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NetFlix Requirements

Posted By wildstar 8 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime
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illusionLAB (6/13/2018)
"let's go with the idea that you need 16 bit to eliminate banding"
It's not an idea it's a fact.  There are, however, ways to minimize 'banding'... like adding noise or dithering - usually "a process" when creating the rendered file.

The effects that produce the most banding in iClone are essentially 'real time' post effects, so I suspect they are calculated as 8 bit to maintain 'real time' performance (they could actually be hardware provided from the graphics card... so there's nothing RL could do to change it).  If they were calculated at 16 bit during final render it would pretty much solve the issue (at the expense of render time).  The upcoming addition of iRay rendering will improve things, as it's 32 bit it should substitute iC glows, lighting etc. with it's own (converted, like indigo did).  I amended my guess at iClone's architecture to 32 bit as it does handle HDR - but, just because the environment is 32 bit does not mean all the calculations are made at 32 bit... this is probably true of all the game engines, as they wouldn't possibly be able to offer real time.  It's common practice to dynamically assign bit depths 'where they're needed' - you can get away with 8 bit for most things... like texture maps.

Also, it's absolutely possible to see 'banding' on 16 or 32 bit images... like I said before 'most' computer displays are 8 bit (the higher quality the better the 'interpolation').  My setup is optimized for colour grading, so I've splurged for a 10 bit (30bitRGB) monitor... driven by a 10 bit Quadro card.  All 'gaming' cards, like 1080s, are 8 bit.  My theory is iClone actually uses the images generated by the graphics card for renders... which would ultimately mean the PBR renderer in iClone will never produce a 16 bit image.  Again, this is why iRay (or other 3rd party 'non real time' renderer) will be the only option for 16 or 32 bit depth images.


Interesting.  How come a 3xSS render from iClone taking 6 seconds to render at UHD not eliminate the banding. 
It's just an up and down-scaled 8-bit image?...

Remembering those introductory iClone 7 tutorials, Stuckon3D had never discussed THIS stuff with Kai in the tutorials when they spoke about the realtime PBR workflow. 
You never heard them say, "Oh, by the way, for those of you looking for 16-bit output with no banding from the bloom, this is not going to give you that performance yet..."
So, either they didn't know, despite all the background in lighting and 3D, etc, in which case us users are more observant and interested in the subject of image output.
Or, they just figured, "Why bother explaining it, let's not explain in detail and hope nobody cares or notices." 
yoyomaster
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Banding has nothing to do with scaling up then down, it had to do with color depth, an 8 bits images(16 million colors) just doesn't have enough colors depth to totally prevent banding, while 16 bits images(68 billion colors) do!
TonyDPrime
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In Octane Render, when you render with Bloom Post Processing effect, the render completes, and then you can save the image in a format.  But the image saving part isn't really what slows down the rendering part, as far as the GPU is concerned.  As in, Octane's render engine isn't held up by completed image output time.  It processes rendering of textures and lighting, then saves the 16bit PNG image, even a UHD one, quite instantly. 
So in iClone, actually, if we did have 16 Bit, we may not have a noticeably slower rendering time after all...I'm not saying it would be, in mathematical absolute terms, as fast as an 8-bit render, but it may be an inconsequential speed difference. 

Okay, so wait, would Netflix accept a 16 bit, or they need 32 bit. 
We have to tell RL to give us whatever Netflix requires, or has someone done this?  
yoyomaster
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Heheh, 32 bits is a bit much, these are only used in stuff like vector displacement maps and the such, and they are huge files, I mean huge, I have 32 bits OpenEXR here that are over 800 mb each!
TonyDPrime
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Okay, 16-bit it is!!!  :smooooth:



TonyDPrime
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And what is the deal with the TGA file format, still gives banding.  Is that higher bit depth, or is it just an 8-bit 'image' packaged in a higher bit depth format?
(which we do not want, as I understand now we want the rendered image's origin to be at least 16-bit, as far as this discussion goes.)
yoyomaster
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I dont think TGA supports 16 bits, at least it doesn't in Photoshop!
illusionLAB
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TGA max bit depth is 8.  I presume it's presence in iClone is for an "uncompressed" still format with PNG being the "compressed" format.

I just did a couple of tests that confirm that iClone's PBR renders are indeed 'frame grabs' of the display output.  Remember the discovery of making the 'window' smaller and larger for different quality of DOF?  Well the same holds true for the other "post process" effects... the HDR glows etc.  Changing the size of the viewport is effectively telling the GPU to 'change gears' on the "post process" effects, so if a render is different depending on the size of the viewport - it goes without saying that the render is basically a screen grab of the GPUs output.  Although, theoretically, nvidia GPUs have 10 bit architecture... it's only really available in their Quadro cards - got to have some reason for charging twice as much! (also, the software driving the Quadro card has to be written to support 10 bit - Photoshop and DaVinci Resolve are two that do).

So, there you are... iClone's 'realtime PBR' render is limited to 8 bit.  iRay, or other 3rd party renderers will be, in theory, the only way to create 16 and 32 bit depth renders with iClone.
yoyomaster
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I just checked, Blender Eevee can export 32bits OpenEXR, damn!
I read a bit more on the Netflix guidelines, they seem to be just that, guidelines, I doubt they would refuse a movie based on the fact that it is not 16 bits!
wildstar
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unity, unreal , eevee, all this engines export with 32 bit color space.  and just to rememember 
unity and unreal use TAA in realtime,at any resolution you can render in 8k if you want with 32 bit color space. and is not secs per frame. its frames per sec so how much more fast its your Hard drive more fast is the render. 
eevee use the old metod of supersampling , the same used in toolbag and iclone ( toolbag still better and fast than iclone ) supersampling is cpu based and slow. TAA is GPU based and realtime. 
this discution ends for me 2 months back. i just dont use iclone for render .. final point! *for me. but i use iclone for all other stuff like facial and body anymations
all things not related for characters i animate inside unity. and cameras animation i got a new love. cinemachine .

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