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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Folks,
I thought I'd start a thread here about something I think is more important than all the discussions ever hosted here -- the differences between making a film/video/movie versus making animation.
All of us here are animators, but few have actually made a complete film, one not only which a story is told but is told in such a way that is compelling and interesting for folks to see time and time again. Partly that's because it's easy to get caught up in the mechanics of actually animating, but mostly because it's just damn hard to create such a piece of art. Folks in Hollywood and elsewhere get paid big bucks and most of them can't do it fairly well.
Anyway, here's one video that talks about editing, so very important in telling your story, and how you can make yours better. There are many more out there, and I would hope people might want to share their own thoughts, experiences and ideas on how we can improve our storytelling process. The next time you animate something, remember it's not how it looks, but how it communicates.
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By Rogue Anime - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you KT - Well, as a talent/producer/director/camera operator/editor/toilet washer in the television and film industry for nearly 30 years, (now retired & giving my experience to "The Autism Channel" as stage manager, I feel I can make a solid comment here.
First, if you haven't done the day-2-day 'grind' in the TV or film industry, you may not have all the experience or tools in your bag of tricks to successfully tell a story from beginning to end in the 3 phases of a production. Having done every job (EXCEPT sales -thievery - and marketing - bullshit artistry) in the media business and being an artist & storyteller, animation is a perfect vehicle for me. With animation as a vehicle for my art & writing, I have all the gear, sets, actors, props and possibilities I can imagine, and few, if not any of the headaches associated with working (& playing well with others) in the industry. I have even sold all my physical gear.
Next, I feel that it is important to point out that even 30 years of hands-on work in the industry, in the relatively short time I have been at the animation process, I have learned more in just a few years on ALL these things than I had in my entire hands on the physical production process world.
If you haven't the full production experience in film &/or TV, (school means very little - you STILL have to start @ the bottom) you have much to learn to make a complete & comprehensive film with good storytelling without having had the behind the scenes experience in all or many fields. That is why allot of us here on the forum (You KNOW who you are..) are geriatric wonders, learning & producing alone what we could never do after a frustrating career in the physical industry.
Lastly, there are some here who have vision beyond the scope of their talents, and then there are those with talent and vision so great, they are only limited to these tools. (I'm kinda somewhere in the middle) I am greatly humbled by the experience of seeing your work out there, you are all incredibly talented, & I thank you for all your guidance here on the forum. ~V~
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Good topic, KT. Nice addition, Rogue. Filmmaking versus Animation
...and...
Storytelling versus a series of clips
STORYTELLING: I love a good story, and I really love trying to craft them. It's fairly easy to come up with "an idea," but even turning that into a story that pulls you from one scene to the next is challenging. I've probably referenced this before, but I really enjoy this "writing" workshop held by Austin Madison of Pixar. The best part get started about half-way through:
https://youtu.be/aLVi0hjNrig?t=1768
To me, one of the enlightening (yet obvious) concepts that came out of it was, "Because of that." In a good story, things unfold in a way that seems "necessary" and "natural." Even plot twists and turns have a good cause and effect nature to them. Things should not be random.
In the workshop, they craft a little story, and the end result is a very cute story with an amazing amount of heart. If you want to jump straight to the result, it's right here (but there is a great montage of him drawing, about a minute before this link) - (the "story" is only a minute or so, the remainder of the video is Q&A):
https://youtu.be/aLVi0hjNrig?t=2512 Also check out https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar and you can see "The art of storytelling" and other topics.
TECHNICAL WORK:
Rogue Anime (1/14/2018)
...there are some here who have vision beyond the scope of their talents...
I think I'd like to put myself in that category. My vision and my "eyes" exceed my ability to execute. But at least I'm self-aware enough to not delude myself about my talents.
I love the technology and all the toys to go with modeling, texturing, and animation. Even audio tools (to a lesser extent), and my NLE (mostly as a necessity). But mostly I fancy myself as someone who wants to tell stories. The problem is, it's a lot of work and takes a lot of time to do the animation.
I always use "busy life" as an excuse. It's largely true, so sometimes it's a "reason" but other times it's more of an excuse. But what I do is play with individual features, but only on rare occasions do I attempt to put in all together into a finished project.
It's the same for me with Substance Painter (and to a lesser extent, Substance Designer). I can see things that need to be fixed in other people's work, even though their skills far exceed my own, but I have been able to provide well-received "constructive comments" while knowing I couldn't make anything half as good myself. I'm also able to help solve technical issues from time-to-time.
Actually, I think I have a bit of a split personality: I'm a technologist and a storyteller.
BACK TO MOVIE MAKING AND EDITING:
There's an interesting discussion about the importance of editing. Sometimes it's the details of selecting a shot, or the pacing of the cuts. But it can also be "editing the story."
A Big Edit...
It is amazing how bad the original Star Wars was in the first rough-cut George Lucas screened with Stephen Spielberg and Brian De Palma, and how much better it was after they re-sequenced some of the scenes. I many ways, they "re-wrote" the story so scenes flowed better, and the action and energy was not interrupted in random ways.
How Star Wars was Saved in the Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk
A Smaller Edit...
I recently watched a movie with the director's commentary. ("Pride and Prejudice" - 2005 - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414387/?ref_=nv_sr_1)
In a ballroom dance scene, the director and editor made a masterfully edited scene, involving wide shots, close-ups of faces, close-ups of hands touching, and so on. They were immensely pleased with themselves. A few days later, when looking for a particular bit of footage, they watched through a rather long, single-camera shot of the dance. The director looked at his editor and asked, "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" They made the decision to through away a two-day editing masterpiece and replace it with a simple uninterrupted cut from one camera, which was beautiful.
I know from my own experience how easy it is to get attached to something; a clever camera angle, an inside joke, a witty like of dialogue. But you must be willing to through away anything in order to make room for something else that makes the movie better. Easy to say, difficult to do.
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By Rogue Anime - 6 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/14/2018)
Rogue Anime (1/14/2018)
...there are some here who have vision beyond the scope of their talents...I think I'd like to put myself in that category. My vision and my "eyes" exceed my ability to execute. But at least I'm self-aware enough to not delude myself about my talents. I love the technology and all the toys to go with modeling, texturing, and animation.
Viking - Amen, brother - I will never LIVE long enough to execute the things I want to do, and lord knows I've only scratched the surface here - And THAT is why I am doing this now, and enjoying every frustrating/rewarding second of the constant learning process. Thanks for the videos and your well stated thoughts. You are exceptionally talented. I hesitate to post my results or projects when I see what you other incredibly talented & knowledgeable folk in the community are doing. Very humbling, very interesting. Thanks again ~V~
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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If I may chime in here... I cannot claim to have any education or industry experience, so I usually learn as I go.
I have taken some courses: one in multimedia production that started me with animation (although I had earlier experience composing film music for a few animation films in the Netherlands), and also a course in screenwriting, which has been helpful.
But my point of departure has always been to make a film using animation in order to tell a story. Otherwise there is little point for me. So it is about aspects of filmmaking. Those who have a background in filmmaking clearly have an advantage, because they are better equipped to figure out staging, lighting, use of camera, editing, etc. I just have to do the best I can. Usually, I try to concentrate on a certain aspect in a project to better myself in the hope that that will carry over to the next project. I can sympathize with the lack of skills, I run into that too. So clever editing is in order...
Filmmaker or animator? Who knows...
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By CtrlZ - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks Mike!
I have virtually no experience on film or animation but I do have all these story's to tell!
I thank you and others for helping me learn!
Gary
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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I have as many 'failed' scenes and illustrations as I do 'successful' ones. I don't delete the 'failed' ones as sometimes the idea matures
a bit in my brain (usually without me consciously having much to do with it.) Whether I'm doing an illustration or a video,
I remember what Frank Frazetta said about his art, "I try to get into the moment, as if I'm standing there observing it as it happens."
I sort of write the stories as they are unfolding to me. I know the next thing my hero/heroine are going to do because of the story that has gone before
but, other than a sketchy outline of where the overall story is heading, I generally don't know what the next step is. I seem to work it out while animating and
my lack of skills in this area, when coupled to a tendency to be a perfectionist, leave me with a lot of time to work out the following plot idea.
When it comes to editing, I do most of it in the camera. I'm backward in that I only use one camera, but I move that camera around a lot to keep things interesting.
Still working on improving my action scenes though, they kinda suck. 
It is interesting to see all the 'tests' and 'clips' but I can't seem to stop with those. Pretty much, all of my 'clips' are part of a larger work in progress. I appreciate
that I'm seeing more finished work, most of these are in episodic form as it is, in my humble opinion, the perfect genre for amateur animators. Producing 20 minutes
of a cohesive story and giving each episode a beginning, middle, and end can be daunting enough for my rather paltry skills. I'm pretty sure 20 minutes reaches
about the maximum amount of time anyone can stand to watch my feeble attempts at animation.
A great subject Kelley, keep the information coming on this subject as it can only result in better story-telling within the community.
pete
P.S. There is an interesting book titled "Hero With a Thousand Faces" that is the quintessential work on how the myths and stories of the past have given us a roadmap
for the heroes of the present and future. George Lucas leaned on this book heavily in his making of the "Star Wars" saga. It explains how a great hero starts with little
or no knowledge of the world around him (Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins) and then goes through a series of life changing events which force him out of his comfort zone
(Luke leaving Tattoine or Frodo leaving the Shire.), and plunging him into a series of adventures which prepares him for his final and ultimate confrontation in the story.
(Luke and Frodo both overcoming the dark side of their respective stories.). Also, the hero must have companions and a mentor to prepare him for his final battle and.
help him/her toachieve his goals. (Yoda, Hans, and Lea,or Gandalf, Samwise, and Aragorn) It's a classic arrangement and lives in every great hero from antiquity to the present day. Interestingly, Anikan goes through the same process, and although the Dark Side force warps him dramatically and delivers him as an antagonist, the process for getting
there was no different than Lukes own.
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By Postfrosch - 6 Years Ago
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I first tried 1 or 2x to tell a story with IClone.
Also I have no professional background and do the same as hobby and relaxation and have tried to tell stories with a historical background - I have a clip with IC 5. Here the way of working was no different. But at least I have tried. I made clothes and environment of the avatars myself or worked around. The clip is also YT available.
Will probably be quite uninteresting and diletantious for professionals like you.
Somehow everyone will try to tell a story in their own way.
The implementation is probably better and sometimes worse.Otherwise there are some history heart counters in Iclone e.g. thedirector1974; AndrePeisker,ThorstenMihm,Vlado and more
Greets from Germany
Postfrosch
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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I agree about the manageable length. One of my first (using a radio play for the dialog and story) was about 25 minutes and took 9 months or so. It is hard to stay interested yourself when it gets too long. So what I do now is up to 15 minutes in length. I also do shorter ones in between; the Pinhead ones for Halloween and Xmas are much shorter. Pinhead is a good excuse to do some experimenting...
A project may take longer to get from story to animation, especially when you get stuck. Sometimes there's also some inertia: do I have to do all this work for another 20 seconds?
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By Walt_R - 6 Years Ago
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With writing, if you use 100 words to express a 1000 words, then you are really saying something. I imagine it's the same with film making.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Walt_R (1/14/2018)
With writing, if you use 100 words to express a 1000 words, then you are really saying something...
I fear my forum posts are often the inverse of that. 
But I try to do better in my scripts and formal writings.
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By 4413Media - 6 Years Ago
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It takes a lot of commitment and it is very expensive.  Be warned, I am going to be very preachy and critical.
This is a bit weird to say, but I have l picked up as much information making short films with machinima and iclone as my years in film school lectures. A big lesson to point out is what people do wrong and figure out what can be done to fix it.
I noticed, even to this day, people either do not utilize the close-up or they flat out abuse it.
I'm backward in that I only use one camera, but I move that camera around a lot to keep things interesting.
Bad, very bad. Move the camera around when it is necessary to do so. That is the biggest mistake I have noticed with iclone people; people move the camera too much and quickly swing to another location. I call these Schenectady shots and they need to go away. To me, it doesn't make it interesting- it screams 'pay attention to the camera instead of the subjects.' You never ever want to have the camera pay attention to itself... it kills the shot.
This is where visual literacy comes in.
An interesting shot has to focus on the subjects to make it interesting, not just moving the camera all around. But an interesting shot must tell the story all around.  The right angle at the right blocking using the right lighting makes a huge difference. Think to yourself, 'what am I telling to the audience?'
Editing itself is a major thing. Have a look at the kuleshov effect.
The same principle applies to any cut you do. Also sound, the sound is so important, but yet many here never acknowledge it. The right sound effect, even adding atmosphere or white noise is forlorn here. It's a huge shame.
All these elements are crucial for the proper visual storytelling. If you want to to make a great iclone film, add these elements together and plan. If something doesn't work, you do not need to show it.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Great comments and discussion here, all I wanted and more.
Let me first echo what ani has mentioned -- I always say "Start with a VERY short project -- no more than two minutes". In a one or two minute film you can't learn everything you need to know about every aspect of telling a story, and it's something likely to get completed and shown and (even more importantly) get people to watch and give you feedback on. So many times people want me to watch their 20+ minute effort and after the first couple of minutes I already know everything there is to know about the things they need to improve, and there's no way I can spend the time to watch the rest. Just like the clip I started this thread with, in the first three shots you can pretty well tell all you need about someone's skills.
Another lesson is it's just as important what you don't show as what you show -- Spielberg was famous for this. Watch the opening of E.T. and you know all about "Keys" before you ever see his face. Just for fun early last year, when I was just starting to use iClone, I tried a similar technique for a short for my cousin (who illustrates dinosaur texts). It didn't come out quite the way I wanted to (I only had a few hours and most of the time was spent struggling trying to learn GI which, at the time, was brand new to me) but the basic idea is there:
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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This is something I want to do but find incredibly difficult. Subscribed to this because any idears might help
I did a free course on creating stories (which is the primary thing behind movie making I believe)
I had simple ideas (from google searching) when I got started with it that the course also started with.
1) Start story :- Somebody/something wants to do/get something
2) The Story :- Something/someone makes it hard for somebody/something to do/get it
3) End Story :- Eventually the do/get something is achieved
Anyway, the point of saying the above is that I learnt a 4th point from that course that I never really thought about before.
Maybe I am too low level and this doesn't mean the same to more experienced movie makers but any way here it is.
4) What is it about the story that makes it interesting to watch.
That is what you need to work most on when making the story. I really need to highlight that thing (whatever it is) that makes the story interesting to watch.
That's where I need to spend the most effort on doing well. Any kind of story will be enjoyable to watch so long as what it is that makes the story interesting is done well.
Anyway, I don't know if anyone will agree with that as that is how I understood what was in the course. and I wouldn't be surprised if my understanding is a bit off ... LOL.
But, that's what I am focused on mostly for now and hopefully I will discover some extra's here.
Thank you for posting this Kellytoons.
I will be watching video's and reading this more when I get home tonight (and in the future I am sure) and this is something I definitely need to improve myself on.
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By kungphu - 6 Years Ago
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Interesting breaking things up as such. I enjoy forcing myself to do short films because you touch on all aspects of production from beginning to end... but it’s not as daunting a task as creating a feature length or even 30min film. Just create a solid 5-7min film.
As far as the script... it all starts with a story. Simply stated the story must have a beginning, middle and end. Funny how the bad scripts that I’ve written broke this rule. Seems obvious but goodness they can be terrible without a standard beginning, middle and end.
When turning that story into a script, many times less is more. In that keeping it simple moves the story along and keeps the audiences attention. If you watch tv shows, many have simply 3 acts. The first is an introduction with the plot, the 2nd is the protagonists take over and there is an apex of what do we do now, how can we solve this mess??? The 3rd act is the resolution. The 3rd act needs to have a payoff. You can’t leave it bland or so complex that you have to explain the ending. How many times have we left a theatre scratching our heads saying, that’s it??? When the credits roll. There should be a payoff; a happy resolution, an unexpected twist... something that leaves the viewers saying... ok I didn’t waste X amount of minutes of my life.
That quote of using 100 words to express 1000 is so profound. For me that’s the hardest thing to do. The initial script has so much “fluff” that isn’t really needdd. You have to ask yourself, does it add anything to the story, what is it trying to convey? If you delete it, can you still tell the story? Those rules help to slim down a script to more bare essentials which can help with pacing and clearly conveying the story. I was chatting with a filmmaker who was very proud of his film that was shot beautifully and acted extremely well; but after the screening he almost had to explain to the audience what the ending meant. Cmon... if you have to explain the ending, you aren’t some Uber genius thinking at an alpha level... you’re a poor writer/storyteller.
Fantastic links by Benjamin Tuttle... I could watch vids like those for hours!!! Thanks for starting this thread KT. Lots of really good info in here from people with many different backgrounds. My background is more of a film composer, so I see film in a totally different way. I’m just learning the more visual aspects and how they relate to story telling. It really is complex art. YouTube some of Robert Yeoman’s camerawork on Wes Anderson films. Both men are ridiculously skilled at their crafts. Wonderful stuff! Subscribing to this thread for sure!!!
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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I like the comment about "fluff": when talking about the length of a scene, somebody said "arrive late at the party and leave early". Meaning, you don't have to show everything; you can leave things out, provided the audience doesn't get confused.
I've noticed with some feature films that the director (or however) feels that the film needs to be more than two hours long, whereas with some cutting it would have been a much better 90-minute film.
Although I'm not disagreeing with the story structure, it should not become an absolute. Sometimes it's better just to start jotting down ideas and see where it goes. Sometimes also, you can work in reverse: you have an outcome or final scene if you will and then work backwards to show how this came about.
I'm not great at comedy, but I try to insert things here and there to lighten the mood, if appropriate.
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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Initially, animation seems like a 'simple way' to tell a story... until you are half way through and you realize that you need to find or create every single prop and set - then light the set, block your character movements and so on. So, every animation, no matter how short, involves so much work that the temptation to "cut many corners" becomes a part of the story. Most of us don't have anywhere near enough time to commit to realizing the story we want to tell. iClone, the temptress, lures us into believing we can create something wonderful just by starting a "new project" - skip the script, skip the storyboards, skip the art direction, skip the camera blocking, skip the character blocking and so on. Most of our favourite films, live action or animated, have had a year (or more) of pre-production before rolling camera.
The first live action "short film" I wrote and directed I "pre-made or PreVis" with a camera phone - it took a little more than an hour to shoot and an hour to edit - it was only a sketch, or animatic, of the film I was about to make. So, before I even started "filming" I had a pretty good idea on pacing, camera angles, lighting and performers positions and movements - most importantly the "problems" with the dialogue and other "unexpected" gremlins that would've undoubtedly made me look like an amateur if I hadn't "done the work". I highly recommend this technique for animations too... take an hour with a video camera and a couple of friends and "PreVis" the story you'd like to tell - once edited, you'll have a template to animate to... honestly, there is a reason the first three rules of making a film are 1. Preparation 2. Preparation 3. Preparation ;-)
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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When I was actually making "films" one of the more frustrating things was to end up at the editing bay and find that either the director (or, worse, yourself) forgot to get the cover shots you needed or even left out a critical scene. I'm pretty sure most of you know the famous story about "Jaws" that editor Verna Fields basically saved the film, as there just wasn't enough that young director Spielberg had shot to make the edit work the way it had been storyboarded.
One of the things I like most about iClone is how easily you can put together alternate edits and "takes" once you've staged your scenes. This really excites me after so many decades of not having this luxury. We can put together our scene without worrying much or at all about camera angles and timing, and then afterwards just play until we find something that works the best. It's almost like having a time machine and unlimited resources (and as a director, I have to say I'm pretty happy I can factor out the actor equation to a large degree as well :>.
My own idea right now is to take a short story, perhaps no more than two or three minutes, and then edit it different ways to tell it differently. I think it might be great fun to end up with perhaps a 12 or 15 minute "feature" that shows the same exact actions from several different emotional and thematic aspects (not quite "Rashamon" but similar).
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I seem to recall a discussion a while back about "structure" in a script.
PRO - More likely to ensure success
CON - Perceived as robotic and not creative
I fall into the "pro structure" group, but I do NOT say blindly following a formula will ensure success. But I do believe that good scripts (movies) tend to fall into one of a few common structures. That could because they followed a structured approach in the writing, or perhaps that is simply an attribute of good stories. In lighting, the "3-point lighting" approach (key, fill, rim) is a favorite, and in painting/photography/composition the "rule of thirds" is often mentioned. So why not a "tried-and-true" approach to a story? At least until you are so skilled that you know when and why to break off into your own territory.
I also see a "structured approach" is a good way to avoid some pitfalls. It's too easy (in my opinion) to focus on the 2nd act because that's where the "fun and action" is. Typically that is where the hero meets escalating obstacles. But if you don't have a "story purpose" for your action scenes, and they aren't connected in some way, and they don't move the story ahead, you're mostly just entertaining yourself. Without a good setup, you don't care about the hero. And act two needs to have the purpose of making the conclusion in act three satisfying.
So I'm not saying to be a slave to "this must happen at the 18-minute point," but having a framework in which to work will make success more likely than if you just write randomly. Well, actually, you can write the story in a random order, jumping back and forth (after all, you'll do that when editing the script, too), but the story cannot be random or you'll have a confused and unhappy audience.
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By kungphu - 6 Years Ago
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Yup! I think Ani mentioned the same thing as well. Structure is good, but you don’t necessarily have to follow it to a T. As a composer, music is ruled by so many structures. You write music in a certain key and the circle of fifths will ensure you’re picking chords that will pleasantly follow in the proper scale. That’s all part of standard music theory. If you stay within the rules, the music will sound pleasant. However an “accidental” is something outside of the scale and breaks the rules. Used properly it adds tension and gives new meaning. I’m a similar vein, if you switch to modal music which, it is still structured but not like the simple scales we are used to, it gives a totally different feel. Many film composers will write in a specific mode for feeling. So what does all this mean?
The same works for visual art and writing. Most of our favorite masterworks adhere to some structure, but many have some sort of clever deviation. The trick is learning what you can and can’t get away with. If you add an extra spice to a recipe it may end up tasting fantastic. If you try to be too clever and cutting edge... substituting vinegar for water, you may end up destroying the whole dish. It’s all about balance. Something I’m still struggling with!
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Good points of view, here.
All are good, but I learned long ago that even the best writers get unfavorable reviews by many.
Like when the movie Avatar came out. I simply loved it, but many gave very negative responses.
I don't see this vs. that..... I'd would love to learn many of the film making methods (discussed here) and apply smooth animation to compliment it.
Balance between methods will suit most... I think.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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An excellent discussion on all aspects of animation.
As far as production goes, my stories have a life of their own. My first story was a machinima about a naval battle in the Napoleonic Wars.
When I started it, I had envisioned a one video story to entertain the guys I played Naval games with. However, I realized, as the first video
reached it's ending, that there was still more to tell. The second vid then became my new ending point as it carried the big battle scene
which I thought would tie up the story. But, again, as the video reached it's ending, there was one more video needed to tie up the entire saga.
These machinimas have been very well received so the story seems to have been right in making me adhere to it's schedule
and not to my own.
Sometimes, as the story is unfolding, I feel like I'm writing a book and reading it at the same time. 
pete
"Bad, very bad. Move the camera around when it is necessary to do so. That is the biggest mistake I have noticed with iclone people; people move
the camera too much and quickly swing to another location. I call these Schenectady shots and they need to go away."
Generally I can't disagree with you Ben, however I don't move the camera for the sheer sake of moving it. Now, I admit there may be a scene
here or there in which my inexperience or my desire to experiment will prove a shot to be ...underwhelming, but I don't believe that to be the case
generally as I've never heard nor have I had a comment stating as much.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Thinking about the title of this thread - "Filmmaking versus Animation"
--- Does it mean "making an animated film" versus "making a traditional, live-actor film?"
--- Or does the reference to "animation" refer to the "iClone" part of making an animated film?
If the former, then there really isn't much difference between the two, since both include the full scope; writing, staging, cinematography, directing, wardrobe, music, sound effects, editing, and so on. Or maybe I should rephrase that, and say they have a lot in common, and it's mainly the "filming" process that is difference between the two.
If the latter, we could debate if the definition of "animation" includes the lighting and the camera work, and even the in-application editing. But in that case, "animation" is only one of many steps in producing a completed film.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Dennis,
My idea originally (and perhaps I didn't explain it well) is that many folks "animate" but few actually try and make a film. I can't tell you how often (particularly on another forum I am admin of) I am asked to comment on someone's "film" when in reality it's just something they animated. If there is any storytelling effort it's only because they feel the animation itself is telling the story (maybe a spaceship flying through the skies, and lands on a planet, and then is destroyed by another spaceship -- lots of FXs and no people involved because people, you know, are hard. Or if there ARE people involved there are no closeups of faces or if there are closeups there is no "acting", etc. etc.).
That's why the first clip I posted was interesting to me in that it talks a great deal about the editing process. I think most (all?) of us here know how to set up a scene in iClone, but it's not really a "scene" unless it includes the various camera positions and cuts needed to tell the story of the scene. Or to put it still one last way, making an animation of a character walking across a bridge, perhaps facing a dozen or more hazards (like the recent webinar we had showing how to use the curve editor) isn't a "scene" except in the broadest possible sense of the word. It isn't something anyone would want to watch, unless it's just "oh, there's an animation of somebody walking and dodging and stuff".
But that same scene, with different camera angles, perhaps some closeups of the character's face, some reaction of what was happening, could tell an actual story and be a real SCENE. That's the difference between animating and filmmaking.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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I'm not surprised that there are more 'clips' and tests than actual full-blown stories, a one man production of an entire story is a daunting task.
(Mine can easily take more than a year to produce)
I made a post a few years ago stating that the big guys in Hollywood have it easy when it comes to film making. Mainly because most of what
is created using Iclone is one-man, one computer. We teach our actors how to walk, talk, and generally interact with their environment and each other.
We build the sets, create the mood, operate the cameras, write the dialog, and basically have direct control over every aspect of the production. They
have a huge team of artists, real actors who have some degree of knowledge about their art, and a support team of thousands of technicians. I have...
ME.
If you are talking the difference between Pixar animation vs. big studio film-making then I think a comparison can be drawn, but if you're talking about
a lone animator hunched over his computer, doing the work-a-rounds, and struggling to find all the elements he needs without skipping on paying the
rent, then there is not much to compare. Techniques yes, to some degree, but it's night and day when comparing the rigors of real filming to the
ultra-frustrating rigors of one-man animation. But, still I do it, not expecting any return on my investment other than the satisfaction that I've made a
pretty decent video presentation of the story bouncing around in my head.
pete
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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@KelleyToons - Thanks for that clarification (as the initiator of this thread). Yes, the webinar "scene" mentioned is a great example. In the context of a movie, it could be a great scene. Either the guy is training, or he's trying to reach some goal, and we are emotionally invested in his success. But on its own, it's just a nice clip showing what can be done in iClone, but there's no emotion in it.
@PeterBlood - Totally agree with your comments. Trying to be a one-man animation studio really makes you understand why real movie-making involved TEAMS of people, and many specialists (wardrobe, lighting, SFX, music, and so on).
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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It's sort of like the difference between "do you create eye candy" or "do you tell a story"? Talented people have been able to make enjoyable movies with earlier versions of iClone, because they told a good story. Maybe they didn't look as polished as what we can accomplish today, but that didn't matter. They entertained, moved, whatever.
I'm happy about the way iClone is moving forward, but I also feel somewhat overwhelmed by some of the new features in iClone 7.x. So much to learn! It's also a challenge then to learn how to simplify; there is no need to include every possible effect in your next production.
When I did my multimedia course and completed my (almost) first animation, people commented how they liked that I tried to tell a story rather than show eye candy...
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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a one man production of an entire story is a daunting task
.....
They have a huge team of artists, real actors who have some degree of knowledge about their art, and a support team of thousands of technicians. I have...ME.
While I do agree with what I think the point your making is and I'm not trying to shoot what your saying down. But I feel like saying I don't believe it is as bad as it sounds.
Professionals are indeed large teams........but
1) They have people who look after the software they use.
I have reallusion to look after the software that I use and iClone7 is enabling reasonably high quality scenes and animations that do require leaning time but isn't that difficult.
2) They have people who create characters, props and scenes for their videos
I have reallusion and 3rd party developers who create characters,props, scenes, animations, partical effects etc etc that I can easily use to produce videos.
Also have Character Creator that makes it easy for me to put together characters that I don't have or cant find in the store....clothes and all.
3) We have the forum here where many people assist me with difficulties I have and hopefully this topic is going to be helpful to me with the thing I have most difficulty with and that's why I want to encourage this topic.
Yes, there is a lot to make stories/movies rather than just animate. And yes I do a lot of work to do it......but it certainly isn't totally just me who is doing it.
Reallusion through iClone, character creator and the contents I can buy from the stores or produce in character creator covers a huge proportion of what the professional teams have.
So its definitely not "just me" doing this
I must admit though that, at this stage, I am not trying to produce movies for professional release so super high quality is not important to me.
At this stage all I want to do is make videos for my own (and close friends/family) to enjoy. Finding out how to tell stories well is what I am looking for and that's why I like what I think Kellytoons intent is here.
I have tons of characters, props, animations etc etc already that will do most if not everything I need. Help with how to create movies that tell stories well........yes please.
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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I feel a little guilty for not posting more in the Forum despite having been an IClone user for about 8 years. I have been following you all through Dennis (Justaviking) who I subscribed to, after he was so kind to help me in the early days of IClone6. I have seldom posted because I really had little to say, being a relative newcomer to 3D animation, in terms of doing it myself. However, I have been peripherally involved since its earliest days in the 90’s. My own background (here in Australia) involves a decade of Film criticism both on Radio and Television. I was part of the Aussie film ‘Renaissance’ of the 70’s, having been trained in Theatre, and ended up both writing for and editing for one of our largest film companies in the 90’s. I am an accredited Second Assistant Director and have contributed to many productions here, both for T.V. and Cinema. So I guess you could say that my background is pretty strong in terms of film making? (I say all this not to ‘big note’ myself; for in truth I am largely yesterdays hero now…but to give my words some credibility?) For me to not put in my two cents worth in this post specifically, I feel would be selfishly criminal, I apologise to anyone who already knows this stuff, and I can only speak of what I have directly experienced, and what worked for me, but there seems to be many questions about story and story structure and how this applies to IClone, so brace yourselves, this is gonna’ be a long one… Film making vs. Animation? There is no difference. Whether it is stop-motion, or classically hand drawn, the stunning silhouette work of Lotte Reiniger or the abstract work of Canadian Norman Mclaren, (he used to paint directly on film), Bruno Bozzetto, Disney or Pixar, Ghibli or Jiri Trnka, the principles are always the same. (I have spared you the film comparisons…my own collection is over 1800 films…we’d never get to the point.) Once upon a time!.. (That’s the beginning of every story ever told, even yours.) ‘How do you get people to watch’…(that’s Marketing…stop worrying about it, unless you want to be a salesman. It has nothing to do with storytelling…I know this for a fact, I wrote ad’s for years!) How do you tell your tale? That’s the right question. What is your story about? I don’t mean‘subject matter’ directly, I mean, is it happy, sad, dark, funny etc, etc. (We haven’t even looked at how many characters or what the story arc is yet. The more you can visualise the way your story looks, the easier it will be to write.) One of the best IClone vid’s I’ve seen was a Black and White piece, obviously influenced by the German Expressionism of the 20’s, yet with a comical, almost satirical twist. The film maker obviously knew ‘what’ his story looked like…the rest was just hard work. Ridley Scott famously said to his editor after the first 4 hour ‘Rough Cut’ of Bladerunner’, (and be kind, I may misquote, but the point’s the same), “God, it’s beautiful…but what the hellis it all about?” Something that critic’s and audiences are still fighting over. The point is that Scott studied as an Artist and slowly moved into film, does he know what his next film is going to look like…you bet your ass. So! Before even writing, what does it look like? Now that we know, it becomes apparent that a violent Samurai Action flick done in the style of a Care Bears cartoonis going to be a very big ask. (You’ve saved yourself weeks of work, not to mention $$$ in terms of props/costumes and sets…i.e. Art Direction. (It doesn’t mean that it can’t be done,but it’s going to need a hell of a lot of serious planning to pull it off…) Now, most of us are familiar with the concept of back story. Every character in your film has a back story; that is the life they were leading before they walked in front of the camera. (In fact a key trick to writing great characters is to realise that they think THEY are the star and that the story is all about them. When they leave, they’re going off to do important stuff!) Okay, now you’re full on into a screenplay that makes Citizen Kane look like a Macca’s commercial…200 pages and growing. This is the next stumbling block. Yes!You (and hopefully your actors…even voice ones) need to know your characters back story. The audience doesn’t care…Yet! When do we learn about Luke Skywalker’s back story? Not until we have already met Darth Vader, been into space,experienced a laser battle and met not only two comical robots, but been introduced to the main plot motivator, “Help me, Obi Wan…help me.” …and yet the story seems to be about Luke? Alfred Hitchcock once said, “I have five people in a room, with a loaded gun. All are liars, one is a killer. When do I let the audience into the room? Not until after the second gunshot!” When does your story start? A great oldtime Hollywood screenwriter I interviewed once,(I have forgotten his name…I hope he forgives me) told me, “I have to write. That means I have to start where I find my story, but as I write and begin to understand where my story is taking me, I then start stripping back and stripping back, even as I am moving forward, until I get to the point where if I cut any more from the beginning, it no longer makes sense. That is where the story begins…as late as possible!” Die Hard’ follows exactly that principle, ‘An off duty cop goes to visit his estranged wife during a ‘terrorist’ attack on her workplace.’ Does any of this apply to the short film format….Absolutely! I recommend to you a film called ‘Allegro non Troppo’ this is a series of short animated films set to music by Bruno Bozzetto, linked with ‘live action’ sequences. All have strong story lines, some are only of a few minutes length and have the ability reduce an audience to tears. Find a copy… ‘Show don’t Tell!’ This is the first fundamental of all narrative cinema. Even the silent movie greats knew this. In fact, a great way to start understanding short film storytelling is look up some of the thousands of silent movies now freely available on the Net. If nothing else you’ll have a few laughs, I promise you. If your character has to tell the audience what they are watching and why, you’ve failed. (‘Exposition’… giving the audience what they need to know to continue to enjoy the story, is one of the hardest jobs any writer anywhere, anytime has to wrestle with. Sometimes you can bury it in action, or give it to a particularly interesting character,but it ALWAYS slows the story. (For a great example of successful exposition look at Sidney Greenstreet in ‘The Maltese Falcon’, he not only gets away with it, but leaves you thinking it’s one of the high points of the movie!) Character makes Story. What this means is, if you have a Mafia hood and a psychiatrist in the same room, you have a story…(name the film?) If your story isn’t working, look at your characters. A busload of accountants on a holiday. That’s a story. It’s just not necessarily a good or interesting one, I hope it’s a documentary? A busload of accountants on a holiday with a wanted bankrobber with a suitcase of money from a badly botched bankrobbery…that’s something I might want to see. (My point is not action it up’ or add potential or actual violence, just add some contrast / interest.) Who your character is, will dictate how he/she reacts and what he/she will do…trust them, let them go and follow them,they will lead you to the story…and more importantly even show you how their story should be shown… I could go on, but for those of you uncertain where to start, these are some of the tricks I’ve been using to make a living for years, having been taught by people much more famous and successful than I. I haven’t even got into the other aspects of film making I thought I was going to, because STORY is so important and the more you investigate and peel the onion, the more there is… Again, if I have offended anyone, I apologise, and I know that there are others from a purely filmic background here. Hi there, Kelleytoons’, Benjamin Tuttle and kungphu, just for starters; who may have other things to offer, or even contradict my own perspective. Let it rip! Hitchcock is not Linklater, Soderberg is not Welles, Disney is not Scorsese…! If any one is interested, this leads me into the art of film editing. Believe it or not, I have a few things to say about that as well?... Thank you all for your patience, and the many hours of tips and advice that you have offered over the years, and I guess will continue to do. I would post some of my current work, but I’ve been re-doing everything with Popcorn and facial mocap and of course the last Windows Update killed my MoCap right in the middle of things. So for the present, you will have to trust that I can ‘walk the walk’. My Mantra since I found IClone… ‘…I thought I was so close?…’
Last point…take your favourite film, turn off the sound and really watch it all the way through. No Sound! By the end you’ll know something about film you didn’t know before…
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Something in Spiny Norman's post, where he asks, "Does any of this apply to the short film format....Absolutely!" made me think about television commercials.
After doing a "1-minute story" for a Pinhead project, I really learned to admire the talent that goes into a 30 or 60-second television commercial. The good ones tell an entire story, sometimes a very emotional one, in an amazingly short amount of time. When you try it, you will discover 60 seconds feels like 6 when you attempt to put your story in there. It's an excellent exercise, and I highly recommend it.
P.S.
Thanks for the kind words, Norman. It's a reminder to all of us to be careful how we treat people, and what sort of lasting impression we leave. I know I've faltered here more than once, but I'm glad I was able to help you (and a few others over time). Thank you for joining this conversation and sharing your insight.
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By 4413Media - 6 Years Ago
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Sorry Peter, perils of text there. I misread the comment. The Schenectady shots from others have haunted me.
'But that same scene, with different camera angles, perhaps some closeups of the character's face, some reaction of what was happening, could tell an actual story and be a real SCENE. That's the difference between animating and filmmaking.'
BINGO! It is the power of visual storytelling and visual literacy. That's the big thing, what shot, what lighting, what blocking, what expression, all these decisions must be carefully made.
Last point…take your favourite film, turn off the sound and really watch it all the way through. No Sound! By the end you’ll know something about film you didn’t know before…
This is honestly the best lesson you can get folks. |
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Ridley Scott is always praised for his beautiful camera work. Guess where he started out? Making T.V. commercials!
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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We in the US are mostly exposed to one or two particularly kinds of animation, often with the premise that "animation is for children". This is incorrect. Spiny Norman already mentioned some other possibilities. For those interested I can recommend checking out the animation presented and supported by the National Film Board of Canada: https://www.nfb.ca/channels/Animation/.
In 1977 ( 40 years ago!), I did the film music for a Dutch animation movie that was selected for the animation festival in Annecy, France. The filmmaker and I attended, and I was introduced to an enormous variety in animation; techniques as well as subjects. It was edgy then and more artistic I think than the market place that it is today. Nowadays animation is of course a big commercial success, but I think that has taken out some of the bite. The good news is that if you do your own thing you don't have to answer to mainstream sensitivities, except when you have to make a living of course. I've given up on that long ago...
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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"3d animated Film".... in CGI:
The idea is to write an awesome story and tell the story using various methods to grab the audience attention.
From this point of view, (Using iClone)
How is (3d Animated Film Creation) discussed as Film Making Vs. Animation?
if you grab the audience attention using the awesome advice given here and apply smooth animation.
It's a win win.
No?
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By RobertoColombo - 6 Years Ago
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Damned you all guys! This thread is so interesting that I almost burned out my pizza while reading it!
..and i did not even "notice that bulldozer getting close to my house because somebody decided that here is going to pass the next interstellar highway" (a FANTASTIC beginning of a story from a famous book)
Thanks you all: so many useful hints, tips links, and information here in this thread.
Nothing to add... I am just a beginner in CGA
Cheers
Roberto
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks you all: so many useful hints, tips links, and information here in this thread.
Wow! I echo this thought.
This (detailed info) will take me many moons to fully grasp.
Thanks
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks you all: so many useful hints, tips links, and information here in this thread.
Wow! I echo this thought.
This (detailed info) will take me many moons to fully grasp.
Thanks
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By mark - 6 Years Ago
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Good stuff....I'm takin' notes for sure!
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you all for being so kind about my post. Post’…it was practically a novel. I hope it was helpful for those unsure where to start? Thanks Benjamin Tuttle for getting and promoting my last point, and thank you Kelleytoons for starting this post, it has obviously struck a nerve? There are no sure things about storytelling; and despite how people have tried, no formula that lasts for terribly long, because of its very nature. Duh! The ancient Greeks had a system for drama that much of Western storytelling has followed; number of acts etc, etc. But even in the ‘Orient’ (and I don’t mean that term pejoratively, but as a means of differentiating cultural bias,) there are systems and structures that underlie all successful tales, and yet would leave most Westerners totally confused… People have been jailed for storytelling, a few even killed, (and I’m talking pure fiction here?) Yet despite all this, many, many fine novels and motion pictures simply fail to find an audience. Sometimes it is because the story is too confronting…too soon…as modern lingo would have it.Sometimes it’s just a lousy story, but mostly it’s just a story ‘badly told’… We are lucky to live in an era of endless ‘remakes’and ‘re-boots’…watch them all! (I don’t mean enjoy them necessarily, most are execrable.) I recently watched the two hour re-make of Alfred Hitchcocks ‘Rebecca’…in my humble opinion one of the great movies of all time…and my soul nearly departed my body! Immediately afterwards I watched the original. I saw where Hitchcock had ‘cut to the chase’, created and deleted dialogue to improve character and pacing. In short, watching a two hour modern re-make gave me a chance to get a lesson in film making from Alfred Hitchcock himself, even though he’s been dead for 38 years?.. It has been said many times, that great writers, are great readers, and I have always found it so. Great film makers are generally great cineaste’s. Martin Scorcese, George Lucas, Steven Speilberg and Francis Ford Coppola all come immediately to mind. Without their efforts all of the later films of Akira Kurosawa would never have come to pass, and Abel Gance’s 4hour silent film of ‘Napoleon’ would have rotted away beyond saving. What has this to do with IClone’ I hear you ask? Everything!.. Since the very first art gallery came into being,(most in the early days owned by only the very rich and powerful,) artists from all over would go to examine and criticise each others work. There was a certain amount of ego involved as each artist tried to outdo the other…not unlike a lot of Hollywood today? Those artists knew, if they were stuck painting, say‘a full moon’, someone, somewhere would’ve figured out how to pull it off, all they needed was to see what had been done and figure out a way to do it better. We ICloner’s are so lucky, Cinema is just over a hundred years old. There’s a lot of film out there folks! Just in terms of ‘animation’ we have everything from Disney to Chuck Jones and beyond. (The Warner cartoons or even ‘Tom and Jerry’ aren’t much longer than most IClone offerings?) Got an ‘animation’ problem? Someone, somewhere has figured it out…all you have to do is find it… So, watch more, animate more…how to have a family and a real life while doing all this, I’ll leave that to somebody else to explain?..
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks for you posts fellow Ausie. Similar with every ones tips/comments they are causing me to consider things effectively I think.
There are no sure things about storytelling
I think that is one of the most significant comments made. I don't know how many times I have heard reviews about movies described as rubbish that I and many others loved and thought were great and many others that were described as fantastic that I and many others thought was rubbish. Were any of them really rubbish and really fantastic. Maybe...maybe not. A lot of what make a movie great is the viewers personal preferences.
I think you are right that we just need to make our video's how we want. Definitely pick up tips and ideas from others but in the end it is really our choice on how we should make what we make
I also think I like your suggestion about watching some of my favourite movies without sound and will be trying it over the weekend. I don't know if it will work for me but I think I might discover some idea's/methods that will help me to use my graphics to enhance/assist the story I am telling. The most obvious point related to this I can think of is using effective horror graphics to make a horror story more horrifying. Maybe I will discover some other things that doing that will show? If I do I will be posting things I find here and I hope many others do as well. Discovering ideas I haven't thought about should be helpful to some degree.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I apologize in advance. This got long (again). Maybe it will help if you think of it as three posts in one.
Delerna (1/17/2018)
I also think I like your suggestion about watching some of my favourite movies without sound and will be trying it over the weekend. I don't know if it will work for me but I think I might pick up some idea's that will help to use my graphics to enhance the story. Maybe I will discover some other things that doing that will show? If I do I will be posting things I find here and I hope many others do as well. Discovering ideas I haven't thought about should be helpful to some degree.
A similar, though more studious exercise, is to write down the "structure" of a couple of your favorite movies, and a couple that you do not like.
From the "Austin Madison" video I referenced near the start of this thread, if all you can say is "And then..." you only have a series of events, but probably not much of a story.
Think about how a typical 5-year old tells a story. "And then, and then, and then..."
However, if you say, "Because of that," meaning things must progress, and one event drives another, it can be much more interesting:
STAR WARS... "Because of that..."
Once upon a time there was a.... Farm boy (Luke) who wanted to be a star pilot
Every day he... Tended to the farm equipment, going nowhere
Until one day... His Uncle bought some droids that were involved in a rebellion
Because of that... Luke ended up meeting a Jedi, learned about the rebellion and a princess who needed help... and his aunt and uncle were killed (crucial event)
Because of that... There was no reason to stay, so he agreed to help a princess and deliver the droids carrying vital plans
Because of that... He learned about The Force, and made some new friends
Because of that... Luke rescued the princess, lost his mentor, and fled with the plans
Because of that... The rebels found a way to destroy the weapon, but also... the empire followed Luke and found the rebel's base
Because of that... The empire was about to destroy the rebel base while the rebels attempted to destroy the weapon
Because of that... Luke used the Force to destroy the Death Star in the nick of time, and became a hero
Ever since then... Luke was a Jedi, and was friends with Princess Leia and Han Solo and Chewbacca
So... Luke wanted to be a pilot, but became a Jedi.
Yes, he also became a pilot, but that was incidental. It was much more important that he became a Jedi, which was something he didn't even know about when the movie started.
STAR WARS... Structure...
Some "structure" (not from any single book) looks like this:
a) Inciting incident - What ends the status quo, and starts things moving - Luke encounters the droids
b) Debate - Remember, Luke "had to stay on the farm" and rejected the invitation to help the princess
c) Pinch point or catalyst - His family is killed
d) Point of no return - They enter the Death Star
e) All is lost (often involves death, literally or figuratively) - Obi Wan dies, and their "easy escape" means they're being followed
f) Climax - Death Star is destroyed
SAVE THE CAT
One final comment, harkening back a page or two about wanting the protagonist to succeed...
That is why Blake Snyder (very, very big on structure) titled his book, "Save the Cat." It's about when you meet the hero, and he does something which defines him. (Maybe you see him rescue a cat from a tree.) In Luke's case, we see him "being a good son" (nephew, technically), accepting his responsibility to his family and putting his dreams on hold. He is a good person. We feel sorry for him trapped in a dreary place, and we would like to see him achieve his dreams.
Sure, there are "anti-hero" characters, but the point of us wanting them to be victorious is still valid.
My wife and I recently wanted a romantic comedy where the female lead seemed to lack any redeeming qualities. She was rather grumpy and bitter most of the time, and to a certain extent we almost cheered against her because it didn't seem like she deserved to end up with the good guy at the end. So remember to let your hero have a "save the cat" moment early on, even it is merely tending to some farm equipment and cleaning the droids.
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Great post Dennis. I had forgotten 'Save the Cat'...Yeah! all your points are very valid and helpful. No-one writes like anyone else, that's why we have plagiarism laws. 'Different strokes for different folks'...but when we 'folks' get it! The end result is hopefully always the same. On a professional gig once, I had written a piece that I thought was inspired. The boss took one quick and demanded a re-write. This went on all day. By late afternoon I wandered despondently into his office and said, 'Here it is. It's what you wanted...but I don't buy it?' He just smiled, looked at me and said, "You're not our market!.." That was the day I learned to write for an audience... I love that IClone gives me a chance to give life to some of my old scripts, but I always remember the 'audience'...
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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A similar, though more studious exercise, is to write down the "structure" of a couple of your favorite movies, and a couple that you do not like.
Yes I have tried doing that from movies I like many times but always get confused and lost as I progress and end up giving up.
The thing is I never thought of using things like
Because of that ---------------------
Because of that ---------------------
until reading things in this thread. It makes sense so next time I do that I will try doing it that way.
In the past I tried to figure out what proverbs or sayings fit the movie so I could examine how they use the movie to illustrate that saying.
I did that because that's what I thought was needed to make good stories
You know, things like
"a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush"
"a person is known by the company he keeps"
"a stich in time save nine"
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By Rampa - 6 Years Ago
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So what do people think of the "animation" part of this topic? Can you tell your story effectively through animation? What tools would make that part easier? Is there anything that stops you in your tracks?
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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For me the animation part of this topic is not about creating interesting stories. It may have a simple story but its purpose is not for story telling.
Rather, it is for showing how animation works or learning how to animate effectively. That's only my thoughts though.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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Nothing stops me in my tracks but things can force me into a detour. as an example, basic walking and sliding feet. I learned long ago how to solve
the most irritating (and yet basic) movement in animation. Sometimes, I just can't get it to my satisfaction for one reason or another, who knows exactly why.
If it gets frustrating enough I just change the camera angle or delete the offending character out of the scene and come up with something else.
Opening doors, climbing stairs (which I may have a solution for due to some new animations I've picked up) and other specialized tasks can slow down the
production but stopping is out of the question once I start the story.
Viking: You've just summarized the content of the book I mentioned earlier. The 'Hero with a Thousand Faces" describes exactly the timeline of an epic
heroic story. Lucas pulled his characters and story directly from the text. I'm not speaking of Luke or the others specifically or of the setting, but the bones they,
and the entire original Star wars trilogy story are built on.
pete
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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What stops me in my tracks?
In a word: Me.
In five words: The scope of the task.
Or in another single word: Time.
I am not as proficient as I'd like to be on many of iClone's features, and I most certainly am not as efficient as I need to be. I spread myself too thinly across applications and across time, meaning it's easy to forget things. For example, I may briefly play with the voxel settings when they are first released, and then two months later on a short project, and then again six months after that. As a result, any project involves a lot of learning and re-learning, which slows me down and greatly increases the time it takes to accomplish something. As a result, I am not able to quickly (in relative terms) produce a quality project. I am often happy with the stories I tell, but the technical ("animation") aspects of my projects are, frankly, substandard.
It's difficult to embark on a significant project knowing how it pulls time away from the family and basic responsibilities, and I don't really want to work on a single project for 6 or 8 months.
It would help if I was more willing to purchase more sets, motions, clothes, etc., but mostly I need to do more "deep learning" on more of iClone's capabilities, so I remember where they are and how to use them when needed.
@PeterBlood - I've heard that George Lucas researched a lot of "classic story types" and historical "epics" when outlining his vision for Star Wars. Indeed, there are a lot of classic features in that story. I think I'll have to put "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" on my birthday wish list.
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Firstly sorry about my font size, I have been working off my laptop and didn’t realise, hope this is more suitable? For my last, a very short post. I almost forgot this, but thanks to justaviking's prodding my memory on 'Save the Cat'? I am the worlds worst cinematographer. I have neither the patience nor the technical skills in terms of F-stops, lenses and exposure to be able to do the job well. It’s all too fiddly! But I know what I am doing as director, and I know my editing skills… The thing I love about IClone’ is that I can set up my shot and play with all the parameters and depth of field…and just render! How I finally learned how to deal with the camera and begin to wrestle with film comes from a book widely recognized as being one of the classic texts on the subject. Printed in 1965…I have relied on this for much of my critical and film making life. Wanna’ learn ‘Film Grammar’? Find a copy of Joseph V. Mascelli’s, ‘The Five C’s of Cinematography’ …it’s available as an e-book as well as a few copies still in print. Can’t tell a close up from a close shot? Unsure of the difference between a wide shot, and an establishing shot? Don’t quite understand how they affect not only your story, but an audience? …This is the book for you! Need to learn about cross cutting, cutting on sound, cutting on action etc, etc. It’s all in here. It takes some time to get through, but there are many pictorial references to explain the concepts. I defy anyone to become a ‘worse’ film maker after reading this vital reference book…. As we say here on the forum, Enjoy! It turns out however, that the last laugh will be on me, for if everybody takes up all the advice in these posts, the bar for IClone movies is gonna’ be so high, I’ll never get to reach it… As Oliver Hardy used to say, ‘Me…and my big mouth!’…
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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It's good advice about structure and such, but I have mixed feelings about it myself as it can also delay starting the actual work. I have maybe fifteen or twenty books about screenwriting and I haven't really found one that resonates with me.
So I just dive in and hope for the best. A couple of times I've had the benefits of a story idea from Dennis (related to Pinhead). I liked taking that idea and making something out of it.
It's interesting about the audience and who they are. My last major film I sent to festivals with mostly negative results but a few surprises. One of them was that it was shown in Minsk. So you never know where your audience might be.
EDIT: Fixed typos.
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Delema...it is difficult. You're going to want to bring up the volume to get back to your 'happy' place. But if you continue, you'll start to see how the story is being told with just the visuals...I do this still occasionally if I am stuck with a particular film problem. I'll dig something out of my collection and watch it with no sound. You have to concentrate again on something you think you already know. The surprise is, with the sound off...there's all this stuff you never noticed before...ain't it wonderful, it's magic...some call it art. So long as it's always fun, who cares?....
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Animagic...I'm right with you. I had dozens of books on screenwriting and never found one that worked totally for me...but over time I learned. I agree you have to be vigilant how you spend your time, or you'll get nothing done. In terms of Mascelli...this was published in the 60's...it allowed me then to sound like I knew what I was talking about and gave me a career in film on many levels. I learned a lesson about writing from John Steinbeck who said, 'I am completely unable to write a novel. All I can do is write a page a day. By the end of the year I have 365 pages, and because I like neatness, I have to tidy them up!' The same applies to learning technique as well as mastering it. If you don't know, you can't do...but if you don't do, what's the point of knowing? Isn't that what all art, all life is about...finding the balance? (By the way...if you find it, I'd really appreciate a 'heads up'?)
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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I have been giving myself some deep considering to several things discussed here and trying to determine how I can use these suggestions and it has suddenly dawned on me how I think I might start to progress from here.
I will probably say some things already stated by others but I'm just expressing it how I am starting to see it.
I said earlier that I try to figure out proverbs that fit stories of my favorites and I think I am on the right track there. I don't know whether the writers of what I am going to list did it the way I am seeing it but I think that getting stories to demonstrate the truth of something is a primary thing that makes them enjoyable to watch. This is only my opinion and I think this is what I will continue with as the starting point for stories I make.
Once I have it figured out what I want my story to show that's when I build my story using the suggestion that several have made but keeping all of that in harmony with my "proverb" in order to highlight what I want my story to confirm. So Once upon a time someone wasn't doing my proverb until one day........Because of that......because of that.......because of that......and ever since then......the end
By proverbs I don't necessarily mean actual proverbs. Rather its just something I believe is true that I want to demonstrate.
For example.
The cartoon Cars.
Listening to and accepting advice from others is more likely to help you to succeed that considering yourself to be so efficient that you don't need anyone's help ever.
Harry Potter
Magic really exists and this is why we don't know it does.
That's not really the story but I know that was the idea that she had that lead her into the story she eventually came up with
First Blood
Treating people badly because they were involved in something we don't like even though we really know nothing about it can cause them to end up doing bad things.
Avatar
Letting greed control our actions will end up causing us to loose what we want
Finding Nemo
Being over protective on our children can cause bigger problems for them and ourselves.
This is just my observation and its how I see I will try coming up with some stories.
I think having a primary goal such as something like these that I want my story to tell will help me put together the
Once upon a time someone wasn't doing my proverb until one day........Because of that......because of that.......because of that......and ever since then......the end
in a way that is more likely to make it interesting. At least, I hope it will, I shall see.
Also been thinking about the watching good and bad movies without any sound idea and its really starting to appeal to me as a good way to get idea's for how to use graphics to assist the story and what kinds of graphics don't really work. I want to thank everyone for their comments. I don't think I would come up with this without them. Shows the truth of how I see the cars cartoon. Don't think your so cleaver that you don't need to listen to what others say.
What I have said here is not the end of me reading and considering what has been shown here. I intend to try what I have now, read and consider more get more idea's that I haven't recognised yet and adjust my workflow accordingly. But I am starting to feel a bit more confident that I may be able to make something that wont be too boring to watch.
Again, thank you everyone
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Delema...you're on fire dude! Go for it...Can't wait to see the result!
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Actually, are you familiar with the concept of the 'pitch'. If you can get a meeting in L.A....you have a minute..(Yes! A minute to sell your story) if you can't do that you're dead. The executive you're talking to, has many more places to go, and many more famous people to see...The famous story of the worlds shortest 'pitch' is the guy who walked into the office and held his hand so high, and said,
' Arnold Swarzenegger' and then lowered his hand and said, 'Danny de Vito...'Twins'!!!'
As we know this was a huge success. The best stories come from simple beginnings, don't downplay your proverbs...just find a way to make us go ' Doh! I already knew that???' and make us wish that we had thought of it that way...
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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No internet yesterday so I'm coming a bit late back here.
This has gone in ways I would not have necessarily predicted when I first started it, but that's fine. My first idea was more to Rampa's point -- how the "animation" part of the process relates to filmmaking -- but there's no reason why discussing all aspects aren't valid. I wasn't going to contribute anything to that particular arena, but since we've gone there let me share one thing in particular my first writing teacher in High School taught that I have never forgotten.
I was already a prolific writer (I had written a 100 page, typewritten novel at the age of 10) so I thought I'd ace the course. But my writing kept getting criticized and he would always ask me "Why?". Why, specifically, is the character doing what they are doing? I'd always reply "I don't know, they just are" and was told "that's not good enough". It's a very lazy writer who has characters "do" things without motivation. Oh, the audience doesn't have to understand the motivation (most times they probably shouldn't know for sure, although they could guess) but the WRITER needs to know. If you don't, then you are just contriving things for the sake of the plot. If you don't fully and completely understand why each and every one of your characters does what they do, then you aren't writing real people and are fooling yourself. We see this time and time again in movies and television where the characters just go through the motions because plot dictates. But a well written character who acts in accordance with themselves (which may or may not be logical to others) is ALWAYS authentic.
Now on to the animation part (and here's where I'm slightly burying the lead, because it's a bit heretical so I didn't want it to dominate first): I actually don't think storyboarding is necessary or even a Good Thing when using iClone. Now, I grew up on storyboards: in the commercial film world there's no getting around them. When every foot of film shot is $$$, you need to be dead positive you know what you have to get before production can start. Indie productions tend not to rely or even use them, though -- the creative process in those cases means that storyboarding keeps dynamic ideas from being expressed.
On an animation standpoint, big companies like Pixar (and even smaller ones like mine back in the day when software wasn't what it is now) spend many, many hours rendering even a few seconds of work. They need to understand completely what the final product would be well in advance, and it would be suicidal not to storyboard.
But with iClone? I actually think it's a detriment, at least how we traditionally define it. I think it's far better to set up the scene, whatever it might be, and then afterwards figure out what the best camera angles and pacing might be. There are *some* advantages in knowing exact what your shots are - for one thing, you can "cheat" a lot of things if you don't have to worry about, say, sliding feet because you have a medium or closeup shot of the character at the time -- but overall I think it's very beneficial to delay the actual "edit" of the scene until you have the action and animation done correctly. Think of it this way -- in Real Life you don't have to worry that the driver of a car will make the car look like it's actually moving correctly. But we do, and it's easier to do so if you aren't concerned about where the camera will be during that process.
I meant to illustrate this with a scene showing how you can animate something in iClone and then, afterwards, "recut" it differently and it will convey a completely different emotion. But time is getting away from me. Perhaps I'll do this in another thread. For now I just want to say I think the two processes, animation and filmmaking, *can* be separated out and at times it might be beneficial to do so.
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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Last...I promise...where did Quentin Tarantino work before he became a 'director'...(yeah okay, I have issues)...a video store! I wonder how he spent his time? I'm outa' here, I've bored the ass off too many people...make me jealous guys!
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By Spiny Norman - 6 Years Ago
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I'm sorry Kelleytoons for seemingly hi-jacking your post. All I know is film...that's what attracted me to IClone' in the first place.
These posts should be about IClone' and the many things it can do. However, I found people were asking how do I...? about things that were not endemic to the process of computer animation in terms of IClone' as seen and spoken about by its many adherents, of which I am one and no-one seemed to have any answers. All I have tried to do is shed a little light on those aspects? Which to me seem obvious, because of the direction my life has led me. I started my my first post by saying I had nothing really to add to the animation argument, except what is the difference?...Between Citizen Kane.and Bambi...as an entertainment? I don't believe there is one...is there a difference in approach, skills, tools required? Absolutely. And that is where I defer to the masters...
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I don't think any of the discussion here has been OT, just a bit broader than I first intended. But that's how organic (and good) threads go, and there's nothing wrong with any of it.
I don't harp on my own background but I spent a LOT of time in traditional filmmaking and while there are things there that are helpful to any animator I don't think much of it applies, really. Oh, yes, telling a good story is universal, but many of the practices of Hollywood actually discourage creativity. We are blessed that we have a tool like iClone that can liberate us from those yokes. And a truism (but a good one) is that you will always learn more from your mistakes than your successes. I learn a lot <g>.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Multiple sections again...
STRUCTURE AND PLANNING:
It's clear Animagic and I have differing perspectives on "structure," but that's wonderful. What matters in the end is the result, and I've enjoyed his videos, including the stories.
Sort of mashing structure and planning together, I wonder if three things that help a person work in more of an ad hoc fashion are:
a) Shorter stories, so it's easier to assemble it all in your head without major gaps
b) It's a one-man job, so you don't have to communicate the concepts to other people
c) It's to easy to make adjustments and fixes in iClone, unlike traditional filming (or even "studios" like Pixar) where it costs a lot of money to return to a set and re-film things from different angles or with different dialogue.
STORYBOARDING:
I've storyboarded a few of my own videos to varying degrees. One time I presented the storyboard as the actual product. Honestly, I don't do it much for iClone, but either you spend time up-front or you spend time in iClone. For an individual, it might not make a lot of difference, but I can see where there could be value in some very simplistic storyboard work, or at least sketching out a set. How many houses and trees do you need, for example? You only need what the camera will see. Do you need two cars or twenty? A little storyboarding can help plan the assets you need, and make you more productive once you launch iClone. But as I confessed, I rarely do it myself. If I was collaborating with other people, I think it would be much more important.
Relating this to the previous section, on a 3-year project, Pixar will spend the first 1-1/2 years writing, storyboarding, and planning before they begin animating. I wonder what would happen if more of us spent 50% of our project time "writing and planning" before launching iClone.
WATCHING MOVIES WITHOUT SOUND:
The inverse, of course, is to listen without picture. In one of "script writing" books I read, the author was listening to movies on audio cassette while driving. One day he realized a "major moment" in the good movies was happening right around the time he had to flip the cassette to Side B, and that was his "structure" epiphany. Because of that, he started defining key moments in movies and discovered a lot of common patterns, at least in the popular and commercially successful movies.
Setting "structure" aspects aside, if you have long commutes, this could be a very interesting thing to do.
CINEMATOGRAPHY BOOKS:
I have at least thee cinematography books in my possession. Here's a brief review of each.
The Five C's of Cinematography - I thought the section on "Continuity" was the best, and very easy to apply. The other four are Composition, Close-ups, Cutting, and Camera Angles.
The Filmmaker's Eye - I really like this one. It shows great examples of various shots, with good explanations of when and why to use them. Then it discusses technical considerations (lighting, lenses, etc.) And lastly, it includes examples of where filmmakers successfully broke the rules, and why and how.
Cinematic Storytelling - I think this one made much less of an impact on me. Nothing wrong with it, just didn't "wow" me much. (I hope I'm remembering this right.)
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Rampa (1/17/2018)
So what do people think of the "animation" part of this topic? Can you tell your story effectively through animation?
Proof of Concept:
Pick any award winning story. Now, storyboard it.
How far can you get?
Many quickly run away from storyboarding because it forces you to accurrately animate to fit the camera angle and follow a script to a T.
If one storyboards (adding these awesome filmaking techniques)...
One must know how to animate following a script.
As apposed to: making the animation "Fit" a scene.
This is where one is fooling themselves.
Many great writers, few awesome animators.
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By Ziggy72 - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (1/14/2018)
Folks,
I thought I'd start a thread here about something I think is more important than all the discussions ever hosted here -- the differences between making a film/video/movie versus making animation.
All of us here are animators, but few have actually made a complete film, one not only which a story is told but is told in such a way that is compelling and interesting for folks to see time and time again. Partly that's because it's easy to get caught up in the mechanics of actually animating, but mostly because it's just damn hard to create such a piece of art. Folks in Hollywood and elsewhere get paid big bucks and most of them can't do it fairly well.
Remember this?  Just come to read this, went back to the OP, so before seeing anything anyone else's post, can I say, to the original question, that there is no difference between making any type of cinema. None. You still have to plan the thing out, write it, rewrite it, recruit, re-plan, rewrite, design stuff, build stuff, rewrite, shoot, edit (which is the actual directing bit), mix, re-edit, re-shoot, edit, title it, produce it, then promote it. The scale and methodology is unique to every shoot, every project, regardless of how hard we might try to standardise it, and of course it doesn't always follow that a bigger budget makes for a better film. Digital actors are also hard to deal with, and getting into their heads what you want them to do can be equally troublesome. Lighting takes ages to get right. Understanding how cameras work is important. It always takes longer than you think it will. I could go on in this vein, but I think you get what I'm saying. There's no difference, really, between animation and film from the creators point of view, is what my answer would be. You're still filling the magic oblong box with movement and colour, how you get there is half the fun
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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Animating first with multiple cameras and cutting in various ways after is how TV soaps are made. Storyboarded scenes for single camera (ie. audience) with extra cameras for coverage is how films are made (good or bad). Not a dig... just the facts.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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I agree with Kelley on storyboarding in Iclone. Do it if that's what you need to do but, as an amateur (and 67 years old) I haven't the time to
think everything out in advance, I'd be dead by the time I got around to animating. I have a very vague idea of where the story is to end up
but discovering how the story gets there is the fun in it for me. I have no background in film nor TV (I was a landscape and portrait artist for
most of my life) but I know a good story when I see one and I understand the camera mechanics it took to get it there. Many times I'll re-watch
a presentation with the specific intent of watching the camera and how the director is making it tell his story.
The fact that I am not on a shooting schedule and that I can make in-camera adjustments or even scrap an entire scene without my stockholders
going ballistic, precludes the need for an accurate storyboard, leaving me free to fly with my intuition. Sometimes I get it wrong but most times
I'm happy with following my first thoughts. All the BIG guys, Tesla, Einstein, Bell, all believed in their intuition and followed it. They all felt that their
ability to create was 'hooked in' to a larger pool (GOD?) than the one inside their brains and I believe these great men knew what they were talking about.
No analogs or recipes here, I can afford to go on gut feeling so I do. (Of course I consider myself to be a story-teller and not an animator so...)
pete
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By Postfrosch - 6 Years Ago
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Do it if that's what you need to do but, as an amateur (and 67 years old) I haven't the time to
think everything out in advance
Hi pete I'm with you
Greets
Postfrosch (Werner)
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By Walt_R - 6 Years Ago
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When you write or make a film (animation), you’re either trying to inform, educate, entertain or inspire your audience. A starting point is to have an audience in mind. Creating something for family and friends is different than creating something for the general public. Family/friends most likely will be kind; the general public will be more critical. A good or bad story is not inherent but is selected by the masses for whatever reason. If you want to keep your sanity enjoy what you create with iClone, because as an old song goes “ya can’t please everyone, so ya got to please yourself.”
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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Ultimately it's whatever works for you. For me... drawing 20 panels with stick men and key props is done in the time it takes to open iClone and pull in the assets for a scene. I got into iClone to make PreViz for live action shooting (particularly VFX) - I tried 'wingin' it' because time is always a factor... but soon realized that a basic road map will save me from going the wrong direction (or getting completely lost!). If you have a great story, I believe, it's always worth going the 'extra mile' to tell it - why wait till you're editing to realize you could've done something better?
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (1/14/2018)
All of us here are animators, but few have actually made a complete film, one not only which a story is told but is told in such a way that is compelling and interesting for folks to see time and time again. Partly that's because it's easy to get caught up in the mechanics of actually animating, but mostly because it's just damn hard to create such a piece of art. Folks in Hollywood and elsewhere get paid big bucks and most of them can't do it fairly well.
My appologies, I have misread what you were trying to say. The highlighted red parts is why I thought this was about what I thought it was about.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I don't think anyone here has gone OT, as I said -- where I was trying to focus attention on was less the overall arc of storytelling (which would take hundreds and thousands of responses -- not bad, but I won't live that long LOL) but rather the difference between folks creating "animation" in iClone and trying to tell a story via the mechanics of doing so.
The example I probably should have shown (but I'm lazy :> -- actually, I'm having a HORRIBLE time with a model export out of Daz and I wanted to use it to show. I may give up or take another start at it) was a single animation, done extremely well, but from one camera angle. It's not a story, it's not even a scene, but it's what a lot (not necessarily most, but most of what I see here) of animators do. However that SAME EXACT ANIMATION *could* be a scene, could even be an entire story, with the right editing, camera angles, and pacing.
That's what I really want to talk about, and that was why the first clip I embedded (which got me thinking about this whole process) is a single master shot, but one that tells a story. I think with very little effort most of the people who *can* animate well can also go that little extra bit (or big extra bit, depending on what they were animating) and create that filmic experience.
But all this discussion here is good -- it helps all of us to think about the craft of storytelling, which is as ancient as, well, the ancients. And it's fascinating to see all the various aspects (I really like recently the compare and contrast between looking at things without audio, which is what I've been taught again and again, versus hearing ONLY the audio, which I used to do all the time before there were VCRs -- heck, I even went to drive-ins and recorded the movie on audio tape, and listened to it again and again. It's kind of amazing the difference your imagination can make to just the audio track, and in many ways I got to know those films even better. Or at least far differently than I would have expected).
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By Rampa - 6 Years Ago
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KT.
Would an example of that be something like animating a character making a snack in the kitchen? That is a pretty common thing for sitcoms, for instance. A lot of sitcom activity is kitchen based. It can also be challenging to animate all the activity of it for people without animation experience. It is for me.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I think a great example of "animation" vs. "filmmaking" was mentioned a few pages ago... The "Curve Editor" webinar that was held a few weeks ago. The showcase was a great "animation" of a ninja type of character going through a series of deadly training obstacles. On its own, it was a great animation, but without a story, it was nothing more than a technical demonstration.
So leads me to summarize this way: "Filmmaking" requires a story, and "animation" is merely one of many methods that can be used to tell the story.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Rampa,
As Dennis notes, the webinar was a good example of the thing I was thinking about. However, your example is interesting.
A person could make a snack. In and of itself this is a challenging animation exercise... but even more of a challenge to take that, and make it a story. While it's ALWAYS easier to write about it (I can't tell you how many scripts I've read that do this, "explain" the action as if it were that easy to film and get it across, or let your actors "act" it out -- I tell the folks, yeah, don't explain what is happening if I can't see it) here is one example: We see the woman come in the kitchen. She looks preoccupied, but starts to make a sandwich. As she works it's clear her mind is not on the task, but we see her gazing off in the distance as she goes through the motions of taking the bread and spreading, spreading, spreading on it. Closeup of her face, and sorrow is reflected there, along with a dullness of purpose. She glances down at the bread in her hand and we see that she's torn it to pieces with her spreading of the peanut butter, so that it no longer is any kind of a sandwich. She throws it away and as she leaves the kitchen we pan past the counter where we see a telegram with the words "so sorry about your loss" but the rest is not readable as she leaves the frame, out of focus.
Or -- whatever. Point being that an "animation" can be MUCH more than just that, a powerful means of telling a story through simple actions, camera and timing choices, and "acting" (although in our case the "acting" is either done through keyframing or a combination of such with mocap).
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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3D Animated Film/Movie:
All modern (Great) films have a good story.
3D Animation is the skill of "How well you tell the story."
...the story can't tell itself.
I like to practice what rampa was talking about... "Kitchen Scene".
Following a Script... wow... that's takes skill. (To meet deadlines).
Animation is what brings life to any film.
Many scenes tell the story with "No" audio.... just watch the subtle movements of the eyes, camera angles, depth of field, etc.
3D Animation.... is a skill within itself..... to accurately tell any story. (Using iClone)
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By Ziggy72 - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (1/17/2018)
But all this discussion here is good -- it helps all of us to think about the craft of storytelling, which is as ancient as, well, the ancients. And it's fascinating to see all the various aspects (I really like recently the compare and contrast between looking at things without audio, which is what I've been taught again and again, versus hearing ONLY the audio, which I used to do all the time before there were VCRs -- heck, I even went to drive-ins and recorded the movie on audio tape, and listened to it again and again. It's kind of amazing the difference your imagination can make to just the audio track, and in many ways I got to know those films even better. Or at least far differently than I would have expected).
You'll like this then :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kavxsXhzD48
edit : Since no one want's to click on a link with no title (why no preview in here?) the video is "See with your ears: Spielberg and sound design". Great little piece.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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uncwee
"Many scenes tell the story with "No" audio.... just watch the subtle movements of the eyes, camera angles, depth of field, etc."
True that. I have also used a completely black screen to convey a feeling. In the 3rd part of my naval video, one of the ships is destroyed by enemy fire
and the screen goes to black as the commander of that ship falls mortally wounded to the deck. The music carries into the black screen where it, and the
commander both die. Sometimes it's not what you hear or even what you see that can carry the message. You also see this in many episodic shows
on TV. Usually where one main character holds a gun on another main (either with or without a gun) and the screen goes black followed by a gunshot.
Who shot who?
I just want to say that this has been the best discussion about,as it turned out, film and animation from the amateur to the professional. Just great.
pete
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Wow! So many (New) things to remember.
Thanks everyone!
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By theschemer - 6 Years Ago
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I have been reading and enjoying all the discussion here. Very good info. I myself have many stories in my head. I think of a lot of good short stories, like 1 to 2 minute videos, when I walk my dog every morning. Then when I get back home, reality sets in and I have many things to do. The moral of this post is:
A video on the screen is worth 10 stories in the head".
I have enrolled in several Udemy courses when they are priced so low you cannot pass them up. So I am deeply involved in getting better. It just takes time.
Carry on,
TS
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By colour - 6 Years Ago
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mark (1/16/2018)
Good stuff....I'm takin' notes for sure!
Mark's both Film-maker & Animator. With his beady eye behind 16mm? film camera lens & fidgety fingers on CGI Animation keyboard.
Interesting, informative & entertaining thread. However, I think apples should be compared with apples, not oranges.
IMO, Film-making is filming the action., Animation is making the action. Putting it very simply.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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The Rashomon Effect
One of my all time favorite themes is summed up in the fantastic movie, "Rashomon" (which, if you haven't yet seen, stop reading right now go out and find it and watch it!). It examines the nature of truth as four people recount their own version of a story, which reveals that every person has their own viewpoint and perhaps the truth is always somewhere in-between.
Kurosawa was most likely not the first to explore this, but this classic film has certainly inspired hundreds of variations on it. But as much as I love this (and have used it myself) perhaps the most important takeway is this: EVERYONE IS THE HERO OF THEIR OWN STORY.
It's so significant I want to repeat it: "Everyone is the hero of their own story." As you live your life, you don't see yourself as a supporting player. Oh, you may well recognize others accomplishments, you may even understand and appreciate the part others have to play in your life, but you don't see yourself as anything other than the lead. And so does everyone else.
This is so critical to understand and so often missed by almost every writer: even the baddest bad guy thinks of himself as the "protagonist" (which isn't necessary "good"). And so does the smallest bit player.
If you can write like this, with this understanding, your writing will soar.
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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Interesting contributions all round. Thanks, all, I appreciate it.
Coming on to the thread title as Filmmaking versus Animation, I must admit I did not read it in the same way that everyone here seems to have read it.
I know that a large part of the iClone community is involved in using Unity or Unreal game engines to write or add to games. I assumed that ''animation' referred to this activity.
I am glad indeed to see so many that opt for the storytelling in cinematic style. I had no idea that so many were doing this. I thought that the majority were game-builders.
As a pattern for this several contributors have instanced the ninja-type character crossing the bridge in a recent seminar. I thought that this kind of activity - and additionally the same ninja falling into each and every trap - was the kind of animation that would be pieced together in UE4 or some such to form an element in a game.
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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iClone was initially marketed as a Machinima or real-time filmmaking tool, which attracted users such as myself. (RL also claimed it was easy... ) The application to games came later (3DXchange contributed to that), so you will find filmmakers (good or bad) among iClone's users. In a way it's good that the user base is so broad, as each have their own requirements that help the product move forward. I'm not a gamer, but I appreciate the technological advances in graphics card quality and speed that come from that segment of users.
There is a tendency of this board to get hung up a bit too much about the technology, so it's nice to see a discussion about filmmaking, animation, and story-telling.
I think colour pointed out an interesting distinction: with animation you cannot just tell your actors what to do; you have to animate them, which is quite a daunting task when you think of it. Now if you have Mocap, you can alleviate that to some extent, but not everyone has the funds or the space to use that option.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (1/18/2018)
The Rashomon Effect
One of my all time favorite themes is summed up in the fantastic movie, "Rashomon" (which, if you haven't yet seen, stop reading right now go out and find it and watch it!). It examines the nature of truth as four people recount their own version of a story, which reveals that every person has their own viewpoint and perhaps the truth is always somewhere in-between.
On a related note, check out "Vantage Point" (2008).
The same story (a political assassination) is told several times, each time from another person's vantage point.
It sounds like it would be boring, but it's not. Each telling is unique, and brings more clues, so by the end of the movie you know who did it and why.
P.S.
I confess I did not "stop reading right now," but I will check into Rashomon after writing this.
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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colour (1/18/2018)
IMO, Film-making is filming the action., Animation is making the action. Putting it very simply.
With all of the awesome (Detailed Advice) given on filming.... this thread should be labeled, "Film Making Techniques."
As for 3d animation... there's mention of the seminar, but no (Detailed Advice) on animation techniques.
It would be super helpful to hear experienced users discuss how to actually animate "To follow a Script."
...blending mocap is one thing, but to actually animate with detailed steps to follow a script... wow!
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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As for 3d animation... there's mention of the seminar, but no (Detailed Advice) on animation techniques.
It would be super helpful to hear experienced users discuss how to actually animate "To follow a Script."
...blending mocap is one thing, but to actually animate with detailed steps to follow a script... wow
Hopefully I understand what you are saying correctly.
I have been looking into how to produce interesting stories based on the discussions here and at the moment looking into making short stories.
I see that having a point I want to make through my story is what will make it interesting and have been working on some points to make that will be easy for short stories.
It has dawned on me that maybe making short stories that highlight iclone animation methods might be some good points for a short story and I am thinking about posting them on the forum with explanations of how I made the story and how I did. the amimations, scene constructions etc. Well at least as well as I can explain them at least (I'm getting old.....rolling my eyes)
Im not exactly sure what Im going to do yet. Still thinking about it but I am thinking things such as the new partical effects.
Pick some of them and come up with a story that higlights what I find I can use those ones for.
An obvious example for me is the magical particles and using the purpose of demonstrating what you can do with them trough a short story about a wizard.
I hope that will help me improve myself with telling interesting stories and hopefully it will help beginners with doing things in iclone.
Another one I was thinking about was character walking styles.
Maybe start with a character who cant walk for some reason but something happens that enables him to start walking. I can use that to show lots of the walking styles in iclone?
I not sure that would make a good story yet.........maybe? It all depends on what I can come up with. But the point is I would be using the story to show iClones walking styles in an interesting way.
And that is the kind of starting points I am thinking of using for making stories. Demonstrating iclones abilities
I will be definitely starting new threads based on that and if anyone else thinks its a good idea and do the same/similar then great.
Also if anyone happens to post comments/suggestions to improve what I have done then again....great
UPDATE
Wasn't going to post this here but after seeing your post I thought I might as well
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By uncwee - 6 Years Ago
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Delerna
And that is the kind of starting points I am thinking of using for making stories. Demonstrating iclones abilities.
Thank you Delerna,
Animation - Wise:
I would love to start with one of the many given film making techniques and make the character perform according to the script.
Blending mocap is an awesome start, but my focus is on how to animate (the difficult part)... to follow a script.
Would love to see someone demostrate iclones abilities doing this.
Rampa (1/17/2018)
...It can also be challenging to animate all the activity of it for people without animation experience. It is for me.Me Too. 
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By theschemer - 6 Years Ago
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Alfred Hitchcock "To catch a thief" was one of my favorites. Very suspenseful.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I've been considering starting a spin-off thread.
The posts about "animating to a script" added some additional motivation.
Rather than start a new thread for that, I put a post in my "Corner" thread. There I volunteered some "filmmaking and "animation" critiques from a video that I animated to a script (one that I wrote, but I wrote it prior to doing the animation).
It's sort of an experimental post. I don't know if it will work or not. You can let me know over there.
Here's a handy link to it: https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost354841.aspx
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By rollasoc - 6 Years Ago
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theschemer (1/18/2018)
I have enrolled in several Udemy courses when they are priced so low you cannot pass them up. So I am deeply involved in getting better. It just takes time.
Any courses that you recommend? I bought a couple of Blender courses over Christmas (which I have yet to look at) and one on film scoring (since I got into animation because I wanted to make music videos, now I want to tell some stories too, which will need soundtracks).
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By gordryd - 6 Years Ago
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There are some interesting sample videos at this site (links below) about directing, camera angles, scene-blocking, etc. They talk about the "art & science" of using various camera angles/techniques to evoke distinct emotions from the viewer. The videos are samples of their product (DVD courses) but are still worth watching, IMHO. Doesn't replace having a good storyline, but another tool in the kit...
https://www.hollywoodcamerawork.com/the-master-course-in-high-end-blocking-and-staging.html
https://www.hollywoodcamerawork.com/hot-moves-the-science-of-awesome.html
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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@Gordryd,
Interesting courses.
I watched several of the clips.
It reminded me of "How a Director Stages and Blocks a Scene" by Filmmaker IQ.
Here, he shoots the same script 5 different ways.
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By rollasoc - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks for that, I will check out the the links.
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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Re Hollywoodcamerawork courses.
I bought these courses years ago and watch them often. They are not cheap but they are excellent. I thoroughly recommend them.
They teach the basics and some advanced parts of moviemaking.
https://www.hollywoodcamerawork.com/
Disclosure: Other than as a customer I have no relationship with hollywoodcamerawork.com
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Dennis,
Great share -- that's almost *exactly* what I was going to do except with animation.
My background is in theater (that's my degree) so blocking is one of the things near and dear to my heart. I think it behooves almost any animator to learn those principles because the closer our characters can behave like Real World folks the better the final product will look.
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By toystorylab - 6 Years Ago
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Wow, this is an interesting and helpfull thread, thanx for sharing...
Whether using a storyboard or not depends on my mood but it definitely is helpfull for bigger projects,
esp. when you have a commisioned work to clear your shots in advance with client...
I can recommend "Storyboarder", it's easy to work with and it even has a feature called "Shot Generator",
for quick results, as a reference to draw or for those who can't draw ;-)
You can import a script (.fountain or .fdx) or start "blank", export as video, pdf, gif, xml or print it...
And it has an "edit in Photoshop" button, updates automatically when saved in Photoshop...
You also can work (or let somebody work with better drawing skills) on real paper (template) and easily import to Storyboarder.
AND IT'S FOR FREE!
https://wonderunit.com/storyboarder/
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I went back to their page to read more about it.
Let's just say there is a very interesting and impassioned comment about Sony .  (In the "Why is Storyboarder free?" section.)
@Toystorylab... So, have you actually used the software much yourself? It looks interesting. Did they sell your email address to a hundred different spammers, or do they seem to behave ethically?
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By theschemer - 6 Years Ago
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rollasoc (1/19/2018)
[quote] theschemer (1/18/2018)
I have enrolled in several Udemy courses when they are priced so low you cannot pass them up. So I am deeply involved in getting better. It just takes time.
rollasoc (1/19/2018)
Any courses that you recommend? I bought a couple of Blender courses over Christmas (which I have yet to look at) and one on film scoring (since I got into animation because I wanted to make music videos, now I want to tell some stories too, which will need soundtracks).
I almost missed this post. I am all over the place in learning so this may not even help you but I too bought a few Blender courses and one Unreal Engine course. Then I added a Python course for the upcoming scripting support we are all anxiously waiting for. And some non-related CMS courses for website development. Which course on film scoring did you get??
Thanks,
TS
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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For those interested in storyboarding and screenwriting generally you might try hollywoodcamerawork's Causality application.
AFAIK it is free at the moment and can be downloaded from https://www.hollywoodcamerawork.com/causality.html
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By toystorylab - 6 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/21/2018)
@Toystorylab... So, have you actually used the software much yourself? It looks interesting. Did they sell your email address to a hundred different spammers, or do they seem to behave ethically?
Yes, i use the software (would not recommend if not...) and i had no increasing spam after giving them my email address.
It's hard to live in our digital world when beeing afraid your mail address could be "sold".
And i use a particular mail address when needed for stuff like this, so i don't really care if it is "sold"...
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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toystorylab (1/22/2018)
Yes, i use the software (would not recommend if not...) and i had no increasing spam after giving them my email address.
It's hard to live in our digital world when beeing afraid your mail address could be "sold".
And i use a particular mail address when needed for stuff like this, so i don't really care if it is "sold"...
Thanks.
I try to be prudent, but I'm not usually that cautious. For some reason, I hesitated this time when they asked for my email. I do have my "hobby" email (and a couple others), but I don't have a "junk" email address even though I've thought about it a couple of times.
Regarding the recommendation, some people will "recommend" something because it looked interesting, but haven't actually used it. I think I'll give it a try.
SeanMac (1/22/2018)
For those interested in storyboarding and screenwriting generally you might try hollywoodcamerawork's Causality application. AFAIK it is free at the moment and can be downloaded from https://www.hollywoodcamerawork.com/causality.html
I remember looking into Cuasality the last time someone mentioned it (maybe it was you). It looks very interesting, especially if working on a large story. I watched most, maybe all of the videos on their web site. One thing to be aware of is most of the "magic" is not free, meaning you need to properly and conscientiously enter all the data that drives the software. You need to correctly label and tag all the events, etc. If you do that, then I expect it can be a wonderful tool. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't read your mind (at least not the free version).
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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The paid version not only reads your mind, it takes your cash out of your wallet and closes your bank account.
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By toystorylab - 6 Years Ago
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A little review of Storyboarder:
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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@justaviking " I remember lookinginto Causality the last time someone mentioned it (maybe it was you [likely was. SM]). Itlooks very interesting, especially if working on a large story. I watchedmost, maybe all of the videos on their web site. One thing to be aware ofis most of the "magic" is not free, meaning you need to properly andconscientiously enter all the data that drives the software. You need tocorrectly label and tag all the events, etc. If you do that, then Iexpect it can be a wonderful tool. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't readyour mind (at least not the free version)."
I got the impression from using Causality that the software did tend to force the writer into an 'and then, because of that...' , and the Three Act Structure so worshipped by Hollywood. For me it is a template that works but it is not the only one. However if you are committing to an extended period of work, it is as well to accept structures which are generally accepted by the trade. Causality reminds me very much of a book on screenwriting by Brian McDonald, Invisible Ink. You often hear that screenwriting is all structure and this is what both the software and McDonald's book takes as a route in to a screenplay.
@KT. You said that, "The paid version not only reads your mind, it takes yourcash out of your wallet and closes your bank account." I hope and assume you were just being flip.
I am not someone who deals in internet scams. I own several software packages from Per Holmes and respect his expertise but I have no financial, or other relationship with the man or his company. And AFAIK there is, as yet, no paid-for product involved here. Apologies if this turns out not to be true. My recommendations are by way of a thankyou for all the help that has been given me and others in these pages.
I recommend products that I have worked with and therefore know a little about. I scan the forum for advice because like many another here, I realise that I have to do all the jobs that are in the credits at the end of a movie. I can use all the advice that will help me. I have always assumed that this advice was not motivated by any dishonourable motive. May I assume that you do the same?
"
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I was just joking because of the "free version doesn't read your mind" line (although I've looked at that software and, IMHO, it's basically what's wrong with Hollywood today. I would never use that but that's just me).
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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@Sean,
Good comments.
I don't remember the tool being tied to a specific structure, such as a 3-act format or anything like that. My recollection of the Causality tool (based on their videos, not personal hands-on experience) is mostly that it can help you rearrange your script, and you can insert place-holders.
For example, you could put something like "Hostage negotiation" when you are brainstorming and outlining your script. Later you can fill in the actual dialogue and stuff like that.
But one of the key things is "Cause and Effect" (thus, "Causality"). Back several pages in this thread, I mentioned "Because of that..." If you have linked your scenes (or "beats" or "elements", whatever you want to call them), then the software can help ensure key things happen in the correct order. If working on two story lines - the primary action story and the love story - you might rearrange parts many times to improve the flow and the pace and the emotion of the movie. But you need to remember that John and Jane meet because the bread burned into the oven... Because of that, Jane called the fire department, and because of that, Jane met John, the handsome fireman. So it helps you keep things like in their logical sequence when arranging many events. You could also, potentially, notice that some things lack their triggering event, but only if you really commit to using the tool.
SeanMac (1/22/2018)
I recommend products that I have worked with and therefore know a little about. I scan the forum for advice because like many another here, I realise that I have to do all the jobs that are in the credits at the end of a movie. I can use all the advice that will help me. I have always assumed that this advice was not motivated by any dishonourable motive. May I assume that you do the same?
I would like to be crystal clear, if that wasn't already the case - I was not questioning anyone's motives or ethics. (ToyStoryLab, Sean Mac, etc.)
Sometimes people "recommend" or suggest a tool that they've heard of, but don't necessarily know a lot about. I'm pretty sure I've done that myself, but I hope I always remember to make it clear if I've actually used it or not. "Causality" is a good example. I did some modest research on it, and in a conversation I might think of it and mention is as something a person might want to look into. On the other hand, I actually use Substance Painter and can recommend it based on my experience. So that's why I was curious if you actually used Storyboarder or not. It wasn't intended as a negative question.
P.S.
About the mind-reading version... I used to quip about that with my customers. When they wanted some really, really easy-to-use software magically perform complex business or engineering tasks, I always told them the mind-reading module costs extra. So thinking about the Causality application triggered that latent memory to resurface.
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By gordryd - 6 Years Ago
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I downloaded and used the free version of Causality awhile back, but it is limited (10 pages I think?) and you can't print, so it wasn't much value to me. I wasn't ready to plunk down $279 or whatever the going rate was for the full version, so I just re-read my "Save the Cat" e-book instead.
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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I have had causality ever since I saw its recommendation in the forum by whoever it was that posted it but only really started to use it now.
I cant say much about it because I am still learning to use it. I only know its basics at the moment.
However I am using it for my story for that story I am doing to show the magic particles and I am thinking it is going to help me in any future stories as well. I need to get better with using it fully before I can actually decide that but I like it so far. For this video I am working on I'm not using it to do the full story. I'm using it more like a storyboarder but its text instead of images.
I use Arc for each scenes I want to make. Group for the events, characters etc in the scene and story point for adding idea's and details for the event
Whether that is a good idea or not I haven't decided yet but again I think it is helping me with this story?
I am also using another project in it it to write notes, comments and ideas I get for each of the particle effects.
An Arc for each particle. In each arc I put some groups for points I want to describe. EG PROPERTIES, USES, etc
and in each of those I add story points to describe how to do it.
Because of that I am thinking this might be a good tool for more than just story telling. I think I might be able to use it for things like workflow layouts, maybe even building a workflow of story writing for myself.
I think that having these will help me with remembering the order of my workflow for some things. Help me discover and add improvements to a workflow.
grrrrrrrrrr, going beyond what I wanted to say. These are just ideas I'm getting. Whether they are good ideas for me or not I need to try it to find out.
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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Hmmmm I haven't gotten far enough to discover causalities limitations yet.
That may cause me to give up on it.
So far everything is OK for what I do with it
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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UPDATE
Silly me clicked post comment twice because it was reacting slow the first time I clicked it and I thought I might have missed clicking it properly
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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Delerna:
Been there, done that.
pete
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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Peterblood, good to see your comment.
From your previous posts I am assuming that you mean you've been there done that and gave up with it. Hmmmmm, and I may end up doing the same (if that is what you mean).
I work a lot like how you described yourself in a previous post. I tend to build the high details of the story as I create the video in iClone and not in tools like this.
I've been using this tool hoping it might help me organise my idea's and maybe help me improve myself with story telling. But no, I don't really know whether its a good tool yet.
I like it so far but wont be surprised if I do give up on it in the end?
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By rollasoc - 6 Years Ago
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theschemer (1/22/2018)
Which course on film scoring did you get??
Music Composition Bundle: Composition & Film Scoring 1 & 2
Orchestration 1: Compose Orchestral Music for Strings
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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Actually my friend, I meant that I've been fooled by the slow post time and re-posted without meaning to.
I'm retired and can't afford all the other programs I've seen discussed here. I focus on my character and my story,
press Iclone for everything I can get out of it, and carry on. If the story is solid, and I push myself on the animation
it'll play out well. More software means more time learning which means less time working on my story and, at my age,
time is my most precious resource and my greatest adversary.
pete
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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peterblood (1/23/2018)
A, at my age, time is my most precious resource and my greatest adversary. pete
Actually true of all of us, regardless of age (but the young just don't realize it).
Those of us who do will spend any amount of money to offset this (which is why I don't mind spending money on all the software if it means I save time -- Faceware is cheap at twice the price).
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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I meant that I've been fooled by the slow post time and re-posted without meaning to
Ohhhhh, oops ..... LOL at myself
time is my most precious resource
Totally agree with both your comments there. Time is money so I don't mind buying contents I need because it saves me the time it takes to create that content myself. I try to stick with only creating content I need /want that isn't already available or is too costly.
Anyway getting further off topic now so that's all I will say there
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By argus1000 - 6 Years Ago
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I like very much the Hollywood camerawork courses. A lot of learning resource there. But, whether you buy the lessons outright, or have them streamed (for $10 a DVD AND there are a whole bunch of them) on your computer, it's going to cost you MONEY. Lots of it.
Good thing that the Shot designer and Causality apps are free (or big parts of it). Shot designer looks awesome!
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By 4413Media - 6 Years Ago
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There's a few things that I wish to add.
I'm sitting down on Sunday night rerendering a scene again, I'll often retool and try a new approach when I do. This is part of my little outline in my notebook; I jot down these kind of notes for reminders. I think the theme of the whole scene and try to reflect it visually and in audio.
A character confronts the past and it stings. It feels like hell. Place in a roaring fire and bleach the color with orange and red. The sound of the campfire will roar louder and louder to reflect. I like using the distortion effect of the fire, use it.
...
...
Cut to a shot of the main character looking away in shame, pause, cut to the shot of the other character. Using an extreme close up, their facial expression changes to anger, the fire roars loud, as they grit their teeth.
'Were you apart of it?' Using close-ups and extreme close-ups as a showdown which the main character cannot win; the camera will cut closer and closer. Slow it down and hit hard. Show fear and have it hit hard. No music, just the campfire.
I would build and mold it into shots and the usual reshot. Every shot is important, every form of blocking, lighting, and angle is important. I can be really harsh, ask anyone who has sat down one to one with me and they ask me for honest opinions on their short. I will rip it apart and break it down to mush only to build again. I don't hold back on myself either I have rerendered shots in one production 11 times over and this was a time where I used iClone on a storebrand desktop PC. I render, walk away for 2 hours, come back and give a thumbs up or down. No realtime... I find out when I hit the render button and wait. If it was lousy, bad animation or shot, delete and do again. It's QC gone insane.
I do this insane adventure because of the outcome. I see Rene, Mark, and a few others raise the ante and I want to raise it as well when I release something. I love to tell stories, but I want them to pack a punch too and stand out from the others.The best thing to say is that someone can easily identify your work from the others, especially in this area.
Oh one last thing. Every single shot tells its story. What does this one tell you?
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By Pixtim - 6 Years Ago
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I follow this discussion from the beginning, it's very interesting. The experience and thoughts of everyone make me think a lot.
The observation that Kelleytoons gives in his first message is so true: "few people have made a complete film."
And yet, how many projects do we have each in our drawers?
If I look at myself, I realized about 600 small TV commercials, I created more than thirty shows (video mapping) whose duration is 5 to 20 minutes (I write the scenarios, I realize and I produce with one or two free lance). All these projects are finished and diffused.
I am lucky to have a great technical mastery of the entire digital creation chain .... but .... I have never finished a personal film project!
so why ? I have all the tools in my hands!
If I analyze today my different attempts, I think there are two main reasons:
1) I wanted to make projects too big for a single man. After several months, or years, I was discouraged by the magnitude of the task. And since it's not our livelihood, there are long periods during which we can not advance the project. Meanwhile, our head is changing, our thoughts are moving forward. Often the subject that we developed and which was at the heart of our concerns at the beginning of the project becomes less important for us. It becomes difficult to work on the project, other ideas come into our heads, other desires ... and ... we move on an other thing on without finishing, leaving tens or hundreds of hours of work. ..
2) the constant technical evolution ... when we do a project alone, it spreads rapidly over time. Software evolves all the time ... when you work on a project a little important, the technical and visual solutions that you have chosen at the beginning are not so good after one or two years ... so you start again your bases ... and it takes more time ... and the technical solutions are still evolving ... and finally you can not stand your project and you make another ....
These are the two main reasons (I think ...) that make me never finish a personal project. Currently, I have nothing in the course of work, but I think that my head prepares me something for a few months (without asking me my opinion!) ...
So if I go on a new project, I think that I will change several things in my way of proceeding.
_ I will write a script while being aware of the feasibility with my time and my tools constraints.
_ I will apply to myself what I say all the time to my clients ...: there are two possibilities for your project, 1: you show me what you want and I give you a quote (knowing that with lots of animated characters and lots of special effects you probably will not have the budget). 2: you tell me what is your goal and what is your budget and I find you a suitable solution.
Obviously .. this is the second solution that I will apply to myself
The third point I will change is that I will be more flexible on my requirements. There is always more than one way to convey an information, a sensation or an impression. If during production, I realize that a sequence is too complex to achieve, and well I will change the camera angle or I will find a suitable cheating.
(always in the principle of "it's better a finished project than another thing in the drawer!).
_ and finally: stop the arms race!
For that, define a clean graphic style and stick to it! Create a scenario and a storyboard for which we know that we already have all the adapted tools. And too bad if the new rendering engine Pouet-pouet gives a beautiful atmosphere!
So, I wanted to tell that because I'm sure that many of us have already experienced the death of a project because of these reasons and not because the scenario was bad or badly cut ...
To finish a project, you have to be humble (self-psychoanalysis : D !!!)
Ogier
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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The technical evolution aspect is a good observation -- iClone in particular has evolved so quickly (and fantastically) that I can see any project taking over a year having to deal with those changes.
My scope about projects is ALWAYS shorter, mostly because of my attention span. I know for a fact that if I don't complete something within a few weeks it just won't get done -- I get distracted by something else and lose interest. In the past this meant projects were VERY short -- nothing longer than a minute (personal projects -- my paid projects always held my interest because, well, money :>.
When I left 3D work to work in 2D the projects I could finish got a LOT longer -- our animation series (averaging around 25 minutes in length per show) were always done in a week or two. Around that time I used to push myself personally. I would give me a challenge to finish a particular animation in, say, an hour or two (depending on what it was). I got very good at that, when someone's birthday came up that day and I wanted to make them a birthday animation (three or four minutes) I wouldn't spend more than say an hour on it and whatever the state was at the end of that time was the final product.
When I switched over to iClone I started doing the same thing (am still doing it now). I think of it as I do weight-lifting -- you work out, work those particular animation muscles, so they become strong, and then you can animate much quicker than you would without the workout. I have *slowly* (sounds like an oxymoron but it's not) gotten to where I was with 2D -- still haven't done any long form (half hour) animations in iClone yet, but I'm getting there (all of my three or four minute animations, done to songs, were done in less than a week).
My point here is that no matter what the length of the animation you want, or your final goal, you can work out those muscles that allow you to animate by practice. But your practice can't just be pointless exercises. Make sure you set a goal of a finished animation, no matter how short it might be, and work on getting it done in a day or two. Then shorten that time to a single day, and then just a few hours. Eventually you'll get very good at going quickly and FINISHING (and, just as importantly, you'll learn what your weaknesses are and develop those accordingly).
The overriding thing here is to make a deadline and STICK TO IT. Even if it's artificial ("this needs to be done by 3pm") a deadline will help you organize your workflow and process in a way that nothing else can. When you are working to the clock you learn all KINDS of things you wouldn't otherwise.
(Oh, and to address another point -- I'm also OCD and know well the feeling of redoing a scene over and over and over again. But the workouts I devised helped me overcome that. I still wince when I look at my "finished" projects, out there for all to see, when I know I could spend just ONE more hour polishing a scene or taking care of an obvious (to me) error. But at least I'm getting them released, and that's far more important than getting anything perfect out there. Most of the best directors in the world would NEVER finish a film unless they had a deadline. Make sure you're one of them).
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By Ziggy72 - 6 Years Ago
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BenjaminTuttle (1/24/2018)
I would build and mold it into shots and the usual reshot. Every shot is important, every form of blocking, lighting, and angle is important. I can be really harsh, ask anyone who has sat down one to one with me and they ask me for honest opinions on their short. I will rip it apart and break it down to mush only to build again. I don't hold back on myself either I have rerendered shots in one production 11 times over and this was a time where I used iClone on a storebrand desktop PC. I render, walk away for 2 hours, come back and give a thumbs up or down. No realtime... I find out when I hit the render button and wait. If it was lousy, bad animation or shot, delete and do again. It's QC gone insane. Oh one last thing. Every single shot tells its story. What does this one tell you?
Agreed Ben, I do the same thing - render, re-render till it's right. Even if it's only one little detail, I'll do it again until it's right. As for the pic (we all know what film it's from, yeah? It's pretty famous...) you can see that the child is oblivious, the father is nervous and wants to stay apart from what's happening (physically and emotionally), the lawyer dude is slick and also oblivious (and very assured, in control), and the mother is stoic and doing what she thinks is right, ever if she does look like a Whistler painting. I'm not sure about Orson's lighting on this one, seems awfully bright, but that could just be to reflect the amount of snow outside. The point is that every frame is a painting. Take any good film and pause it on a random frame - it will look good. That's how you make a good film, work them frames
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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Pixtim:
"...the constant technical evolution ... when we do a project alone, it spreads rapidly over time. Software evolves all the time ... when you work on a project a little important, the technical and visual solutions that you have chosen at the beginning are not so good after one or two years ... so you start again your bases ... and it takes more time ... and the technical solutions are still evolving ... and finally you can not stand your project and you make another ..."
I agree with both you and Kelley on this. I'm doing a project now that I started in IC5 then moved into IC6 which, except for the lighting enhancements, wasn't a big leap forward, and now onto IC7. I expect to have to go back and redo some special effects but, other than that, I don't expect any crazy changes. I'm somewhat blissful in my ignorance of all the things Iclone is capable of, but then I'm producing an animated comic book and not Citizen Kane. I'll be experimenting of course and I will discover new ways to approach my video making efforts, but I'm confident that my basic style will not change because of new features. I'm All-In with Iclone at this point so "Onward into the fog!".
pete
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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On the point of working 2 or 3 minute videos is more likely to get completed, yes I totally agree.
However the way I see things is that I can turn a longer story into many individual 2 or 3 minute projects
I actually do that with my favourite Harry Potter fan fiction stories that I want to turn into videos for personal watching.
I start by breaking the story text up into many files for potential iclone projects. I look for specific scenes/events in the story and I then treat each one of those as its own unique project.
That way I can work on any part of the story I feel like working on because I'm not thinking about making the whole story.
Rather I think about what I need to improve my capabilities for (improve my scene creation, improve my character animation, improve my texturing, work with particles etc). and then look for something in the projects that I can use for improving that.
Eventually I end up with enough short projects that I can use their outputs in my video editing software to work on putting the whole story together. In iClone I treat them all as a single 2 to 3 or maybe even a 5 to 10 minute project.
It is only in my video editing software where I work on them all as part of single story. I may need to go back to some of the iClone projects to adjust its output so it fits the story in my video editor better but I find that not too bad.
Not suggesting this is how anyone else should do it, I know and accept that i'm not an expert.
Just stating how I do it and posting it as something for new users to see and possibly help them to develop their own methods.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Do you have a link to any of your HP stuff? My wife and I are kind of fanatics about him, and I wouldn't mind seeing what you've done.
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By Delerna - 6 Years Ago
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I think this might be a little off topic but I think it is also related to the topic to a fair degree, so.....
Here is my first attempt 3 years ago at what I was saying above.
After putting this on UTUBE I felt guilty putting it there because its not my story so I never posted any more of them. I published it back then to help the person who I bought all his harry potter characters from.
Saved me a lot of time buying his characters.
Anyway, I cut the story up into projects and I used this one to help me determine 2 main things.
1) Is it effective to use 2D images instead of 3D modelling for backgrounds in a scene?
I think under certain circumstances it is definitely effective. The only 3D models in this are the characters, everything else are 2D images
2) How to get the characters looking at each other as they talk easily and effectively.
Here, I added a cube for each character to look at and then all I needed to do was go to a frame and move the cube to where I wanted the character to look
Made animating the head movements very easy and movements of the character they were looking at didn't make their head move unexpectedly.
I used the scene as part of a long video much later. But while I was creating that it was the whole project I was making and nothing else was considered.
Well honestly, not thinking about the long video while working on each individual project is something I have to work hard to keep out of my head so I can just focus on the project I'm working on and what I am trying to learn.
But I make myself do it and I find it works for me.
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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I've had to move projects from earlier versions of iClone as well, with mixed results because of slight differences in the animation engine or by using the newer characters.
I use the Pinhead projects to do something fairly quick (reusing sets and such), but other projects take longer, because of the way I work. Creating sets takes time, for example. I don't mind that. I also tend to mull things over. Some projects are a bit beyond my technical skills, so they will have to wait. It is an idea, though, to intersperse short projects with longer ones.
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By 4413Media - 6 Years Ago
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An interesting thing happened tonight; I got a system up and running for personal chats and meetings, similar to webinars that Reallusion hosts, if anyone is interested.
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By Brick Loko - 6 Years Ago
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Hi,
Fascinating topic. Make me think that until now, the majority of Iclone animations that I saw were more action-oriented (characters walk, jump, fight), but it was rare to find animations with characters dialogues or conversations or better facial animations. It`s difficult creating attachment with viewers using characters without intentions, only actions.
With the improvements of IClone 7 facial animations, probably we will start to see a more diverse type of animation. I`m struggling to implement that on my animations, it's not an easy task. But at least we have better tools inside iClone to support me.
Anyway, I just find several tips that could help us to better plan a scene and storyboard. I`m still looking for suggestions/tips on how to express intentions with character animation.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Yes, you have summed up exactly what I was referring to when I started this thread.
Now, you *can* tell a story without people -- it's very, very difficult, but it can be done. But it's a bit like trying to play tennis with one hand tied behind you -- you are creating an almost impossible task for yourself needlessly. People are what we identify with, and their actions and how they overcome (or not) difficulties are what storytelling is all about. You can do this as well without sophisticated tools, and certainly without dialog or even facial expressions, but all those things help greatly (which is why almost 99% of all movies have some dialog and ALL of them have some facial expressions).
Animation has the advantage that, as long as we don't dip too far into the uncanny valley, folks are willing to "cut some slack" in regards to how your characters look and behave. They will attribute feelings and emotions to them you don't show (this also happens even with live action -- we are great at assuming we understand things that aren't even there, which results in many different interpretations of the same film). But the more realistic your character gets, the more the audience will expect them to behave realistically.
The number one mistake I see people making in animations is rushing things -- whether it's an action scene or (even more importantly) a scene meant to convey an emotion, the viewer needs time to understand what's going on, and you need to set it up. It's what was mentioned either in this or Dennis' corner thread about needed some frame of reference: if you just show something without enough TIME for folks to process, then you aren't doing it right.
This is especially true of the opening of anything -- later on, when things get hot and heavy you can speed things up. But when you start, taking even 10 or 15 seconds (an eternity in a shot) to linger on a character's face, or show the environment they are in, will go a LONG way towards letting the viewer get immersed in the world you are creating. I want to see SLOWER animations, not faster -- doesn't mean the action has to be slow, but the editing shouldn't all be "Transformers" paced.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (1/26/2018)
The number one mistake I see people making in animations is rushing things -- whether it's an action scene or (even more importantly) a scene meant to convey an emotion, the viewer needs time to understand what's going on, and you need to set it up.
This is one place where a lot of iClone animators (filmmakers) are at a disadvantage. If you see non-professional video on YouTube, you expect it to be short and you expect it to jump right into the action. A good movie will often take 5 minutes to set the mood and establish a feel for the movie. The opening credits sequence can be as long as most of the videos we make. Sadly, a typical YouTube viewer will be likely to stop watching after 30 seconds if nothing interesting has happened yet.
I confess to having that bias myself. If I sit down to watch a DVD, I am prepared to watch a 2-hour movie. But if I click on a YouTube link... my expectation is more like 5 to 10 minutes of run time in most cases.
So fair or not, in addition to the sheer amount of work that goes into making a long iClone project, it can be hard to prepare your audience to sit down for a longer, more patient (and better) film.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Nah, I disagree with this 100%. A good story, no matter what it is, no matter the platform, done well, will ALWAYS hold folks' attention. If it's not done well it doesn't matter how fast it's edited (i.e. Transformers films -- I get bored within five minutes no matter where I'm dropped down into it).
Short form work needs to be faster paced, but that doesn't mean it can't take the time necessary to setup the action (or, in my case mostly, the jokes). The thing that I've done that has the most views of all (around 78 thousand) on YouTube isn't particularly fast paced, but it is, all modesty aside, very well done. (It's "How the Zurg Stole Christmas" if you want to look it up). It even uses familiar memes and rhymes that, in general, are much slower than current paced stuff is.
And I don't mean you can't have something that drives forward, again, as long as you pause from time to time to establish what the heck is going on. But don't take my word for it -- give it a shot. I suspect you'll find out that by taking the right amount of time your work will not only improve greatly, but folks will like it a LOT more.
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By thebiz.movies - 6 Years Ago
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Understanding the medium (and thus your audience) is a really great point and there's no need to apologize for yourself or the audience for their inability to stay fixed in the way things were. Sitting down at a computer or iPad or phone to watch some entertainment is completely different than going to the cinema in the same way that sitting down to listen to a radio drama was different from watching TV. The size of the screen (in which your rich and languid slow pan of the environment can all be for naught on a 3" screen), the environment the audience is in (often well lit with many external influences), the peripherals (ie. headphones, vr) used while watching, the lack of collective viewing can all have an effect on the end result.
In my opinion brevity and judicious editing are keys to keeping attention. Yes, you can slow things down when the story requires it but you better have already purchased the credibility to do so or they will move right along to the next thing. (P.S - KT, we both agree that the transformer movies are incoherent and unwatchable. There are many reasons for this and yes the editing is one of them.)
On the subject of the view of the creator versus the audience...I once got really irritated at a comment about the length of my end credits (I had spent a week hand animating about 500 frames of a fish waving his tale in The Movies Game Machinima). In the end I came to realize that while all that effort was interesting to me as a creator (and in fact interesting to others working with the same software from a technical standpoint) it just wasn't to the end user. This is akin to the creator who spend hours creating the sets and then avoids using closeups on the characters because he wants the details of the sets to be noticed. Unless the story is about the sets, the audience isn't likely to care.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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One thing we can agree upon -- credits (whether end or beginning) are NEVER the place to spend time.
Back when folks made "films" (even if Super 8 or other) it always amused me when the credits were elaborate and long and then... the film never got finished. Can't tell you how many times I've seen beginning credits for unfinished work. Kind of like "and now let's frost the cake -- we'll bake the cake later". I *really* like the way modern films have, by and large, dispensed with beginning credits, but they could also go the whole mile and chop the end off as well (let folks go to the internet to see who worked on what. Do I *REALLY* need to know who the accountants or caterers were for this film? I've almost never said "ya know, this film seemed especially well catered"). Many classic amazing films have one or at the most two title cards at the end. That's all that's needed.
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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I think JAV and KT are both correct... people WILL watch a good story regardless - but - the same people may not watch aforementioned story the moment they see the duration is 14 mins, or if nothing amazing happens in the first 30 seconds. Hollywood has this same problem... which is why the "Trailer" or "Preview" has become essential and will "make or break" a film's success a drawing an audience. So, after months of building an animation maybe the key is to "give 'em a tasty snack" in the form of a 30 sec trailer. There are "too many" videos vying for our attention on YouTube and Vimeo - and let's face it, we all think our time is valuable so we don't want to waste it by "taking a chance" or "waiting to see if it get's interesting" etc.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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I also have to agree about the amount of time I'll expect to spend when watching a video on youtube, or even here on the forum.
I have two major problems I encounter in amateur videos, and I'm talking about videos which contain a cohesive story and not a clip. The first is the apparent
inability of some video authors to make their scenes appear as three dimensional. By that I mean, that many videos look like they were shot in the
1920's with everything being flat to the camera and not showing any of the perspective we see everyday in real life. This type of video usually is
accompanied by a lack of proper lighting (and shadowing) to enhance the feel of a three dimensional world. (Obviously I'm not talking about 2D
animation here.) If the world is flat, I lose interest quickly.
The other thing that bugs me is a lack of different settings. So often I see an entire story carried out in one location. Sure you might view the set
from different angles but it's the same set over and over for the entire length of the production. Moving your story around keeps the audience interested
for a longer time. If your character is in his living room and is describing a critical event to another character, then build a set of the event location and show the
event happening. Don't have your character tell us about it, that's a buzz kill if ever there was one. And don't cheapen up on your set. A cheap set will destroy
the immersion as fast as cheesy dialog. Our audience is fickle and, as stated before by others, not inclined to watch more than 15 minutes of an animated story.
A great story might drag them through 20 minutes of boring sets, but good sets spark interest and changing them out when appropriate keeps the pace moving
and enhances the viewers appreciation and understanding of the story being told.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I call BS but see Dennis' thread for fuller explanation (I'm too tired to go back and forth).
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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Kelley:
Please explain.
pete
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By 4413Media - 6 Years Ago
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I'll be starting a little lecture series tomorrow. No livestreaming, but actually more of a group setting.
The first topic will be covering aspect ratios. Feel free to send me a message if you're interested.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 6 Years Ago
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SeanMac (1/22/2018)
../..I got the impression from using Causality that the software did tend to force the writer into an 'and then, because of that...' , and the Three Act Structure so worshipped by Hollywood. For me it is a template that works but it is not the only one. However if you are committing to an extended period of work, it is as well to accept structures which are generally accepted by the trade. Causality reminds me very much of a book on screenwriting by Brian McDonald, Invisible Ink. You often hear that screenwriting is all structure and this is what both the software and McDonald's book takes as a route in to a screenplay../..
No offense here but I believe you completely misunderstood the application.
Causality does not enforce the use of any kind of structure, but does enforce you to respect your own decisions/rules and - yes - the causalities you created, hence the software name (the software itself does not decide of the causalities in your place). And this is why it is a fantastic tool imho. You can structure your story anyway you want, there is no receipt in there but if you decide, for instance, that one of your characters becomes angry after a certain event, then it will help you avoiding the mistake to insert actions where the character seems happy after this event. So yes, it will force the writer into a "then because of that" - a character injured after a car accident surely must not appear healthy anytime soon after the accident (or recovery period) if you choose to respect that logic (but you can still show him in a flashback if you want to, or break that rule if you decide your character has superheros speed health recovery capability) - but it is not the software who choose that for you.
Respecting causalities is kind of a basis in any story telling. I certainly wouldn't read or like any story that does not respect that.
I have to admit the software is not cheap though, but if you are serious in story telling and script writing, it worth every penny. The Layered Arc by itself is really great, it helps create and maintain consistency to whatever you want (character evolution, city evolution, a specific event over time across multiple sequences or scenes, etc..). I can't wait to see their future addons (Cloud and Production), combined with iClone Python (granted this will really happen) this could solve a lot of production automation issues and help having a solid workflow and pipelines.
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By son.m - 6 Years Ago
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I got often asked by friends "why don't you tell a story using iClone (or a game for a story as game machinima).
My answer was always the same: To tell a visual story that is interesting for me I would need voice actors and that means I depend on others. Of course it is possible to use just subtitles or tell a story without any spoken dialogues but while I dislike a video story that needs text to make (more) sense, I find it quite hard to tell a complete logical story without any dialogues in few minutes (I saw some great short stories that were told via iClone without any dialogues and it's fascinating to see that, but overall I'd say these stories are rare).
So for me if I want to tell a story I stick to written stories, which allows me to tell the story I want without the help of others (like voice actors). If I want a combination of different aspects like music/motions/visuals/effects I use iClone. Creating music/dance videos via iClone is most interesting for me and the reason why I originally bought it. Another advantage for me is that a music video has a time limit around 3-5 minutes so I am able to finish it without waiting x months or years what I had to if I created a storyline animation.
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By thedirector1974 - 6 Years Ago
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What is the problem to work with voice actors? If you want to tell a story, it is essential to have some good actors. It is not so difficult to find people, who can do it.
If you have a good story, don't let this thing turn away from that story. Just do it!
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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son.m (1/28/2018)
I got often asked by friends "why don't you tell a story using iClone... My answer was always the same: To tell a visual story that is interesting for me I would need voice actors and that means I depend on others....
I find it quite hard to tell a complete logical story without any dialogues in few minutes.
First - As TheDirector said, please don't let the reliance on voice actors stop you from creating your vision. There have several good posts (even in the last few days) about finding voice actors, including free ones.
Second - For stories without dialogue, check out all the Pixar Shorts. Most have no dialogue, and are totally awesome. Perhaps you'll get some inspiration there.
Good luck.
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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To add to this: 3 to 5 minutes is an acceptable length for an animation and enough to tell a story.
An inspiring book in that regard is by Bill Plympton: "Make Toons That Sell Without Selling Out". He prefers the short being short, and one of his other comments is that by telling the story without dialog, you will more easily reach an international audience.
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By Peter Blood - 6 Years Ago
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I  my voice actors.
They're easy to work with and, although they are amateurs, get almost everything to my satisfaction on the first take. I can't thank them
enough for their incredible generosity in helping my stories come alive.
My first story, a game machinima, has no actors voices and I had to tell the story in written dialog. (I admit to being scared of use my own voice at the time.)
Luckily, I had an extensive library of period background voices available from the game which I was able to place in the soundtrack to add atmosphere.
I don't mind subtitles as I watch a fair number of foreign movies. [Mostly Chinese Kung-Fu flicks. ]
pete
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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“Respectingcausalities is kind of a basis in any story telling. I certainly wouldn't reador like any story that does not respect that.” Grabiller. @grabiller I agree, of course; how could anyone disagree? Thereason I looked a little askance at the ‘and then, because of that’ flow of events in a screenplay or in any other work of fiction is that this simple pattern seems to me to run contrary to the contemporary experience of life and to the contemporary pattern of storytelling. I suggest we experience our lives and tell our stories more as a mosaic of unconnected events that we contrive to parallel, compare and contrast, consider as metaphors and so on, in an effort to extract meaning. Consider the A,B and C plotline structure so favoured by continuing dramas. At the transfer points when the writer switches from A to B surely we are not at that moment saying ‘and because of that’? There is IMHOno ’and because of that’ about ‘Meanwhile back at the ranch’. William Goldman of ‘Adventures in the Screen Trade’ tells of an incident where he, ascreenwriter, and another man, a producer, were driving along the freeway talking over the sound from the car radio when there was a coincidental radio announcement that cast a light on the subject of their discussion. The two men simultaneously turned towards one another and each said ‘A Movie Moment!’ The A,B and C braid structure can interweave in a craftsmanlike fashion to add value to stories that would otherwise be too simple to entertain adults. I am not knocking simple stories. They have their place, especially, I suggest, in short form narratives. Thank you for the ‘no offense’, and I assure you no offense was taken. I am happy to discuss these subjects with those who have clearly thought deeply about them. I respect their opinions and do not expect them to coincide with mine.I hope we can all learn from one another.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 6 Years Ago
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SeanMac (1/29/2018)
../.. I suggest we experience our lives and tell our stories more as a mosaic of unconnected events that we contrive to parallel, compare and contrast, consider as metaphors and so on, in an effort to extract meaning. Consider the A,B and C plotline structure so favoured by continuing dramas. At the transfer points when the writer switches from A to B surely we are not at that moment saying ‘and because of that’? There is IMHOno ’and because of that’ about ‘Meanwhile back at the ranch’.William Goldman of ‘Adventures in the Screen Trade’ tells of an incident where he, ascreenwriter, and another man, a producer, were driving along the freeway talking over the sound from the car radio when there was a coincidental radio announcement that cast a light on the subject of their discussion. The two men simultaneously turned towards one another and each said ‘A Movie Moment!’ The A,B and C braid structure can interweave in a craftsmanlike fashion to add value to stories that would otherwise be too simple to entertain adults. I am not knocking simple stories. They have their place, especially, I suggest, in short form narratives../.. Causality allows you to do exactly that. Causality helps you to enforce the causalities *you* create, it does not enforce any story structure or pattern, this is what you don't understand - or rather what I failed to clearly explain, my fault.
You can do A, B, C, you can do A to Z if you want and cross cut anywhere you want. But *this because of that* remains valid, not in terms of *actions* but in terms of *status*. In the case of A, B, C, you create one *Arc* or a chain of *Arcs* for each plotline, and you enforce consistency internally in each plotline (and even internally to each plotline you may decide to add rules between story points or not, you can have both, it's all up to you), but then you are free to cross cut between A and B and C anytime you want (unless you added rules between A and B or C and this is where it becomes very helpful). You can even brake all the rules of storytelling if you want it to, but at least, with this tool, you will do so knowing you are doing it, on purpose, and not because you forgot something.
I'm not trying to sell you Causality, I'm just trying to encourage you to have a second and better look at it - free of the writing patterns tunnel vision issue you seems to have developed towards this tool - because you may have missed something otherwise you may have found, in fact, very useful, interesting and powerful.
Sorry for insisting : ) I'm not a Causality evangelist, but what bothers me is that currently you are not seeing Causality as it really is and you are developing a false opinion about it that may spread over the forum or elsewhere over the Internet and I found that very unfair, so I'm trying to "restore the truth* ; )
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By SeanMac - 6 Years Ago
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Hi grabiller
Thanks for that.
What can I say? You may well be right and I should take another look at Causality.
I do admit being addicted to the braid of A, B and C, and I was not aware that there was any way to link the strands other than storyboarding.
I'll see how it goes.
Regards
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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I went through the Causality tutorials yesterday and I can see it being very helpful for structuring a story. It indeed allows you to become very sophisticated if you so choose. What I like is the visualization, which I think would help me.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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I was going to try to pull this into the "Structure" thread, but will reply here...
A couple comments based on some recent posts in this thread:
a) Neither software (such as Causality) nor using a structure to the story forces you to write from beginning to end in a linear fashion. You can still jump around to any part of your story as inspiration hits. The tools just help ensure you don't have missing things or "flow" issues.
b) The "Because of that..." approach doesn't need to be used like a club on your audience's heads. The point is that, in addition to entertainment, things should be in the story to move it forward, and major events in the story should be a "natural" result of what's happened before. Random or "Dues ex machine" (god from the machine) events are too-often the result from weak writing.
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