Hi all,
unfortunately it seems like Reallusion Marketing and Support-Team does not answer our email from the 20. January 2022.

I am working on a Unreal Engine game project and I am currently doing a product evaluation for a character creation pipeline.
One of the products we are testing is the Reallusion Character Creator 3. The problem we are currently facing is not a technical problem but a problem with the EULA.

Creating a game costs a lot of resources and we do not want to choose the wrong product only to later find out that we are breaching the EULA with our mechanics. 
The problem we are facing is that the Reallusion EULA is not really clear to our understanding and also bears many risks to our project.

1. Regarding this part of the EULA

• The unique topology of characters generated by Character Creator is Reallusion’s property. You may not do the following applications unless getting explicit permission from Reallusion:
• Repurpose them into any other 3D formats, distribute them, or sell them in any third party marketplaces or applications.
• Use the characters or their morph assets to build up another character generation system in games or interactive services.

We are planning to create a character creation system in our game where the player can customize his own character before starting the game.
The player should be able to choose between different body types, skin tone, eye color, different head presets and hair.
We are not planning to use morph targets as it seems like there is no way to export them from character creator 3.
(As wished by the community since Jan. 2019 and still with no feedback from Reallusion: https://www.reallusion.com/FeedBackTracker/Issue/Exporting-morphs-to-game-engines-like-unreal-or-unity)

An example character creator we are planning could be the game XCOM 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh1ScJ7c1E

We want to achieve this by importing the different body parts and heads from character creator to Unreal Engine and then create an modular character based on the player choices as described here:
https://docs.unrealengine.com/4.27/en-US/AnimatingObjects/SkeletalMeshAnimation/WorkingwithModularCharacters/

We are also planning to create randomly generated Non Player Characters by randomly choosing a body type and a head.

Now from my understanding of the EULA it is not clearly defined what a "character generation system" is.
Is the system we are planning one? Or is the system we are planning a character customization/creation system?

I guess Reallusion wants to make sure that nobody creates a competitive product with their meshes and morphs. But then  I do not understand why the EULA would state "in games".

I would really appreciate it if there would be an official clarification about this part of the EULA as there were multiple people asking this question in the past and not getting an clear answer to this:

No answer here: https://forum.reallusion.com/439859/In-game-Character-Creation-EULA-Question

Anwser telling that as long Reallusion Content can't be extracted it is no problem. But in the EULA it does not state anything like that therefore legally this is kind of worthless.
https://forum.reallusion.com/399548/Character-Generation-System-in-games-not-allowed

Also a question about an In-Game Character Creator with no clear answer:
https://forum.reallusion.com/409945/I-can%E2%80%98t-use-the-characters-or-their-morph-assets-to-build-up-another-character-generation-system-in-games-or-interactive-services



2. The next problem we are currently facing with the EULA is the mass distribution license.
We understand that before releasing our finished game we need to get one by contacting the Reallusion marketing team and sending them information about our game.
This seems like a incredible big business risk for us as.

• The EULA does not say  which reasons lead to a refusal of the mass distribution license.
• The EULA does not say if the mass distribution license can be cancelled after it is granted.
• The EULA does not clarify what information the marketing team needs in order to grant the license. Do we only get the license after development started? Do we get the license when we only write a short sentence about our planned product? We do not want to deep dive into the development only to later find out that we are not eligible for the mass distribution license.

Peter can give a clearer answer on this.
I don't know if I saw it wrong, but I remember it as if I saw an article somewhere that they were on vacation until the 15th.

However, I had already received a response regarding the distribution permit.
This is actually just giving information and a formality.In other words, if there is no illegal content in your game, they will issue your distribution license without any problems.
On the other hand, I know that there is no limit on the use of characters in the game.
Use what you want as much as you want.

I don't think character customization will be a problem in-game, that would be weird anyway.
I just know that you can't sell the character for real money.

I haven't tried it but I think morph targets can be fraudulently exported to UE by creating animations.
I don't know if this feature will come in iC8.

Licenses are Royalty Free.
I think that the mass distribution license that will be given to you to sell your game is lifetime for that game.
There is no charge to get a volume license.

The mass distribution license is only for checking your game for illegal content.
These are not allowed in the license of most programs anyway.

These mentioned issues are already the most necessary conditions for game production, otherwise it would not be possible to make games.
Then it would have remained just a video production program.
Reallusion always supports making games with its own programs.
I don't think the company wants to complicate the production of games with its own programs.


However, I am in favor of softening the condition of not selling characters for money.
The reason is that the characters purchased with money are already in the game.
Instead, for characters that are sold for money, RL can provide an api support by enforcing the sale from its own store and receive commission from it.
(Just an idea)

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https://www.youtube.com/yepkoo
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Thanks for your answer. I really appreciate that.

I don't know if I saw it wrong, but I remember it as if I saw an article somewhere that they were on vacation until the 15th.

This would be a horrible reason for not answering. As I can imagine a lot of users are in need of support.
It is business best practice to not go in vacation with your whole support team or to use an auto answer to let the client know that his email is ingested into their ticket system and to use an auto-anwer function to let the customers know that they are on vacation.


Yes this would be really weid. But from my current understanding of the EULA and how it is currently phrased this is exactly what is not allowed.

I haven't tried it but I think morph targets can be fraudulently exported to UE by creating animations.
I don't know if this feature will come in iC8.

Yes, there are tools for this, but from our understanding as the EULA is currently phrased using Reallusion Mophs in games is not allowed.

Licenses are Royalty Free.
I think that the mass distribution license that will be given to you to sell your game is lifetime for that game.
There is no charge to get a volume license.

Problem I have with this is that the EULA doesn't say that it is a lifetime license and the EULA also doesn't say that a granted license cannot get cancelled.
Which means that Reallusion can revoke the license anytime, which is an incredible business risk.
Let's say our game will trigger an controversal media discussion as a lot of games did in the past e.g. Counter Strike.
How am I assured that Reallusion doesn't crumble under a raging Twitter mob and revokes the license?
If a company uses controvery as a marketing strategy this is completely possible.

The mass distribution license is only for checking your game for illegal content.
These are not allowed in the license of most programs anyway.

This is also kind of a unsatisfactory answer which I also found in one of the posts I linked.
1. It says nothing about that in the EULA
2. Illegal in which jurisdiction?
California, Taiwan, Atlanta where the Reallusion Headquarters are? USA? The country where the game gets developed? The country where the game gets released?
If I show homosexuality in my game the game will be illegal in China. So I don't get a mass distribution license for games showing homosexuality?
If a client from Niger wants me to make a game for him with a child marriage (which sadly is currently legal in Niger) I won't get a license?
If I show German World War 2 Symbols in my game the game will be illegal in Germany, so I won't get a license?

Reallusion always supports making games with its own programs.
I don't think the company wants to complicate the production of games with its own programs.

The EULA shows the opposite. Creating video games is already a comparable high risk business. With an EULA like that it is even more risky.
It also wouldn't help that much if an Reallusion employee now tells me here that the system I am planning is in the scope of the EULA.
In the end what counts in court are the phrases in the EULA my company agrees to. Every first semester law student could sue my company and get my game from the market with an EULA like that.

From an technical point of view Character Creator 3 is a great product and would fit our needs.
The support seems to be horrible -> no answer to our mail and extremely bad ratings in trustpilot: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/reallusion.com
The cooperation with the community seems to be horrible -> no answers for ideas in feedback tracker, customers waiting for features without an answer if the feature will ever be implemented
Part of every product evaluation is an risk assesment. No sane company would agree to an EULA, which gives your vendor the power to shut down your project/game and therefore your income stream as they please.

As far as I evaluated all the other products on the market the other vendors do not have such unclear phrases in their EULA.

I'm not really sure about this. I remember it as if I read it somewhere, but I couldn't find the place I read it. Maybe I am wrong about this.


Because of my logic, if we are allowed to use characters in the game, I see no reason not to customize this character. However, it would be better if someone authorized to comment on this issue.

Yes, there are tools for this, but from our understanding as the EULA is currently phrased using Reallusion Mophs in games is not allowed.

I haven't seen a clause in the EULA forbidding this. You can use the character in the game as you wish. Then using face mofs would also be against the EULA. However, we are having a problem with this as the iC7 cannot export body morphs. There are those who come up with different solutions to this. You can't create a character without a morph anyway. However, you need to import external characters.

Problem I have with this is that the EULA doesn't say that it is a lifetime license and the EULA also doesn't say that a granted license cannot get cancelled.
Which means that Reallusion can revoke the license anytime, which is an incredible business risk.

No, you get your Royalty Free license when you buy the programs. The license granted after your game is checked is for distribution permission to you.
I do not always agree with Reallusion marketing strategies, but the company is absolutely reliable in these matters.

This is also kind of a unsatisfactory answer which I also found in one of the posts I linked.
1. It says nothing about that in the EULA
2. Illegal in which jurisdiction?
California, Taiwan, Atlanta where the Reallusion Headquarters are? USA? The country where the game gets developed? The country where the game gets released?
If I show homosexuality in my game the game will be illegal in China. So I don't get a mass distribution license for games showing homosexuality?
If a client from Niger wants me to make a game for him with a child marriage (which sadly is currently legal in Niger) I won't get a license?
If I show German World War 2 Symbols in my game the game will be illegal in Germany, so I won't get a license?

Two things need to be noted here. The first is that the company is not against the laws of the country in which it is located. The second is that it is not against the law in the world globally. In other words, wherever you are in the world visually, anything that will constitute a crime against you is prohibited. For example, I think child marriage is child abuse.
I don't think Nigerian laws will be taken into account. Maybe a game about nazis may not be against the EULA, but a game that was created with malicious intent to collect nazi supporters in the game may be against the EULA.
How you use them in game making can be important.
Maybe they are not forbidden.
Of course, these are just my opinions, I'm just trying to make sense of it.
However, it is strictly forbidden to produce images that are 100% child abuse.
After all, I didn't think much about it because I didn't have a project about the items written here.
However, everything that is prohibited in real life is of course not prohibited in the game.
For example, stealing is a crime all over the world, but you can make a game about theft.
So when you make a game, I think that only things that can take you to court are prohibited.
Frankly, because it is really difficult to explain this, maybe EULAs do not write full details about it

Part of every product evaluation is an risk assesment. No sane company would agree to an EULA, which gives your vendor the power to shut down your project/game and therefore your income stream as they please.

It's not a EULA that they will shut down your game at any time.You get a Royaltr Free license and it already gives you your rights. The only difference is that you get a distribution permission for applications and games that cause other users to manage the skeletons and networks of Reallusion content, and I think this is not a limited distribution permission, but only a document that allows distribution.




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Edited
2 Years Ago by yepkoo

Support was not closed. The main office in Taiwan was closed for a week for Chinese New Year, but support out of the UK and the USA were still open. It is possible however that licensing questions, which aren't normally a matter of life and death, are waiting to be processed by the legal department in Taipei. 

Gerry

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System: Win 10 Pro (21H2), Asus X99-E WS, CPU i7-5930K -3,5 GHz, 32 GB DDR4 2666-16 RAM, NVidia GTX 1080 Ti GPU - 11 GB VRAM(Driver Studio-536.99), Samsung 850 Pro 512 GB SSD, 6 TB HD storage.

I would like to add a little more information, you cannot export any asset as FBX, which is prohibited from using in the game according to the EULA. If you have an Export license and you are free to use whatever you can import into the UE.The program doesn't allow you to export assets that you don't have an Export license for anyway. This includes morphs.

By the way, you have asked questions that require descriptive information about using the license for the game, and I think it would be beneficial for everyone to have them answered by an authorized person.

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https://www.youtube.com/yepkoo
https://dev.epicgames.com/community/profile/bxvo/Yepkoo#learning

Hi...

If you are planning to build a character creation system in game using Reallusion assets then unfortunately that would appear to be in breach of the EULA.

However, permission can sometimes be granted in special cases so it is important you are in contact with the right department to discuss the matter further.

Who did you email originally? If it was marketing@reallusion.com and you have still not received a reply, please contact Support using the link below and they should be able to put you in touch directly with the right person.

https://www.reallusion.com/CustomerSupport/UserEx/QForm.html

Thanks.


                                                                

Peter
Forum Administrator

www.reallusion.com

Peter, what exactly do you mean by creating this character?
We're not talking about creating a character like CC3.
it is not possible for players to do more for character customization than what the game maker offers.

"Use the characters or their morph assets to build up another character generation system in games or interactive services."

What I understand from this is to make a game or application program that produces a character.
I don't understand how this item is tantamount to customizing the character a bit so that the player can enjoy the game a little more.
As if the main purpose of the game is to produce characters.

If the player is forbidden to customize their character, then is it also forbidden to choose a different character?
If your EULA really means that, you really have to admit that it's weird.

Peter, to summarize, can you say this clearly?

1- Yes, players cannot change the hair or any other part of the character from the options we have created.
2- The player cannot choose a different character. Because there is no difference between choosing a different character and the above item. In other words, there should be only " 1 " character that the player can play in each game.

In other words, if players cannot change the color of their character, for example, they cannot choose a different character with a different color but the same appearance.
Both give the same result.

CC only matters for the main character. So people will spend thousands of dollars just for a character they can add to their game?

Finally, although the member has other questions, you or another RL employee asked him to receive information via e-mail instead of clarifying the issue for everyone.
The EULA is an important issue for everyone here and needs clarification.
Could there be a EULA system that varies from person to person?
But now I'm starting to think that there is no transparency.
Since my game will be story-oriented, my characters are fixed and I don't need such a thing.
I love Reallusion programs and will continue to use them.
But the fact that your firm is prone to prohibitive behavior is starting to worry me.

In this case, those who want to customize the character only need to use iC8 and metahuman.
CC4 is really becoming a useless program for this type of game maker.
However, someone who gives up using your programs due to these restrictions in CC4 naturally gives up on iC8. Because unnecessary, or rather unreasonable, restrictions shake people's trust.

There should also be a logical explanation when there is a restriction, but there is no logical explanation for why character customization is prohibited in the game.

Peter, I'm not disparaging the company here.
Like I said I really like RL programs.
But as a customer I really want to point out that this is strange.
The EULA seems to have been drafted by someone who just can't decide what to do.
Because the things he forbidden are so insignificant as to not harm RL in the slightest, but it is a big problem that almost prevents RL's entry into the game world.
What harm could customizing assets whose nets cannot be removed from the game do to RL?
On the contrary, others will prefer your program because of what CC can do.

I'm not saying anything about special permission. I still respect this issue because your company has decided in this way. However, the reason for giving the special permission is to prevent them from using the program for illegal purposes. However, it is unnecessary, the reason is that these are already in the conditions of game companies to accept the game. In other words, even if you do not add that condition to the EULA, no one can sell a game with illegal content through any game company. Those who will do this will not take into account the EULAs of either you or the game companies and will sell them at hand.
Nobody spends years on a game they can't sell. I think videos and images carry a higher risk in this regard.

I appreciate yours improving yours programs.
Especially the CC4 and iC8 look great.
But you are not developing your EULA and because your EULA has not kept up with this era, such quality programs seem to be imprisoned within a constraint.

I think your EULA really needs a serious fix.

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https://www.youtube.com/yepkoo
https://dev.epicgames.com/community/profile/bxvo/Yepkoo#learning

Hi Peter,


Thanks for the clarification.


Yes, the EULA says that there is a way for a special permission.


Yes, we contacted the marketing address as we had a lot of questions regarding the mass distribution license and these are the guys granting it.

I updated the project lead and our lead programmer with the new information from your post.
I got the answer that "In no way we are gonna ask for a special permission for every project we are doing. We are not buying this."


Nevertheless, thank you for your answer. I could finally finish my product evalution.

Also big thanks to yepkoo for helping me out. I have to agree with him that this topic should not be discussed per case in a private email discussion. My post showed that a lot of people were asking these questions in the past.
The next person doing an product evaluation will encounter the same questions and problems. I would highly suggest Reallusion to fix their EULA or to clearly communicate to their community that modularized Reallusion characters in games are not welcomed.

This is a huge disappointment. Daz 3D is a superior character creation software choice because you can export any body morph that any artist creates as long as you paid for the interactive licenses. Character Creator 3 falls on its face by not allowing its morphs to be used in an in-game character creation system. I wanted to use Character Creator 3 characters with Unity's multi-purpose avatar system only to find out we can't export body morphs. We wasted a bunch of money.