Whether it is stop-motion, or classically hand drawn, the stunning  silhouette work of Lotte Reiniger or the abstract work of Canadian Norman   Mclaren, (he used to paint directly on film), Bruno Bozzetto,  Disney  or Pixar, Ghibli or Jiri Trnka, the principles are always the same. (I have  spared you the film comparisons…my own collection is over 1800 films…we’d never  get to the point.)

Once upon a time!.. (That’s the  beginning of every story ever told, even yours.) ‘How do you get people to  watch’…(that’s Marketing…stop worrying about it, unless you want to be a  salesman. It has nothing to do with storytelling…I know this for a fact, I  wrote ad’s for years!) How do you tell your tale? That’s the right question.

What is your story about? I don’t mean‘subject matter’ directly, I mean, is it happy, sad, dark, funny etc, etc. (We  haven’t even looked at how many characters or what the story arc is yet. The  more you can visualise the way your story looks, the easier it will be to  write.)

One of the best IClone vid’s I’ve seen was  a Black and White piece, obviously influenced by the German Expressionism of  the 20’s, yet with a comical, almost satirical twist. The film maker obviously  knew ‘what’ his story looked like…the rest was just hard work.

Ridley Scott famously said to his editor  after the first 4 hour ‘Rough Cut’ of Bladerunner’, (and be kind, I may  misquote, but the point’s the same),

“God, it’s beautiful…but what the hellis it all about?” Something that critic’s and audiences are still fighting  over. 

The point is that Scott studied as an  Artist and slowly moved into film, does he know what his next film is going to  look like…you bet your ass.

So! Before even writing, what does it  look like? 

Now that we know, it becomes apparent  that a violent Samurai Action flick done in the style of a Care Bears cartoonis going to be a very big ask. (You’ve saved yourself weeks of work, not to  mention $$$ in terms of props/costumes and sets…i.e. Art Direction.

(It doesn’t mean that it can’t be done,but it’s going to need a hell of a lot of serious planning to pull it  off…) 

Now, most of us are familiar with the  concept of back story. Every character in your film has a back story; that is  the life they were leading before they walked in front of the camera. (In fact  a key trick to writing great characters is to realise that they think THEY are  the star and that the story is all about them. When they leave, they’re going  off to do important stuff!) Okay, now you’re full on into a screenplay that  makes Citizen Kane look like a Macca’s commercial…200 pages and growing.

This is the next stumbling block. Yes!You (and hopefully your actors…even voice ones) need to know your characters  back story. The audience doesn’t care…Yet!

When do we learn about Luke Skywalker’s  back story? Not until we have already met Darth Vader, been into space,experienced a laser battle and met not only two comical robots, but been  introduced to the main plot motivator,

“Help me, Obi Wan…help me.” 

…and yet the story seems to be about  Luke?

 

Alfred Hitchcock once said, 

“I have five people in a room, with a  loaded gun. All are liars, one is a killer. When do I let the audience into the  room? Not until after the second gunshot!” 

When does your story start? A great oldtime Hollywood screenwriter I interviewed once,(I have forgotten his name…I hope he forgives me) told me,

“I have to write. That means I have to  start where I find my story, but as I write and begin to understand where my  story is taking me, I then start stripping back and stripping back, even as I  am moving forward, until I get to the point where if I cut any more from the  beginning, it no longer makes sense. That is where the story begins…as late as  possible!”

Die Hard’ follows exactly that  principle, ‘An off duty cop goes to visit his estranged wife during a  ‘terrorist’ attack on her workplace.’ 

Does any of this apply to the short film  format….Absolutely!

 

I recommend to you a film called   ‘Allegro non Troppo’ this is a series of short animated films set to music by  Bruno Bozzetto, linked with ‘live action’ sequences.

All have strong story lines, some are  only of a few minutes length and have the ability reduce an audience to tears.  Find a copy…

 

‘Show don’t Tell!’ This is the first  fundamental of all narrative cinema. Even the silent movie greats knew this. In  fact, a great way to start understanding short film storytelling is look up  some of the thousands of silent movies now freely available on the Net. If  nothing else you’ll have a few laughs, I promise you.

If your character has to tell the  audience what they are watching and why, you’ve failed. (‘Exposition’… giving   the audience what they need to know to continue to enjoy the story, is one of  the hardest jobs any writer anywhere, anytime has to wrestle with. Sometimes   you can bury it in action, or give it to a particularly interesting character,but it ALWAYS slows the story. (For a great example of successful exposition  look at Sidney Greenstreet in ‘The Maltese Falcon’, he not only gets away with  it, but leaves you thinking it’s one of the high points of the movie!) 

Character makes Story. What this means  is, if you have a Mafia hood and a psychiatrist in the same room, you have a  story…(name the film?) If your story isn’t working, look at your characters. A  busload of accountants on a holiday. That’s a story. It’s just not necessarily  a good or interesting one, I hope it’s a documentary?

A busload of accountants on a holiday  with a wanted bankrobber with a suitcase of money from a badly botched bankrobbery…that’s something I might want to see. (My point is not action it up’ or  add  potential or actual violence, just add some contrast / interest.)

Who your character is, will dictate how  he/she reacts and what he/she will do…trust them, let them go and follow them,they will lead you to the story…and more importantly even show you how their  story should be shown…

I could go on, but for those of you  uncertain where to start, these are some of the tricks I’ve been using to make  a living for years, having been taught by people much more famous and  successful than I. I haven’t even got into the other aspects of film making I  thought I was going to, because STORY is so important and the more you  investigate and peel the onion, the more there is… 

Again, if I have offended anyone, I  apologise, and I know that there are others from a purely filmic background  here. Hi there, Kelleytoons’, Benjamin Tuttle and kungphu, just for starters;  who may have other things to offer, or even contradict my own perspective. Let  it rip! Hitchcock is not Linklater, Soderberg is not Welles, Disney is not  Scorsese…!

If any one is interested, this leads me  into the art of film editing. Believe it or not, I have a few things to say  about that as well?...

Thank you all for your patience, and the  many hours of tips and advice that you have offered over the years, and I guess  will continue to do. I would post some of my current work, but I’ve been  re-doing everything with Popcorn and facial mocap and of course the last  Windows Update killed my MoCap right in the middle of things. So for the  present, you will have to trust that I can ‘walk the walk’. My Mantra since I   found IClone… ‘…I thought I was so close?…’

Last point…take your favourite film, turn off the sound and really  watch it all the way through. No Sound! By the end you’ll know  something about film you didn’t know before…

 

iClone 7.93/8.01, 6.0 Pro, 5.5 Pro, 3DXchange Pro, Character Creator 3/4, CrazyTalk Animator 2.5 Pro

Homebuilt computer - Windows10, 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-13900K   3.00 GHz Nvidia RTX 3090 Graphics, 64GB DDR5 RAM,  MS-7306 motherboard, 12 terabytes of disk space, 28” monitor and Optoma UJHD65-LV projector. 

Update

Something in Spiny Norman's post, where he asks, "Does any of this apply to the short film format....Absolutely!" made me think about television commercials.

After doing a "1-minute story" for a Pinhead project, I really learned to admire the talent that goes into a 30 or 60-second television commercial.  The good ones tell an entire story, sometimes a very emotional one, in an amazingly short amount of time.  When you try it, you will discover 60 seconds feels like 6 when you attempt to put your story in there.  It's an excellent exercise, and I highly recommend it.



P.S.
Thanks for the kind words, Norman.  It's a reminder to all of us to be careful how we treat people, and what sort of lasting impression we leave.  I know I've faltered here more than once, but I'm glad I was able to help you (and a few others over time).  Thank you for joining this conversation and sharing your insight.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD