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Faceware - Mocap - are they viable for indie Iclone developers

Posted By rampart 2 Years Ago
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Faceware - Mocap - are they viable for indie Iclone developers

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rampart
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Posted 2 Years Ago
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I bought the Iclone 6, pipeline, mocap PI...etc.
The mocap was limited, but workable enough
I bought the Iclone 7 pro with 3dxhange 7 Pro as well

I am persuaded that Iclone may indeed become a very viable professional tool, for professionals.
As an indie video producer type user I enjoy the visme, lipsync, motion tools that have made IClone the winner of today

I don't want to see IClone go the professional route and ignore what made Iclone popular.
My interest is not to make the most perfect motions, lipsyncs,etc for my videos.
If the story sucks the video will suck. Good sound is more important than video, people will not stay and view a video if the sound is bad.

Face perfections and imperfections... we have put up with the crazy talk for several years and with good audio we always get the message across.
I think Crazy talk could be a better tool, but how much has to be done to accomplish this at reasonable cost to users?
2D animation is still very workable as well, and it is nowhere near as realistic of convincing as Iclone 3d.

I will never purchase high dollar mocap or facial  tools.
If IClone is going this way and not planning to continue to improve Iclone I don't think it will go well.
Sure everyone wants the newest greatest tricked out tools, but are they affordable and most important can they be used without additional complex education, expensive setups and preparations.
Doing an "Avatar" movie is just not feasible for indie production, which most of us know that have a few years experience. 
It would be easier to just use human actors and already available sets. 
Producing an indie video with many enjoyable scene changes to be as attractive to viewers as with a professional production is just not possible for one or a few people to accomplish.
A human person has to spend a lot of  work preparing those scenes, props, atmospheres, terrains.
Doing some low level or first shooter games may be possible to a degree...but just because you have high quality characters and some scenes won't make it happen.

If Iclone continues to move towards the professional tools they will leave people like me behind.  I am not against more professional tools, but don't now or will ever need them.

Steven Spielberg spelled it out in so many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.





Edited
2 Years Ago by rampart
dr.zap
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That's an interesting point of view.  I don't think you expressed accurately how you really feel.  Profesional products like mocap and other advances in technologies have greatly changed what we consider to be "indie" productions.  Back when I was young, 8mm film was considered to be state of the art for a hobbyist filmmaker.   If most of them shared your opinion, they would have missed the great opportunities that new technologies have brought us.  For example, a simple iPhone can take better video than we ever dreamed of with our 8mm cameras (even the 16mm professional ones).  The sound we can capture with cheap portable sound equipment eclipses much of the professional unwieldy pro equipment of yesteryear.  Technological progress has defined what a small indie can do and it will continue to do so.  If you wish to stay in the past, that is your choice and you have everything you need now that should keep you into perpetuity.  But it is risky to try and define "what is possible" for a hobbyist because those definitions are constantly being rewritten.   As far as I can see, there are no limits, so I welcome the technology as long as it can help me to develop my vision.
but0fc0ursee
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rampart (9/19/2017)
If Iclone continues to move towards the professional tools they will leave people like me behind.  I am not against more professional tools, but don't now or will ever need them.

Do you really expect Reallusion to provide you with "Pro Grade" tools, i.e. Faceware & Xsens... at an "Indie" Price?"
....never in a million years.

iClone 3 cost less than 100 bucks.
iClone 7 + 3dxchange 7 + Pipline + Character Creator + Substance Packs =  $1000 to  $1500 bucks or more.
...Now add "Faceware'.... Poof = Big Bucks.

Pro Tools are what separates Indie from Pro.

Steven Spielberg spelled it out in so many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.

You're fooling yourself if you think that means "the Story" is the most import aspect to create a "Great  Movie."
~ Story, Sound, Animation,... Post
NONE is more important than the other.

It's a fine-tuned balance of:
~ Story
~ Animation
~ Sound / Lighting (Post)

A "Great Movie" is only as good as its weakest link.
All Balanced = Great Movie

Edited
2 Years Ago by but0fc0ursee
animagic
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I don't really see how expanding iClone's capabilities will be its detriment. You can still use iClone the old way, but for those who want to go beyond that there are now options. Lack of facial expression of characters has been a valid criticism and it's now possible to do something about that and about sub-par lip-syncing.  

As an indie filmmaker, it doesn't cost me thousands to create something. Compare that to the budget needed for a life-action movie, even if it's an indie production. 

As has been said, all elements of a film are important, and with iClone we are now reaching a point where some quality work can be produced. I for one would really like to get beyond just showing stuff on YouTube.


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Genursus
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Yeah, it always bothers me when someone says 'sound is more important than picture'. It's all important. No one will stay to watch a movie with bad picture quality either. It is a movie after all, not a radio play. That's not to say sound isn't important. Again, it's all important. Same with story. You could have a great story with great actors, but I wouldn't place those actors in a 'bland setting' or in front of a white wall. Locations/sets are important too. Imagine watching a movie with actors shot in front of a greenscreen without it being keyed out and replaced with the proper FX. I don't think anyone would stand for that no matter how great the story and actors are.

It really is a 'fine tuned' balance of all those elements. It is all those elements that, to me, makes moviemaking interesting.


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2 Years Ago by Genursus
but0fc0ursee
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rampart
...but are they affordable

As John Martin stated, "Affordable for all levels."
It's not in everyone's budget, but if one really wants it.... one can save and eventually get it. It's not out of reach.

rampart
... and most important can they be used without additional complex education, expensive setups and preparations.

Welcome To CGI ...using (Pro Tools)
This is the tip of the iceberg.... wait until the motion graph editor comes.
As with all Reallusion tools.... the basics are easy.

The advanced steps requires:
~ Knowledge of "Production Proven"... Standard Industry Methods and Techniques.

Example:
~ A rotation curve (slops upward)... to its peak, then descends to zero.
~ A position curve moves forward, until rotation is added, then it (slops upward)... to its peak, then descends to zero.

But... the curves direction is opposite for (Backwards) motion. 
(Walk cycle)
~ As on foot is moving forward... the other foot is moving backward. (Opposite Tangent)w00t
~ Very confusing... if not understood.

Edited
2 Years Ago by but0fc0ursee
SeanMac
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@ but0fc0ursee

Steven Spielberg spelled it out inso many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.


You're fooling yourself if you think that means "the Story" is themost import aspect to create a "Great  Movie."
~ Story, Sound, Animation,... Post
NONE is more important than the other.

It's a fine-tuned balance of:
~ Story
~ Animation
~ Sound / Lighting (Post)

A "Great Movie" is only as good as its weakest link.
All Balanced = Great Movie

Edited
Yesterday by but0fc0ursee

We are not in any position to assert such certainties.

If Hollywood knew what made A Great Movie there would be alot more of them.

"Not one person in the entire motion picturefield knows for acertainty what's going to work.Every time out it's a guess and, if you'relucky, an educated one.”.William Goldman, Adventures in the Screen Trade.


I'm with William Goldsmith.

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Delerna
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I'm not trying saying high level/reallistic graphics is not a good thing to have. I have iClone7 and highly appreciate its graphics. I now also have the faceware mocap software and have watched the tutorials just published and am very impressed and keen to start working with it.

However I see lots of very popular animations ....... everywhere ......... that convinces me that high level graphics are nice to have but are not necessary to make popular animations.

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/9baebeaa-d28f-4954-acf5-267d.jpg
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/67e094b5-8ef3-4504-8608-527f.jpg
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1fd3a321-af67-493c-af94-b107.jpg

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SeanMac
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Hi Delerna

I agree very much with your point. South Park is terrible for animation.

But the characters, the storylines, the voice actors carry the series.
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$699 buy price! Pity they didn't mention that last year when they were asking for our money for version 7! I might have thought twice about buying something that was then going to cost me many hundreds more dollars to get a Plug-in that I thought was actually going to just be part of iClone 7.

My own fault. Didn't read the small print. Didn't ask enough questions on here before I bought.

Such a shame! But there you go. You live, you learn!











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