|
Author
|
Message
|
|
illusionLAB
|
illusionLAB
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 4 Years Ago
Posts: 393,
Visits: 4.8K
|
TGA max bit depth is 8. I presume it's presence in iClone is for an "uncompressed" still format with PNG being the "compressed" format.
I just did a couple of tests that confirm that iClone's PBR renders are indeed 'frame grabs' of the display output. Remember the discovery of making the 'window' smaller and larger for different quality of DOF? Well the same holds true for the other "post process" effects... the HDR glows etc. Changing the size of the viewport is effectively telling the GPU to 'change gears' on the "post process" effects, so if a render is different depending on the size of the viewport - it goes without saying that the render is basically a screen grab of the GPUs output. Although, theoretically, nvidia GPUs have 10 bit architecture... it's only really available in their Quadro cards - got to have some reason for charging twice as much! (also, the software driving the Quadro card has to be written to support 10 bit - Photoshop and DaVinci Resolve are two that do).
So, there you are... iClone's 'realtime PBR' render is limited to 8 bit. iRay, or other 3rd party renderers will be, in theory, the only way to create 16 and 32 bit depth renders with iClone.
|
|
|
|
|
yoyomaster
|
yoyomaster
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 Years Ago
Posts: 272,
Visits: 1.3K
|
I dont think TGA supports 16 bits, at least it doesn't in Photoshop!
|
|
|
|
|
TonyDPrime
|
TonyDPrime
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K,
Visits: 12.4K
|
And what is the deal with the TGA file format, still gives banding. Is that higher bit depth, or is it just an 8-bit 'image' packaged in a higher bit depth format?
(which we do not want, as I understand now we want the rendered image's origin to be at least 16-bit, as far as this discussion goes.)
|
|
|
|
|
TonyDPrime
|
TonyDPrime
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K,
Visits: 12.4K
|
Okay, 16-bit it is!!! :smooooth:
|
|
|
|
|
yoyomaster
|
yoyomaster
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 Years Ago
Posts: 272,
Visits: 1.3K
|
Heheh, 32 bits is a bit much, these are only used in stuff like vector displacement maps and the such, and they are huge files, I mean huge, I have 32 bits OpenEXR here that are over 800 mb each!
|
|
|
|
|
TonyDPrime
|
TonyDPrime
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K,
Visits: 12.4K
|
In Octane Render, when you render with Bloom Post Processing effect, the render completes, and then you can save the image in a format. But the image saving part isn't really what slows down the rendering part, as far as the GPU is concerned. As in, Octane's render engine isn't held up by completed image output time. It processes rendering of textures and lighting, then saves the 16bit PNG image, even a UHD one, quite instantly.
So in iClone, actually, if we did have 16 Bit, we may not have a noticeably slower rendering time after all...I'm not saying it would be, in mathematical absolute terms, as fast as an 8-bit render, but it may be an inconsequential speed difference.
Okay, so wait, would Netflix accept a 16 bit, or they need 32 bit.
We have to tell RL to give us whatever Netflix requires, or has someone done this?
|
|
|
|
|
yoyomaster
|
yoyomaster
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 Years Ago
Posts: 272,
Visits: 1.3K
|
Banding has nothing to do with scaling up then down, it had to do with color depth, an 8 bits images(16 million colors) just doesn't have enough colors depth to totally prevent banding, while 16 bits images(68 billion colors) do!
|
|
|
|
|
TonyDPrime
|
TonyDPrime
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K,
Visits: 12.4K
|
illusionLAB (6/13/2018)
"let's go with the idea that you need 16 bit to eliminate banding"
It's not an idea it's a fact. There are, however, ways to minimize 'banding'... like adding noise or dithering - usually "a process" when creating the rendered file.
The effects that produce the most banding in iClone are essentially 'real time' post effects, so I suspect they are calculated as 8 bit to maintain 'real time' performance (they could actually be hardware provided from the graphics card... so there's nothing RL could do to change it). If they were calculated at 16 bit during final render it would pretty much solve the issue (at the expense of render time). The upcoming addition of iRay rendering will improve things, as it's 32 bit it should substitute iC glows, lighting etc. with it's own (converted, like indigo did). I amended my guess at iClone's architecture to 32 bit as it does handle HDR - but, just because the environment is 32 bit does not mean all the calculations are made at 32 bit... this is probably true of all the game engines, as they wouldn't possibly be able to offer real time. It's common practice to dynamically assign bit depths 'where they're needed' - you can get away with 8 bit for most things... like texture maps.
Also, it's absolutely possible to see 'banding' on 16 or 32 bit images... like I said before 'most' computer displays are 8 bit (the higher quality the better the 'interpolation'). My setup is optimized for colour grading, so I've splurged for a 10 bit (30bitRGB) monitor... driven by a 10 bit Quadro card. All 'gaming' cards, like 1080s, are 8 bit. My theory is iClone actually uses the images generated by the graphics card for renders... which would ultimately mean the PBR renderer in iClone will never produce a 16 bit image. Again, this is why iRay (or other 3rd party 'non real time' renderer) will be the only option for 16 or 32 bit depth images.Interesting. How come a 3xSS render from iClone taking 6 seconds to render at UHD not eliminate the banding. It's just an up and down-scaled 8-bit image?... Remembering those introductory iClone 7 tutorials, Stuckon3D had never discussed THIS stuff with Kai in the tutorials when they spoke about the realtime PBR workflow. You never heard them say, "Oh, by the way, for those of you looking for 16-bit output with no banding from the bloom, this is not going to give you that performance yet..." So, either they didn't know, despite all the background in lighting and 3D, etc, in which case us users are more observant and interested in the subject of image output. Or, they just figured, "Why bother explaining it, let's not explain in detail and hope nobody cares or notices."
|
|
|
|
|
TonyDPrime
|
TonyDPrime
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 3.4K,
Visits: 12.4K
|
yoyomaster (6/13/2018)
Another Eevee render test. Model by Jakub Chechelski, you can find it on Gumroad at https://gumroad.com/l/JiRtZ, I gave 5 bucks for it, as it is a great model and a great asset to learn character texturing in Substance Painter. The Node Wrangler add-on with the CTRL/SHIFT/T combo key, makes it a snap to setup Substance Painter textures in Cycles or Eevee, took me a whole 5 minutes to set this up, including the SSS setup. This was rendered in Blender Eevee in 19 minutes (600 frames) with 25 4K maps, on a GTX 960 with only 2GB of ram, which is impressive!
How many maps does this thing have...5 minutes, but for how many textures did you have to do? Just curious what kind of workflow you are really going to have to deal with here when it comes to a full scene, or avatar, coming from iClone . Looks cool!
|
|
|
|
|
yoyomaster
|
yoyomaster
Posted 8 Years Ago
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 Years Ago
Posts: 272,
Visits: 1.3K
|
Another Eevee render test. Model by Jakub Chechelski, you can find it on Gumroad at https://gumroad.com/l/JiRtZ, I gave 5 bucks for it, as it is a great model and a great asset to learn character texturing in Substance Painter. The Node Wrangler add-on with the CTRL/SHIFT/T combo key, makes it a snap to setup Substance Painter textures in Cycles or Eevee, took me a whole 5 minutes to set this up, including the SSS setup. This was rendered in Blender Eevee in 19 minutes (600 frames) with 25 4K maps, on a GTX 960 with only 2GB of ram, which is impressive!
|
|
|
|