Hi folks,

I'm trying to ease my way in to 3D editing.  I would just buy iClone and proceed (because I LOVE CrazyTalk!) but iClone is not available for the Mac (except via Bootcamp) so that complicates the decision of where to start.

I'm hoping you can correct any misunderstandings I may have about the differences between DAZ and iClone. Thanks!

My sole interest is in animating characters.

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PRICING:  So far it appears to this nube that while DAZ is free software, you can't do a whole lot with it without making content purchases from the DAZ store.   On the other hand iClone is $200, but it seems the included Character Creator means I wouldn't necessarily need to buy any character content for quite awhile, if ever.    Is this a generally correct understanding?

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EASE OF USE:   I'm experimenting with DAZ software now.  It's not going too well.  Any ease of use comparison between iClone and DAZ for character animation would be most appreciated. 

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I'm very involved with 2D video editing, and am trying to determine whether I want to invest time in 3D as well.  I would just buy iClone and dive in to find out, but the need for me (a Mac user) to install Bootcamp, buy Windows, install Windows, and learn Windows is a lot of obstacles to leap over just to find out whether I'd enjoy 3D.  Not a complaint, just where things stand here.

Thanks for any advice you'd care to share!

Okay, the SIMPLE version of this (it can get a LOT more complicated):

iClone is the premiere 3D character animation program.  Period.  If your interest is in making character animations you can just stop right there and do whatever you need to do to run it (but my advice would be to buy a PC.  Honestly.  And I love Apple hardware).

If you want to make other kinds of animations there are other things you can do and software you can run on your Mac, some free, some not so free.

Daz is for stills.  Period.  (Again, this is a LOT more complicated, but in general that's the idea).  But there is a shitload of content available for it and the purchase price for such content is generally a lot less than similar or lesser content for iClone.

CC3 is a pretty good program but you can't create clothing or props with it.  CC3 Pipeline is the best bet, because then you can import free clothing from around the web AND (most importantly) clothing and people from Daz (who make a lot more available).  It's the best of all possible worlds.

I would not recommend trying to run Bootcamp and iClone.  For one thing, you really need the best GPU for iClone (an nVidia RTX or GTX card -- get no other) and if you don't have one you're just better off buying a PC with one included.  For another I'm not so sure the interaction of such a card in your Mac running Bootcamp and then iClone... just wouldn't go there.

If it makes you feel any better, my best buddy (a LONG time Mac guy) called me just last night and said he's going entirely PC (I'm his computer guru as I do both Mac and PC and I've been entirely neutral where he is concerned).  There's nothing wrong with getting the right hardware to run the right software, which is why I have a Macbook Air AND a lot of PCs.  But if you are someone who won't even consider it I'd look elsewhere (BTW, the really good news is that Mac OS and Windows have grown together so much it's getting hard to tell one from another).

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Wow Kelleytoons, thank you for such an excellent and informative reply.  Much appreciated. 



Ok, I hear you, I'm not even qualified to follow the more complicated version of this story anyway, so simple is good.



This is my instinct as well, built not from 3D experience, but my passionate love of CrazyTalk.  The more I use it, the more I like it, so I'm naturally drawn to anything else from RealIllusion. 



Not what I want to hear, but I have no trouble believing that you are correct.  To reply honestly in return, buying a PC is simply too much work and cost just to find out if I would enjoy 3D editing.  Oh well...

I'm already deeply engaged in 2D video editing (Hitfilm and CrazyTalk mostly) so it seems I should just be happy where I am and wait patiently for an accessible Mac app to make casual exploration of 3D possible.   I don't blame RealIllusion for not making a Mac version of iClone, if I was them I wouldn't either.



I've been experimenting with this a bit for a couple years, but so far I've not found anything that seems worth the bother.



Didn't know this, thanks. 

How might you compare the image quality of DAZ vs. iClone content?  Subjective of course, but your opinion would be read with interest here.



Again, I am a 3D nube, to put it generously, but so far I've found trying to transfer almost any 3D content from one realm to another to be a huge waste of time.  The transfer fails 95% of the time, and I have no idea how to fix the problems.  I did invest a few months with Cheetah (Mac 3D editor) and their forum was very helpful, but the solutions they offered were absurdly complex.  I concluded from this, rightly or wrongly, that I should wait for the 3D industry to mature some more.  That was a few years ago, not sure much has changed...



Part of me wants to argue, but I know you're right about this.  If there was a free version of iClone I might give it a try, but, probably best to just walk away. 



I do have Windows installed virtually and have learned very basic usage, but....

For me the equation is that all the obstacles put together are just too much to warrant exploring 3D just to see if I'd like it.   If I was already fully committed to 3D the equation would be different.

You've basically helped me resolve my predicament in a single post, bravo, and many thanks.   So I'll be spending a lot more time with CrazyTalk it seems, a good outcome.

I agree whole heartedly with KT here.  I will add this phrase:
Time is $.  While you will be able to animate in Daz, and while iClone and CC3 can for sure eat all of your time, on a production timeline, you will work much faster and cost-effective with RL's products vs trying to get it done in Daz. 

You could install a TRIAL version (which needs to be uninstalled, not simply unlocked, when you buy the product).

Reallusion does honor their 14-day return policy, but given your hardware situation I'd recommend the trial version first.

Good luck.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
Laptop - Windows 10, MSI GS63VR STEALTH-252, 16GB RAM, GTX 1060 (6GB), 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD

Let me add one more thing -- animation, like almost any talent or art that you do in life, is something you continue to reach higher and higher as you do it.  For now Crazytalk suits you (and that's how I started with RL as well).  You will want more.  Trust me, you will indeed.  You can try Crazy Talk Animator (although I would recommend Moho but that's a whole other story) and that may suit you as well for a while.  Eventually you will want to try 3D, I think.

When you are ready, you will be amazed.  2D animation is pretty wonderful, but the improvements and things you can now do in 3D make it extraordinary.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

RAG DOLL COLLISION ANIMATIONS FOR ICLONE 8 & 7
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Ghost Origins

My latest Feature length film created with Iclone.
93% of original size (was 540x16) - Click to enlarge

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@phil_78
May as well jump in here as well...very much related to what you stated above.
I have heavily tested CC2 and CC3 (which I actually like CC2 better) and iClone7 (and iClone5 before that...was not ready really) and will say that iClone7 is very much the best of the best animation software suite. Especially when it comes to getting animation re-targeted and fix and clean and whatever animations. The idea is to get animations on a standardized skeleton which can be accomplished a few different ways.

I did exactly this iClone-DAZ thing because I needed HD1080p rendering for my Visual Book Series (think Total Recall in concept) and very few character systems are capable of that type of detail and still get Real Time Rendering at 60 fps. DAZ takes 1st place here...but...takes awhile to figure out how to use the bloated meshes and textures and materials to not melt the GPU. Lots of study. CC2 and CC3 were to replace DAZ but the issue is the Body Shaping Morphs do not export but the facial expression morphs do...so Reallusion purposely are not exporting the body base blendshapes so we can do some body shaping and recipe magic in our Real Time Rendering engine (ie UE4 and Unity..etc). So DAZ is it.....but which generation? I stuck with G2 (Human, Elf) and G1 (for creatures and unique characters) with V5/M5 UV sets. LOD0 is 32k in almost all cases.

Whether you use DAZ or CC2 or CC3 depends a lot on what you need to do on the very back end of the process and work in reverse from there. What you end up with is what you will have to work through which will create your workflow(s) necessary to 'Get It Done'. So I would sit down with a couple of drinks and sketch it out on paper then sketch it out again on another page making mods and and notes...then sleep on it...then sketch it out one more time for a good final. Then make a To Do List from that and start working on it.

In regards to animation...our team just solved this (see forum post There and Back Again....) and this process has a lot of gotchas but is very doable. I can say with certainty that iClone7 with 3DXChange7 Pipeline is the best way to do it. There are those that will argue Maya and 3DSMax/Motionbuilder can do it...and they would be correct. Akeytsu is also getting much closer but still needs the Targeting Module (coming in mid-2019). iKinema Webanimate (Stand Alone Version) does a great job at re-targeting but it is not an intuitive software and the vids/manuals are difficult to follow. And you still have to have a software to do great animation. The cream rises to the top....iClone7 is the answer here.

So if you want to do animation then you should really get the Pipeline versions....just swallow the Blue Pill and get it over with. Also get the iClone7 plugin Curve Editor because it is amazing (Akeytsu has this but not quite as good). Also get yourself a stout PC and get all your stuff installed there. Get it working and use TeamViewer to remotely connect and use that computer if/when you travel. Just install TeamViewer for Personal Use since it free (you can also use TeamViewer Quick Support as well since it like an app...no install...but when the computer restarts like Windows 10 likes to do that app will need to be restarted and the random password will change).

The stout PC does not require enormous coin either. Some of the peeps on these forums are running some spendy rigs. I use UE4 mainly for my rendering engine and I can verify that a Ryzan 5 1600 and nVidia GTX1060 6gb with 16gb of ram is more than enough to run at 60 fps in some really dense scenery. If speedy iRay/Octane renders is your choice....that is for stills and not real time animation...so kind of a different topic.

Some great advice here from some of the best peeps around.

Good luck.

I am interested in that, but it seems not interested enough to pay the significant price tag involved.  

However, given that I already have DAZ installed, perhaps I'll fiddle around with their animation interface from time to time just to keep my toe in the water.  I'm sure the 3D market will come to me over time, given that there are far more nubes like me than experienced experts like you guys.  People like me are the real opportunity for 3D developers.

Honestly, iClone IS the market for folks like yourself -- folks more experienced will use software like Maya and Max (or even Blender).

It's only not your market due to your platform (which really isn't the platform for 3D animation, unless you want to pay BIG bucks).  And as much as I like Apple hardware, it just isn't a big enough market for a developer like RL to worry about (too niche).

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley