No at all blue, all I'm saying is that what he did to get that image\animation is beyond anyone that just started using 3d or doing compositing for that matter, making all those layers work just right is not easy or intuitive.
Of course with proper training anyone can do this. But the key word here is knowhow. Not only of 3d but also in the art of compositing.

Cheers,

Stuckon3d



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Hey Cris,

Yes I understand it's a bit complex for the average hobbyist, but my concern here is how to overcome some iClone limitations ( regarding rendering here ) by using known production technics, to see if, ultimately, iClone can be used for what I intend to do.

If I hit a wall, a hard limitation, and then there is no workaround or upgrade from Reallusion, then I'll find another software/solution, simple as that.

I want to see if, technicaly - and I insist on the technical side here, I'm not speaking about artistical results - a certain level of quality can be achieved for the result to be considered by the main stream audience ( tv, movie, web-serie, etc.. ) as 'acceptable'.

The Machinima community is very tolerant regarding the technical quality of the result ( rendering, animation, .. ), the main stream audience is not, believe me.

So, if this goal can be achieved, then a all new world of ( indy ) entertainment can be opened, with commercial results ( albeit the goal here is not to create machinima to make money, but to make money to be able to create machinima movies, series, etc.. on a higher level ).

I believe there are some hobbyists here who ultimately share the idea of a professional development of their work, and dream to, or want to become professional directors/writers/animators/etc.. And machinima is certainly a good start to expose your talent as such.

On my side it's a bit different as I'm already a professional, what I'm trying to do is to find the right platform/pipeline/workflow to be able to propose, to the professional community, an alternative way to create 3d animation series, movies, etc.. I've also worked in the movie industry on set, and my ultimate goal is to bring back the on set 'magic' into the 3d animation world with a certain approach of realtime animation, wich is a bit what iClone propose in its 'Director' mode, but need to be opened with a SDK or scripting ( like Daz did ) in order to include procedural animation rather than being purely based on mocap or predefined animations.

So far, the only 'hard limit' or 'wall' or 'showstopper' if you want I've found with iClone are :

- the impossibility to keyframe smooth animation ( due to the lack of smooth key interpolation, only linear and the ease in/out modes are available ). I sincerely hope they will fix this because this is totaly unacceptable for any animation software.

- the need of a SDK/Scripting to deal with procedural animation ( crossing fingers.. ).

Regarding the rendering side, I'm pretty confident it's possible to get the needed quality results and that's what I'm experimenting with those tests.

On a side note, regarding the anti-aliasing problems I get in the animation : there are also some flickering, not due to aliasing problems but to modeling problems( sorry StoneMason.. ). In the UrbanFuture3 set, there are a lot of overlapping polygons that create flicking artifacts when the camera move, so I have to fix those polygons. For the antialiasing, there is still another possibility wich is an old trick too : rendering 4x time the size of the image then scale down after rendering. I did not tested this yet, but I will. Obviously, a native 'enhanced' anti-aliasing mode would be preferable ( StudioGPU is doing this without any problem ), but this is not a showstopper per say though.

So far on the rendering side, I'm quite happy with the possibilities, and the hints you gave about SSAO and layers show promises. The next step for me is to test this multi-passes rendering approach with characters.

Cheers,
Guy.

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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

In fact I'm not 'separating' the layers at render time. I do create several versions of the same asset, but with different look for each.

For the 'Albedo' pass, I've created a version of the asset with all the materials setted to constant ( full white diffuse, self illumination 100% ) and with each Diffuse material channel setted to the color textures. This way you get the full color information of the asset without any lighting.

For the 'Ambient' and 'Lighting' passes, I've created another version of the asset with materials setted to their respective surface properties ( diffuse/specular color, no self-illumination of course, specular/glossiness ). The ambient color is irrelevant as no ambient color is used ( even for the 'Ambient' pass wich uses IBL in my case ). Materials have no diffuse textures, only 'Bump'/'Specular'.

For the 'Depth' pass, I've created another version of the asset with all material setted to constant black ( diffuse black, self-illumination 100% ) and no textures. The depth rendering from black ( near camera ) to white ( far camera ) is then created using white Fog.

For the 'Light' pass, I've created another version of the asset with anything other than lights setted as for the depth pass, constant black, and the lights recieve their diffuse and glow texture and strength, if any, and self-illumination at 100%.

For the 'Ambient Occlusion' pass, I've created another version of the asset, similar to the 'Albedo' but rather than using the color textures the baked ambient occlusion textures are used. This is also here where I have to use the asset with a different set of UVs ( unique UVs ), and this is the only reason why a second set of UVs has to be created ( in XSI, Blender, Max, whatever.. ).

So in all I have 6 versions of the asset that I switch in my project to render each pass. The project itself contains the fog settings ( for the depth pass ), the IBL settings ( for the ambient pass ) and the lights settings ( for the lighting pass ). I can save those setting as an 'Atmosphere', ableit if I use more than 4 shadowed lights I have to save several 'Atmosphere'/'Project' ( especialy if they are animated ). I can use several IBLs too, for the ambient.

So yes, it's a bit complex, albeit once you get used to it it's not that complex, but it's certainly a lot more work than straight rendering as you have to prepare your sets, props, characters, etc.. to create thoses versions prior to render. In the case of characters, I wont create several versions, just the materials presets. I have yet to solve the ambient occlusion problem on character, for wich, SSAO would be welcome

If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask for more details.

Cheers,
Guy.

--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

Hey Guy-

One more question - pardon my insatiable curiosity.

Are you using levels of opacity or multiply or alpha channels when you blend each (pass) layer in your final composite? I'm trying to figure out how you do that.

Thanks-
Cathy

Just click on the graphic to go there.

To be honest Guy, for me . . . most of it is unclear, but I won't ask for further details.

No, actually you have already written in good, understandable detail at a level I had not even thought about let alone considered striving for. Please continue with your work in this area because I love the notion of someone, or everyone being able to create machinima on a higher plane. I have no doubt however that this will be achieved. Lastly, I totally agree that animation does need to be vastly improved if iClone itself is to move forward.

Regards,

gizmo

Thanks for sharing so much information with us - this is quite fascinating!

The results are AWSOME ! fingers crossed RL look at this and address some of the issues you raise . Though I am not chasing realistic results from my animation I am wanting better character animation tools ....



I Make My Mates Do The CanCan For The Amusement Of Killer Robots

I am very bad at English, so I will try to convey my thoughts in simple words.

If you buy a car for passenger transportation, it is likely that you try to do everything possible to passengers in the car was comfortable to ride. And if you try to use this car for races, you will need to radically alter the car. And it is no longer a vehicle for carrying passengers.

In Russian, there is an expression 'to separate flies from cutlets' Why hammering nails with microscope?

iClone is designed for rendering movies in real time. In real time. Movies! And the movie is an idea, script, direction, etc. And sophisticated mastery of technology will not replace the lack of movie ideas or thoughts or, for example, composition rules for frame. It is a pity that in recent times the word "movie" becomes synonymous with the word "technique". The vacuum can be attractive as an indicator of excellent job of pumps, but it will always remain a vacuum.

And by the way, I did not see on the forum ongoing discussions about scripting techniques, stage directions etc. I doubt that all are born with such skills... but all is just about the technique. Is it really all you need to create a good movie? (It's a rhetorical question, of course )

As a technical trick - yes, your method is interesting, but... only as trick.

Really, I'm not trying to offend you. If so - my apologies and once again my apologies for the lousy english. All claims for bad translation can bring to Google-translator

--------
Igor

Now that is impressive!

I wish I had the time to do muti-pass and then composite everything in AE.  Currently I might be working with 2 or 3 layers max.

However after seeing this you have given me ideas.

Thanks

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I Make My Mates Do The CanCan For The Amusement Of Killer Robots