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Imported clothing doesn't work with character springs?

Posted By ken_1171 2 Months Ago
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ken_1171
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More recently I've noticed a couple of things concerning avatars imported from DAZ:

1. If I hide all body polys under the clothing (to avoid pokethrus and make the model lighter), springs no longer work. It seems like character springs only work on visible polys. For example, breast springs stop working if the chest polys are hidden under the shirt. Is this how it was supposed to be?

2. Body springs don't seem to work with clothing imported with Transformer. It works on the avatar, but not on the Transformer imported clothing. I've checked the shirt skeleton, and it seems to have the spring bones, but they don't automatically follow chest springs like native iClone clothing does. What do I have to do change to make it work? 

I would appreciate any help on these issues. Smile
Kelleytoons
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On the Transformer clothing, did you transfer the body weights?  You *always* need to do this.

I don't really use springs or care much, but I can check it out later if I remember.



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ken_1171
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If the shirt is conformed and poses well with the avatar, I would assume it does have the proper weights, right? But what do weights have to do with spring dynamics? 
Kelleytoons
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You ALWAYS have to reweight any clothing brought in through Transformer -- you cannot assume things.

As to why it would or wouldn't work with springs -- as I said, I don't use them, have zero experience with them, but I assume they would work with the weighting of any clothing item (how else *would* they work?  They must move that clothing through weights).



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ken_1171
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Ok, I've sent the character back to CC3 and transferred the weights. NOW the shirt responds to the spring bones on the figure - that was it! However, I have explicitly asked Kai DeNeve in one of the Reallusion webinars, and he said Transformer will always transfer the weights, so we don't have to do it manually every time. Sounds like that was not quite true. We DO have to transfer the weights after using Transformer. In this particular case, the shirt poses perfectly with the avatar after Transformer brings it in, BUT it doesn't respond to springs from the avatar. 

So it looks like Transformer does transfer SOME weights, but NOT all of them. Certainly not the weights from the spring bones. Maybe the dev team forgot to take these into consideration?
ken_1171
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As additional info, I want to rectify that invisible geometry does NOT make spring bones to stop working. It was Transformer ignoring spring bone weights that caused them not to work on the clothing when back to iClone. I went back to CC3 and hid the avatar's chest geometry again, after having transferred the weights to the shirt, and sent it back to iClone. Now everything works. I've first jumped to the wrong conclusion that the spring bones weren't working because the underlying geometry was hidden, but it was instead because Transformer ignores weights from spring bones. I have posted this issue at the "Technical Issues" thread because I don't think this is how it was supposed to work.
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Spring is not "transformed"from DAZ.

The CC skeleton has the breast bones set up for spring, and you can change the settings in iClone.
http://manual.reallusion.com/iClone_7/ENU/Pro/Default.htm#iClone_7/Pro_7.0/23_Spring/Spring_Settings.htm?Highlight=spring%20bones

And you only need to run the transfer weights again if something is wonky. It does not hurt anything, but there is usually no reason to.
ken_1171
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Rampa (1/13/2019)
Spring is not "transformed"from DAZ.
The CC skeleton has the breast bones set up for spring, and you can change the settings in iClone.


I think you have misunderstood me. I have never claimed springs were supposed to be transformed from DAZ. After all, they are bones from the CC figure. The issue here is that the weights from these particular bones are being ignored by Transformer, and this is not right. I know that because transferring weights manually actually include these weight maps, while Transformer doesn't. That's the issue I am reporting here.
Peter (RL)
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ken_1171 (1/12/2019)
More recently I've noticed a couple of things concerning avatars imported from DAZ:

1. If I hide all body polys under the clothing (to avoid pokethrus and make the model lighter), springs no longer work. It seems like character springs only work on visible polys. For example, breast springs stop working if the chest polys are hidden under the shirt. Is this how it was supposed to be?


Hiding polys under the clothing should not affect Spring. If this is happening there must be a separate issue. Can you tell us which characters are affected by this issue and the steps you are taking so we can try and locate the problem? Thanks.

2. Body springs don't seem to work with clothing imported with Transformer. It works on the avatar, but not on the Transformer imported clothing. I've checked the shirt skeleton, and it seems to have the spring bones, but they don't automatically follow chest springs like native iClone clothing does. What do I have to do change to make it work?


Currently, you won't get Spring effect when using "Transformer". We plan to add this in a future update. For now, you can use 3DXchange 7 to correct the problem with Daz characters. Please see the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQupVnj0G1A


                                                                

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ken_1171
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Peter (RL) (1/22/2019)
Hiding polys under the clothing should not affect Spring. If this is happening there must be a separate issue. Can you tell us which characters are affected by this issue and the steps you are taking so we can try and locate the problem? Thanks.


Thanks, I have already clarified this in the other thread that originated this one. Things can get confusing when we discuss something in 2 different places, and I forgot to update this one. It comes down that it was not that the hidden polys that were impeding spring bones from working, but instead that Transformer ignores these bones when handling the weight maps. 

Currently, you won't get Spring effect when using "Transformer". We plan to add this in a future update. For now, you can use 3DXchange 7 to correct the problem with Daz characters. Please see the video below.


Yes, this was the issue to start with. It took me a while but I have figured it out. Transformer will ignore spring bone weight maps, so the resulting rigging is incomplete after the process. The simple way to fix this is to simply transfer the weight maps again afterwards, and THEN the spring bone weight maps will be handled properly in the outfits. There is no need to use 3DXchange in this case, because all I wanted was to use the chest bones that already ship with the default CC figure. 3DXchange would be needed only if the outfit would use custom spring bones, and that would be understandable, but not the case here.

For some reason, some people try to justify this deficiency by their personal preferences. I don't want to get into the merit of whether or not this or that person likes or uses the spring bones that exist in the CC figure. My only concern that is that after Transformer finishes it's job, the outfit rigging is incomplete, missing the weight maps from the CC chest spring bones. I just want to report that here, and I am glad to know it will be addressed in a future update, 



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