The Bronze Baroness attains a key goal ...but what does it all mean?

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Skeletons..skeletons everywhere in Episode 4...not original but fun ...

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Shadoesword (3/4/2018)

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../.. I think most professional animation is done with the voices first. I record my sessions with the actors according to their schedules. That might be the first thing that happens in the workflow, or it might happen at any point before step 5. But I never start messing with animating the character until I have the actual recorded dialogue in place and generally paced like I want it. 
I have some terrific actors doing voices for me, and how they deliver the lines is going to have a major impact on how the character moves. Their performance drives the flow of the scene if it is one with dialogue. 
I do set up my camera shots before the lip synch, though. It's tedious and time-consuming to fix the visemes, and if the camera is going to be focused elsewhere during a line, then I don't want to have to do the lip synch for nothng.

In "real world" animated movies, it is often a 3 steps process:
1) A first version of the dialog is roughly recorded, by the director himself sometimes, or some assistant(s). This will be used for pre-production (animatics).
2) Before going to the animation step in production, a second version of the dialog is recorded but this time with the chosen voice talents. This is still considered as a rough version.
3) Once the movie is in post-production, with the final images and editing, often a third version is recorded, still with the chosen voice talents but this time as if they were dubbing the movie.

This third version is often done because it allows voice talents to better feel and concentrate on their characters with the final animations and context (music, sfx, vfx, other characters, ..).


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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

I believe we are on the same page here.  In my workflow, I listed "rough animation" ahead of "voice-overs," the there are two key aspects to that sequence.
1) I do mean "rough" animation, even by my standards.  And at that point I am still using dialogue, but it's typically my own voice recorded directly inside iClone.  As you said, it give a sense of the pacing, even if I need to refine it later.  At this point I don't care at all about the quality of the audio, since I know it will be replaced anyway.
2) It is also driven by access to my voice talent, so I might want to get started on some things while I wait for the recording session to occur.

Good point about not fine-tuning the visemes when that work is of no value.  If a character's back is to the camera,, even bad visemes are likely to be fine.  And if you do a close-up of a prop while the character is speaking, they are totally irrelevant.

For me, that falls into the "progressive and iterative improvement" approach.  I'll put just enough effort in something to be comfortable in what needs to come next, be it changing the pace (more/less space between actions or lines of dialogue), improving camera angles, or as in this case, refining the visemes where they are visually disruptive.

I'm really enjoying these conversations.  Thanks to all for your perspectives and thoughts.

@Peter (RL) - Any comments on our request for a "Filmmaking" section of the forum?

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Thanks, Alex. I'm glad if that is helpful to you. I think most professional animation is done with the voices first. I record my sessions with the actors according to their schedules. That might be the first thing that happens in the workflow, or it might happen at any point before step 5. But I never start messing with animating the character until I have the actual recorded dialogue in place and generally paced like I want it. 

I have some terrific actors doing voices for me, and how they deliver the lines is going to have a major impact on how the character moves. Their performance drives the flow of the scene if it is one with dialogue. 

I do set up my camera shots before the lip synch, though. It's tedious and time-consuming to fix the visemes, and if the camera is going to be focused elsewhere during a line, then I don't want to have to do the lip synch for nothng.

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@Alex - There was a little quote/edit issue in your post that got my name tangles up with your quoting of Shadoesword's steps.  (No worries, it happens.)  I simply wanted to be sure proper credit was given where credit was due, so I re-quoted it here.  :)

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Thank you Sir. I have had 5 and 6 the wrong way round for .. since I first tried dialogue. I should have known better being as I did know Nick Park spent several years animating Wallace and Grommit to the pre-recorded script read by Peter Sallis.

Fine result, by the way.


Kind regards,

Alex

Another shot here from Episode 4...Trevor and Gabriela steal a moment for romance in between the pressures of battle. 

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I checked out your link, Mike...very cool. Were you ever a member of Mensa? I have an acquaintance who is, and she also has synesthesia, seeing sounds as different colors. She has tremendous sensitivity to colors, can instantly see the differences in various shades of the same color that most people don't see. I think the colors help her in math some way, too, don't ask me how. So she grasps things without them having to be explained to her, kind of like you were describing yourself. This is fascinating stuff to me. 

I am definitely no genius, I have to painfully labor to gain my knowledge. But there's stuff going on in all our brains that is hidden which is astonishing. There's a book called "Struck By Genius" about a man who was badly beaten, and his brain developed a savant mathematical ability ... he was able to access in some way the hidden calculations our brain is always doing to allow us to pick up a coffee cup, or catch a ball in the air, etc. I think they called it "zombie math". 

Okay, pretty far off the topic of Iclone, but, who knows, maybe I'll make an Iclone movie about a genius someday, right? 

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100% agree here, completing a project is certainly the most difficult task any iCloner is confronted to.


--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.