Hi everyone,

I am an old user of almost all Reallusion software (I have Iclone 5, Iclone 6 pro, Iclone 7 pro, 3dxchange 6 pro,  Crazytalk animator 2 pro, Character creator 3 pipeline, Indigo & Iray Render, Crazy Talk 8, Crazytalk animator 3 Pipeline...)

I consider unfair that everytime a new version of the software is released, the new users who buy the old version, are rewarded with the new version. And what happens with the old users? Is our reward only a little discount? I think that it's unfair that while the new users have the new version free, the ones who bought the old version long time ago have to pay to get the new version. Getting it free (or almost free) should be a reward for our "loyalty"

I think that Reallusion doesn't care for its users.

Thank you.

I totally agree with you. For example, I'm a musician, and I buy one software for my music. They release every year a new version of their soft. Sometimes it takes two years. But every release, there's huge difference of price for someone who buy first time and for someone who "upgrade" for the new version. I guess the answer "yes but it's not the same software". I'm sorry; Iclone 7 is an upgrade of Iclone 6 which is an upgrade of Iclone 5, as Character chreator 3 is an upgrade of CC2...Iclone is Iclone, CC is still CC 2 or 3 or 7


     

I'm no RL apologist (I suspect Peter would be the first to confirm this :> but the general approach for their software doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me.  Clearly they are not a large company, and equally clearly the 3D software business is not exactly *booming* (not this kind -- it requires a peculiar commitment to study and learning that most people will not want to devote).

Since Charly brought up music let's talk about that for a minute -- the music software industry is a MUCH different beast, with everyone and their mother thinking they can make music.  Not so with 3D animation.  For every 100 folks who make a song, there are probably less than one or two who will make an animation.  And it will take FAR longer to do it.  And the software is MUCH more complicated (I've written sequencers and midi handlers myself -- piece of cake.  Even audio processing is a snap compared to working in 3 dimensions).

And let's not forget that any company which doesn't make enough money will cease to exist -- the music industry found that out recently when the venerable Cakewalk company went out of business, leaving a lot of us in deep do-do (it was reacquired, thank goodness, but there is never any guarantee that will happen, nor that the new company will be as good as the old one).  Where would any of us be if RL was not a company anymore?

Finally, it's not as if they are always charging us for new releases.  Hell, they bring a tremendous amount of new functionality to each version for YEARS without even a yearly maintenance fee (which I really think they ought to charge -- a LOT of companies do that and you STILL have to pay for new releases).  Paying for iClone 8, WHATEVER it costs, will be a small factor indeed for the new stuff it will bring.

And... you don't have to upgrade.  There are folks here (maybe some who will even pipe in here) still using 6.  Hell, there are some still using 5.  No one is putting a gun to your head to use the new features it cost a small company like RL a lot to create.  I doubt very much if anyone at the company is getting rich, and whatever they need to keep going I'm willing to pay.  Again, a small price for the much needed improvements for ANY software.

So, sorry, not at all sympathetic here.  I can hardly wait for each new release and don't give a thought to the small amount I pay in comparison to the hundreds (and thousands) of hours I'll be using it.  And I hope and pray they continue to offer good enough deals to get new users, the lifeblood of any growth, started with the system.  There are many things I think RL does very, very wrong, but the pricing isn't one of them.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

It doesn't matter Mike, you are still sympa Yes I agree , but we always compare things, it's human


     

I don't agree at all. It's normal for RL to sell the new versions. But my post was more focused on the rewards. Only new users get big rewards (Cartoon animator 4 free or iclone 7 free). I am not going to buy CA3 pipeline again to get Cartoon animator 4, of course. And if I buy CA4, my reward is only a discount. 

On the other hand, the difference between softwares is not so huge (and that's why there is people who still use iclone 5 or 6). However, sometimes these little differences are interesting. For example, morph animator, curve editor or Iray Addon are attractive. If these tools were included in iclone 7, the purchase would be justified. But, If you want to use curve editor, you need to upgrade to iclone 7 and buy the curve editor. If you want the morph animator, you need to upgrade to iclone 7 and 3dxchange 7... and in these situations, your initial aim is only to get this new tool or addon.

There are other 3d design softwares: Poser, blender, fuse, Rhino... Poser 11 is similar to CC3 and I think smithmicro is not a big company. And if you have the old versión of Poser, you can update it free (for a limited time) to Poser 11. Furthermore, with poser, you can import and export withtout another software and there are not pay addons. Now smithmicro has an offer for new users (60% discount) but old users have also their own reward (free upgrade).

It's normal for the company to aspire to get profit, but they should reward the loyalty of old users instead of only caring for attracting new users.

And 3DMax costs $4K AND you need to pay them $1K per year for the privilege of even small updates.

Nope, don't agree with you at all.  RL is doing just fine with their pricing.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

To be totally honest, my *perception* is that when 'new', you have to be very careful about 'which' of the programs to buy. That's because a 'newcomer' (and I include myself), is totally green and doesn't even know what questions to ask. Sure, 'buyer beware' and all that, but there's certainly 'gotcha's along the way. People aren't stupid - well maybe they are idk. lol. They 'know' or get a 'gut feeling about their experience with a company. I feel that it's in a company's long term best interest to 'come accoss' on the 'reasonable' (slightly generous) side, rather than at the 'perceived' penny pinching end of the spectrum. The short term forfeiture of a few dollars here and there, can be offset by happier long term customers willing to buy again and again, plus a good reputation which would bring in more new buyers as well. Having said this of course, it's probably the small time or 'one man shows' that are most likely affected financially, whereas for the larger outfits making reasonable commercial gain, it may not be an issue anyway.

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Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time!   - yikes! ... 

● MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram ● iClone-7.93 ● 3DXChange Pipeline 7.81 ● CC-3 Pipeline 3.44 ● Live Face ● HeadShot ● Brekel Pro-Body ● Popcorn FX ● iRAY ● Kinect V2 ● DaVinci Resolve17 ● Mixcraft 8.1

There is a big difference between 3dMax and Iclone… the software is very different.  I have compared two little companies (smithmicro and RL) with a similar software. In your case, you are comparing between Peugeot and Ferrari.

Furthermore, 3DMax is designed for companies and that's why the cost and politics are different. I consider that Iclone is designed for amateur users.

Smith-Micro isn't at all like RL - for one thing, none of them have EVER written software (I know from long personal experience).  They acquire software written by others and do not support their own staff at all.  If you want RL to be like them -- you are crazy.

But if you do -- use their software and stop complaining.  No one is forcing you to buy anything, least of all RL (and complaining on a support forum is a bit like masturbating, which you are welcome to do but please don't include us in the process).

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I wold like to put a different perspective on the situation.

Every software (or "high tech") company has the risk that announcing a new product will halt nearly all purchases of their existing product.  Why buy v6 if v7 will be release in a month or two?  This applies to iClone, smart phones, CPUs, graphics cards, etc.  Meanwhile, your cash flow suffers, and you run the risk that a potential customer may use that time to fall in lover with a competitor's product.

So it makes sense to ensure you get the new customer's money now (good for immediate cash flow) and they become your customer, not someone else's.

SO HERE'S THE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE - This of it as buying v7 early, but getting to use v6 while you wait for v7 to be released.

I believe that is how Reallusion usually (or at least "often") describes it in their offers to new customers.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
Desktop (homebuilt) - Windows 10, Ryzen 9 3900x CPU, GTX 1080 GPU (8GB), 32GB RAM, Asus X570 Pro motherboard, 2TB SSD, terabytes of disk space, dual  monitors.
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