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By rampart - 7 Years Ago
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I bought the Iclone 6, pipeline, mocap PI...etc.
The mocap was limited, but workable enough
I bought the Iclone 7 pro with 3dxhange 7 Pro as well
I am persuaded that Iclone may indeed become a very viable professional tool, for professionals.
As an indie video producer type user I enjoy the visme, lipsync, motion tools that have made IClone the winner of today
I don't want to see IClone go the professional route and ignore what made Iclone popular.
My interest is not to make the most perfect motions, lipsyncs,etc for my videos.
If the story sucks the video will suck. Good sound is more important than video, people will not stay and view a video if the sound is bad.
Face perfections and imperfections... we have put up with the crazy talk for several years and with good audio we always get the message across.
I think Crazy talk could be a better tool, but how much has to be done to accomplish this at reasonable cost to users?
2D animation is still very workable as well, and it is nowhere near as realistic of convincing as Iclone 3d.
I will never purchase high dollar mocap or facial tools.
If IClone is going this way and not planning to continue to improve Iclone I don't think it will go well.
Sure everyone wants the newest greatest tricked out tools, but are they affordable and most important can they be used without additional complex education, expensive setups and preparations.
Doing an "Avatar" movie is just not feasible for indie production, which most of us know that have a few years experience.
It would be easier to just use human actors and already available sets.
Producing an indie video with many enjoyable scene changes to be as attractive to viewers as with a professional production is just not possible for one or a few people to accomplish.
A human person has to spend a lot of work preparing those scenes, props, atmospheres, terrains.
Doing some low level or first shooter games may be possible to a degree...but just because you have high quality characters and some scenes won't make it happen.
If Iclone continues to move towards the professional tools they will leave people like me behind. I am not against more professional tools, but don't now or will ever need them.
Steven Spielberg spelled it out in so many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.
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By dr.zap - 7 Years Ago
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That's an interesting point of view. I don't think you expressed accurately how you really feel. Profesional products like mocap and other advances in technologies have greatly changed what we consider to be "indie" productions. Back when I was young, 8mm film was considered to be state of the art for a hobbyist filmmaker. If most of them shared your opinion, they would have missed the great opportunities that new technologies have brought us. For example, a simple iPhone can take better video than we ever dreamed of with our 8mm cameras (even the 16mm professional ones). The sound we can capture with cheap portable sound equipment eclipses much of the professional unwieldy pro equipment of yesteryear. Technological progress has defined what a small indie can do and it will continue to do so. If you wish to stay in the past, that is your choice and you have everything you need now that should keep you into perpetuity. But it is risky to try and define "what is possible" for a hobbyist because those definitions are constantly being rewritten. As far as I can see, there are no limits, so I welcome the technology as long as it can help me to develop my vision.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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rampart (9/19/2017)
If Iclone continues to move towards the professional tools they will leave people like me behind. I am not against more professional tools, but don't now or will ever need them.
Do you really expect Reallusion to provide you with "Pro Grade" tools, i.e. Faceware & Xsens... at an "Indie" Price?"
....never in a million years.
iClone 3 cost less than 100 bucks.
iClone 7 + 3dxchange 7 + Pipline + Character Creator + Substance Packs = $1000 to $1500 bucks or more.
...Now add "Faceware'.... Poof = Big Bucks.
Pro Tools are what separates Indie from Pro.
Steven Spielberg spelled it out in so many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.
You're fooling yourself if you think that means "the Story" is the most import aspect to create a "Great Movie."
~ Story, Sound, Animation,... Post
NONE is more important than the other.
It's a fine-tuned balance of:
~ Story
~ Animation
~ Sound / Lighting (Post)
A "Great Movie" is only as good as its weakest link.
All Balanced = Great Movie
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I don't really see how expanding iClone's capabilities will be its detriment. You can still use iClone the old way, but for those who want to go beyond that there are now options. Lack of facial expression of characters has been a valid criticism and it's now possible to do something about that and about sub-par lip-syncing.
As an indie filmmaker, it doesn't cost me thousands to create something. Compare that to the budget needed for a life-action movie, even if it's an indie production.
As has been said, all elements of a film are important, and with iClone we are now reaching a point where some quality work can be produced. I for one would really like to get beyond just showing stuff on YouTube.
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By Genursus - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, it always bothers me when someone says 'sound is more important than picture'. It's all important. No one will stay to watch a movie with bad picture quality either. It is a movie after all, not a radio play. That's not to say sound isn't important. Again, it's all important. Same with story. You could have a great story with great actors, but I wouldn't place those actors in a 'bland setting' or in front of a white wall. Locations/sets are important too. Imagine watching a movie with actors shot in front of a greenscreen without it being keyed out and replaced with the proper FX. I don't think anyone would stand for that no matter how great the story and actors are.
It really is a 'fine tuned' balance of all those elements. It is all those elements that, to me, makes moviemaking interesting.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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rampart
...but are they affordable
As John Martin stated, "Affordable for all levels."
It's not in everyone's budget, but if one really wants it.... one can save and eventually get it. It's not out of reach.
rampart
... and most important can they be used without additional complex education, expensive setups and preparations.
Welcome To CGI ...using (Pro Tools)
This is the tip of the iceberg.... wait until the motion graph editor comes.
As with all Reallusion tools.... the basics are easy.
The advanced steps requires:
~ Knowledge of "Production Proven"... Standard Industry Methods and Techniques.
Example:
~ A rotation curve (slops upward)... to its peak, then descends to zero.
~ A position curve moves forward, until rotation is added, then it (slops upward)... to its peak, then descends to zero.
But... the curves direction is opposite for (Backwards) motion.
(Walk cycle)
~ As on foot is moving forward... the other foot is moving backward. (Opposite Tangent)
~ Very confusing... if not understood.
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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@ but0fc0ursee Steven Spielberg spelled it out inso many words ---- great movies are made from great stories.
You're fooling yourself if you think that means "the Story" is themost import aspect to create a "Great Movie."
~ Story, Sound, Animation,... Post
NONE is more important than the other.
It's a fine-tuned balance of:
~ Story
~ Animation
~ Sound / Lighting (Post)
A "Great Movie" is only as good as its weakest link.
All Balanced = Great Movie
Edited
Yesterday by but0fc0ursee
We are not in any position to assert such certainties.
If Hollywood knew what made A Great Movie there would be alot more of them.
"Not one person in the entire motion picturefield knows for acertainty what's going to work.Every time out it's a guess and, if you'relucky, an educated one.”.― William Goldman, Adventures in the Screen Trade.”
I'm with William Goldsmith.
Home Built in Coolermaster ATX case with GigabyteGA-Z170X-GAMING 7 MoBo, i7-6700 @ 3.4 Ghz, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Graphics Card, 32GbDDR4 RAM, 4K & HD monitors, Huion H610 Pro Graphics Tablet, Kinect v2, LogitechWebcam, Win 10 64 Bit OS
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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I'm not trying saying high level/reallistic graphics is not a good thing to have. I have iClone7 and highly appreciate its graphics. I now also have the faceware mocap software and have watched the tutorials just published and am very impressed and keen to start working with it.
However I see lots of very popular animations ....... everywhere ......... that convinces me that high level graphics are nice to have but are not necessary to make popular animations.
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Delerna
I agree very much with your point. South Park is terrible for animation.
But the characters, the storylines, the voice actors carry the series.
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By LarryPlane - 7 Years Ago
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$699 buy price! Pity they didn't mention that last year when they were asking for our money for version 7! I might have thought twice about buying something that was then going to cost me many hundreds more dollars to get a Plug-in that I thought was actually going to just be part of iClone 7.
My own fault. Didn't read the small print. Didn't ask enough questions on here before I bought.
Such a shame! But there you go. You live, you learn!
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By will2power71 - 7 Years Ago
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Call me crazy, but I'm actually pleased with the price. It's expensive, yes, but not overly so. I spend about as much as I do on my daughter's clarinet stuff for the year because she's in high school band. I understand people don't have a lot of money to spend in a lot of cases, but it doesn't stop you when you want something. I see the price tag and I don't have that kind of money lying around, but I just get a jar, put a label on it for Facial Mocap and whenever I have a few free bucks, or I opt not to go to Arby's and spend 15 dollars on a sandwich, drink, fries and a coke --I put that money in the jar. I don't have the money right now, but that doesn't mean I can't save up and get it with a little willpower and ingenuity. If I really wanted to get it faster, I might even do something like get a second job to earn the money.
My point is is that purchasing is a choice. Reallusion gets to set the price, but I make the choice on whether or not to purchase something or not. I think in this case, Reallusion spent quite a lot of time and resources into developing a product that you can have for a quarter of the price that it can be had by the public.
With the price from Faceware of the Live Server, I'm very happy that I can get a version that will work in iClone for %75 off the list price. To make it even better, you don't have to go through all the setup that you have to do in Faceware --which can be substantial because you have to configure each character before you can use it. This means that they've done all the work for us, the user, and made it so you can get to animating your characters facial performances in a matter of minutes vs hours of setup per character. To me, that's worth the cost because I would rather spend my time animating and not doing setups over and over and over. Reallusion put all this time and effort into bringing us something truly easy to use, and that's worth something. I would, of course, prefer that the cost be $199 dollars or less; but I realize that all that time and effort costs them money and they expect to be paid for it. You have to judge for yourself whether or not the value is worth it, but for me --I've already got the jar labeled and I'm starting to work on saving up for my personal self Christmas Present.
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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@will2power71
Yeah- I agree. But I would like to note that Faceware had something to do with the price. Let us not all take it out on RL.
And after all, the Perception Neuron thing was twice the price.
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By rampart - 7 Years Ago
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Exactly.... My concern. So, we have a thousand dollar plugin pack for mocap facial expressions. Top that off with the other mocap stuff and we are priced beyond Indie.
Will RL push us to all the expensive plugins, quit further development of those types of tools for IClone basically forcing us to professional plugins.
I suspect this will not go well long term, if that is their thinking.
I will be looking for alternatives.
Adobe is now making headway into animation and character software. I can buy a license for $50 a month for everything in their creative suite and $30 a month on sale.
My experience with Adobe has been sketchy, but since Sony Vegas and SourceForge were bought by another company, The Vegas Pro is just one program and it has to be updated approximately every two years has been my experience.,
I have version 13, but I don't plan to update it at the prices offered. I can pay $50 dollars per month or $600 per year and have Photoshop, Premier, Audition, After Effects and updates are included with the subscription. So, I won't be updating my Sony Vegas Pro hereafter. I recently got email offer to upgrade my SV pro to version 14 for $249, version 15 just released and it is similarly priced.... and that is only one application.
Adobe Premier is very similar to Sony Vegas so it won't be difficult move. I can get 20+ Adobe applications applicable to my work. No, I don't like to be locked in for $50 per month, but I really think leasing software is the future. Companies want consistent cash flows, and marketing costs are significantly lower.
Look for adobe.com creative cloud. Scroll through the choices you will understand my thinking on this.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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Well said, Will (and others).
As someone pointed out another time, take up fishing as a hobby. Buy a boat, a trailer, rods and reels, lures... see how much that hobby costs.
I'm not immune to spending as little as possible, so I'm not being insensitive to the cost. I limped along with sub-par graphics cards for years. I finally have a great GPU, but my CPU is a 3rd-generation i7, while 8th-generation ones will be out in a quarter or so. I'll probably continue to live with my CPU since it isn't a big bottleneck, and I can spend my money on other accessories or software.
Fast computer, fast food, fast women... you chose where to spend (or not spend) your money.
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By thebiz.movies - 7 Years Ago
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justaviking (9/21/2017)
Fast computer, fast food, fast women... you chose where to spend (or not spend) your money.
Haha, indeed.
I'm going to wait till I see folks making huge leaps and bounds with this software before I really start saving those pennies (er nickles in this case). Its one thing to see a RL promo or tutorial and quite another to see the end users getting the same results. When that happens I think I might be tempted...
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By Skuzzlebutt - 7 Years Ago
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the few user tests posted so far are very unimpressive.
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By rampart - 7 Years Ago
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budbundy (9/21/2017)
the few user tests posted so far are very unimpressive.
Hmmm... and your eloquent contribution to this topic is where?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Dennis is spot on -- and note that most high end graphics cards (such as the 1080) can cost nearly as much as Faceware. I don't hear a lot of folks complaining about that (and a LOT of iClone users have the 1080).
Look -- I predicted a while back this WOULD cause a divide between users here -- and was roundly pounded on by almost everyone. "OH NO!", they all said "THAT won't happen!" But I can see both sides clearly -- pricing a plugin for a program twice (or more) what the program itself costs is bound to rankle some folks.
So I was pretty sure what the price would be and was still a bit concerned. I'm okay with the price myself, but I'd also like for EVERYONE to have this capabilities (I'm a big believer in putting tools in the hands of everyone). So that part is a bit disappointing. But I still like to point out there are at least a couple of folks here who think they can get just as good a result in iClone without the plugin. If that's even slightly true, then no one should be complaining.
And the plugin isn't magic -- I'm already trying to define a workflow and it isn't as straightforward as I might have thought originally. For one thing, my dialog driven animation is always between two or more people. That poses some interesting problems that have to be solved -- they can be, and I can work with it, but it's not a slam dunk. So it isn't nirvana and the have nots shouldn't feel like they are being left out.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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I will say the same thing I said in the original thread and in the other thread I just replied to.
Faceware is not required to do good animation in iClone. It is a time saving tool. It is also a purely optional purchase so it isn't like RL are forcing it on people. RL now has the cheapest high quality face capture solution. There is literally nothing on the market that gives good results for cheaper. RL does not price Faceware so people should be super happy they are not paying standard retail price which was still a good deal for this kind of capture.
RL also put a lot of effort into making hand animation of faces better with 7 so that is a very viable option and doesn't cost you any extra. I think for most people though the time savings and quality of capture are more than enough to justify less trips to Starbucks to buy the plugin.
Save goes for all their other plugins and content packs and such. You do not NEED then to do animation in iClone. They are just time savers. iClone itself is a time saver over doing all this work in something like Blender. Ditching iClone for Adobe doesn't really make sense since Adobe isn't playing in this space really. You can make a solid argument for moving from Crazytalk Animator or giving up on 3D character animation, but I think for most people they have both if they are doing any sort of editorial work.
If you think RL are pricing their stuff anywhere near the professional market you have never done purchasing for the professional market. You can buy their entire software portfolio and not come close to many pro software setups. Try pricing Maya (leaving out MotionBuilder as you can do it pretty well in Maya now though most studio setups would have MotionBuilder), Faceware Live Studio, Xsens, Nuke (not even NukeX), V-Ray as a very bare bones professional setup for performance capture and see where you end up.
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By rampart - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (9/21/2017)
Dennis is spot on -- and note that most high end graphics cards (such as the 1080) can cost nearly as much as Faceware. I don't hear a lot of folks complaining about that (and a LOT of iClone users have the 1080).
Look -- I predicted a while back this WOULD cause a divide between users here -- and was roundly pounded on by almost everyone. "OH NO!", they all said "THAT won't happen!" But I can see both sides clearly -- pricing a plugin for a program twice (or more) what the program itself costs is bound to rankle some folks.
So I was pretty sure what the price would be and was still a bit concerned. I'm okay with the price myself, but I'd also like for EVERYONE to have this capabilities (I'm a big believer in putting tools in the hands of everyone). So that part is a bit disappointing. But I still like to point out there are at least a couple of folks here who think they can get just as good a result in iClone without the plugin. If that's even slightly true, then no one should be complaining.
And the plugin isn't magic -- I'm already trying to define a workflow and it isn't as straightforward as I might have thought originally. For one thing, my dialog driven animation is always between two or more people. That poses some interesting problems that have to be solved -- they can be, and I can work with it, but it's not a slam dunk. So it isn't nirvana and the have nots shouldn't feel like they are being left out.
It doesn't bother me that there are people that will buy it. My concern is RL will retract and not continue to improve IClone, instead relying upon 3rd party plugins.
Acceptance of these new Mocap tools may have alot to do with how indie producers use their characters. I don't do extreme closeups, even Crazytalk is lacking, but seems right enough for my viewers.
I have the CT pipeline and can get pretty good lipsync and facial expressions on my characters.
I suspect there are many Iclone users that really want to tweak the edges of realism in their work. Maybe the facial mocap will meet their needs.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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As far as quality goes, with a little help it is on par with any other professional face capture solution out there. Some might have a few tricks up their sleeve using a depth camera for better mouth tracking but you will often find with those solutions you then have to convert, on your own depth data or point cloud data into blend shape or bone data on your own because those high-end solutions expect you are using custom face rigs.
Faceware is used on tons of AAA titles, TV, films, and short form content so to say that the results are unimpressive shows very little understanding in how performance capture is used.
Have you seen ILM's demo of their latest face capture setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N96em3n_9Q
They are doing a MOVA style setup so luminous makeup and markers and even then there is some mouth mushiness. Why? A lot happens inside the mouth to form speech and even with a depth camera you are not capturing inside the mouth so you rely in things like a FACS data set and/or machine learning to try and solve for things like tongue movement and mouth shape anticipation (shape a mouth will move into in anticipation of a phoneme or between phoneme).
That is why there are mocap cleanup artists and animators still. Is this stuff good enough for a realtime experience like AR/VR or other interactive experiences, hell yeah. I don't think many people would complain too much with the results from that video. Most people will be very happy with the results they get right out of Faceware. But RAW data and finished animation are generally two very different things.
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By michael7 - 7 Years Ago
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Rampa respectfully, I don't know budbundy, but it's comments like these regarding this product that I'm looking at ( for the moment ) to gain some insight. Basically because ( and I'll admit I haven't see many videos ) the one video from Reallusion I saw wasn't very impressive to me. I'm hoping what I saw was just a rough video and that it gets better, especially with the mouth. Which is why I asked Kellytoons what he thought of the program so far ( in another thread ). Video link below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQOakRw8VWo
As for movie making there really is a key to making a great movie. Though great movie and popular movie aren't always synonymous. Take a movie like Lynch's Mulholland Drive.
Great visuals.
Great sound design.
Great layered story, with characters that contain a deep emotional meaning, with a story that gets better and better the deeper and deeper you look.
The thing is it takes a lot of hard work to make anything good in this world. That's the one and only key. So people are right when they say there is no standard template ( a to b to c ) to always making a great film, BECAUSE a lot of what goes into making ANYTHING good - is the refining process. Editing ( and reediting ) for movies. And until you reach the refining stage there are things you just won't know if they work or not, or what gems lay underneath that you might find. The refining process can't be placed into a formula ( even though Hollywood tries and often fails ), because the refining process for a film is dependent on the elements that go into the film. You just can't say; stamp them all out like this ( again what Hollywood often tries to do ). One might catch and ride the " popular " wave for a while creating like this. But the film won't stand the test of time, which only the good does.
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By dr.zap - 7 Years Ago
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rampart (9/21/2017)
It doesn't bother me that there are people that will buy it. My concern is RL will retract and not continue to improve IClone, instead relying upon 3rd party plugins.
Acceptance of these new Mocap tools may have alot to do with how indie producers use their characters. I don't do extreme closeups, even Crazytalk is lacking, but seems right enough for my viewers.
I have the CT pipeline and can get pretty good lipsync and facial expressions on my characters.
I suspect there are many Iclone users that really want to tweak the edges of realism in their work. Maybe the facial mocap will meet their needs.
Why would you be concerned about this? Do you see any reasons to be concerned? Honestly, I wonder why people don't just enjoy their software instead of inventing concerns to worry about. No company in their right mind would sit on a product and stop developing when they are fighting for space in a market. iClone is still eclipsing in a quickly developing market and you're worried that they will abandon it? Of course they will continue to develop it and if you want updated features, you probably will have to pay more but that is the same of every product in the world. You can't expect people to work for free. But to be worried that a company with a good competitive market will suddenly abandon the product is just......crazy. The good news (as has already been said) is you have a choice. If you don't want to buy high-end features, you don't have to. In fact, you don't have to spend a single dime and keep what you have for eternity. What in the world is the controversy about? Go make some movies. iClone isn't going anywhere.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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The technology is there, now it's up to you, yes YOU! Don't wait for others to impress you, impress yourself. In other words, it's now up to the artists.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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I want to also add this thought: I am of the opinion if you truly want to be an Indie company you will have to have this class of tools. because other wise you will never make deadlines producing any form of animations. Because the smaller the group the more refined the tools must be to achieve professional results in a timely manner..
rampart (9/21/2017)
Exactly.... My concern. So, we have a thousand dollar plugin pack for mocap facial expressions. Top that off with the other mocap stuff and we are priced beyond Indie.
First when you say indie: this is meaning a small independent company (someone making money not a hobbyist) so $700 bucks to cut down hours of work (save money) So simple math 20$ hr = 35 hours work is 700 bucks. I think anyone who has done facial animation can say it wouldn't take long to save 35 hours using this device over hand animating. So when you say Indie, are you really an Indie or a Hobbyist? And as a hobbyist hell you can't always get all the add-on's you want. other hobby's ( hunting simple shotgun 200 bucks big bad ass rifle with special trigger and scope 3000 bucks, Bikes simple Walmart 200 decked out specialist 3-4-5 thousand) So as a Hobbyist you get what you can afford and as an "Indie" you get what saves you money when you can afford it...
Will RL push us to all the expensive plugins, quit further development of those types of tools for IClone basically forcing us to professional plugins.
I don't see them forcing anything. in face seems like they gave us a lot of cool new hand tools for facial animation. you make it sound like they left the tools the same and say well to use the extra new 30 facial motions you will have to have the Faceware plug in. this isn't the case they gave us access to all of it and then said you can also get this if you want it.
I suspect this will not go well long term, if that is their thinking.
I will be looking for alternatives.
Adobe is now making headway into animation and character software. I can buy a license for $50 a month for everything in their creative suite and $30 a month on sale.
Remember this though 50 month forever 600 a year 1800 at 3 years. you mess with iclone for 3 years and decide I don't want to upgrade anymore you still get to use the software you own it. decide to quite using Adobe you loose access after 30 days gone...
My experience with Adobe has been sketchy, but since Sony Vegas and SourceForge were bought by another company, The Vegas Pro is just one program and it has to be updated approximately every two years has been my experience.,
I have version 13, but I don't plan to update it at the prices offered. I can pay $50 dollars per month or $600 per year and have Photoshop, Premier, Audition, After Effects and updates are included with the subscription. So, I won't be updating my Sony Vegas Pro hereafter. I recently got email offer to upgrade my SV pro to version 14 for $249, version 15 just released and it is similarly priced.... and that is only one application.
Adobe Premier is very similar to Sony Vegas so it won't be difficult move. I can get 20+ Adobe applications applicable to my work. No, I don't like to be locked in for $50 per month, but I really think leasing software is the future. Companies want consistent cash flows, and marketing costs are significantly lower.
Look for adobe.com creative cloud. Scroll through the choices you will understand my thinking on this.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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And actually you need to look up "original Simpson" animation the image you have here is after they were using cel-animating the first season was a lot different. Its hard to imagine it being the longest running show ever... but the original is even lower quality giving the Story is king. I agree if all is great makes it that much greater but... never mind that is a deep subject...
Delerna (9/20/2017)
I'm not trying saying high level/reallistic graphics is not a good thing to have. I have iClone7 and highly appreciate its graphics. I now also have the faceware mocap software and have watched the tutorials just published and am very impressed and keen to start working with it. However I see lots of very popular animations ....... everywhere ......... that convinces me that high level graphics are nice to have but are not necessary to make popular animations.
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By rampart - 7 Years Ago
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dr.zap (9/22/2017)
rampart (9/21/2017)
It doesn't bother me that there are people that will buy it. My concern is RL will retract and not continue to improve IClone, instead relying upon 3rd party plugins.
Acceptance of these new Mocap tools may have alot to do with how indie producers use their characters. I don't do extreme closeups, even Crazytalk is lacking, but seems right enough for my viewers.
I have the CT pipeline and can get pretty good lipsync and facial expressions on my characters.
I suspect there are many Iclone users that really want to tweak the edges of realism in their work. Maybe the facial mocap will meet their needs.
Why would you be concerned about this? Do you see any reasons to be concerned? Honestly, I wonder why people don't just enjoy their software instead of inventing concerns to worry about. No company in their right mind would sit on a product and stop developing when they are fighting for space in a market. iClone is still eclipsing in a quickly developing market and you're worried that they will abandon it? Of course they will continue to develop it and if you want updated features, you probably will have to pay more but that is the same of every product in the world. You can't expect people to work for free. But to be worried that a company with a good competitive market will suddenly abandon the product is just......crazy. The good news (as has already been said) is you have a choice. If you don't want to buy high-end features, you don't have to. In fact, you don't have to spend a single dime and keep what you have for eternity. What in the world is the controversy about? Go make some movies. iClone isn't going anywhere.
IT might be worth it to explain a bit... As I recall, I started with IClone in 2011. I have purchased every application and almost the entire conternt library during that time. I have purchased all manner of marketplace items as well.
I have an investment in RL. When you have investments you tend to want to preserve them. If RL hadn't dragged their feet so long on the release of the CC I would never have taken the complicated route of using 3dxchange continuously to import content from other companies.
IMO RL has become non-competitive with other companies more so than in the past. I remember buying IClone items just to support RL.
You said, "Iclone isn't going anywhere".... Do you have inside information, do you have any idea how many companies have sold out?
Adobe recently bought Mixamo, BlackMagic Design bought several major animation applications, Magix bought Sony Vegas, etc. When do people sell... when the price is right
Do I suspect Iclone is for sale? I don't think the developers are completely bored with it yet.
When the price is right it will be sold.
Why do I think it will be sold? Because RL is not acquiring other applications or companies.
When prices start getting jacked up for the customer base it isn't out of line to think the company is taking advantage to enhance the company value and image.
I am not overly concerned. There are considerable tools available to us now.
As long as we have export and import tools I will do just fine.
The best part is I am not locked into Iclone any longer. I was when I first started with Iclone.
Most developers realize the value of more fluid usage of content provided by export and import.
I use 3dxchange, because my final destination has been into Iclone. Saves me time to go this route.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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rampart (9/22/2017)
IT might be worth it to explain a bit... As I recall, I started with IClone in 2011. I have purchased every application and almost the entire conternt library during that time. I have purchased all manner of marketplace items as well.
I have an investment in RL. When you have investments you tend to want to preserve them. If RL hadn't dragged their feet so long on the release of the CC I would never have taken the complicated route of using 3dxchange continuously to import content from other companies.
I to have been involved with Iclone for +5 years. I feel they are expanding and moving into interesting territory and as long as I can purchase from them or bring in what I need and the software provided the services I need I will continue to use it. You think because they are giving us access to other software they are somehow failing us? I say why reinvent the wheel every time? Yes you have to decide when you need to make your own wheel but sometimes it's better to focus on the car and purchase the tires from someone who has been in the business a long time allowing you to keep focus on the car itself, and just making sure the tire the other company provide do what we expect...
IMO RL has become non-competitive with other companies more so than in the past. I remember buying IClone items just to support RL.
You said, "Iclone isn't going anywhere".... Do you have inside information, do you have any idea how many companies have sold out?
Adobe recently bought Mixamo, BlackMagic Design bought several major animation applications, Magix bought Sony Vegas, etc. When do people sell... when the price is right
#1 an company who isn't at the top of the food chain I.e. Microsoft, Apple to name a few can be bought. this is business 101 I work for a company valued at over 10 billion and we were bought...
Do I suspect Iclone is for sale? I don't think the developers are completely bored with it yet.
When the price is right it will be sold.
Why do I think it will be sold? Because RL is not acquiring other applications or companies.
When prices start getting jacked up for the customer base it isn't out of line to think the company is taking advantage to enhance the company value and image.
I am not overly concerned. There are considerable tools available to us now.
As long as we have export and import tools I will do just fine.
The best part is I am not locked into Iclone any longer. I was when I first started with Iclone.
Most developers realize the value of more fluid usage of content provided by export and import.
I use 3dxchange, because my final destination has been into Iclone. Saves me time to go this route.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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It's good that the FaceWare plugin now has its own section...
For real content go here: https://forum.reallusion.com/iClone/Plugins/Facial-Mocap-Plugin-Faceware.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Had dinner with the folks at RL at SIGGRAPH, they are very committed to the software and growing their business and more and more R&D. The examples of software that was bought kind of invalidates your worry as the purchase gave more value and greater development to the software and was offered back to the users at a much lower price, in the case of Blackmagic you now spend ten of thousands less on software that is more capable, even the free versions are better.
If Autodesk or Apple or Google buys RL then I would be worried, they all love to ingest IP and kill it in its current form to get access to pieces of the tech for other products. Faceshift for Apple is playing a huge part of Health and the iPhoneX release. Softimage for Autodesk is playing a part in Bifrost development, etc.
I am sure if a company comes along and throws money at RL they would sell, they would be crazy not to. But as of now they are hard at work making their products better and better. iClone 7 represents a major shift for them in my own opinion as they are catering heavily to the indie market while still trying to keep current customers happy. I would say they bent over backwards and worked their tails off to try and strike a nice balance of tools to woo professionals and features to keep their main user base happy. Almost all the professional stuff is optional and in no way effects the cost of the core product.
Competition in the realtime space is going to get fierce moving forward and RL has a solid plan to carve out a good chunk.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks for the insights, FR.
I'm perfectly happy with where RL seems to be going. 7 was a HUGE step forward, and adding the FW stuff makes it a platform to compete with just about any animation package out there. RL clearly is trying to make this the best animation package bar none, and doing it at a cost that should shame the folks at Autodesk.
I think Python scripting and better particles (both of which we know are coming) will complete iClone and it will then be hard to argue with their position for almost anyone outside of a major studio (who use their own in-house software anyway). I'm just glad I lived long enough to see this (using Max for decades I was so frustrated with character animation it was killing me).
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Freerange is right - this is the cheapest software solution you can find of this caliber. I agree with him this is very important because it shows how in touch RL is with its user base as well as putting out a high quality product.
Kelleytoons and I in pre-release threads were putting forth what we felt of pricing as it related to considering the hobbyist user base.
We both bought the plugin Day 1.
In principal, I can't tell anyone they are wrong for not wanting to pay an amount as part of an exchange for something. But what I will say is that there are going to be MANY MANY RL users buying this plugin, where the price is.
Not only that, there are going to be MANY MANY new iClone users as a result of them being attracted to the pricing-to-quality ratio they will believe they can get. For a Hobbyist this may not be a big deal, because it is a hobby. But maybe for an indie filmmaker it is of more consequence, because there is the element of competition? How many indie film makers are now going to have access to this great opportunity to have amazing facial mocap.
I too have recently done more with just the face key and puppet tools alone, you can get great results. But this plugin is SICK....Suh-Suh-Suh-Suh-Suh-SSSSIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK!!!!!
Anyway, Rampart - you want this plugin.
BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY!
PS - Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh-BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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LOL -- you tell 'em, Tony.
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