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Help: Weightmap Issue With Custom Cloth

Posted By Lord Ashes 8 Years Ago
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Pitapan
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Delerna (2/25/2017)

Ohhhhhh My.  Yes I know the effect of that image.......all too well:crying:

 So don't worry, your not alone on that effect. Happens to me quite regularly
Like I said earlier, I find that getting cloth flow to work properly is the most complicated, difficult, time consuming, frustrating and infuriating part of creating clothes.

Don't get me wrong though, I really enjoy doing it.....especially when I finally get it working.

Not sure if I'm a good enough tutorial maker but OK I will look into it and try and get something here soon.
I think I will post it in a new thread
I am working on quite a few things at the moment but I often put aside something that I am having trouble or getting frustrated with and go and work on something else. Actually, that would be my strongest suggestion.
Are you having problems and getting frustrated? Then put it aside and go and work on something else that is a bit simpler for a while. Come back to it later.
I often find I get new ideas and thoughts about how to resolve the problem by doing that.

I will try doing a step by step images with descriptions guide because I am getting old and struggle with pulling well known words out of my head while talking a lot. I find it much easier to type what I want to say

Anyway, PitaPan, do you mean only the rigging in blender part of making clothes? A bit of detail about what you would like to see will help me put together a guide that will help you the most.  I sell content but I really don't mind helping people who want to model, well, at least as best as I can anyway. However be aware, I think I make reasonably good clothes but I don't consider myself to be an expert. What I show will be how I do it which works for me but may or may not be the best way. Getting to know the best way to do things is of course a primary goal and is something I allways target. But I find that just making what you want according to your current knowledge to be more important. For me, learning better ways to work comes from actually doing the work.

LOL, oh dear I starting to rant and rave now. I shall stop.



Yes, I want the rigging part of it in blender. I can create basic cloth in Marvelous designer and Zbrush. I can import it to Blender and bind it to the body FBX body mesh in Blender and also do Weight Transfer.
This is where I am stuck. As you rightly said image can speak 1000 words
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/db36ef75-9ba2-4494-ba0b-7662.jpg
I do buy content from the market. However, at this moment what I need to create now is African clothes. They are lacking in the Reallusion Content.
So I must create it all by myself.
Thank you for the words of encouragement. As I wait for you to help me solve the puzzle I will go to other projects.
By the way, if you call that ranking, I beg you, dont stop. I need more of it.
Thank you very much.
Delerna
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Ohhhhhh My.  Yes I know the effect of that image.......all too well:crying:

 So don't worry, your not alone on that effect. Happens to me quite regularly
Like I said earlier, I find that getting cloth flow to work properly is the most complicated, difficult, time consuming, frustrating and infuriating part of creating clothes.

Don't get me wrong though, I really enjoy doing it.....especially when I finally get it working.

Not sure if I'm a good enough tutorial maker but OK I will look into it and try and get something here soon.
I think I will post it in a new thread
I am working on quite a few things at the moment but I often put aside something that I am having trouble or getting frustrated with and go and work on something else. Actually, that would be my strongest suggestion.
Are you having problems and getting frustrated? Then put it aside and go and work on something else that is a bit simpler for a while. Come back to it later.
I often find I get new ideas and thoughts about how to resolve the problem by doing that.

I will try doing a step by step images with descriptions guide because I am getting old and struggle with pulling well known words out of my head while talking a lot. I find it much easier to type what I want to say

Anyway, PitaPan, do you mean only the rigging in blender part of making clothes? A bit of detail about what you would like to see will help me put together a guide that will help you the most.  I sell content but I really don't mind helping people who want to model, well, at least as best as I can anyway. However be aware, I think I make reasonably good clothes but I don't consider myself to be an expert. What I show will be how I do it which works for me but may or may not be the best way. Getting to know the best way to do things is of course a primary goal and is something I allways target. But I find that just making what you want according to your current knowledge to be more important. For me, learning better ways to work comes from actually doing the work.

LOL, oh dear I starting to rant and rave now. I shall stop.




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Pitapan
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Delerna (2/17/2017)
Sticking with the phrasing your using here is how I understand this
The horizontal weight mapping I described helps to smooth the cloth flow on the vertices between the left and right legs because each of those vertices are affected by both legs.
The closer the vertice is to the leg the more it is effected by that leg. The further the vertice is away from the leg the less it is effected. that's why it is smoothed.
The vertices in the middle, the ones set to .5 are affected by both legs equally. and then as you goto vertices towards a leg. those vertices get effected slightly more by one leg and slightly less by the other.
So now they are all effected smoothly a.
I realise that explanation is probably obvious to you but I am saying it because the vertical rig gradient your talking about does the same thing between each bone on that leg.
So, for example, If you need the cloth to flow smoothly between the calf knee and upper leg bones then you would need to do a similar thing like I have vertically for each of those bones more smoothly.
Sometimes I do that and that is why I said the way you rig and weight map depends on the clothing you are making. For a dress I find doing the vertical gradient to be unnecessary because the physics weight mapping smooths it out enough.
However, if you did do vertical gradients between the bones as well then I think the cloth flow would possibly work a bit better. But I don't think it makes much difference visibly on a dress.

I have studied reallusions method of rigging a dress. It seems that they do it so the rigging gradients are circular around each bone.
Here is a couple of images I took to help me with learning the best way to rig clothes
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/f976471b-e86b-4ab9-8878-8f4b.png
 https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/dc233db8-1107-4e76-a8ab-1427.png

Thank goodness. I have been stuck for weeks trying to solve this puzzle. I beg you, please can you do a video of the method, or at least do a step by step image tutorial. I will really help those of us are new to beginners in Blender.

Delerna
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Sticking with the phrasing your using here is how I understand this
The horizontal weight mapping I described helps to smooth the cloth flow on the vertices between the left and right legs because each of those vertices are affected by both legs.
The closer the vertice is to the leg the more it is effected by that leg. The further the vertice is away from the leg the less it is effected. that's why it is smoothed.
The vertices in the middle, the ones set to .5 are affected by both legs equally. and then as you goto vertices towards a leg. those vertices get effected slightly more by one leg and slightly less by the other.
So now they are all effected smoothly a.
I realise that explanation is probably obvious to you but I am saying it because the vertical rig gradient your talking about does the same thing between each bone on that leg.
So, for example, If you need the cloth to flow smoothly between the calf knee and upper leg bones then you would need to do a similar thing like I have vertically for each of those bones more smoothly.
Sometimes I do that and that is why I said the way you rig and weight map depends on the clothing you are making. For a dress I find doing the vertical gradient to be unnecessary because the physics weight mapping smooths it out enough.
However, if you did do vertical gradients between the bones as well then I think the cloth flow would possibly work a bit better. But I don't think it makes much difference visibly on a dress.

I have studied reallusions method of rigging a dress. It seems that they do it so the rigging gradients are circular around each bone.
Here is a couple of images I took to help me with learning the best way to rig clothes
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/f976471b-e86b-4ab9-8878-8f4b.png
 https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/dc233db8-1107-4e76-a8ab-1427.png


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Lord Ashes
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Delerna (2/17/2017)
Yes absolutely
If you want the cloth to flow realistically then physics weight mapping is a must have. And yes grey scale from the top to the bottom.

Thanks for all the information. With your info, I am slowing getting there. Still needs some tweaks but I am much further along than I was before I posted.
(BTW, I completely understand what you mean by the fact that the "top" varies depending on the clothing)

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Bowser and Blue, Busting The Breast
Lord Ashes
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Snarp Farkle (2/17/2017)
I think the video you were looking for is from this set of threads [HERE]

Thanks for finding it...That is the tutorial that I started with. It would be nice if they expanded it with the stuff that Delerna posted regarding weight paints because it is very informative but seems to be counter to the weight maps that you get when you do a body transfer. For example, the weight maps for the leg bones show up as vertical gradients on the skirt/pants portion of the mesh when you transfer the weights from the body but the weight maps (with no vertical gradient) indicated by Delerna seem to work much better for skirts/dresses.

"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to bear arms while we have the right to bare breasts"
Bowser and Blue, Busting The Breast
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I think the video you were looking for is from this set of threads [HERE]


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Delerna
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Yes absolutely
If you want the cloth to flow realistically then physics weight mapping is a must have. And yes grey scale from the top to the bottom.
what I mean by "The top" can vary.
For my multigown the top was at the waist, if memory serves me correctly.
For my multismock the top was on the breasts. so gradient mapped from top to bottom black to white or black to light grey depending on how you want it to flow.

Just a note on my discoveries.
I find that getting cloth flow to work properly is the most complicated, difficult, time consuming, frustrating and infuriating part of creating clothes.
However, when I finally get it working I also find it the most satisfying ego bumping achievement LOL
It definitely needs a good combination between your bone rigging in blender and the physics weight mapping in iClone that depends a lot on the type of clothing you are making.

I often just do a very basic meshing of a clothing and then try different ways of rigging and weight mapping just to see what effects it has and hopefully improve my capabilities.
When making actual clothes I now keep the meshing as simple as possible and get the cloth flowing right.
Once the cloth flow is right I then start adding mesh details I need.
I used to totally make the mesh first and then get the cloth flow but found that difficult to get cloth flowing right because of how I constructed the mesh.

Not saying the way I do it now is the best way but its the way I find easiest, at least for now. Who knows, I will probably make more discoveries and change my workflow again.
But I recommend, start simple and gradually work towards more complicated clothing. What you figure out with the simple stuff will assist you when you start making more complicated clothes. That's what I find anyway




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Lord Ashes
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Delerna (2/16/2017)

A picture is worth 1000 words so here are 4 images put together to illustrate what I am saying

I tried your suggested weight map. I doubted them a bit because the body weight maps had the weight map gradient going vertically as well. But for the most part the suggested weight maps worked.
I definitely did not get the "stick" effect and walking and dancing seem to be okay...need a bit of a fix one one but otherwise OK.
However, I don't seem to be getting the nice bendable flow that you get in the gown. My dress bends to accommodate the bones but it is fairly rigid. Are you using weight painting for the bones AND physics weight maps? I tried to provide a simple Physics weight map (black on top, white on bottom) and this caused the hip area of the dress to go "inside" the body. I'm guessing I need a gradient from black to white instead of a rigid step.   

"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to bear arms while we have the right to bare breasts"
Bowser and Blue, Busting The Breast
Lord Ashes
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I tried again this time I just modified a few of the bones and that seem to work correctly...I did not get the "stick".
It almost seems that if you set too much of the bones to 0% weight (or maybe some bones to 0% weight) then the problem appears.

"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to bear arms while we have the right to bare breasts"
Bowser and Blue, Busting The Breast

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