|
By dxmachina - 4 Years Ago
|
Hi guys -- this was included with my survey response. But since the survey isn't working for anyone yet, I thought I'd post these thoughts here:
First, let me say that I do like your products a lot. You have very clever and unique features, and definitely enable me to do things as a non-professional that would otherwise be beyond my reach. I also love that you have opened a marketplace for artists to make money using your products (note - I am not one of them, but just applaud the general idea).
That said, I absolutely despise your website, stores, and especially upgrade paths and promotions. Pricing in general is a giant disaster in my opinion. I respect that you're a business and do not expect anything for free... but the way you go about this leaves a very bad taste.
Some of this has to do with piecemeal features (which also greatly complicates workflow in many cases). But that's a minor problem in the grand scheme -- and it looks like you may be making some efforts to improve that. Bravo.
Upgrade paths are not clear pricing-wise, and in some cases feel excessive. Again, it's not that I don't think you deserve to charge for your major upgrades... but you make it difficult for your existing customers rather than easy. Your upgrade price as a percentage of new-purchase price is often insulting. In addition, since most of your best pricing comes through bundling, I find that my best price involves buying copies of things I already own. The coupons come and go too quickly, and real pricing is obtusely hidden in combinations of discounts, original MSRP, time sensitive promotions, etc.
Here's an example. I saw last month that you have iClone 8 and CC4 coming out. GREAT! I tried to find upgrade pricing on your site, but only found a lot of promotions for buying bundles that would come with the new versions. I already own the products in these bundles, so I wanted to see what the regular upgrade pricing would be. I could ONLY find that in a FAQ section, and even there it is unclear. However, it appears there is $100 price difference between new customer and upgrading from the last MAJOR versions? That in itself is insulting.
However, I then read in that same FAQ that you have a promotion for buying content and getting "free" upgrades... so I think, ok, I could probably spend $800 on content, get the new versions, and not feel like I'm being swindled or re-buying. But the promotion does not work, and when I email support they tell me the promotion is over (despite still being in that same FAQ with pricing).
Next, I get a 50% coupon from you via email because you end-of-lifed CrazyTalk Pipeline. I think, ok, I can swallow buying one of the bundles (which again, I own already) if I use the coupon. But of course, it's not 50% off the real store pricing, it is off the MSRP that is never actually charged. The coupon is ultimately worth very little -- and of course immediately expired.
So I went from (1) being willing to upgrade at a reasonable rate (didn't exist) to (2) being willing to spend $800 with you on content (promotion ended despite being on your site) to (3) now not wanting to upgrade at all.
I feel constantly devalued as an existing customer by Reallusion. I've spent thousands with you guys... this isn't a good situation.
Your website is also infuriating. Multiple stores, every page opening in a new window.
Look... sorry this seems so harsh. I just really do want to like you guys more... and you're making it difficult. I feel like I'm at a smarmy car dealership when I just want to pay a fair and transparent price and support you guys. I get it, my existing licenses are still valid... no one is forcing me to do anything. But is this the way you want to do business? Is this the relationship you want to have with loyal customers?
I'll crawl back under a rock now. Good luck with the new products.
|
|
By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago
|
Although I don't need any of the new features in Iclone 8 and won't be upgrading because I export characters to Blender and finish everything there.
I see Iclone 8 as effectively a new build of the core software not just an ornamental update to version 7.
So I do understand that Reallusion needs to recover the development costs With a higher price.
|
|
By dxmachina - 4 Years Ago
|
I may have to finally look into Blender myself and just stick with CC3. I say that sadly as I'd truly prefer to upgrade.
Honestly, the thing about the pricing isn't so much an issue with charging users for the upgrade (which is of course fair), but the price vs. new purchase and how that affects customer loyalty. New features cost time and money to develop undoubtedly. Rolling in 3DX obviously adds to the value. But for a customers with ic7 + 3dx what percentage of the ic8 would you estimate is "new?" That is roughly the value proposition I would put on the upgrade. I say all that as someone in the software business who has been on the other side of this fence.
I think the annoyance has just been building for a few years already and had to say my piece on it. Not usually a rants-on-forums kind of guy. In any case, I'll crawl back under my rock now. :)
Cheers
|
|
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
|
I primarily use iClone and CC (but may be looking at Blender for rendering) and the update to the animation system alone, which was long overdue, makes it worth to me.
I like it that RL has tried to address concerns of those who don't have a Mocap system to still create compelling animations. Animation is a core functionality and has now gotten an overhaul.
I do feel for those that find the upgrade expensive and I hope that RL will be able to address that somehow.
|
|
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
|
I think there are some legitimate concerns for folks who already have 3DX Pipeline, CC3 and iClone 7. The upgrade price as it stands now is unreasonable.
They are "folding" 3DX into the other two products but at least as of yet we haven't seen much (if any) new functionality added to what used to be 3DX. For example - if we bring custom characters into CC4 they can't use CC3/4 clothing or hair but will remain "separate". If that continues to be true then there is zero value in having that functionality in CC4 (just an upgraded 3DX would have sufficed and, indeed, been a lot clearer). As it is I see a TON of confusion that will result in what characters you have that can or can't do certain things in CC4/iClone.
And as it stands RIGHT NOW there is no additional functionality added in iClone 8 vis a vis 3DX - you can now already drag and drop FBX stuff in and it doesn't appear 8 will add needed functionality (like correctly assigning textures and/or optimizing such textures, something which is LONG overdue - it's so overdue that my Python script I wrote for it years ago is still needed).
I would have hoped that people who bought 3DX pipeline would, AT THE VERY LEAST, be given $200 off the combo price of CC4/iClone 8 IN ADDITION to any discount given to folks who already own 7 and CC3. That would be appropriate in terms of the value and support of those folks.
All that said - we still don't know what discounts, if any, there will be upon release of these products. So I remain hopeful RL will value their long-term people at the same time they recoup their development costs. I don't mind paying a decent price for the new stuff, but I also don't want brand new users to have exactly the same price as I do (or even be slapped in the face with a $100 discount).
|
|
By planetstardragon - 4 Years Ago
|
prolly my most controversial post yet!! :w00t:
after many years here at reallusion, i see 2 parts of reallusion...there are the architects..the artists, engineers and main talent of the product we all love so much....then there are those "other" guys :ermm: but I've learned to respect and appreciate those "other" guys no matter how much they make me ...um force a smile ...because in todays market the good die young....and the sharks take all the food ....point being....those "other" guys, keep the heart of iclone team and Reallusions products alive and not swallowed up by another shark corporation that seem to rule the world these days - they keep a talented staff paid and the lights on - they do create a fair market in allowing us to sell merchandise....they do support and answer questions, they do throw fun contests and are supportive of artists on their front page ...so they are trying.
In a business front, they are ending 3DXchange - which is a line of product - stream of income all it's own - they are incorporating it to 1 product - it would be too great a loss to give up 1 stream of income to combine it with another for the same price - further, 3DXchange was a costly software and that price has been cut down significantly in the new softwares ( although I do wonder if i'm buying 3dxchange 2x if i upgrade cc4 and ic8 ) which then amounts to same old price and having no choice but to buy 3Dx as part of the next upgrade. a simple solution to this is to sell 3DX as an extension / upgrade / plugin or whatever other power word those "other" guys think works best - which would incidentally give users a chance to catch up on the new costs - covid and inflation made life harder, so unless we are making money, this hobby is expensive. TBH, I would upgrade only after i got some paid gig to justify it.
So I'm not inclined to be angry and fight - because I do want my iclone superstars to live well and get paid for their amazing work, but I am inclined to consider negotiations with those "other" guys to come to an arrangement that benefits everyone equally.
|
|
By General Picture Animation - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Kelleytoons (2/17/2022)
And as it stands RIGHT NOW there is no additional functionality added in iClone 8 vis a vis 3DX
Big deal/who cares.
Did you ever think that the higher price might be the price tag for delivering higher-quality results in animation in iClone 8?
Everybody is going to have to decide for themselves whether that's worth a few hundred bucks.
I already know the answer for me.
|
|
By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Obviously the functionality of 3DX imbedded in iclone 8/ CC4 becomes 64 bit which will access ALL of your system RAM and may address some of the problems with importing large complex content models/textures from external sources.
But that brings up the question of how well Iclone 8 has been optimized to handle larger sets/props compared to Iclone7. So far I have seen nothing ,in the sneek peek videos, that would indicate major improvements in this area but I could be wrong.
|
|
By similarly - 4 Years Ago
|
I've spent probably around $6,000 US on Reallusion products over the years. I've used crazytalk animator since v1, iClone since v6, CC since the very beginning. I'm currently using iC7+CC3+3dxchange (pipeline all around). And I'm VERY happy with Reallusion products and very happy with the direction it's going ...
But I'm extremely disappointed that 3dxchange is now becoming part of iC8, and thus iC8 is becoming MUCH more expensive, but the fact I have 3dxchange pipeline for IC7 is apparently not going to be taken into consideration much at all in terms of upgrade price. In fact, so far, despite complaints, the most RL seems willing to do is to offer me a plugin I neither want nor need nor have any use for at all.
Honestly, I'm disappointed in this enough that I probably will not upgrade and this will be the end of my relationship with RL, which is a shame for RL, because I've spent tons of money not just on software, but in the content store and marketplace as well, and now those developers will lose as well.
Reallusion used to make affordable software for hobbyists. Now they want to be a tool for professionals, and I get it. It's pride. They'd much rather be able to say that they make first rate software that's used for AAA games and movies and animations than say they make a pretty good tool for amateurs and hobbyists. However, those amateurs and hobbyists are the ones who bought the products and paid the money that funded RL to make this brand new professional tool, and now those tools are becoming too expensive for people just looking to play around.
As well, when CC1 was first introduced, it was AMAZING and FUN! Now, there are SO many little sliders for everything that it's tedious! Do we really need a hundred different sliders for noses? Do we really need a slider for how big the little thing in the corner of the eye is? How about just some simple tools to make characters quickly?
It's too bad, really, because the devs really are talented, and the work they're doing really is amazing. Just too specific, too focused on one demographic, too expensive. I feel like they've forgotten the loyal customers who made this possible.
|
|
By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Not upgrading to version 8 , won't prevent you from making animated films with you current 7.9 versions.
|
|
By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Thank you all for the feedback. As always this will be passed on for review and consideration.
|
|
By cepheistudios - 4 Years Ago
|
|
I wanted to weigh in to this conversation. I’ve been using Character Creator for almost a full year. And before I wade into criticizing Reallusion, I am probably their biggest fan. I own my own animation company, so I have an animator, a modeler, a storyboarder, etc – but before any of that I needed to visualize my characters. CC3 has been priceless as an asset in that regard. A lot of my characters are semi-realistic – which is just a fancy way of saying they don’t quite look human but nor are they cartoonish. Some of their features are exaggerated, some of them are hyper-muscular – like the comic book characters Jim Lee or Whilce Portracio or Dale Keown would draw. CC3 helped me make characters like that so people had an idea of what I was talking about. It also helps the concept artist make improvements, and then the modeler can do his thing. What’s key about this is I have NO SKILL as an artist. At all. Without CC3 it’s back to long emails and Pinterest boards. It also helps me stay inspired because I can visualize what my ideas look. I also want to praise the fantastic community. The Reallusion Forum is a great resource and MOST of my issues get solved by people on the Forum. Now, I don’t want to burst any bubbles here and this will probably be an unpopular take, but I’m putting it out there. Character Creator and Iclone aren’t playing on the same level as Unreal Engine, Unity, Maya or Blender. I think they’re great for hobbyists, but as my modeler explained to me in great detail – none of the models made in CC will be used in our animation – especially since we’re trying to create a big studio look. And when I connected to wider community of professionals who had experience in animation and modeling, they all use Blender, and UE and whole host of other programs that I have nowhere near the skill level to use – which is fine. That’s why I pay people to do that stuff – I simply can’t do it. I spent about $5000 on Character Creator and the plugins and all the content, learning things as I went. When I looked at Iclone, frankly, the animation looked clunky to me. And I’m not convinced their mocap stuff is seamless. On top of all that they simply can’t offer all the stuff UE has when it comes to environments with respect to variety or quality. There’s no value in me buying Iclone. What’s more, as I said on another thread, Character Creator 3 does have some clunkiness to it. The Iray plugin isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s good and I like it, but it isn’t easy to use at all. Headshot wasn’t all it was billed to be either. If you go in expecting to get exactly the same face as the photo you’re using, you will be disappointed. Character Creator stuff is expensive as well. I do side with several people on the forum where I think they should reward existing customers more. The upgrade from CC3 to CC4 shouldn’t be as expensive. And I think if you’ve been around since CC first iteration maybe it should be free. Like, seriously, this community is SMALL. Some of the people in here are really dedicated and they should be rewarded. They shouldn’t have to spend X amount of dollars every year to get 40% off. Now, I’m still riding with Character Creator because I don’t expect them to rival UE or Blender. They’re playing in the same pool as Daz3d – and that’s cool. There’s so much I can do with Character Creator. And I know there are people on the forum who put in the time and do amazing things with Iclone, but I would contend if they put that same time in with UE (at least the people doing animation) then it would go much further. Ditto with Blender – it’s just that Blender’s learning curve is much steeper. I tried Blender and I was making a LITTLE progress, but I needed to get further faster and CC3 was the answer I needed. And it continues to be.
|
|
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Not just for hobbyists (I hate that word) but also very useful for solo director/animators. And I doubt whether Unreal or Blender on their own would get me much further.
|
|
By sonic7 - 4 Years Ago
|
I won't be able to afford the upgrade unfortunately. I came on board with iClone 7 and have spent just shy of $2K in all. I'm hoping to make iClone 7 worthwhile by completing a 'film project' by around 2025/2026. I also use DaVinci Resolve/Fusion (studio) which I like because the purchase was "for life" - which is great! I've actually moved towards 'live actors' rather than avatars for better believability, though I'm using iClone for the 'droids' and I'm favoring iClone for compositing live action (camera solved) footage with IC sets. Either that or I'll use Resolve/Fusion, it depends whether I can get a smooth 24fps out of iclone when exporting. Yeah its sad I came in on IC7 - I get the impression it's just harder for a novice than IC8 will be? - Not sure. Sounds like IC8 will be like I'd imagined IC7 would be when I first purchased (ease of use wise). But then it always looks way better in the promos. Also, I'm painfully slow at picking things up I fear. Plus I'm a perfectionist to boot. Not a good combination for high efficiency throughput - lol.
|
|
By ApplebiteMedia - 4 Years Ago
|
My .02.....
I started my adventure in animation with this software. I don't really know others to make comparisons. I like the ease of use for the basic stuff. But as other have mentioned, some of the custom work that may need to be done to certain items can be a bit overwhelming to those new to all of this. I love creating characters with CC3!!! As for iClone, I do like that it assists with the animation.... or maybe I should say preset animations that we can modify. It is a real time saver IMO. I have been working with this software for a little over a year and will more than likely stay with it until the go rental like everyone else.
Is this software cheap? It reasonable in the long run. I spent around 5500.00 my 1st year collecting all of the software and plugins I wanted or needed along with a lot of content as I cannot create my own. For a hobby, a little high. For me I am looking to expand my services offered to my customers. The learning has need slow and slower now as covid has put me back to working for someone else atm. I earned enough points in the year end contest to get CC4 free, and I will most likely upgrade to iClone 8, when will be determined by the new cost. It took nearly 9 months to get 3D exchange at a price I could afford. I think at one point it was listing for 599.00, I got one for 249.00 on sale. Of course that could be because they were incorporating it into iClone and were trying to make more sales before gone.
I have recently discovered and have been putting a little more effort into learning Blender lately. Once you get past all the confusion in the menus and buttons, it's not really that hard. I have picked up some basics, with the help of some plugins, and it has helped in my learning of the software. So when we talk expenses... Sure, Reallusion charges for their produce, Blender is free... but I have so far, spent around 250.00 for plugins for that free program. Everything costs if you want convenience. To compare the software though is comparing apples to oranges. IMO, Reallusion software is more a tool to speed up your animated projects and not really a creation software like Blender. Sure, you can make modifications with Reallusion and maybe put some scenes together, but no where near the power to create like Blender. On the flip side, my ignorance of Blender still scares me venturing forth to anything further than creating props/scenes. There seems to be so much to characters with bones, eyes, mouth.... I am not there yet. I will be happy to be able to make good items for my animations without having to depend on "what is available". Truly custom. :D I still have clothing and hair to learn as well as texturing LOL.
Anyway, upgrading is really based on the individual and their needs. Personally I can stay with 7 and have it good enough for what I am doing. But will upgrade, the promo looked good and there are some new features that may be useful for me. IDK, when it comes out I will decide. But since I will be getting CC4, iClone 8 seems necessary unless I plan on using these characters elsewhere. I really hope they keep the price reasonable or maybe just lower for existing owners. Hell, only things left for me to purchase here are the mocap and unreal plugins LMAO!. (oh and crazytalk, seems CTA4 has all that function so I returned it)
|
|
By LarryPlane - 4 Years Ago
|
A very interesting thread.
I'm leaning on the side of those who believe that folding the functionality of 3DFX into iClone does not offer enough benefits to justify the increased costs.
Which is a damn shame because v8 looks to be pretty much what we were promised in v7, which never really lived up to the promo videos, which themselves failed to mention that facecaping a character would require some very expensive plugins.
It makes me.wonder how many features in v8 will need additional and highly expensive plugins. Add to that the eye watering upgrade cost for those of us who shelled out for pipeline last time around and it all begins to look like a Sit Back and Wait situation.
|
|
By michaelrbarton - 4 Years Ago
|
I can't afford IC8, but I am saving up for CC4. The price on CC4 will be $249 for members, which is only $50 more than CC3 Pipeline was.
At least I will get my foot in the door with CC4. I am not going to fret, CC4 is my best bet yet. I'm all set. I guess I'm getting carried away
with what I have to say. I can't wait no more for CC4.
|
|
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
|
|
michaelrbarton (4/8/2022)
I can't afford IC8, but I am saving up for CC4. The price on CC4 will be $249 for members, which is only $50 more than CC3 Pipeline was.
At least I will get my foot in the door with CC4. I am not going to fret, CC4 is my best bet yet. I'm all set. I guess I'm getting carried away
with what I have to say. I can't wait no more for CC4.
Unless you will be exporting your characters to use in other animation software, you will need iClone 8.
|
|
By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago
|
Unreal Engine plugins are free for individual users.
I spent a lot of money on the upgrade and it's really big money for me.
If the prices are like this when the CC5 and iC9 come out, I probably won't upgrade.
But there is an undeniable difference between CC4 and iC8 and previous versions.
So it seems important to have them.
|
|