This is an offshoot of my older thread about animating props.

So far, I've learned a lot about:

• Attaching props and sub-props
• MERGING attached props into a single prop
• "Edit Animation Layer" - which can only be done after you do the merge
• How attaching a prop to a previously scaled parent really messes things up
• Moving the PIVOT point
• Being able to do IK animations in a prop I've merged

Here's where I need help.  I feel like I'm so close, but one thing in particular has me stumped:

• My props seem to have some inherent "center point" that I cannot control
• Even if I Reset my prop, Reset Transform, and Edit Pivot, I get an unwanted pivot that completely messes up my IK behavior
• See pictures, below

A couple other things that still perplex me are:

• Trying to re-structure a prop's hierarchy in 3DXchange
• Doing IK animation using local coordinates (I think this will be an enhancement request)
• Why I get an "extra, intermediate phantom prop" in the hierarchy in 3DXchange
• But more on those later

WHAT WORKS:

I have successfully created a prop that looks like an industrial robot.  I used cylinders, and when you double-click to add a cylinder prop, it has one end at 0,0,0.  I stretched it into a longer cylinder and made my robot.  I can do IK animations and it works great.

When I "Edit Animation Layer," it has bones...

And my IK (Inverse Kinematics) animation works great.

If I move one of the limbs (FK, not IK) to separate them, you can see a previously invisible bone between the limbs.

WHAT DOES NOT WORK:

I tried to make the same robot using rectangles instead of cylinders.  The heart of the problem is that the "center-point" of a cylinder is not at one of the ends.

So I did "EDIT PIVOT" and moved the pivot point to one end.  I did the Reset Transformation and Reset Scale too.

I assembled my robot, and you can see that the rotate gizmo is exactly where I want it to be.

But... that "extra" bone that was initially invisible when I used cylinders is still tied to the ORIGINAL origin of the prop.  You can now see the TWO BONES that make up each limb of my robot.

When I do IK animation, this makes it pivot in the wrong locations.  It somehow remembers the original pivot point, even though I did an Edit Pivot and reset transformation.  (See two pictures earlier).  Here you can see how the limbs pull away from each other, because of where the pivot is located.  (People with sharp eyes will notice my rectangles changed.  I made a mistake, but did not recreate all my screen shots.  That doesn't affect my story.)

SO... WHAT TO DO?

How can I make iClone use the pivot point I want?

In 3DXchange, there is a "Singularize Pivots" that I can't find any documentation on.  I think it does what I need, sort of.  But it's not very convenient, and I don't like randomly clicking on things.

Any and all help will be appreciated.  I've learned a lot (mostly what NOT to do) and will be willing to share my knowledge, limited as it may be.  But this is nearly a show-stopper for me.  Help, please!

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

I think a simple question would be:

• Is there any way to actually edit a BONE, either in 3DXhcnage or iClone?
• I wish I could simply grab the point between two bones and move it where I want it to be, sort of like editing a pivot point.

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Here's one more observation, that may provide an additional clue.

When you MERGE a prop, you get a "duplicate" of each item that wasn't there when you initially attached children to parents.

What I originally expected (and wanted):

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

What I get is:

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• "original pivot" of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Challenge/question:

• Can anyone create a mechanism like the one I built - out of "box" primitives - and get it to behave as well as the one I made out of cylinders?
• If so, what's the magic step I'm missing?

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

I'd take you up on that challenge if I weren't so crosseyed from trying to figure out what all these buttons in 3Dcoat do!

I'm sure swoop will have something to show within a month.

I'm betting on Cricky, Warlord or Mark though to do something fascinating!

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"To define Tao is to defile it" - Lao Tzu

@psd - I look forward to it.  I am more than willing do share what I do know, either in this thread for via PM.

I was actually considering making my first-ever tutorial, but then I got stuck on this problem.  I really though setting the pivot point was going to be the magic key, but it didn't solve everything for me yet.

How do I get it to "forget" what the original origin of the prop was?

I tried saving my rectangular bar as a custom prop after editing the origin and resetting everything.  It all looked grand until I merged it into one prop and did Edit Motion Layer, and then I could see the two bones that belong to a limb of my robot still went to the mid-point, not my pivot point.

I'm going to play around with 3DXchange some more and see if that helps in a way I've overlooked.

Meanwhile, here's a picture of the "duplicate layers" I get, either when I merge a prop, or when I open the un-merged version in 3DXchange (shown below):

It's not so much that I mind the extra layers (even though I would prefer to eliminate them).  It's that they introduce a pivot in an unwanted location.

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

at a quick glance though, to cheat with 3rd party tools, I'd use messiah to rig the mesh and use meta surfaces to have each segment move mechanical. This is a perfect rig for it too.
Basically it would be making a super tight weight map to each bone / mesh.

also, I think you added too many bones in this rig - to really get that mech look, you should have one bone per segment imo. - I always say, the less you have, the less you have that can go wrong! I have found many a great solution using that philosophy.

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"To define Tao is to defile it" - Lao Tzu

YES!!!  EXACTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO!!!  (I'm exasperated.  I am not angry with you.)

I (stress "I") did not make those extra bones!!!!!  It happens automatically when I "Merge" my prop (or when I take the un-merged rig into 3DXchange).

I would LOVE to get rid of the extra bones.

Repeating what I said earlier:

What I originally expected (and wanted):

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

What I get is:

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• "original pivot" of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

And what's currently driving me crazy is I can't seem to control the location of that "original" pivot, nor can I get one bone per arm segment.

I would be so happy if it turns out to be something simple I'm overlooking.  I'll trade embarrassment for success any day.

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

It might be something with the pivot editor and editing the pivots after you have moved your arm member from 0,0,0.

try it in this order:

Double click block to insert at 0,0,0.

Set pivot to bottom. You want it exact, so click on the middle bottom dot in the pivot indicator rather than manually setting it.

Scale your block down. Note that it scales from the bottom where the pivot is on the grid.

Scale the Z axis up to a reasonable length.

Choose the move tool.

Ctrl-Drag on the Zaxis to create your new segment. Repeat for a second segment. If you have more than three, you might want to use the replicator tool.

Choose the last one you made.

Attach it to the one below it.

Select the that one. It'll be a bigger selection now because it has a "child".

Attach to one below it.

Repeat as needed.

Sorry if it seems repetitive and simplistic. I think you were getting a bogus pivot point on your first piece, and it got replicated.

@Rampa,

D'oh!

You have given me a great workaround.  But not a cure.

For THIS CASE (my robot made out of rectangles), all I needed to do was scale my first bar "upward" rather than horizontally.  Then the "original origin" is at a point where I want it to pivot.

See picture of two "boxes".. one scaled horizontally and one scaled vertically...  I'm confident the "vertical" one will behave... for THIS mechanism...

BUT... That will not be the magic cure for all mechanisms, and still introduces the "extra layer" of bones in the hierarchy, and still leaves me unable to move that pivot point.

Basically, the "pivot point" is not honored when you merge the prop!  Ah ha!  That's the problem in a nutshell.  If the pivot point post-merge was the same location as where I manually let it, I wouldn't have started this thread.

---

iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD