Profile Picture

Some thoughts on Reallusion

Posted By dxmachina 4 Years Ago
Rated 5 stars based on 2 votes.
1
2

Author
Message
dxmachina
dxmachina
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 Years Ago
Posts: 9, Visits: 191
Hi guys -- this was included with my survey response. But since the survey isn't working for anyone yet, I thought I'd post these thoughts here:

First, let me say that I do like your products a lot. You have very clever and unique features, and definitely enable me to do things as a non-professional that would otherwise be beyond my reach. I also love that you have opened a marketplace for artists to make money using your products (note - I am not one of them, but just applaud the general idea).

That said, I absolutely despise your website, stores, and especially upgrade paths and promotions. Pricing in general is a giant disaster in my opinion. I respect that you're a business and do not expect anything for free... but the way you go about this leaves a very bad taste.

Some of this has to do with piecemeal features (which also greatly complicates workflow in many cases). But that's a minor problem in the grand scheme -- and it looks like you may be making some efforts to improve that. Bravo.

Upgrade paths are not clear pricing-wise, and in some cases feel excessive. Again, it's not that I don't think you deserve to charge for your major upgrades... but you make it difficult for your existing customers rather than easy. Your upgrade price as a percentage of new-purchase price is often insulting. 
In addition, since most of your best pricing comes through bundling, I find that my best price involves buying copies of things I already own. The coupons come and go too quickly, and real pricing is obtusely hidden in combinations of discounts, original MSRP, time sensitive promotions, etc.

Here's an example. I saw last month that you have iClone 8 and CC4 coming out. GREAT! I tried to find upgrade pricing on your site, but only found a lot of promotions for buying bundles that would come with the new versions. I already own the products in these bundles, so I wanted to see what the regular upgrade pricing would be. I could ONLY find that in a FAQ section, and even there it is unclear. However, it appears there is $100 price difference between new customer and upgrading from the last MAJOR versions? That in itself is insulting.

However, I then read in that same FAQ that you have a promotion for buying content and getting "free" upgrades... so I think, ok, I could probably spend $800 on content, get the new versions, and not feel like I'm being swindled or re-buying. But the promotion does not work, and when I email support they tell me the promotion is over (despite still being in that same FAQ with pricing).

Next, I get a 50% coupon from you via email because you end-of-lifed CrazyTalk Pipeline. I think, ok, I can swallow buying one of the bundles (which again, I own already) if I use the coupon. But of course, it's not 50% off the real store pricing, it is off the MSRP that is never actually charged. The coupon is ultimately worth very little -- and of course immediately expired.

So I went from (1) being willing to upgrade at a reasonable rate (didn't exist) to (2) being willing to spend $800 with you on content (promotion ended despite being on your site) to (3) now not wanting to upgrade at all.

I feel constantly devalued as an existing customer by Reallusion.  I've spent thousands with you guys... this isn't a good situation. 

Your website is also infuriating. Multiple stores, every page opening in a new window.

Look... sorry this seems so harsh. I just really do want to like you guys more... and you're making it difficult. I feel like I'm at a smarmy car dealership when I just want to pay a fair and transparent price and support you guys. I get it, my existing licenses are still valid... no one is forcing me to do anything. But is this the way you want to do business? Is this the relationship you want to have with loyal customers?

I'll crawl back under a rock now. Good luck with the new products. 
AutoDidact
AutoDidact
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 2.1K, Visits: 13.6K
Although I don't need any of the new features in Iclone 8 and won't be upgrading because I export characters to Blender and finish everything there.

I see Iclone  8  as effectively a new build of the core software not just an ornamental update to version 7.

So I do understand that Reallusion needs to recover the development costs With a higher price.


RAG DOLL COLLISION ANIMATIONS FOR ICLONE 8 & 7
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghost Origins
My latest Feature length film created with Iclone.
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/adf9b210-df59-4cb6-aa1b-9de5.jpg
My Sci- Fi Graphic Novel on Amazon: https://a.co/d/9k3cwoY


dxmachina
dxmachina
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)Senior Member (494 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 Years Ago
Posts: 9, Visits: 191
I may have to finally look into Blender myself and just stick with CC3. I say that sadly as I'd truly prefer to upgrade.

Honestly, the thing about the pricing isn't so much an issue with charging users for the upgrade (which is of course fair), but the price vs. new purchase and how that affects customer loyalty. New features cost time and money to develop undoubtedly. Rolling in 3DX obviously adds to the value. But for a customers with ic7 + 3dx what percentage of the ic8 would you estimate is "new?" That is roughly the value proposition I would put on the upgrade. I say all that as someone in the software business who has been on the other side of this fence.

I think the annoyance has just been building for a few years already and had to say my piece on it.  Not usually a rants-on-forums kind of guy. In any case, I'll crawl back under my rock now. :)

Cheers
animagic
animagic
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (33.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Month
Posts: 15.8K, Visits: 31.4K
I primarily use iClone and CC (but may be looking at Blender for rendering) and the update to the animation system alone, which was long overdue, makes it worth to me. 

I like it that RL has tried to address concerns of those who don't have a Mocap system to still create compelling animations. Animation is a core functionality and has now gotten an overhaul.

I do feel for those that find the upgrade expensive and I hope that RL will be able to address that somehow.


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/436b0ffd-1242-44d6-a876-d631.jpg

Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)Distinguished Member (37.8K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 9.2K, Visits: 22.1K
I think there are some legitimate concerns for folks who already have 3DX Pipeline, CC3 and iClone 7.  The upgrade price as it stands now is unreasonable.

They are "folding" 3DX into the other two products but at least as of yet we haven't seen much (if any) new functionality added to what used to be 3DX.  For example - if we bring custom characters into CC4 they can't use CC3/4 clothing or hair but will remain "separate".  If that continues to be true then there is zero value in having that functionality in CC4 (just an upgraded 3DX would have sufficed and, indeed, been a lot clearer).  As it is I see a TON of confusion that will result in what characters you have that can or can't do certain things in CC4/iClone.

And as it stands RIGHT NOW there is no additional functionality added in iClone 8 vis a vis 3DX - you can now already drag and drop FBX stuff in and it doesn't appear 8 will add needed functionality (like correctly assigning textures and/or optimizing such textures, something which is LONG overdue - it's so overdue that my Python script I wrote for it years ago is still needed).

I would have hoped that people who bought 3DX pipeline would, AT THE VERY LEAST, be given $200 off the combo price of CC4/iClone 8 IN ADDITION to any discount given to folks who already own 7 and CC3.  That would be appropriate in terms of the value and support of those folks.

All that said - we still don't know what discounts, if any, there will be upon release of these products.  So I remain hopeful RL will value their long-term people at the same time they recoup their development costs.  I don't mind paying a decent price for the new stuff, but I also don't want brand new users to have exactly the same price as I do (or even be slapped in the face with a $100 discount).



Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
planetstardragon
planetstardragon
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (24.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 11.5K, Visits: 46.0K
prolly my most controversial post yet!! :w00t:

after many years here at reallusion, i see 2 parts of reallusion...there are the architects..the artists, engineers and main talent of the product we all love so much....then there are those "other" guys :ermm:   but I've learned to respect and appreciate those "other" guys no matter how much they make me ...um force a smile ...because in todays market the good die young....and the sharks take all the food ....point being....those "other" guys,  keep the heart of iclone team and Reallusions products alive and not swallowed up by another shark corporation that seem to rule the world these days - they keep a talented staff paid and the lights on -  they do create a fair market in allowing us to sell merchandise....they do support and answer questions,  they do throw fun contests and are supportive of artists on their front page ...so they are trying.

In a business front,  they are ending 3DXchange -  which is a line of product - stream of income all it's own -  they are incorporating it to 1 product - it would be too great a loss to give up 1 stream of income to combine it with another for the same price -  further,  3DXchange was a costly software and that price has been cut down significantly in the new softwares ( although I do wonder if i'm buying 3dxchange 2x if i upgrade cc4 and ic8 )  which then amounts to same old price and having no choice but to buy 3Dx as part of the next upgrade.  a simple solution to this is to sell 3DX as an extension / upgrade / plugin or whatever other power word those "other" guys think works best - which would incidentally give users a chance to catch up on the new costs -  covid and inflation made life harder, so unless we are making money,  this hobby is expensive. TBH,  I would upgrade only after i got some paid gig to justify it.

So I'm not inclined to be angry and fight -  because I do want my iclone superstars to live well and get paid for their amazing work,  but I am inclined to consider negotiations with those "other" guys to come to an arrangement that benefits everyone equally.


☯🐉
"To define Tao is to defile it" - Lao Tzu

General Picture Animation
General Picture Animation
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)Distinguished Member (3.4K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 335, Visits: 6.6K
Kelleytoons (2/17/2022)
And as it stands RIGHT NOW there is no additional functionality added in iClone 8 vis a vis 3DX

Big deal/who cares.
Did you ever think that the higher price might be the price tag for delivering higher-quality results in animation in iClone 8?
Everybody is going to have to decide for themselves whether that's worth a few hundred bucks.
I already know the answer for me.



Animating now to life itself --Walt Whitman 
AutoDidact
AutoDidact
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 2.1K, Visits: 13.6K
Obviously the functionality of 3DX imbedded 
in iclone 8/ CC4  becomes 64 bit which will access ALL of your system RAM
and may address some of the problems with importing large complex 
content models/textures from external sources.


But that brings up the question of how well Iclone 8
has been optimized to handle larger sets/props compared to Iclone7.
So far I have seen nothing ,in the sneek peek videos, 
that would indicate major improvements in this area
but I could be wrong.



RAG DOLL COLLISION ANIMATIONS FOR ICLONE 8 & 7
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghost Origins
My latest Feature length film created with Iclone.
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/adf9b210-df59-4cb6-aa1b-9de5.jpg
My Sci- Fi Graphic Novel on Amazon: https://a.co/d/9k3cwoY


similarly
similarly
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)Distinguished Member (1.5K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 2 Years Ago
Posts: 84, Visits: 544
I've spent probably around $6,000 US on Reallusion products over the years.  I've used crazytalk animator since v1, iClone since v6, CC since the very beginning.  I'm currently using iC7+CC3+3dxchange (pipeline all around).  And I'm VERY happy with Reallusion products and very happy with the direction it's going ...

But I'm extremely disappointed that 3dxchange is now becoming part of iC8, and thus iC8 is becoming MUCH more expensive, but the fact I have 3dxchange pipeline for IC7 is apparently not going to be taken into consideration much at all in terms of upgrade price.  In fact, so far, despite complaints, the most RL seems willing to do is to offer me a plugin I neither want nor need nor have any use for at all.

Honestly, I'm disappointed in this enough that I probably will not upgrade and this will be the end of my relationship with RL, which is a shame for RL, because I've spent tons of money not just on software, but in the content store and marketplace as well, and now those developers will lose as well.

Reallusion used to make affordable software for hobbyists.  Now they want to be a tool for professionals, and I get it.  It's pride.  They'd much rather be able to say that they make first rate software that's used for AAA games and movies and animations than say they make a pretty good tool for amateurs and hobbyists.  However, those amateurs and hobbyists are the ones who bought the products and paid the money that funded RL to make this brand new professional tool, and now those tools are becoming too expensive for people just looking to play around.

As well, when CC1 was first introduced, it was AMAZING and FUN!  Now, there are SO many little sliders for everything that it's tedious!  Do we really need a hundred different sliders for noses?  Do we really need a slider for how big the little thing in the corner of the eye is?  How about just some simple tools to make characters quickly?

It's too bad, really, because the devs really are talented, and the work they're doing really is amazing.  Just too specific, too focused on one demographic, too expensive.  I feel like they've forgotten the loyal customers who made this possible.
AutoDidact
AutoDidact
Posted 4 Years Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)Distinguished Member (6.1K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Last Year
Posts: 2.1K, Visits: 13.6K
Not upgrading to version 8 , won't prevent you from making animated films with you current 7.9 versions.


RAG DOLL COLLISION ANIMATIONS FOR ICLONE 8 & 7
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghost Origins
My latest Feature length film created with Iclone.
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/adf9b210-df59-4cb6-aa1b-9de5.jpg
My Sci- Fi Graphic Novel on Amazon: https://a.co/d/9k3cwoY



1
2



Reading This Topic