So far, I've learned a lot about:

• Attaching props and sub-props
• MERGING attached props into a single prop
• "Edit Animation Layer" - which can only be done after you do the merge
• How attaching a prop to a previously scaled parent really messes things up
• Moving the PIVOT point
• Being able to do IK animations in a prop I've merged

Here's where I need help.  I feel like I'm so close, but one thing in particular has me stumped:

• My props seem to have some inherent "center point" that I cannot control
• Even if I Reset my prop, Reset Transform, and Edit Pivot, I get an unwanted pivot that completely messes up my IK behavior
• See pictures, below

A couple other things that still perplex me are:

• Trying to re-structure a prop's hierarchy in 3DXchange
• Doing IK animation using local coordinates (I think this will be an enhancement request)
• Why I get an "extra, intermediate phantom prop" in the hierarchy in 3DXchange
• But more on those later

WHAT WORKS:

I have successfully created a prop that looks like an industrial robot.  I used cylinders, and when you double-click to add a cylinder prop, it has one end at 0,0,0.  I stretched it into a longer cylinder and made my robot.  I can do IK animations and it works great.

When I "Edit Animation Layer," it has bones...

And my IK (Inverse Kinematics) animation works great.

If I move one of the limbs (FK, not IK) to separate them, you can see a previously invisible bone between the limbs.

WHAT DOES NOT WORK:

I tried to make the same robot using rectangles instead of cylinders.  The heart of the problem is that the "center-point" of a cylinder is not at one of the ends.

So I did "EDIT PIVOT" and moved the pivot point to one end.  I did the Reset Transformation and Reset Scale too.

I assembled my robot, and you can see that the rotate gizmo is exactly where I want it to be.

But... that "extra" bone that was initially invisible when I used cylinders is still tied to the ORIGINAL origin of the prop.  You can now see the TWO BONES that make up each limb of my robot.

When I do IK animation, this makes it pivot in the wrong locations.  It somehow remembers the original pivot point, even though I did an Edit Pivot and reset transformation.  (See two pictures earlier).  Here you can see how the limbs pull away from each other, because of where the pivot is located.  (People with sharp eyes will notice my rectangles changed.  I made a mistake, but did not recreate all my screen shots.  That doesn't affect my story.)

SO... WHAT TO DO?

How can I make iClone use the pivot point I want?

In 3DXchange, there is a "Singularize Pivots" that I can't find any documentation on.  I think it does what I need, sort of.  But it's not very convenient, and I don't like randomly clicking on things.

Any and all help will be appreciated.  I've learned a lot (mostly what NOT to do) and will be willing to share my knowledge, limited as it may be.  But this is nearly a show-stopper for me.  Help, please!

• Is there any way to actually edit a BONE, either in 3DXhcnage or iClone?
• I wish I could simply grab the point between two bones and move it where I want it to be, sort of like editing a pivot point.

When you MERGE a prop, you get a "duplicate" of each item that wasn't there when you initially attached children to parents.

What I originally expected (and wanted):

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

What I get is:

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• "original pivot" of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

• Can anyone create a mechanism like the one I built - out of "box" primitives - and get it to behave as well as the one I made out of cylinders?
• If so, what's the magic step I'm missing?

I was actually considering making my first-ever tutorial, but then I got stuck on this problem.  I really though setting the pivot point was going to be the magic key, but it didn't solve everything for me yet.

How do I get it to "forget" what the original origin of the prop was?

I tried saving my rectangular bar as a custom prop after editing the origin and resetting everything.  It all looked grand until I merged it into one prop and did Edit Motion Layer, and then I could see the two bones that belong to a limb of my robot still went to the mid-point, not my pivot point.

I'm going to play around with 3DXchange some more and see if that helps in a way I've overlooked.

Meanwhile, here's a picture of the "duplicate layers" I get, either when I merge a prop, or when I open the un-merged version in 3DXchange (shown below):

It's not so much that I mind the extra layers (even though I would prefer to eliminate them).  It's that they introduce a pivot in an unwanted location.

YES!!!  EXACTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO!!!  (I'm exasperated.  I am not angry with you.)

I (stress "I") did not make those extra bones!!!!!  It happens automatically when I "Merge" my prop (or when I take the un-merged rig into 3DXchange).

I would LOVE to get rid of the extra bones.

Repeating what I said earlier:

What I originally expected (and wanted):

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

What I get is:

• Bone from pivot of Limb 1
  to
• "original pivot" of Limb 1
  to
• pivot of Limb 2

And what's currently driving me crazy is I can't seem to control the location of that "original" pivot, nor can I get one bone per arm segment.

I would be so happy if it turns out to be something simple I'm overlooking.  I'll trade embarrassment for success any day.

D'oh!

You have given me a great workaround.  But not a cure.

For THIS CASE (my robot made out of rectangles), all I needed to do was scale my first bar "upward" rather than horizontally.  Then the "original origin" is at a point where I want it to pivot.

See picture of two "boxes".. one scaled horizontally and one scaled vertically...  I'm confident the "vertical" one will behave... for THIS mechanism...

BUT... That will not be the magic cure for all mechanisms, and still introduces the "extra layer" of bones in the hierarchy, and still leaves me unable to move that pivot point.

Basically, the "pivot point" is not honored when you merge the prop!  Ah ha!  That's the problem in a nutshell.  If the pivot point post-merge was the same location as where I manually let it, I wouldn't have started this thread.

Thank you for the additional thoughts and inspirations.

I took another shape that helps illustrate my problem.  I used "Cross_002."  The original pivot point is at the bottom of the cross.  But I decided to make an imaginary mechanism that joins it arm-to-arm (where the original pivot point/origin is NOT located).

As I was doing before, I scaled it, then moved the origin to where I wanted, and for added measure I even moved to prop so the new pivot point was at the global origin.  Then I reset scale and reset transformation.

I built my mechanism from end-to-base using the Attach function.  At that point, I can rotate any segment and it correctly rotates at the new pivot point I created.

Then I did a MERGE so I could use IK animation, and that's where the problem comes.

This sequence of pictures will show the original prop, my mechanism, and what happens when I pull on the end in an IK animation.  You can very clearly see how it inserts a bone from my custom pivot point to the original origin of the prop.  I cannot find a way around it yet.

Good question.

As sw00000p indicated, the very last one in the chain isn't effective.  I can make a "translate gizmo" appear, but it can't actually move.

However, I did try starting with the "second bone" on my green "T."  I've always picked the first bone, probably just because it's as far back on the chain as I can go without moving the base item.

Sadly, that did not change the behavior.

Keep the ideas coming, though.  It's all appreciated.

I'll see what I can find in the developer center.

Please don't give up on met yet.

Some of your tips... w00000sh over my head.

• sw00000p (speaking like mystical Kung Fu master):  When the cricket chirps and the moon reflects on the ripples in the pond, your path shall be clear.
• justviking:  Huh?

But I can and do learn eventually

Now if there were a way to move the bone's endpoint (pivot point) relative to the geometry, I'd be all set.

Maybe I can find the tutorial sw00000p mentioned.  Haven't had time to look around there yet.  I'm not familiar with the "developer center," though I have heard of it a couple of times.  I assume I  have access to it.

Thanks for looking, and for saving me the headache of looking for something that's not there!

I don't have Max.  My son does some Blender, but he's more into modeling and rendering, not rigging.

I really thought running my prop component(s) through 3DXchange would "relocate the origin" for me, but I seem to have run into a brick wall.

I may have to reach out to our favorite moderator (Peter) and see if he can tell me that I'm missing something, or if I have discovered a gap in iClone that needs some attention from the development team.

P.S.

I wanted to point out that I wasn't trying to insult you with my "Kung Fu" analogy.  I just you should know that some of your explanations a bit too vague for me to follow, so don't be surprised if I have to re-ask the question in a different way or ask a follow-up question sometimes.

You can select where that Pivot Point will be & Edit (Fine-tune) that Pivot Point. But you still only have one Pivot Point.

Using eg; Human IK to Reach a Prop Target, the Human's Selected Reach Effector (Bone) Reaches for the Prop's Pivot Point (Target). That can screw-up the position of the unselected Human's Effectors (Bones). Those can be reset to their original position by Locking to Original (Position) without affecting the selected Reach Effector. That is Human IK.

I haven't the slightest idea how you would apply the above to a Boned Prop. 

There's a 3DXCange Manual Tut re; how to build a Prop bone structure in iClone, using 3D Blocks.

Physics Toolbox Structures would accomplish what Dennis is attempting. But you have to purchase that.

Someone mentioned Null Objects. There's an iClone Wiki Tut re; that by I think Stuckon3D.

In any event, IMO, latching onto just one tiny aspect if iClone's Features at such an early stage would be a distraction from learning the iClone basics of creating a Set with Character interaction, if you want to Produce Storyline clips. If you get the basics right, the rest will naturally follow.

iClone & 3DXChange combined have become huge Programs. I expect subsequent combined Versions will kick Autodesk products into touch ;)    

Mostly true.  In the last mechanism/linkage I posted, the one made out of Tees (Cross_002), I manually set the pivot point to be at the top-left part of the T.  And if I rotate the T using the rotate gizmo, that is exactly where it rotates.  But if I manipulate it using IK, it pivots at the bottom of the T, where the pivot point was originally, not where I moved it to.

So in a way I end up with two pivots:  One for the gizmo, and one for IK animation.  Ugh. 

True.  So true.  All these distractions prevent me from actually creating clip.  I still need to get much, much better at animating the characters.

But I got involved in a side project, and the bone rigging (especially IK animation of my custom prop) was baffling me.  I didn't think it would turn out to be so hard.

Well, that's the general idea.  At least that's why *I* bought iClone.

I tried an older version, got aggravated because I thought more things would be automatic.  The foot-sliding and other issues drove me up the wall, so I dropped it.  I thought v5 was promising so I decided to try again.

Sure, I could laboriously keyframe every joint for 30 frames per second, but that doesn't sound like fun.  I do too much keyframing the way it is.

Here is where I need to respectfully part ways with you.  I want to enjoy making simple little videos in order to TELL STORIES.

I don't want to have to learn how to stitch together many different applications:

• I'm learning iClone.
• I already use Avid Studio for NLE work.
• I've been learning GIMP and am starting to get good enough for what I want to do.
• My son likes to model in Blender
• I use 3DXchange to get the props into iClone, from both Blender and Sketchup warehouse.
• I've learned to appreciate and understand UV maps, and can texture and bump map my props.
• I've tried two or three different Normal Map Editors, with mixed success, and none that I want to spend a lot of money on (thought I sort of wish I bought B2M when it was introduced at 50% off, and I have to admit 3D Paint looks pretty cool).
• I had fun getting familiar with Sculptris, but surely haven't mastered it

At this point, I really don't want to learn another application just to help rig a prop if I can help it at all.  And I really, really don't want to spend more money on it.  What I really want to do is make my cheesy little video, like the Pinhead videos I used to make by keyframing 2D animations in my NLE tool.  That's really all I want to do (though I do enjoy making props, but I don't want to do it at the expense of telling stories.)

So, while I respect your suggestion to involve even more applications, I'm not going there at this time.  I'll work with iClone for now, and in doing so I will find, and learn to live with, its limitations as best I can.

sw00000p's taken 2 statements from different parts of my Post, combining them as if they were one statement. :unsure: 

Fortunately - sw00000p is unable to Edit my Post ;)

FWIW - I have no interest in Rigging or Skinning. If I did, I would learn how to ;) 

Good.  I'd rather see an update on Pinhead vs. the Red Baron.  :)

I'm glad some people have the technical skills to make things work, and as I mentioned I've been busy geeking out on props too much lately, but eventually the whole point of iClone is for someone to take all these underlying capabilities and produce a video for us to watch.

See Screenshot where Human IK Reach to Sub Node has duplicated all Sub Nodes in the Parent Prop. 

BTW - Inclusion of SKP Back Faces is deliberate.

Screenshot:

"Can't"?  What makes you say that?

How about, "Don't feel a need to do it the hardest, most labor-intensive way possible"?

Cryptic comments like "Twist this... turn that... you need to understand IK..." really don't help.  If you want to get down to it, know how IK works.  I even understand the math.  I've actually written (and programmed) the multi-dimensional matrix equations that make it work.  (Not for iClone, but I totally understand what lies beneath the surface.)

And does a chef really need to grow his own vegetables in order to know how to cook?

If I what I want to do cannot be done in iClone, simply say that in plain English.  "Hey Dude, you can't do that in iClone.  You need something like Max to do that."

Just like editing UV Maps.  I understand them.  I now know what I *can* do in iClone, and I also understand what I cannot do in iClone regarding UV Maps.  If anyone wants a clear explanation, just ask me and I'll share what I learned.

Now, back to props and bones...

I'd like my thread back, please. 

I believe I have found the edge of iClone capabilities in this matter.  I don't think it's an issue of not knowing how, I believe I simply found the limitation of what's currently available in the software.  So I posted in the "Wishful features" section (please keep it uncluttered).

If anyone has actual questions or input regarding THIS TOPIC, please write.  Otherwise, I suggest we open a new topic (maybe we can get it pinned to the top) for jabbing at each other.

An insight or observation perhaps.  An answer?  I don't know.  Not a solution, unless I'm missing something (in which case, please elaborate).

I think I summed it up recently, and it all comes down to where the endpoint of the sub-node's bone is located, and I don't appear to have any control over it.  Thus my new post in the Wishful Features section.

I'm glad you were able to extract something helpful from this thread.

Thank YOU for letting me (us) know.