Hey guys

I am looking into buying an Xbox Kinect to use it with iClone and i could really use some advice.

First, i want to clarify that i want the Kinect for creating simple/everyday motions, like opening doors, exiting a car, pushing a button etc. I don't wanna create anything extraordinary like backflips and karate stuff. Also, i don't care about finger animation.

So, on to the questions:

1) What is the difference between the Xbox 360 Kinect and the Xbox One Kinect?

2) I currently have the funds only for the device, not for the iclone plug-in. Is there another way to create motions and import them to iclone?

3) I would like to create simple motions. But is it worth to buy it or not? Will it do the job? I have heard that motion capturing with Kinect creates jittering and abnormal motions, and that it's a bit frustrating to work with it. What's the truth here?

I am in over my head, so any advice would be most welcome!!

Thanks!!


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Phoenix  

As someone who ended buying two Kinect devices (and fairly $$ capture software that works a treat) my advice would be not to do it.  It's a bit like the old days when we programmers would write on the blackboard: "Good, fast and cheap" and then say "Pick any two".  But in the case of capturing it's more like "Good, easy, cheap -- pick any two".

You can certainly do great captures, but it won't be easy unless you spend some significant money.  But there are TONS of free captures out there, and even some more that are very little money, and for any but the most particular animation they will more then suffice for the groundwork and you can then tweak for your own needs.  Just my two cents.

(Oh, and the Kinect 360 isn't sold anymore.  So there IS no difference in Kinects sold, but for using with a PC you'll also need the PC adapter cable, which is currently running another $50 or so.  But it requires Windows 8 or above).

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

First of all, thanks for your reply!!
I didn't specify that a friend of mine already has the 360 Kinect and he will probably lend it to me. I need a different adapter for that one, right? Besides the adapter, are there any other differences in the capture quality?

Now, i don't know if i understood what you are saying about the capture programs.

From what you are saying, i gather that, if i have kinect along with a capture program i will be able to do good captures. I don't mind setting the groundwork and then tweaking the motion. So why in your first phrase you advise me not to buy it? I don't get it.

Thanks again!!


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Phoenix  

Sw00000p, thank you for the reply too. The above reply was going to kelleytoons, you posted while i was replying. Sorry for the misunderstanding

1) So, what you suggest is to buy the kinect, capture the motions with Brekel and then clean them up in motionbuilder and/or in iclone?

2) I don't mind learning and training, in fact i enjoy it. I am asking all this because my money is limited, so i want to make sure that the kinect will hold it's end of the bargain. I wanna make sure that, with time, sweat and practice, i will be able to create decent motions. Is this true?

(So, i guess that the reallusion kinect plug in is not that good, right? I should gather funds for motionbuilder and Brekel?)


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Phoenix  

Sw00000p i am sorry, i can't understand what you are saying.

I mean, i do understand the general mindset, and i agree, but it's not what i am asking.

Let me put it this way:

I will devote both time and effort in training. But is the Kinect ABLE, as a software, to produce human-like motions, if i become good with it?
Or is the Kinect's capacity for real life motions limited, so i would be better off saving money for a perception neuron, for example?

I am not very good with english, but what i am asking is if the Kinect is suitable, as a way of MoCaping and as a software, for the job that i want it.

Thanks for replies


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Phoenix  

Sorry, taking a nap.  Swoop says some good things (and some things he says are indeed hard to understand -- partly that's Swoop :>.  But here's my perspective (and I think you'll see where it agrees with him and where it doesn't).

Getting GOOD motion capture takes *either* very good software/hardware ($$$) or a lot of work (that equation I was talking about earlier).  Sometimes it can take both, but usually you can solve most problems by thowing money at them.  The less money you use, the more work you need to spend.  At some point you need to ask yourself if the work you are doing is worth the trouble in the first place, which is why I (and Swoop) talk about all the great motion capture clips that are already out there. 

The point is, if you are going to spend a lot of time cleaning up the captures you make (with cheap or free software/hardware) you might as well spend that time customizing the free stuff you can get.  If you would rather ease your time requirements then you can throw more money at the problem.

When I say "good capture program" I'm talking at least a few hundred dollars -- you can spend far more, of course, but the very least program I would recommend would be the iPisoft one -- the "basic" goes for $345 a year, but you might be able to get by with the Express ($95 -- these are ANNUAL subscription costs for the software, so you don't "own" it).  This will give you very smooth motion (albeit not in Real Time) with minimum work needed (you'll still need to do some).  There is a free trial so it's worth at least testing out.

However, I wouldn't advise using the Kinect 360 -- the Kinect V2 (or XBox One or whatever the heck they call it now) is much better, and does a better job capturing.  I've used both and there is no comparison.  So, again, that's a question of how much money you want to spend to ease the pain you will have in cleaning up poorer captures.

There is free software (in addition to iPisoft there is the Brekel software -- wouldn't recommend buying it but you can try it out).  A lot depends on what you are looking for in terms of quality.  Just don't expect the kind of smooth movements you get from purchasing quality motion clips and you might be satisfied.

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

First of all, thank you both, what you say is really helpful!!

1) I believe i will try the old kinect first, just to see the process and the results and then i will decide. If i want to go through with it, i will buy the new one.

Right now i work with ready motion files from the library, along with the Direct Puppet. It's really time-consuming, but if i use motion capturing and see that i need the same the amount of time for cleaning up, then i guess there is no reason to buy it, and i will save for PN...

To set up the kinect, i know that i will need a moCap program (i will look into the suggested), and i will also need a cable to connect the kinect to the PC. Would i need anything else?

2) Concerning perception neuron, the 18 neuron suit costs 1000 dollars so it's a big investment. I have seen some videos using it with iclone, but i was wondering if the pipeline is stable, seing that the plugin is still in beta (isn't it?). Furthemore, in some videos in youtube i observe jittering, whereas in other videos the motions seem fluid, and both creators say it is raw data. Do you guys know anything concerning the jittering and the stability?

Thank you so much for your help!!


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Phoenix  

I think your general plan is good -- the older Kinect plus the trial of the software I mentioned will give you an idea of the challenges of mocap with that kind of device.  As long as your movements aren't too complicated (or fast) they can be acceptable.  The newer Kinect will work about 25% better -- not a *huge* difference, but enough that you can make a judgment if it's worth investing in (it also works closer than the older one, so space isn't so much a factor).

I have zero experience with the Perception but I've read a lot and seen others work with it.  I don't think it's in beta to the extent you can't use it successfully with iClone, but I do think that by the end of the year there will be cheaper solutions.  If you are willing to spend that much money (more than a few hundred) I would definitely wait until this winter.  There are many competitors that will arrive at that time, and I truly feel we'll see good mocap suits for around $5-600 (the magic price point would be below 500, but I don't think we'll see that this year.  It will come, however).

My own plan is to use Kinect until that time.

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Thank you guys for the useful advice!!


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Phoenix  

Hey I just bought a xbox one kinect. But I skeptic to buying the kinect plugin from this and other forum reviews
about it not being that much of help than the previous version. I just saw the Pro Body 2 from Brekel that seems to be
a better buy. But thats just from one video. (I will do more research) 

http://brekel.com/brekel-pro-body-v2/
But if anyone who knows about Brekel, is it better than iclone's Kinect plug-in

I dont want to waste money from if the Kinect plug-in, really isn't much of a upgrade.