I'm just trying to get clear on what the use (to me) of Pipeline versus Pro would be.

Since I'm not designing games, the only thing I thought of that might be useful would be to take an existing scene (with animation) and export it to, say, Max so that I could use the renderer there, or perhaps combine it with some Max objects.  But it looks like you can only export FBX from an Avatar, right?  So there isn't any way to just take an entire iClone scene and export out as FBX for import to another program like Max?

If so, I think I'd just much rather bring what I need from Max to iClone -- setting up the scene in iClone (with lights and animation and even camera movement) is just so much easier than Max (despite my decades of experience there -- Max just ain't the easiest animation program in the world :>.  If I had to export in dribs and drabs I can't see much advantage in going Pipeline versus importing everything I need via Pro (and I guess I can look at Indigo if I want a better renderer, although I'm not impressed with the times).

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I believe you can export anything that is an actual 3D object.  It will not export a scene, you'll have to export each object individually and re-build the scene in your 3D app of choice.  Technically, it can be done but it'd be a horrible tedious process, especially depending on how large your scene is.  Most people will build the scene in a 3D app and only export the character to use in the other 3D app.

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liebe Grüße vidi

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Good to know, thanx vidi... I learned something new today.  

Okay, thanks all, that's what I thought.

So I think my original assumption (that Pro is all I need) is what I'm going with (at least it's getting *somewhat* simpler as I play with this stuff).

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I'm surprised about your claim that building scenes is easier in iCLone than 3DS Max.  Now granted, I do not have any 3DS Max experience, but I do have experience with some other 3D modeling apps (C4D, Lightwave, Modo, and FormZ Pro) and I hate trying to build scenes in iClone.  May I ask, why you find it easier?

If iClone had multiple viewports for a quadview, and much better zooming capabilities, I could see building something in iClone not being such a PITA, but as it is, I find it frustrating as all heck to build a scene, especially if it's a big scene. I like that it's orbit around a selected object, but sometimes I really which it'd rotate around my cursor without having an item selected. Again, especially in a big scene.

It's different strokes -- I can see that some people could use multiple viewports, but when I'm in Max I almost always just maximize (no pun intended) the current view, using perspective.  With iClone you can set a camera or even multiple cameras and switch among them to get much the same effect.

However, for the typical animation (which tends to be "person" sized) you don't need or even want a large scene.  You want, at most, a block or yard (if outside), or a room (if inside).  I guess if your animations don't run to people but more for, say, cars or spaceships (or whatever) then it's a whole different story, but I don't see iClone being particularly suited for that.  It's pretty obviously meant for character animation, which means the height of almost any scene isn't going to be much more than 20 feet or so (and, yes, there are exceptions that prove the rule).

iClone offers some pretty nice snapping and grid tools that allow you to easily create such a scene in a hurry.  And it's timeline is MUCH friendlier for character animation (I've spent years with Biped, being on both the alpha and the beta team, and it's STILL a pita to work with, albeit much better).  And don't get me started doing facial animation with Max (actually, that's the real problem -- trying to get even started with it).

It's nice to have a lot of tools, and everyone will have their own preferences, but at the end of the day I could never make many character animations I was proud of in Max and even just playing around in iClone I have some cool looking stuff (and that's only a few weeks in -- I'm guessing I will get better :>.  I miss the renderer choices in Max, but, again, doing character animation you really want speed, and it's hard to be iClone.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I tend to gravitate towards big scenes, most of them in the city.  Sure put together a couple of squares for buildings down, but it's till not enough.  Walking down a busy city street, having a conversation.  Running down a side alley (of course the alley is easy to keep small, but it depends on the camera shots).  I also tend towards far camera shots and angles to hide defects and flaws in the characters and/or animations.  Outside sequences are difficult to do (for me) in small sets as well, because the outdoors is so... big and vast.  If all I wanted was small tight shots, I'm sure it'd be easier.  But I want big, sweeping, epic camera shots.  Indoor shots are easy enough to do and keep small, but outdoor sets...  Probably one of the reasons many iClone outdoor clips are so sparse looking, with very little detail...

Well (and here I'm basing my experience, prior to retirement, in directing both television and small movies) most of the time, unless you're Abrams or Spielberg, you "cheat" anyway, even outside (you are lucky to have even one street blocked off).  But let's talk about animation, and iClone in particular.  

Here, for outdoor scenes, mother nature is your friend (and while it's not nice to fool her, it IS nice to use her to fool others).  A few trees strategically placed near the camera, can look like a forest (although, truthfully, with SpeedTree you can MAKE a forest).  Use a close mountain to block off major areas, some trees and bushes, and voila, you are suddenly Game of Thrones!  (Or not so much).

In the city remember a lot of people will "assume" -- put a billboard close to the camera and block off all the rest and folks assume there is a lot more behind.  Or, heck, use 2D backgrounds for nearly everything except stuff that's way up close.  Again, most folks won't notice the difference (and background blur is your friend). 

I actually think the big problem with most amateur animations is they try and compete with Hollywood and forget the strengths of what they are using.  You will never get something that looks as good as they can do, because the better the hobbyist software gets, the better the pro stuff will get (and they have render farms and TONS of time to work on stuff).  The best animations I have ever seen done by hobbyists are those that are small, intimate things that tell simple stories -- a boy and a girl, a girl and her dog, a boy and his alien (okay, well perhaps Spielberg already did that one :>.

If the story is compelling people will forgive a lot, so I would move in CLOSE to your characters and let them tell that story.  We react to people's faces most of all (which is why we see faces in everything -- the front of a car or airplane, or even clouds).  The faces in iClone 6 are pretty impressive for low-end software, so move in and let them talk, or emote, or whatever and once you have your audience hooked you will get away with things you never could before.

If you don't care about your characters, you don't care about what happens to them.  This even applies to action scenes, as these guys mentioned recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_19rSdEWao

Note they talk about how, even in scenes where we are pulled back to see all the action, we still need to CARE about the characters.  And, heck, that stuff with Nero in the subway station could easily be done in iClone, all without building a huge set (remember that when you are using your camera don't forget DOF and blur out a lot of the background much of the time).

In any case, I wish you the best of luck in telling whatever story you want to tell -- that's what this software is all about.

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Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

You're assuming every story being told is a character piece, but it's just not so.  There are plenty of animations that can be done without a single word being uttered, such as action shots.  Armies battling it out on the field, car chases through a busy city, shoot outs that encompass a whole city block.  With computers being as powerful as they are, there's no real reason for the old shortcut days of live filming. It's CGI, where the imagination is the limit. Flying schooners trading cannon shots over a jungle, floating islands in the sky.  Why limit yourself to close up shots, and fake a forest with only a tree or two?

Hmmm, as I read that it sounds like I'm arguing... I'm not.  I'm just saying not everything is about being up close and personal with a character or two.