I completely agree will2power71,

A control point system would be wonderful!  Just to be able to work with the face bones that are already there would be a big plus in my book.  CC characters have a lot of potential and I'd like full control of every bone especially the upper and lower lips so that I can show realistic mustache and beard animations to go along with the visemes, I've seen others are making successful strides with beards but no evidence that a mustache can be attached to the upper jaw or upper lip and move with them.  :)


Dell XPS 8900, Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 3408 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s), 16 GB RAM, - 4 GB GeForce GTX 745, NVIDIA compatible.
Acer Aspire V Nitro Laptop,  2.5GHz Intel Core i5-7300HQ processor with 6MB cache,  256GB solid state drive, 16GB Ram,  4 GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti graphics.

The key thing that I was trying to point out that goes along with what Gentlegiant783 pointed out was that we seemed to take a step back from 5 to 6. Most of us seem to want the same thing --greater control over what comes out of the  face. I think the only thing we may vary on is how best to accomplish this. The reason I am in favor of a system similar to Poser 11's new control point system is that control points can be tied to anything --a bone or a set of bones or a morph. Those people who have morphs can link them to a control point, whereas someone who's using a bone based model, can link bones or a set of bones to a control point. I like the idea of using something that can be used as you please and not tying people down to a set way of thinking. People may want to stick with the puppet controls, but then there are others like myself who want to work with something more suited to the way we choose to animate personally. 

Personally, I would rather spend time to set up a control scheme that's a bit more detailed, and be able to apply it to any model I create. That's because the figures that I work with now are DAZ Genesis 3 figures with the built in face bones. For me, that means that I could set up the control points one time and be able to apply them to ANY DAZ Genesis 3 characters that I want to work with much like we do with HumanIK Now. I favor a control point type system because once it's set up, you have to do very little menu hopping in order to do this or that. The thing with the puppet system that is a choke point for me is that If I want to do one thing I have to click to select them, then click into menus a lot to control one thing and then switch to another. When you have a control point, you eliminate a lot of clicking -which is what I'm after. I could say the same thing for the Character Creator Characters as well--as different as they look, they're all rigged the same for the most part. 

sw00000p, not implying you or anyone else is a puppet hater :w00t: That was directed at impressions I may have made on my facial animation crusade.

I also subscribe to Jason Osipa's methodologies for facial animation. IMHO it's the best method on the facial animation and lipsync out there. 

A look at his demo will make you a believer - So realistic it's creepy!



His approach is simple, straight forward, logical, efficient...  Sadly there's a couple things keeping IC from being able to use his approach as intended. Everyone's got a wishlist but every animator would benefit from a great face rig. ;)

MOCAP is great, I've dabbled enough to know simply talking to a camera won't produce, amazing render ready performances - quick and easy. Acting is an Art - If it was easy We'd all be Movie Stars! :Whistling:

Even with the best software / hardware running through a very fast PC with the latest and greatest gfx card. - You'll only get what you put in and I'm not just talking about money.  If you're a high energy expressive person who loves to perform this is the way to go. -  I'm not :Whistling:

I've found it easier to go to frame 1735 and make a frustrated facial expression if it synced with audio. If I decide it's not a frustrated emotion I want, it's an angry one at frame 1742 - I tweak the facial rig and timeline - DONE!

MOCAP  =  rehearse, record, review, redo, edit...  mocap is cool,  just don't think it's as easy as talking to a camera and creating art.

I'm grateful, thankful and fascinated by the magic of making these amazing characters and bringing them to life though animation!

Thanks for the opportunities RL!

I sincerely hope I've never intentionally offended anyone on a personal level ( artistically I can only apologize :Whistling: )





Virtual Media® / VTV® / The Virtual Entertainment Network...
http://VTVLive.com

I’ve been on the sidelines for 9 months. I bought the perception neuron mocap system, but I’m not using it... not until iClone incorporates facial mocap to the level of quality and ease-of-use of Faceware software. With Faceware, you can use your iPhone to record a face and then immediate use it to animate you character with incredible results. 

The moment we can bring in facial mocap into our iClone project, Reallusion’s software will explode in popularity. I loved everything I experienced and my ability to create detailed, beautiful scenes in iClone and Character Creator. 

Reallusion needs to allow us to bring in facial animation or give us a facial mocap user interface, and then we can watch the iClone-craze spread around the world. 

I'm with sw00000p and will2power71 on a morph slider system being built into IC. As with most things there are workarounds, however requesting an update to simplify and enhance the process is no-brainer.

I'm not against puppet tools, in fact long ago I posted a detailed request for a keyboard shortcut to set keys while using Face Puppet. It would be a great update I can't imagine being that difficult to implement and would be a nice .update to hold us over till the facial animation overhaul.

The puppet tool is simple yet powerful tool I'm surprised isn't implemented in more pro tools -  Their great for simple fast, pre-viz and other animation styles. That aside, every animation course I've taken always uses and expressly states keyframes, curve editors and timing are the most important tools in an animators arsenal.  With facial animation timing is crucial, when combined with the perfect, unique expression it can be magical.

Will morph sliders and a curve editor make every IC user a great animator...? If only it were that easy :Whistling:  I do however believe, with years of forum posts to back it up that these additions would be one of the best investments RL could add to IC.

---------------------------------------------

IC Facial Animation Game Changer

Implement an RL style easy to use curve editor
An obj morph slider system similar to CC's for custom expressions / exaggerations
IC puppet tools with added keyboard shortcut for setting keys while using the puppet tool.
Re-implement the detail tab for pushing, pulling, rolling and expanding numerous facial points around brows, lips, lids, cheeks...
Easy facial animation export

If implemented well this would make RL's facial animation system an incredible asset for animators from beginner to Pro.


Virtual Media® / VTV® / The Virtual Entertainment Network...
http://VTVLive.com

Thank you Peter for stepping in and drawing a clear line. Everyone should feel safe voicing their opinion within the bounds of forum rules. Indeed those who disagree with points raised in discussions should focus on merits/demerits of the argument instead of attacking or baiting the person. My track record here speaks for itself. I believe I got baited. For some reason I didn't see it coming sooner but I am wiser now. Lesson learned. 

You've definitely got my vote on that one! Anything that gives you a more precise set of controls to work with is of great interest to me. So when they say that morph sliders are coming in iClone 7, it makes me wonder if they're going to be available to you in the face puppet room. If they are, then I'll be ecstatic.

As I'm sure many of you will notice, several posts from this thread have been deleted because once again discussion turned into arguments and infighting.

While passionate discussion is fine, we will no longer tolerate the constant arguments that seem to descend on almost every thread lately. Please let me be clear, any arguing or infighting between forum members will see the posts removed immediately and possibly the entire thread if the OP is part of the arguments.

I really urge to stop this constant bickering and try to discuss issues like adults. We should all be able to have different opinions without resorting to personal attacks. A continuation of this behaviour may lead to temporary or even permanent bans being issued for all parties involved.


                                                                

Peter
Forum Administrator

www.reallusion.com

Same here. I have done some awesome stuff with iClone. My dream is for iClone to be so good it's the only 3D tool I need. I know it's possible so I keep pushing for user driven enhancements.

Cheers for michael7, keep up the good work. sw00000p doesn't have a very high opinion of iClone users, even if they actually accomplish something.

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