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Biosphere Crisis & Fog Failing.

Posted By DELETED2 13 Years Ago
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DELETED2
DELETED2
Posted 13 Years Ago
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(Video Uploading Currently.)

SOLUTION REQUIRED.

Biosphere has a gutteral failing. almost 800 plants and you cannot CANNOT use them long range. Actually, any range at all.

They seem to flicker in and out of view, flicker side to side as if transitioning, and lose all detail and transform into a flat "Block" of leaves as if a graphic has been spliced into the middle of the tree and these effects vary and intermittently flicker in and out of every tree.

I've stripped the set right down. Taken out the fences, wells, cattle, animals, birds, people, carts, horses, ground plants, and all the multitude of props I built for this set so we have trees and houses.

In summary, it is NOT a memory error. Also the error takes place on two different machines two operating systems.

(ABOVE) The tree singled out is the loudest example at this range. In a while I'll post a demo video of this stripped out set and you can see the peculiarity of these trees.

Here the tree has started to appear "Noise " style. Others in the back ground flicker left to right in "block" graphics and only on close in takes they appear as leaves again.

And now the tree is visible.

(Just uploading the video now.)

Does any one have any suggestions or have a detailed tree pack that doesnt corrupt like this? The entire set is useless now because "Long Shot" cameras or indeed any distance from the trees what so ever simple renders them to dancing flickering "Gif" style graphics... IF they are visible at all.

OS = WIndows XP & Windows V
Graphics Card = Top End nVidea
Ram 2gigs OB Card 4 Gigs Sys.
Real time map size 8k+
Anisotropic F @ 16
and all combinations of everything in search of a glitch come up emtpy handed.

Armstrong.



DELETED2
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I have run out of ideas now.

I think I'm going to have to settle for a small set and simply work close in.
This is the first time I've ever used the Biosphere collection on long shot work and it was really disappointing.
I wonder if their creator has any ideas as to why this happens.
Anyway.
I've scrapped this and it's back to the good old drawing board.



Armstrong.



Edited
13 Years Ago by Armstrong
Keith_MPS
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If you set the trees to "Smooth" you can see clearly the different levels of detail at different distances. I'm sure this is done for performance. I don't know any way to disable that.

http://malletpropstudios.com/files/tree_rendering.jpg

(Changed image to a link so that it didn't stretch the thread wider than some people's resolution might be. Click on the link to see image).

- Keith
Edited
13 Years Ago by gnasche
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Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I thought there'd have to be something.
We neeed the trees NOT to revert to this state.
I dont know what to do. When I use transparency and have the trees flat on for a long angled take they still go wierd because of the transparency.

So how the hell do we STOP this bloody annoying feature. This set was enormous. I mean enormous props wise. Wooden walkways, three tiered platforms... beautiful. Scaffolding. Just stunning.
But useless in a treeless world.

Armstrong.



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Hi Swooop, I thought there would be solutions...//... OUTSIDE iclone.

If the issue is that the trees go through various phases of mixed flat graphics at very long range and then revert to a flat singular at the utmost setting then, yes, this is ingenious in itself and worthy of praise IF you rendered the set on an older computer that struggled with multiple objects.

The issue is, sadly, as incredible as Biosphere is - and it is -  800 odd trees and plants that, when mixed, give stunning credibility to all sets just seem to have been written for a market in 2004.
Devices now, even mine, which is not particularly top end, can set in place a forest of some 200 trees and still not lose much framerate.

There HAS to be a solution. I dont know what it is but I have never been beaten before. There HAS to be some kind of workaround but for the life of me I cannot think on it.
Even when I set one of the dead trees, WITHOUT leaves on, on its side, when shot long range it reverts to a wierd kind of side on flat tree thing. !!!!!!!!!

BigBoss has made some trees but they "edge" a little. They are a superb way of making very fast forests and are used like the grasses in iClone but dont QUITE hold the detail I require even at long range.

I'm really p***ed off here. I had an entire village "Under contruction" on set. Amazing mediaval building site.

But to have to revert to using bare landscapes! Nah.

I think I'll think on it tongiht as Im brain dead on it now and start again in the morning on a new set designed for close in.

The idea was to impress clients in a three minute short where the ending was ALMOST complete, but in itself held the power AS IF it was complete.

The theory worked increidbly, but the trees died on the long sweep.
Gutted.
I absolutely didnt expect that.

But this is digital animation and we're all pioneers.

Armstrong.



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Armstrong,
the problems you are experiencing is due to the LODs built into the biosphere trees. Right now there is not much you can do. You should however make a feature request for future iclone upgrades to be able to turn this lod feature on/off in the preference panel. Did you say that rendering the tree into single plane polygons did not work for you because of transparency? if this is the case, in iclone 5 there is a new alpha threshold slider that will allow you to fix the popping, as long as the alphas are true black/white and no shades of grey. Wink




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namunger
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I'm just brainstorming here, I haven't tried it, but...
-make a .png image of the individual trees, then reload that as a billboard.
-align the billboard so it's "inside" the tree.

Now, if the mesh sketches out, there will still be coverage, but as you get closer, the mesh will overtake the image, and you won't be able to see that it's there.

That may be the same thing Swooop was suggesting, just without having to have different resolution settings.

By the way, it's not just the biosphere trees, I've had it happen with the basic trees included with iC. I tend to just use tree images in the grass layer anyway, but I don't usually need very high resolution.

----

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Hi So3d, I thought as much last night. Re: Built in issues. Is this an element that can be disabled OUTSIDE the trees themselves. Shame if it has to be edited inside every single tree.
And lastly, I'm testing the alpha threshold slider now.
But this idea was OK to start with until I realise I had to take "in situ" grabs of every tree on set which amounted to about 170.Crazy

Hi Swoop, regarding the long shots, which is primarily where the issue is... static stills of the trees with transparentised outers would work if I could just kill this wierd flicker they develop at long range. Your theory is sound, but I dont really need precodeural anything. The trees at long range on a 1000px wide shot are about 5m/m high. Its the transition to being 20% of the 1000pxwide shot that kills itself.
I question this oddity of procedural tactic, if by procedural we reference the changing from a 3D tree to a flat on graphics simplification, because in practice I cannot see that this process would do anything but the wierd dances I have on set now. Was this an issue when such software was only used for stills? I could understand then because 170 high definition trees would take an infinity to render v. 170 tiny bland flat graphics.
I dont know the full technicalities of the situation, hence I can only speak from the viewpoint of a user, not a programmer. Theoreticians need to express for the programmers and modellers to understand the need.

And thanks numunger...
Your idea was something I worked on in the beggining trying to find a way of doing the main 70% pan and sweep with "grained" tree images and transparentising but its the count thats so daunting. Time is running out for me.

Perhaps I'll have to bypass the sweeps, which is a shame, and instead I'll use "Old Book Sepia" images or even display a Map of the imaginary Island and then transition into a full colour sweep using the central Volcanic core island as the hub, leaving all forestry out of the outer perimeter walling. This way I can at least still give the beautiful impression of the magnificence of the "Long lost" as it were.

So you see, I have given it much thought. Contemplating scrapping the entire thing or finding a workaround.
All the ideas are sound... it just boils down to that one issue, Numbers. And to get the right impression one shot cannot have thirty trees and then the next 230.

I just had a thought. I literally just thought about low polygon v high polygon. Somewhere back in iClone history someone mae a few high polygon trees. These were way before Biosphere and were nothing like the "on set" trees fixed in such scenes as world wilderness and so forth.
I'll go and trundle through some old archives, I mean these were about version 1.5 iclone some 5 years back now. I'll do some tests on those.

Otherwise, Ill simply remake the landscape and do some tests making sure that the largest diameter across the volcanic island is within the scope of the BioTrees so that I dont suffer this.

Maybe I can simply re-import the old landscape and pull inwards all the props I can onto a smaller stage.
Shame really, because scales sometimes is awesome, but small can be good too. Someone just launched a Medieval video musical and its quite glorious.

I'll try the above again and see if there's an economical solution with one of them.

Armstrong.








gizmo
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Blimey sw00000p, you took the words right out of my mouth!

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colour
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sw00000p (9/23/2011)

Hi Swoop,
I question this oddity of procedural tactic, if by procedural we reference the changing from a 3D tree to a flat on graphics simplification, because in practice I cannot see that this process would do anything but the wierd dances I have on set now.

Sir,  Are we talking about the Same Thing!


A procedural texture is a computer generated image created using an algorithm intended to create a realistic representation of natural elements such as wood, marble, granite, metal, stone, and others.  Usually, the natural look of the rendered result is achieved by the usage of fractal noise and turbulence functions. These functions are used as a numerical representation of the “randomness” found in nature.

Example of a procedural marble texture:

* blue_marble(): a marble stone texture in shades of blue
  * surface
  */

 blue_marble(
          float   Ks    = .4,
                  Kd    = .6,
                  Ka    = .1,
                  roughness = .1,
                  txtscale = 1;
          color   specularcolor = 1)
 {
    point PP;            /* scaled point in shader space */
    float csp;           /* color spline parameter */
    point Nf;            /* forward-facing normal */
    point V;             /* for specular() */
    float pixelsize, twice, scale, weight, turbulence;

    /* Obtain a forward-facing normal for lighting calculations. */
    Nf = faceforward( normalize(N), I);
    V = normalize(-I);

    /*
     * Compute "turbulence" a la [PERLIN85]. Turbulence is a sum of
     * "noise" components with a "fractal" 1/f power spectrum. It gives the
     * visual impression of turbulent fluid flow (for example, as in the
     * formation of blue_marble from molten color splines!). Use the
     * surface element area in texture space to control the number of
     * noise components so that the frequency content is appropriate
     * to the scale. This prevents aliasing of the texture.
     */
    PP = transform("shader", P) * txtscale;
    pixelsize = sqrt(area(PP));
    twice = 2 * pixelsize;
    turbulence = 0;
    for (scale = 1; scale > twice; scale /= 2)
        turbulence += scale * noise(PP/scale);

    /* Gradual fade out of highest-frequency component near limit */
    if (scale > pixelsize) {
        weight = (scale / pixelsize) - 1;
        weight = clamp(weight, 0, 1);
        turbulence += weight * scale * noise(PP/scale);
    }

    /*
     * Magnify the upper part of the turbulence range 0.75:1
     * to fill the range 0:1 and use it as the parameter of
     * a color spline through various shades of blue.
     */
    csp = clamp(4 * turbulence - 3, 0, 1);
    Ci = color spline(csp,
    color (0.25, 0.25, 0.35),      /* pale blue        */
        color (0.25, 0.25, 0.35),  /* pale blue        */
        color (0.20, 0.20, 0.30),  /* medium blue      */
        color (0.20, 0.20, 0.30),  /* medium blue      */
        color (0.20, 0.20, 0.30),  /* medium blue      */
        color (0.25, 0.25, 0.35),  /* pale blue        */
        color (0.25, 0.25, 0.35),  /* pale blue        */
        color (0.15, 0.15, 0.26),  /* medium dark blue */
        color (0.15, 0.15, 0.26),  /* medium dark blue */
        color (0.10, 0.10, 0.20),  /* dark blue        */
        color (0.10, 0.10, 0.20),  /* dark blue        */
        color (0.25, 0.25, 0.35),  /* pale blue        */
        color (0.10, 0.10, 0.20)   /* dark blue        */
        );

    /* Multiply this color by the diffusely reflected light. */
    Ci *= Ka*ambient() + Kd*diffuse(Nf);

    /* Adjust for opacity. */
    Oi = Os;
    Ci = Ci * Oi;

    /* Add in specular highlights. */
    Ci += specularcolor * Ks * specular(Nf,V,roughness);
 }

Now Put This on a Flat Plane and SEE  WHAT  HAPPENS!

In brief; E=MC (Squared)Wink

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