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How to bring sparkle to a character's eyes?

Posted By argus1000 6 Years Ago
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GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
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argus1000 (1/26/2018)
Hello,
I find it difficult to make a character's eyes sparkle like in the pic. I'm not talking about adding a map to the glow channel (that would only make the WHOLE eyes glow). Adding a reflection map to the reflection channel doesn't seem to work either, not with PBR anyway. It seems adding an extra spotlight on the eyes seems to work somewhat.  That, and adding B2M on the eyes, I seem to get a mediocre result by playing with the roughness settings, but not enough.
../..
There must be a way just to make the eyes really shine. Thanks.


Those sparkles are the result of the specular reflection of the lights/sun so you just have to position those properly. Having sparkles does not always work though and adding artificial sparkles sometimes make things worst. The true question is how to give life to the eyes (and this is the Graal of 3d animation).  

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/02498ad2-ac5c-4dbb-84fa-5df4.jpg

Here there is no spark in his eyes but there is life.

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

Kelleytoons
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I've been around and around on this -- started a topic nearly a year ago about it and never got a completely satisfactory answer (but it's better).

As others have noted, you need to work on the eyes material, but they still, in general, don't behave nearly as well as eyes do either in Real Life or even in other products (look at Daz renders to see).  Partly that's the render engine -- I do think it's why we can't get the really SHINY chrome stuff, for example.  And I do think part of it is the way the eyes are constructed (why in heavens name do we need two separate layers UNLESS there is some kind of interaction between them that I can't figure out how to make happen).

But the advice here is all good and you can keep at it.  I also find, in many cases, it's better to use traditional materials for the eyes and eyes only, and skip PBR (which just doesn't seem to work well for eyes, or at least the way I have the rest of the lighting in my scene).  Using traditional materials and putting in a reflection map just sometimes is far better.



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Kelleytoons (1/27/2018)
I've been around and around on this -- started a topic nearly a year ago about it and never got a completely satisfactory answer (but it's better).

As others have noted, you need to work on the eyes material, but they still, in general, don't behave nearly as well as eyes do either in Real Life or even in other products (look at Daz renders to see).  Partly that's the render engine -- I do think it's why we can't get the really SHINY chrome stuff, for example.  And I do think part of it is the way the eyes are constructed (why in heavens name do we need two separate layers UNLESS there is some kind of interaction between them that I can't figure out how to make happen).

But the advice here is all good and you can keep at it.  I also find, in many cases, it's better to use traditional materials for the eyes and eyes only, and skip PBR (which just doesn't seem to work well for eyes, or at least the way I have the rest of the lighting in my scene).  Using traditional materials and putting in a reflection map just sometimes is far better.


I'm not sure which eyes you are using but I found the CC PBR Eyes (from iClone content, not from CC paradoxically!) working quite well - granted you set the Cornea Opacity to 100%:

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/c9ad3930-b5ec-4893-a2b2-1ee6.jpg

(this is straight from iClone, no grading)

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"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

argus1000
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grabiller (1/27/2018)
Here there is no spark in his eyes but there is life.


I'm sure that character's face is expressive and it's got a lot of life in it, but his eyes, IMO, would gain a lot if there was a sparkle in it. They would profit by being illuminated more, for one thing.



My latest movie THE GOLDEN MAN, and a few othershttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIl1EqVCKitZzLqaNnLK0BA
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argus1000 (1/27/2018)
grabiller (1/27/2018)
Here there is no spark in his eyes but there is life.

I'm sure that character's face is expressive and it's got a lot of life in it, but his eyes, IMO, would gain a lot if there was a sparkle in it. They would profit by being illuminated more, for one thing.

That's arguable and purely subjective. In the context of the movies, at the beginning, all replicants have sparkles/red eyes even in very dark situation, but here in this scene those eyes are as dark as his coming death, and it is probably on purpose. Of course we can debate about this during hours ;)

My point was that the quest of the eyes sparkles *at all cost because this is what eyes are supposed to have no matter what* may be not the right quest when it comes to give life or soul to a figure look/eyes. I would say that correct shadows are even more important.

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justaviking
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grabiller (1/27/2018)
argus1000 (1/27/2018)
grabiller (1/27/2018)
Here there is no spark in his eyes but there is life.

I'm sure that character's face is expressive and it's got a lot of life in it, but his eyes, IMO, would gain a lot if there was a sparkle in it. They would profit by being illuminated more, for one thing.

That's arguable and purely subjective. In the context of the movies, at the beginning, all replicants have sparkles/red eyes even in very dark situation, but here in this scene those eyes are as dark as his coming death, and it is probably on purpose. Of course we can debate about this during hours ;)

My point was that the quest of the eyes sparkles *at all cost because this is what eyes are supposed to have no matter what* may be not the right quest when it comes to give life or soul to a figure look/eyes. I would say that correct shadows are even more important.


Great discussion.

When I first saw the picture Guy posted, my immediate thought was about how much the facial expression also adds to the life of the character.  If you have diffuse lighting, maybe it's foggy outside, you won't get much if any sparkle and reflection, but Guy's example certainly shows the character can still have life and energy and sparkle in the personality.

Not to downplay the value of a sparkle or twinkle, to which I think a good point or spot light is a key contributor, but it's not an absolute necessity in all situations.



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argus1000
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After many, many trials and errors, I agree with Kellytoons.  I've come to the conclusion that I prefer the traditional method as far as the eyes sparkle are concerned. Here, I have fluorescent lighting on the ceiling plus a spotlight on the head for the two examples. I set the cornea settings accordingly. Because of the reflection map, I may have more control in the traditional method. Pic 1 is the traditional method, pic 2 is the PBR method.

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/ec24c7b2-cb22-4f04-b9e9-d0a8.png


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/e2bdc1b1-7998-4b43-8119-95f7.png

Of course, there is no right or wrong. A lot of it depends of how the set is lit and on how each individual adjusts his settings (sRGB, opacity, self-illumination, etc).

My latest movie THE GOLDEN MAN, and a few othershttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIl1EqVCKitZzLqaNnLK0BA
Kelleytoons
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Yeah, Argus pretty well summed it up (as well as provided examples -- thanks.  I was just TOO dogged tired after tennis and needed my nap :>).

With the aforementioned CC PBR eyes (in iClone) you get a TINY little reflection.  I've never seen (or been able) to get anything larger, unless I just go WAY overboard on the lighting (and it shouldn't be that difficult, particularly with how well GI lighting works in general).  So reflection maps always seem to be able to get that "spread" which is needed.  In traditional filmmaking they use special lights just for the eyes, although this doesn't seem to work at all well in iClone (for one thing there's no way to then control the effect on everything else -- we kind of need a "light exclusion" property on objects).  That's how they get those nice, big highlights.  iClone gets this teeny tiny pinpoint which just doesn't do it.

It is funny, though -- this discussion mirrors almost exactly my original topic about a year ago (and we ended up at the same place, which kind of tells me nothing much has changed with iClone in 7.2 versus 7 vis a vis eye catchlights).



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@Kelleytoons
I think I understand what you mean.

If you compare just the eyes with my previous image, is it what you are after ?:

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/cdf3a9f9-fc00-4519-a697-490c.jpg


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Kelleytoons
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Well, it's a bit better, but still far off from the "classic" catchlights in someone's eyes.  Again, in Real Life they would often use a softbox or just dedicated lights aimed at the actor's face (which were then overpowered on the rest of the face by the set lighting).  In "traditional" 3D (at least my background) we'd use a light that was only seen by the eyes (like a donut emitting shape).  We can't do that in iClone.

So reflection maps are the next best thing, far from perfect, but at least allowing us that light which, to be fair, is pretty artificial (but we are kind of conditioned into seeing it in movies and television).



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