30min animation that's one hell of a workload . Well done  you must have put  a great deal of effort in to this

Royyru, thanks. Yeah, a lot of work. But it's a fascinating learning experience and fun to do. 

 But you made me curious about something. What is your philosophy for deciding when you are done with a scene? (This is a general question for anyone).

My goal is focused on telling the story, having it progress, not necessarily on doing the absolute best animation. So, if I'm struggling with a scene, and I can't iron out all the animation issues, I wind up just doing the best I can and move on. I can be something of a perfectionist about certain aspects, but if it's beyond me, then I just go on. 

Months later, as my skills increase, I might look back and see how I could have solved the particular issues in a better way. But by then I'm onto some other scene, keeping that story progressing. 

So how do you approach an animation project? I'm sure it differs as to the type of project, but when do you decide a scene is finished? For me there are always things that can be tweaked, but I don't let myself linger too long. 

I 

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In the professional world, deadlines and money are taking care of that question ;) You can't have indefinite retakes or else the movie would never be released.

But you, as an hobbyist or independent, have no real limits, you are the sole judge of what is good or good enough. I don't know in English but in French we have a saying: "The best is the enemy of good"
And in fact, that's the job of a Director to know where to stop or not. You have to "see" where you want to go. You must have a "vision" of your movie.Easier said than done though.

I have a question for you: Did you created all your shot directly ?

Because there are a few things that can help you answering your question, things that are used in professional film-making. For instance, instead of doing your shots directly you can first do animatics or previz. That is a rough version of your movie without final rendering nor animation, just camera blocking but with some sound and music, and dialog, even if those are not from the final voice talents. Like an animated storyboard. This helps having a anticipated perception of the rhythm of the movie through editing, detecting what will work or not in advance, having an overview of the entire movie before it is done so you will be able to "feel", hopefully, if it will work or not.

This is at this stage you can test several approaches for a scene, try different framing, camera motion, etc.. Hopefully at some point you'll have a version that seems to work, that you like. The biggest question imho is: Will  it work for the audience ? Then you can start to create your final shots and at this point don't look back. Follow your animatic. The final result will be a milestone of your Art, don't try to correct it, then once done, move on to the next project, which will be probably better anyway.

Then 10 years later you can create a new version of that previous movie and you will call it a remake ;)


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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

I totally support Guy's comments about TIME and budget.  Working on some sort of project (such as the "Pinhead" projects that crop up on this forum) are a great way to complete a project, regardless of its final quality.

And yes, the question for perfection (or even "better") can result in a project that is never finished and never shared with the rest of the world, and that's sad.




I have often said that a lot of my work is best considered "pre-viz."  :P  That's okay, since I really like telling the story, and I'm not seeking a million views on YouTube.
Many other things I do reside in the "proof-of-concept" category.  I'm fine with that, too, since I see iClone (and other s/w) as a technology toy and a place for learning stuff.

All that works well for me, since I try not to spend 40+ hours per week on iClone in addition to my full-time day-job at the expense of ignoring my wife and kids.  Oh, it does happen once in a while, but I try not to make it a constant way of life.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Yeah, your point about the remake is well-put. My thoughts exactly!

But I admit, I just don't see an advantage to  creating a rough previz for an Iclone movie. For a real-world project, I can see that previz would be vital in having a lot of the work done before all the actors and technicians are around. Saves money and their time. You just go in and you've got your choices already made and you know what will work. Iclone itself, as I understand it, is a good tool to use for previz of real-world films.

 But in Iclone, you aren't working with anyone else anyway, so I don't see why you don't just use all your assets to begin with. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like if something is not working, you're going to be better able to tell if you are using all your animation assets. 

I have a script I'm working from, and as I'm creating the shots I do try different camera angles, movements, etc. Sometimes I re-pace a piece of dialog to make it work better. I tweak the camera movements with the curve editor, re-frame shots, slow down or speed up, tweak lighting, and when it feels good, I render it. Sometimes I do some of the early animation in "quick mode", which I suppose could be thought of as a kind of "previz" in a way. 

But if I'm understanding you correctly, I would be doing all these things in the previz stage in rough form, then loading in the real assets and executing the whole thing again according to the choices I made. That seems like a lot of extra work. Or am I not getting it? 

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Consider these two scenarios...

a) If you do a previs enough to be firm in your camera angles, you can avoid creating assets that will not appear in your shots.  You don't see what is behind the camera man.  In a room, there might be no need for that bookshelf filled with books and knickknacks and paintings on the wall, etc.

b) You might also determine the complex, detailed keyframing work you planned on doing no longer fit the story.  It may have looked good on paper (script), but just doesn't flow on-screen.  So perhaps you saved yourself 20 hours of work, and thus it is easier to throw things on the cutting room floor because you are less invested in them.



Restating my comments about my own projects, I'm not very efficient with iClone, and "real life" gets in the way of my hobby, so I usually don't have time to polish things like landscape, clothing, lighting, lip sync, and so on, so my final project tends to be closer to a previs quality than that of a well-tuned masterpiece.  That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

@Shadoesword
This is an interesting discussion that should probably take place in a Filmmaking section of the forum ;)

I get what you are saying, and I see your point, indeed, when working alone it is very tempting to take shortcuts, I am experiencing that myself for my current project and I try to restrain myself to take any shortcuts like this.
That said, I'm not saying doing previz or animatics is the answer to your initial question, it was just a suggestion. If you feel comfortable with your current method and if that works for you then by all mean do not change anything, of course.

As you said, in the professional industry, doing animatics or previz is kind of mandatory in order to plan ahead the work of all the teams involved in the production of the movie. This indeed save time and money but nonetheless it also helps the director to have a better vision of his final film before being completed. Waiting for the film to be completed for a director to then "know how" he will then do it is a syndrome we are fighting against on a daily basis with some directors, and of course it is a big NO from the production, in general.

Let's summarize the 4 main advantages of doing previz/animatics for a "real-world project":
- Saving time
- Saving money
- Allow team coordination
- Allow better artistic choices by anticipating the final result

Well, when doing a iClone film you get the same advantages.
Of course, you have the luxury to go all the way through your final shot, then change a thing or two, the perhaps restart from scratch because you don't like it, add a new camera angle, perhaps change completely the animations (you prefer that background character to be drunk instead of running because he his late..), etc.. Again, if that works for you that is perfectly ok. But if you think about it, why wouldn't you benefit from the same advantages as for "real-world" projects after all, and perhaps complete your movie in 3 months instead of 5, for instance ?

You said it yourself you have been through hell creating your long sequence shot and now that it is finished, even having to do a small correction may be discouraging. Perhaps if you did a previz of it at first you would have more easily spotted what works and what's not. May be not, I don't know, I can't answer for you, again this is just a suggestion and an invitation to think about it.

If you decide to change the animation of your drunk background character into something else, perhaps at first you bought the drunk animation, and now you don't need it anymore because you prefer having a character running. So you would have wasted money.

But these are "micro-changes" - that may make you waste time and money nonetheless, despite being "micro".

Most importantly, and to me this is the most fundamental reason to do animatics/previz, is that having your all movie as a previz or animatic is the only way to detect any needed "macro-changes" before you spend all you money, time and most importantly your patience.

Things like changing the structure of the story, perhaps even changing part of the story, because after seeing the all movie as an animatic/previz you may realize that something does not work in the emotions, or the action, or the intrigue, etc.. You feel that the movie is too long or too short, that the editing does not work nor the music you planned to use, perhaps even a voice talent or even an actual character. Cutting shots once the movie is done because this is needed for the good of the movie is the most heart-breaking thing that can happen to a director. So if you have done shots that are already "final" and then at the end you decide to cut those shots, all the time spent to create those shots in their "final" state would have been wasted.

But again, that may not work for you, if you need to see the shots or movie in their "final state" in order to make those decisions and changes then so be it, that would be perfectly ok because you are the Director of your own iClone movies, you are in charge.


--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

@Shadoesword
I forgot to mention an important thing:
If you don't create a previz or an animatic, how do you decide of the length of each shot ?
(Which implies how much work you will put in each shot?)

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

Maybe it's just a matter of workflow and terminology because I can't see either of these two scenarios happening the way I work. I guess the first one is possible, in some degree. I have created my own sets, especially the London scenes where I downloaded a bunch of London buildings from Sketchup, and then placed them according to a Google map of London. (this idea stolen directly from Mark's great "London Flyover" tutorial). I went a little crazy creating my model of London, and wound up not using some sections I had built. But previz wouldn't have been of help in that instance. It was not the camera shot that wouldn't work, it was my limited skills in model building. I was visualizing using my model in a grand flyover of the city, and if I could have gotten the model like I wanted it, the camera shot would have been no problem. But my vision was just too complicated to execute with my limited skills in model building. I did use a number of sections from my model, and used a longshot that contained many of the model elements. 

The set is where I start in my workflow, deciding if it needs to be a full 360 degree set, or if I can get away with something less. If it's a big battle scene, I know I'll need the 360. If it's maybe a shot between two characters talking that's not connected to a larger scene, I may have a set that is less than 360, and confine my camera shots. Often my sets are DAZ sets that are fully 360. I might tweak the sets in some ways. For example, in some of the London scenes I had a 360 Daz street scene ... but I changed some of the street signs to be London traffic signs instead of American ones. However, I didn't make those changes until I knew a particular sign was going to be in a shot. I would plot out my camera shot for a scene, and if a sign showed up that needed to be changed, I would do it at that point. 

So, cutting to the chase, my general workflow is 
1. Choose the set
2. Assemble characters in the scene in general positions
3. Set up camera shot for the scene (this involves experimenting and playing around) 
4. Tweak any issues with the set that will be in the shot
5. Add in dialog and do lip synch and facial expressions
6. Animate the characters that are in the shot ( I may well have some animations in mind beforehand, but maybe not) 
7. Tweak the camera shot to accomodate any changes the animation may have caused
8. Do the lighting 
9, Watch the scene play several times and tweak anything that seems to be an issue 
10. Render

Sorry for the long post...

Anyway, I do understand your points about the time it takes to create a scene in Iclone, and the need to live a life. I am semi-retired, or I would never have the time to mess with this hobby. Even so, it's often times hard to get the time I'd like. ;)

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I am not sure I totally understand your question. I decide the length of each shot based on the dramatics, the mood, the pace of that particular moment...what is needed to tell the story and make things clear or enhance the emotional impact. I mean, that's the ideal, I don't claim to achieve it. It's definitely a subjective process, but that's where the fun and the art comes in.

That said, when I am rendering a shot, I generally render a little more than I expect to need just in case I feel I need to stretch it out a bit when I'm doing the editing. 

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