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Issues with CC not integrated into iC7

Posted By Lord Ashes 2 Years Ago
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Lord Ashes
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I am sure people have stated various reasons why CC should be integrated into iClone as opposed to having, for the most part, independent software.
Here are a couple of issues that I observed:

1. File Format Duality

iClone and CC don't share the same file format for some of their files. For example, there is iCloth vs ccCloth or iAcc vs ccAcc. While switching between the two formats is fairly trivial (load them in the other software and save them), it creates problems for the Marketplace. Marketplace allows content to be associated with one software or the other and no matter which you choose, your potentially losing out on some customers. Some user like to dress up characters fully in CC and then push them to iClone for animation only. Other users like to use CC to make a bare bones character and then add accessories (or even clothing) in iC7. This means if you don't create 2 version of the content, one for CC and one for iC7, you may miss some potential CC user if deploying as iC7 content or miss some potential iC7 users if depolying as CC content.

If we had one standardized set of file formats (i.e. if iC7 and CC used the same clothing and accessory files) then this problem would be eliminated.

2. Render Engine Discrepancies

If CC was part of iC7 then both software would use the same render engine eliminating discrepancies between the two. As it is now, it seems that iC7 and CC don't use the same render engine code which causes discrepancies between the two software. For example, I created some custom clothing in CC. I adjusted it so that I had no peek through in CC. Then I pushed the CC character to iC7. Without even changing the pose, the CC character arrived in iC7 with poke through. Thus i had to go back to CC, overcompensate the peek-through adjustment (guessing since it looked okay in CC) and then re-push to iC7. Not a big issue but it shows that the two software do not use the exact same render engine code.

"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to walk on the grass while we have the right to smoke it"
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Kelleytoons
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Posted 2 Years Ago
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From a developer point of view I can understand your frustration with these two issues, but not only do I think it will never happen, I think integration into iClone would be a Very Bad Idea for Character Creator.

Purely from a programming standpoint it would be a nightmare, but even as a user I've seen software bloat that just doesn't make sense, making the program load slowly and work terribly.  It's already a long load for either one, and both use tons of memory -- trying to put one in the other just would never work.

But perhaps that's not what you really mean -- you don't mean integrated INTO so much as you just mean integrated, so that the two separate programs fit better with each other.  And I would agree that's a very good goal.  File formats have always been a very odd thing to deal with in iClone, even between different versions of iClone itself.  And I still think there are WAY too many file types with very odd characteristics.  Getting more consistency between the two programs would be great.

Without putting CC directly inside of iClone, though (which as I've said, won't ever happen and is a Bad Idea) I don't think you'll get render issues resolved.  They've come closer, but I think it's just something we need to deal with, and going back and forth easily is the best solution.



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but0fc0ursee
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Content Developer View... Versus ... Software Creator View:
The content developer could generate more revenue if they are combined.
It's a no brainer why RL separated the two.

Postfrosch
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It is enough to publish the clothing in CC format. (* .cccloth)You can also export the clothes without IClone to an avatar. Then you will automatically go to * .ICloth. Users who prefer their avatars from the CC in IClone and their avatar of dressed by no drawback.The CC-Avatar is exported to the iAvatar and you can put him the previously exported dresses.
Greets Postfrosch
Sorry for my bad english. Ist only a google translation.


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Edited
2 Years Ago by Peter (RL)
Lord Ashes
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Kelleytoons (8/5/2017)Purely from a programming standpoint it would be a nightmare,

I am not sure I would agree. From the fact that iC7 and CC don't render exactly the same, it seems to me that both software wrote their own render engines (or at least have significant differences in the code). If the software was merged, a lot of the code could be reused for both...I mean with Morph Creator you could almost host the main functions of CC in iClone (i.e. export each CC morph from CC and then add through iClone).

Kelleytoons (8/5/2017)but even as a user I've seen software bloat that just doesn't make sense, making the program load slowly and work terribly.  It's already a long load for either one, and both use tons of memory -- trying to put one in the other just would never work.

DAZ Studio has a combined editing and character creation software in one. Yes, the initial load is long but otherwise, in general, it runs fairly smoothly. So that means it is possible.

Kelleytoons (8/5/2017)But perhaps that's not what you really mean -- you don't mean integrated INTO so much as you just mean integrated, so that the two separate programs fit better with each other.  And I would agree that's a very good goal.  File formats have always been a very odd thing to deal with in iClone, even between different versions of iClone itself.  And I still think there are WAY too many file types with very odd characteristics.  Getting more consistency between the two programs would be great.

I'll take whatever we can get. Unifying the file formats between the two software would be a good start.

Kelleytoons (8/5/2017)Without putting CC directly inside of iClone, though (which as I've said, won't ever happen and is a Bad Idea) I don't think you'll get render issues resolved.

Actually I am surprised that we get them at all. For efficiency, if I had a software like iClone and I was creating a companion software like CC, I would use the exact same render engine (probably create an external library which could be reused by any such software) so as to not have to re-invent the wheel.


"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to walk on the grass while we have the right to smoke it"
Lord Ashes' Original
Lord Ashes
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but0fc0ursee (8/5/2017)
Content Developer View... Versus ... Software Creator View:
The content developer could generate more revenue if they are combined.
It's a no brainer why RL separated the two.

I don't know if your logic works differently than mine or if you are being sarcastic but your statement confuses me.
In an ideal world for both RL and Content Developer. RL creates the two pieces of software (either integrated or not) and charges money for the combination (as they do now...CC is basically free with iC) or each. No revenue lost.
The file formats get unified so that Content Developers can sell one version meaning user will find it regardless if they are searching for iClone or CC stuff. Thus Content Developer gets more revenue which means RL gets more revenue because they have a cut of all content in the marketplace. Win - win for all.



"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to walk on the grass while we have the right to smoke it"
Lord Ashes' Original
Lord Ashes
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Postfrosch (8/5/2017)
It is enough to publish the clothing in CC format. (* .cccloth). You can...

Yes. I said this in my OP. You can convert between the two fairly easily. However, the problem is in the Marketplace. When adding content to the Marketplace part of the content information is what type of software it is for (i.e. iClone, CC, CrazyTalk, etc). This information is then used by the Marketplace search engine as well as some Theme Stores to categorize the content. For example, some Theme Stores have a section specific for CC content. If my content is provided as iC7 accessories (i.e. iAcc files) then it is unlikely to be placed in the CC section of the Theme Store. Similarly if the content is provided in CC format (i.e. ccAcc files) then it may not be placed in the iClone section of the Theme Store. Similarly if someone searches the Marketplace for CC accessories they would not get the iC7 accessories (and vice versa).
This basically means that I end up creating a iC7 version and an CC version of the content so that it is guaranteed to be found in either section. I can't even make a single pack which indicates both software, I need to make 2 packs. For example, my "CC Adornment Pack 2 - Nails" contains both the iC7 and CC versions of the content but I still needed to make 2 packs, in order to ensure that the search engine would find it in both categories.


"We often compare ourselves to the U.S. and often they come out the best, but they only have the right to walk on the grass while we have the right to smoke it"
Lord Ashes' Original
but0fc0ursee
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Lord Ashes (8/5/2017)
but0fc0ursee (8/5/2017)
Content Developer View... Versus ... Software Creator View:
The content developer could generate more revenue if they are combined.
It's a no brainer why RL separated the two.
...your statement confuses me.

To avoid confusion:
(Reallusion closely guards CC).... you don't have "Full" control of the content.

NOTE:
~ iClone has only (1) render engine.
~ When the render engines sees CC formats.... It  (enacts Special Code) and treated differently.... NOT sent to another render engine.

"The file formats get unified so that Content Developers....gets more revenue"

...RL gets more revenue because they have a cut of all content in the marketplace

Why should RL settle for a cut? RL created the software.

Example:
RL DOES make money from everything you sell,
BUT...

When the customer want's CC... (With separate programs)
This "Slows the Roll" of the middle man.

Result: Reallusion Make MORE money.
(you're not creating.... you're selling RL's derivatives)
It's  a No Brainer.



Edited
2 Years Ago by but0fc0ursee
Peter (RL)
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Lord Ashes (8/5/2017)

2. Render Engine Discrepancies

If CC was part of iC7 then both software would use the same render engine eliminating discrepancies between the two. As it is now, it seems that iC7 and CC don't use the same render engine code which causes discrepancies between the two software. For example, I created some custom clothing in CC. I adjusted it so that I had no peek through in CC. Then I pushed the CC character to iC7. Without even changing the pose, the CC character arrived in iC7 with poke through. Thus i had to go back to CC, overcompensate the peek-through adjustment (guessing since it looked okay in CC) and then re-push to iC7. Not a big issue but it shows that the two software do not use the exact same render engine code.


Hi Lord Ashes,

This problem you report shouldn't be happening so can you send us the CC project file so we can check the process of sending your character to iClone to see what changes.

Please send to Support using the link below and mark it for "Attention of Peter". Since the attachment file size limitation of the support form is 5 MB, you can use cloud services like Dropbox, Box, OneDrive, Google Drive etc. to make the download link available to us. Once we can check your character we will be able to advise further about this issue. Thanks.

http://www.reallusion.com/CustomerSupport/UserEx/QForm.aspx


                                                                

Peter
Forum Administrator

www.reallusion.com


animagic
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I don't believe poke-through is necessarily caused by a difference in render engine (if there actually is a difference). 

There is a problem with collision shapes in iClone, some of which are missing for CC characters. I've entered an FT issue for that some time ago (#2063).


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