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By Gentlegiant783 - 8 Years Ago
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I was rather disappointed to discover that there is less flexibility in IC6, for animating the face,
IC5
IC6 dosent seem to have the detail option
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By pmaina - 8 Years Ago
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RL says they are working on it. No due dates yet.
Personally I have hibernated (put a hold on any spending) till there is some clarity on where RL is heading.
That said, I remain optimistic and have doubled my iClone budget for 2016 - just in case something groundbreaking comes out. Whether I get to spend the money or not doesn't matter to me.
Life has to continue and there is not much wisdom in putting all eggs in one basket - certainly not for 5+ years - so I have tasked my team to get more productive in blender as we explore emerging options.
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By wendyluvscatz - 8 Years Ago
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Interesting, each time I read this thread its new?
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By Rampa - 8 Years Ago
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There are some things you can do that help. Have a look at this video from "3D Test", and then download the linked ini files in the comments. The current facial stuff can do a lot more than it is set up to do by default. This should tide us over until something new is released.
Hint: You don't need to remove the existing profiles, you can just add these ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1XFeR5RRO0
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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I appreciate you posting this in hopes RL see's there's enough demand for a facial animation overhaul that they see it through. Hopefully according to RL, this is will soon be addressed. It does seem it's gone backwards with the latest release V6... However I trust RL is working on a major update for facial animation. Please see the comments on the Youtube video posted below.
https://youtu.be/iUadk-x8FpM
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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There is a lot of flexibility in setting up things for CC characters in 3DXchange as the morphs are exposed in the Expression Editor. So instead of moving vertices, you create morph settings, which can give better results. We have had discussions and contributions about that, including what Rampa refers to. Using Motion Plus you can create "facial poses". So it's not a step back, just different, especially with an improved interface which is hopefully in the works.
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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animagic (7/20/2016)
There is a lot of flexibility in setting up things for CC characters in 3DXchange as the morphs are exposed in the Expression Editor. So instead of moving vertices, you create morph settings, which can give better results. We have had discussions and contributions about that, including what Rampa refers to. Using Motion Plus you can create "facial poses". So it's not a step back, just different, especially with an improved interface which is hopefully in the works.
I agree. One of the big faults with iclone for me was ( I say was for a reason ) I needed to open a characters eyes in the middle of an animation sequence and the face editor won't allow the opening of the eyes, you can only further close them. This makes no sense when it comes to editing. But I found a work around by going into 3DXchange and created a new morph in the expression editor which I then imported on top of my character. I then went to that place in the time line and using the face puppet blended that new expression with the open eyes onto what was already there. And got a much better and more realistic result in my opinion than if I had just opened the eyes with the editor.
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By wendyluvscatz - 8 Years Ago
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Yes I agree Sw00000p
I was hoping with the expressions and visemes on timeline the keyframes for such things would be exposed for editing.
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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sw00000p (7/21/2016)
wendyluvscatz (7/21/2016)
Yes I agree Sw00000p
I was hoping with the expressions and visemes on timeline the keyframes for such things would be exposed for editing.Ms. Wendy, Smoothly editing expressions and visemes....With the current animation method.... "It's not as easy as it sounds." • RL needs to overhaul there current method to a modern approach. • Yielding the desired results (without tedious tweaking). One Way is to: • Simply convert the Facial Panel to an "Jason Osipa" style of rig.  • THEN... phonemes and visemes WILL blend PERFECTLY! 
I've had no problem smoothly editing expressions and visemes with iclone. It's a godsend. You want difficult, try animating with Daz.
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By Gentlegiant783 - 8 Years Ago
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LOL, I waited a nearly a year and a half after buying iClone 6, just to be able to use it
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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There are people who actually use iClone 6, so they may be a helpful source of information. Just ask. iClone 5 is different from iClone 6 as facial animation was primarily vertex-based.
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By will2power71 - 8 Years Ago
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I find it to be absolutely horrid to work with, so I don't. Like sw00000p has pointed out many times, I find that doing what you're after in other more robust applications is the only alternative available at the moment. Reallusion's hinted at improvements in facial animation --I really hope that doesn't mean more Crazytalk stuff. Of course, if they were to allow you to set up a control points instead of the imprecise puppet control moves, that would make me really happy, but you can't have it all --or can you?
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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sw00000p (7/21/2016)
michael7 (7/21/2016)
....I've had no problem smoothly editing expressions and visemes with iclone. It's a godsend. You want difficult, try animating with Daz.Yes, iClone (Smoothly) blends ALL facial animation. ..."What was I thinking?"
I don't know, what were you thinking? I'd love to see an example of some of your work with iclone 6 and maybe you could then point out what you had hoped to achieve with it and where iclone failed you? This would be really helpful in clarifying your point.
I work very hard at what I do,I tend to be a perfectionist and from my own personal experience thus far iclone hasn't failed me. I'm not saying it's perfect but it's pretty dam good, and I've been able to get a full range of expressions on my characters, at the right moment I needed it, with smooth transitions from one expression and character movement to the next.
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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will2power71 (7/21/2016)
I find it to be absolutely horrid to work with, so I don't. Like sw00000p has pointed out many times, I find that doing what you're after in other more robust applications is the only alternative available at the moment. Reallusion's hinted at improvements in facial animation --I really hope that doesn't mean more Crazytalk stuff. Of course, if they were to allow you to set up a control points instead of the imprecise puppet control moves, that would make me really happy, but you can't have it all --or can you?
Will I'm not here to defend iclone, but I've worked with shit, and I've made it work. From that experience I can tell you iclone is not shit. What do you find so horrid about it, is the main issue the lack of control points as you say and having to rely on puppet movement? I think I know why iclone proceeded the way they did with this. In trying to make a program that anyone can get a good start in and a seasoned animator can learn to excel in iclone decided the best approach was to push the development of puppetry. BECAUSE, the main problem area in animating a character in a sequence with control points or sliders is, as good as your imagination and innate sense of timing might be, or how good you think it might be, you never really know how the sequence is going to look until you render it and play it back. And often it's far from perfect and you have to go back and tweak and retweak anyway, and then render again each change to check it out. With the puppetry iclone has, and it's ability to blend one expression onto another and to create seemless transitions, it's created a very powerful tool. and you can be VERY precise with it. It's just a simple matter of defining the area you want the new effect to take place in on the timeline, selecting the expression you want the character to have, and if it's not there in the expression editor you make one in 3DXchange and bring it in ( and that's pretty simple ), switching the playback from real time to frame so the whole process slows down, do a couple of preview runs so you know where on the screen to start your mouse movement at and generally where to stop, then record. And if the clip isn't quite the right speed or it's too long etc. you have the ability to edit that as well by speeding it up, or cutting parts out. It might just come down to how different people prefer to work. For myself I'm pretty happy with the program. If you want to continue the conversation though I'm more than happy to hear of what you think of other programs and where you think they are better if you have some specific examples.
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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BTW Sw000p;
" ~ Adjusting Vertex Animation with sliders. ~ (GREAT IDEA) "Progressive Morphing" 
...BUT....Reallusion omitted the "Morph Mixing Panel" "
No they didn't. It's just not all in iclone. 3DXchange let you bring in any morph sliders on a character you want, fiddle with them in there if you want to as well, and then import them into the expression editor in iclone.
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By michael7 - 8 Years Ago
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you tediously tweak iClone's animation to (Achieve Smooth Results).
I've never had to tediously tweak iclone's animation to get smooth results. I don't know what else to tell you. It's very possible that 3ds Max is faster for you. I'd still like to see an example of an animation if your willing.
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By will2power71 - 8 Years Ago
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michael7 (7/21/2016)
Will I'm not here to defend iclone, but I've worked with shit, and I've made it work. From that experience I can tell you iclone is not shit. What do you find so horrid about it, is the main issue the lack of control points as you say and having to rely on puppet movement? I think I know why iclone proceeded the way they did with this. In trying to make a program that anyone can get a good start in and a seasoned animator can learn to excel in iclone decided the best approach was to push the development of puppetry. BECAUSE, the main problem area in animating a character in a sequence with control points or sliders is, as good as your imagination and innate sense of timing might be, or how good you think it might be, you never really know how the sequence is going to look until you render it and play it back. And often it's far from perfect and you have to go back and tweak and retweak anyway, and then render again each change to check it out. With the puppetry iclone has, and it's ability to blend one expression onto another and to create seemless transitions, it's created a very powerful tool. and you can be VERY precise with it. It's just a simple matter of defining the area you want the new effect to take place in on the timeline, selecting the expression you want the character to have, and if it's not there in the expression editor you make one in 3DXchange and bring it in ( and that's pretty simple ), switching the playback from real time to frame so the whole process slows down, do a couple of preview runs so you know where on the screen to start your mouse movement at and generally where to stop, then record. And if the clip isn't quite the right speed or it's too long etc. you have the ability to edit that as well by speeding it up, or cutting parts out. It might just come down to how different people prefer to work. For myself I'm pretty happy with the program. If you want to continue the conversation though I'm more than happy to hear of what you think of other programs and where you think they are better if you have some specific examples.
Michael,
What I don't like about puppeteering is that the control may be smooth, but it is imprecise in that you cannot achieve as consistent a result as facial animation tools based on control points, or a tool that allows you to more precisely control what is going on. Lipsyncing is pretty good, but a control point can have it's own timeline position, as well as offering speed in the way that the only thing you have to do is grab the gizmo and move it. I advocate letting go of the puppet control system because it is not precise and there are other methods that are, and are just as easy to use.
The thing is, it's even easier to set up in iClone because the CC characters have identical rigging setups. One well developed control rig will blow away anything you can do in the puppet control setup because it's precise. The animator is able to achieve exactly what he or she wants without a lot of trial and error. The same thing can be said for those of us working with DAZ Genesis 3 Models with their new face rigging system --having a control rig maximizes your ability to make subtle changes in the performance without overwriting what you've already done. With the puppet controller, many of us find ourselves doing and redoing things because the puppet controller is okay for major movements but not so great for fine control. I don't want to guess at what the model will do when I pull up or down on the mouse --I want to know exactly what's going to happen. I have yet to see a puppet control performance that can equal what you can do with an honest to goodness control rig.
I'm not saying get rid of the puppet controls. I realize enough people use them and are comfortable with them. But I am an advocate of a proper control rig for Character Creator Models and imported Characters with the user having the ability to control a bone or a morph in a way that can be precisely controlled.
Those are just two examples of different methodologies that I find to be more attractive as an animator than trying to use the face puppet controls . You just have to do to much clicking in to get to the heart of your character's performance. I'm eager to see the improvements they've hinted at, but as it stands now I am not remotely interested in using the face puppet tool for any sort of character animation. I even posted suggestions to that effect here in the feedback tracker.
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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Cheers for michael7, keep up the good work. sw00000p doesn't have a very high opinion of iClone users, even if they actually accomplish something.
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By pmaina - 8 Years Ago
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michael7 (7/21/2016).I've had no problem smoothly editing expressions and visemes with iclone. It's a godsend.
...
I'm not saying it's perfect but it's pretty dam good, and I've been able to get a full range of expressions on my characters, at the right moment I needed it, with smooth transitions from one expression and character movement to the next.
Same here. I have done some awesome stuff with iClone. My dream is for iClone to be so good it's the only 3D tool I need. I know it's possible so I keep pushing for user driven enhancements.
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By Peter (RL) - 8 Years Ago
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As I'm sure many of you will notice, several posts from this thread have been deleted because once again discussion turned into arguments and infighting.
While passionate discussion is fine, we will no longer tolerate the constant arguments that seem to descend on almost every thread lately. Please let me be clear, any arguing or infighting between forum members will see the posts removed immediately and possibly the entire thread if the OP is part of the arguments.
I really urge to stop this constant bickering and try to discuss issues like adults. We should all be able to have different opinions without resorting to personal attacks. A continuation of this behaviour may lead to temporary or even permanent bans being issued for all parties involved.
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By will2power71 - 8 Years Ago
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sw00000p (7/22/2016)To follow Sir_Peter_RL's advice and calmly elaborate ones opinion..... Yes, IC and 3dxch has tools to achieve the exact look you desire.... But... Speed Up Production via... A "Morph Mixing" panel. No more bouncing back and forth... "Progressive Blend" your desired morph in one shot! To massive speed up production..... I don't see anything wrong with asking for a Progressive Morph mixing panel. 
It would give you Fine-Tune control points to blend phonemes and visemes.  
You've definitely got my vote on that one! Anything that gives you a more precise set of controls to work with is of great interest to me. So when they say that morph sliders are coming in iClone 7, it makes me wonder if they're going to be available to you in the face puppet room. If they are, then I'll be ecstatic.
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By pmaina - 8 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (7/22/2016)
As I'm sure many of you will notice, several posts from this thread have been deleted because once again discussion turned into arguments and infighting.
While passionate discussion is fine, we will no longer tolerate the constant arguments that seem to descend on almost every thread lately. Please let me be clear, any arguing or infighting between forum members will see the posts removed immediately and possibly the entire thread if the OP is part of the arguments.
I really urge to stop this constant bickering and try to discuss issues like adults. We should all be able to have different opinions without resorting to personal attacks. A continuation of this behaviour may lead to temporary or even permanent bans being issued for all parties involved.
Thank you Peter for stepping in and drawing a clear line. Everyone should feel safe voicing their opinion within the bounds of forum rules. Indeed those who disagree with points raised in discussions should focus on merits/demerits of the argument instead of attacking or baiting the person. My track record here speaks for itself. I believe I got baited. For some reason I didn't see it coming sooner but I am wiser now. Lesson learned.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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I'm with sw00000p and will2power71 on a morph slider system being built into IC. As with most things there are workarounds, however requesting an update to simplify and enhance the process is no-brainer.
I'm not against puppet tools, in fact long ago I posted a detailed request for a keyboard shortcut to set keys while using Face Puppet. It would be a great update I can't imagine being that difficult to implement and would be a nice .update to hold us over till the facial animation overhaul.
The puppet tool is simple yet powerful tool I'm surprised isn't implemented in more pro tools - Their great for simple fast, pre-viz and other animation styles. That aside, every animation course I've taken always uses and expressly states keyframes, curve editors and timing are the most important tools in an animators arsenal. With facial animation timing is crucial, when combined with the perfect, unique expression it can be magical.
Will morph sliders and a curve editor make every IC user a great animator...? If only it were that easy  I do however believe, with years of forum posts to back it up that these additions would be one of the best investments RL could add to IC.
---------------------------------------------
IC Facial Animation Game Changer
Implement an RL style easy to use curve editor
An obj morph slider system similar to CC's for custom expressions / exaggerations
IC puppet tools with added keyboard shortcut for setting keys while using the puppet tool.
Re-implement the detail tab for pushing, pulling, rolling and expanding numerous facial points around brows, lips, lids, cheeks...
Easy facial animation export
If implemented well this would make RL's facial animation system an incredible asset for animators from beginner to Pro.
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By CaseClosed - 8 Years Ago
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I’ve been on the sidelines for 9 months. I bought the perception neuron mocap system, but I’m not using it... not until iClone incorporates facial mocap to the level of quality and ease-of-use of Faceware software. With Faceware, you can use your iPhone to record a face and then immediate use it to animate you character with incredible results.
The moment we can bring in facial mocap into our iClone project, Reallusion’s software will explode in popularity. I loved everything I experienced and my ability to create detailed, beautiful scenes in iClone and Character Creator.
Reallusion needs to allow us to bring in facial animation or give us a facial mocap user interface, and then we can watch the iClone-craze spread around the world.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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sw00000p, not implying you or anyone else is a puppet hater That was directed at impressions I may have made on my facial animation crusade.
I also subscribe to Jason Osipa's methodologies for facial animation. IMHO it's the best method on the facial animation and lipsync out there.
A look at his demo will make you a believer - So realistic it's creepy!
His approach is simple, straight forward, logical, efficient... Sadly there's a couple things keeping IC from being able to use his approach as intended. Everyone's got a wishlist but every animator would benefit from a great face rig.
MOCAP is great, I've dabbled enough to know simply talking to a camera won't produce, amazing render ready performances - quick and easy. Acting is an Art - If it was easy We'd all be Movie Stars!
Even with the best software / hardware running through a very fast PC with the latest and greatest gfx card. - You'll only get what you put in and I'm not just talking about money. If you're a high energy expressive person who loves to perform this is the way to go. - I'm not
I've found it easier to go to frame 1735 and make a frustrated facial expression if it synced with audio. If I decide it's not a frustrated emotion I want, it's an angry one at frame 1742 - I tweak the facial rig and timeline - DONE!
MOCAP = rehearse, record, review, redo, edit... mocap is cool, just don't think it's as easy as talking to a camera and creating art.
I'm grateful, thankful and fascinated by the magic of making these amazing characters and bringing them to life though animation!
Thanks for the opportunities RL!
I sincerely hope I've never intentionally offended anyone on a personal level ( artistically I can only apologize )
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By will2power71 - 8 Years Ago
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The key thing that I was trying to point out that goes along with what Gentlegiant783 pointed out was that we seemed to take a step back from 5 to 6. Most of us seem to want the same thing --greater control over what comes out of the face. I think the only thing we may vary on is how best to accomplish this. The reason I am in favor of a system similar to Poser 11's new control point system is that control points can be tied to anything --a bone or a set of bones or a morph. Those people who have morphs can link them to a control point, whereas someone who's using a bone based model, can link bones or a set of bones to a control point. I like the idea of using something that can be used as you please and not tying people down to a set way of thinking. People may want to stick with the puppet controls, but then there are others like myself who want to work with something more suited to the way we choose to animate personally.
Personally, I would rather spend time to set up a control scheme that's a bit more detailed, and be able to apply it to any model I create. That's because the figures that I work with now are DAZ Genesis 3 figures with the built in face bones. For me, that means that I could set up the control points one time and be able to apply them to ANY DAZ Genesis 3 characters that I want to work with much like we do with HumanIK Now. I favor a control point type system because once it's set up, you have to do very little menu hopping in order to do this or that. The thing with the puppet system that is a choke point for me is that If I want to do one thing I have to click to select them, then click into menus a lot to control one thing and then switch to another. When you have a control point, you eliminate a lot of clicking -which is what I'm after. I could say the same thing for the Character Creator Characters as well--as different as they look, they're all rigged the same for the most part.
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By Snarp Farkle - 8 Years Ago
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will2power71 (7/23/2016)
The key thing that I was trying to point out that goes along with what Gentlegiant783 pointed out was that we seemed to take a step back from 5 to 6. Most of us seem to want the same thing --greater control over what comes out of the face. I think the only thing we may vary on is how best to accomplish this. The reason I am in favor of a system similar to Poser 11's new control point system is that control points can be tied to anything --a bone or a set of bones or a morph. Those people who have morphs can link them to a control point, whereas someone who's using a bone based model, can link bones or a set of bones to a control point. I like the idea of using something that can be used as you please and not tying people down to a set way of thinking. People may want to stick with the puppet controls, but then there are others like myself who want to work with something more suited to the way we choose to animate personally.
Personally, I would rather spend time to set up a control scheme that's a bit more detailed, and be able to apply it to any model I create. That's because the figures that I work with now are DAZ Genesis 3 figures with the built in face bones. For me, that means that I could set up the control points one time and be able to apply them to ANY DAZ Genesis 3 characters that I want to work with much like we do with HumanIK Now. I favor a control point type system because once it's set up, you have to do very little menu hopping in order to do this or that. The thing with the puppet system that is a choke point for me is that If I want to do one thing I have to click to select them, then click into menus a lot to control one thing and then switch to another. When you have a control point, you eliminate a lot of clicking -which is what I'm after. I could say the same thing for the Character Creator Characters as well--as different as they look, they're all rigged the same for the most part.
I completely agree will2power71,
A control point system would be wonderful! Just to be able to work with the face bones that are already there would be a big plus in my book. CC characters have a lot of potential and I'd like full control of every bone especially the upper and lower lips so that I can show realistic mustache and beard animations to go along with the visemes, I've seen others are making successful strides with beards but no evidence that a mustache can be attached to the upper jaw or upper lip and move with them.
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