There are people who actually use iClone 6, so they may be a helpful source of information. Just ask. iClone 5 is different from iClone 6 as facial animation was primarily vertex-based.

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I find it to be absolutely horrid to work with, so I don't. Like sw00000p has pointed out many times, I find that doing what you're after in other more robust applications is the only alternative available at the moment. Reallusion's hinted at improvements in facial animation --I really hope that doesn't mean more Crazytalk stuff. Of course, if they were to allow you to set up a control points instead of the imprecise puppet control moves, that would make me really happy, but you can't have it all --or can you?

I don't know, what were you thinking? I'd love to see an example of some of your work with iclone 6 and maybe you could then point out what you had hoped to achieve with it and where iclone failed you? This would be really helpful in clarifying your point.
 I work very hard at what I do,I tend to be a perfectionist and from my own personal experience thus far iclone hasn't failed me. I'm not saying it's perfect but it's pretty dam good, and I've been able to get a full range of expressions on my characters, at the right moment I needed it, with smooth transitions from one expression and character movement to the next.

Will I'm not here to defend iclone, but I've worked with shit, and I've made it work.  From that experience I can tell you iclone is not shit. What do you find so horrid about it, is the main issue the lack of control points as you say and having to rely on puppet movement? I think I know why iclone proceeded the way they did with this. In trying to make a program that anyone can get a good start in and a seasoned animator can learn to excel in iclone decided the best approach was to push the development of puppetry. BECAUSE, the main problem area in animating a character in a sequence with control points or sliders is, as good as your imagination and innate sense of timing might be, or how good you think it might be, you never really know how the sequence is going to look until you render it and play it back. And often it's far from perfect and you have to go back and tweak and retweak anyway, and then render again  each change to check it out. With the puppetry iclone has, and it's ability to blend one expression onto another and to create seemless transitions, it's created a very powerful tool. and you can be VERY precise with it. It's just a simple matter of defining the area you want the new effect to take place in on the timeline, selecting the expression you want the character to have, and if it's not there in the expression editor you make one in 3DXchange and bring it in ( and that's pretty simple ), switching the playback from real time to frame so the whole process slows down, do a couple of preview runs so you know where on the screen to start your mouse movement at and generally where to stop, then record. And if the clip isn't quite the right speed or it's too long etc. you have the ability to edit that as well by speeding it up, or cutting parts out. It might just come down to how different people prefer to work. For myself I'm pretty happy with the program. If you want to continue the conversation though I'm more than happy to hear of what you think of other programs and where you think they are better if you have some specific examples.

BTW Sw000p;
" ~ Adjusting Vertex Animation with sliders. ~ (GREAT IDEA) "Progressive Morphing"
...BUT....Reallusion omitted the "Morph Mixing Panel""


No they didn't. It's just not all in iclone. 3DXchange let you bring in any morph sliders on a character you want, fiddle with them in there if you want to as well, and then import them into the expression editor in iclone.

you tediously tweak iClone's animation to (Achieve Smooth Results).

I've never had to tediously tweak iclone's animation to get smooth results. I don't know what else to tell you. It's very possible that 3ds Max is faster for you. I'd still like to see an example of an animation if your willing.

Michael, 

What I don't like about puppeteering is that the control may be smooth, but it is imprecise in that you cannot achieve as consistent a result as facial animation tools based on control points, or a tool that allows you to more precisely control what is going on. Lipsyncing is pretty good, but a control point can have it's own timeline position, as well as offering speed in the way that the only thing you have to do is grab the gizmo and move it. I advocate letting go of the puppet control system because it is not precise and there are other methods that are, and are just as easy to use.



The thing is, it's even easier to set up in iClone because the CC characters have identical rigging setups. One well developed control rig will blow away anything you can do in the puppet control setup because it's precise. The animator is able to achieve exactly what he or she wants without a lot of trial and error. The same thing can be said for those of us working with DAZ Genesis 3 Models with their new face rigging system --having a control rig maximizes your ability to make subtle changes in the performance without overwriting what you've already done. With the puppet controller, many of us find ourselves doing and redoing things because the puppet controller is okay for major movements but not so great for fine control. I don't want to guess at what the model will do when I pull up or down on the mouse --I want to know exactly what's going to happen. I have yet to see a puppet control performance that can equal what you can do with an honest to goodness control rig. 

I'm not saying get rid of the puppet controls. I realize enough people use them and are comfortable with them. But I am an advocate of a proper control rig for Character Creator Models and imported Characters with the user having the ability to control a bone or a morph in a way that can be precisely controlled. 



Those are just two examples of different methodologies that I find to be more attractive as an animator than trying to use the face puppet controls . You just have to do to much clicking in to get to the heart of your character's performance. I'm eager to see the improvements they've hinted at, but as it stands now I am not remotely interested in using the face puppet tool for any sort of character animation. I even posted suggestions to that effect here in the feedback tracker.

Cheers for michael7, keep up the good work. sw00000p doesn't have a very high opinion of iClone users, even if they actually accomplish something.

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Same here. I have done some awesome stuff with iClone. My dream is for iClone to be so good it's the only 3D tool I need. I know it's possible so I keep pushing for user driven enhancements.

As I'm sure many of you will notice, several posts from this thread have been deleted because once again discussion turned into arguments and infighting.

While passionate discussion is fine, we will no longer tolerate the constant arguments that seem to descend on almost every thread lately. Please let me be clear, any arguing or infighting between forum members will see the posts removed immediately and possibly the entire thread if the OP is part of the arguments.

I really urge to stop this constant bickering and try to discuss issues like adults. We should all be able to have different opinions without resorting to personal attacks. A continuation of this behaviour may lead to temporary or even permanent bans being issued for all parties involved.


                                                                

Peter
Forum Administrator

www.reallusion.com