Free upgrade? No. Reasonable upgrade fee? No. Discuss

Free upgrade? No. Reasonable upgrade fee? No. Discuss

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic499148.aspx

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By alfied - 4 Years Ago

I have spent thousands of dollars over the last couple of years alone on RL products, always upgrading across the board to get the most out of the product suite. Incremental and even large feature updates ship as part of that licensing agreement. At no point was I made aware that when RL decides the features being added are big enough to be considered a new product release that I would have to *buy them all over again.* It's totally unreasonable, and the marketing they are using around the langauge "free upgrade" is almost certainly illegal, both in the US and Europe.

RL create great and useful products, and Indie customers make up the bedrock of their business. This "free upgrade" and exorbitant upgrade cost for existing customers is, for me, intolerable.

I don't know who of you agree, but I feel betrayed.

By FallenNInja - 4 Years Ago

My biggest gripe with the upgrade fee is that it does not take into account the add-ons that have been previously purchased separately, now they are included with iClone8.
Don't get me wrong, having less add-ons is better overall, specially for new users that feel duped when buying only iClone just to find out that it is really hard to work with without certain add-ons.
However, iClone8 is now far more expensive than iClone7, one can assume this is because previous add-ons are now built in. 3dxchange, motion live and curve editor are now part of iClone8.

iClone7 owners now receive a $50 discount when purchasing iClone8, another $50 for purchasing iClone7.
If you have purchased any of the aforementioned add-ons, you are essentially paying for them again when you purchase iClone8 as they are not optional.

If Reallusion really wants to take care of those of most loyal customers, they would discount the purchase amount for those add-ons that were already paid for or offer some sort of discount for already owning them. Otherwise iClone8 would be better for older users if they had a version stripped of these add-ons prebuilt and allow us to reinstall them to iClone8.

By chamanouleloup - 4 Years Ago

They are introducing massive changes and as in every commercial company there must have been discussions between them to know what features could make people want to drop IC7 and CC3 for this new upgrade. (And not update this is important)
As some of the features that will be included are for me updates (the motion mixer will fix the very common "Mickael Jackson" bug where transition between two standing animations resulted into a "Moonwalk"style feet slide on the ground) others are obviously and undeniably upgrades.
Will this prevent you from using IC7 and CC3 ,of course not.
Do they know that this will create a gap between old gen and next gen users? Of course they do.
A lot of frustrating things are being solved (reach effector for the door and the fact you could now prevent arms to cross a solid when doing a motion had me go running for my credit card) and there will be the animators able to use those new features and those that will not because they will not be able to or will not want to upgrade.
And let's not speak about the huge announcements for CC4. Mixamo and Maya import (hello Auto-Rig features from both solutions) ,non humanoids avatars.....
Same thing there will be the avatar creators that will have access to this and those who won't.
If you use this for fun, you will still have fun with IC7 and CC3 for a long time.
If this is for business, the additional quality of your movies will pay for the upgrade cost in no time.

By jlittle - 4 Years Ago

Peter has stated that the "upgrade" discounted prices will be announced when iC8 and CC4 are released next year.
Any pricing you currently are viewing are not "upgrade" prices but promotional prices and special offers (i.e. buy lots of content get something free).
List price for iC8 is $599 and for CC4 is $299 or bundled is $898.
There has been no mention of upgrade pricing for plug-in's as of yet.

Jeff

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

alfied (11/3/2021)

At no point was I made aware that when RL decides the features being added are big enough to be considered a new product release that I would have to *buy them all over aga

We are at version 8 of iClone. Every major upgrade version from iClone 1 to 8 has required purchasing. This isn't a new policy. Interim updates such as from 7.0 through to 7.9 have all been free, but when a major upgrade is released it requires purchasing for an upgrade price. That has always been the case and is the same for almost every company.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

FallenNInja (11/3/2021)

However, iClone8 is now far more expensive than iClone7, one can assume this is because previous add-ons are now built in. 3dxchange, motion live and curve editor are now part of iClone8.

Motion LIVE is NOT built into iClone 8. It requires separate purchase, or if you have already bought it for iClone 7 then you will get a free upgrade.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

jlittle (11/3/2021)

There also has been no mention of upgrade pricing for plug-in's as of yet.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

The following plug-ins will get a FREE upgrade for iClone 8/CC4 if you have purchased them for iClone 7/CC3.

iClone:Motion LIVE Plug-in, all mocap profiles for Motion LIVE Plug-in, iClone Unreal Live Link, PopcornFX, Iray Render Plug-in

Character Creator:Headshot Plugin, SkinGen Premium Plug-in, Iray Render Plug-in.

By jlittle - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/3/2021)

jlittle (11/3/2021)

There also has been no mention of upgrade pricing for plug-in's as of yet.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

The following plug-ins will get a FREE upgrade for iClone 8/CC4 if you have purchased them for iClone 7/CC3.

iClone:Motion LIVE Plug-in, all mocap profiles for Motion LIVE Plug-in, iClone Unreal Live Link, PopcornFX, Iray Render Plug-in

Character Creator:Headshot Plugin, SkinGen Premium Plug-in, Iray Render Plug-in.

Thanks for that info Peter, that's great news.

Jeff

By alfied - 4 Years Ago

My issue isn't with purchasing, I am happy to do that, here are my issues:

1) This soft launch offering a 'free' upgrade is one of the most underhand and arguably illegal marketing tactics I have *ever* seen. It's just untrue. Instead, it's a 'buy this, which means you have paid for the software, we we will give you that value in free content' offer.
2) The price point at which these products are offered ($799 for iClone 8 and CC4 I believe) is not even what the eventual price may be next year, I imagine it will be higher, please prove me wrong.
3) There has been a desultory effort to offset the payments customers have made for additional tools which will now be bundled in ($50 here, $50 there)

The way companies who have a (may I just say it), more modern approach to their monetisation strategies understand that *having* users is the cornerstone of them *buying* from you, hence the rise of free update on upgraded software as standard. It seems to me that RL instead are just gouging money from indie publishers and content creators because they seem to think that we have to use your products.

The right way to have gone about this upgrade, in my opinion, would have been an email to all customers who have bought iClone 7 and CC3 software with a straightforward "here's your upgrade deal for being a great customer, we think it's fair, thanks so much for being a customer".

Instead, we feel insulted by the tiny offers made against the thousands we have invested, and we feel tricked by the "free upgrade" marketing tactics you have so very inadvisedly used at this soft launch.

By justaviking - 4 Years Ago

alfied (11/3/2021)

1) This soft launch offering a 'free' upgrade is one of the most underhand and arguably illegal marketing tactics I have *ever* seen. It's just untrue. Instead, it's a 'buy this, which means you have paid for the software, we we will give you that value in free content' offer.

At the risk of defending Reallusion...
a) How many times to we hear "buy one, get one free." Is it really "free" or is it "buy two at 50% off?" I don't see a problem with the description.
b) Would you prefer that you buy some content and that's the end of the story? Buy some stuff, and pay full price for the next version of software? Of course this deal only makes sense if they have stuff you want to buy. But if you are going to buy stuff anyway, it's a very nice bonus to get the upgrade for "free." But hey, buy and ton of content and then pay full price for iC8 if that makes you happier.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

alfied (11/3/2021)

Surely you must have seen in supermarkets offers such as "buy one get one free". Is this not a free offer either because you still have to buy one to get the second one free? And recently I bought a new laptop which came with a free case. Should I have complained that they were being underhand because the case wasn't free because I had to buy the laptop first? I do understand the frustration over upgrade pricing etc. but to call these standard marketing practises "illegal" or "underhand" is really going a bit far.

By animagic - 4 Years Ago

Sorry, this kind of offer is not unique for RL and there is nothing illegal about it. It is your right to not like it, but terms like "illegal", "underhanded", etc. are not suitable for a reasonable discussion.

That said, there is the usual confusion for me as well, because of the following from the FAQ:

What are the prices of iClone 8 and Character Creator 4?
Product Pre-sale Campaign Regular Price Upgrade Price
CC4 Spend $399+, Get CC4 for Free $299 $249
iC8 Spend $699+, Get iC8 for Free $599 $499
CC4 + iC8 Spend $799+, Get CC4+iC8 for Free $699 $599

If the upgrade price does not apply to existing users, what does it mean? This rightly gets existing users upset, as it seems that the upgrade price is only marginally better that a new purchase, which would be a deviation from past new releases.

Meanwhile, I would like to suggest another way to look at pricing.

The run of iClone 7 has been about 4.5 years. Suppose it were rent-ware @ $20/month, then you would have paid $1,080 up till now, and you would need to continue paying the monthly fee in order to keep using the software.

I have versions of iClone since IC 1.52, and they still work, although for some you would need an older Windows version.

So instead of renting, you pay an upfront license fee, which allows you to use the software. From what I've heard we don't know what that will be, but it will be a burden for some, I can see that.

I have probably spent more money than most in the 15 years that I have used RL products, but I don't think that's relevant.

What I would like is clarity about what the upgrade price will be. Is it what is listed in the FAQ or some lower price?

By ckalan1 - 4 Years Ago

What is the full purchase price for iClone 8 and CC4?
What is the upgrade price? for those who already own the pipeline version of iClone7, 3dxchange, and CC3?

By Ascensi - 4 Years Ago

I think Peter that when people see the word "upgrade" with "free" and then told they have to buy content first, they're led to believe that they must buy the content at a higher price point than the upgrade by itself in order to get their upgrade and don't realize that Reallusion also offers upgrade only options as well which can be and is seen as deceiving by many users. As a Veteran through the years , I first reacted the same way when it can time to upgrade long ago but I've since known that Reallusion also offers an upgrade only option..

I've seen the marketing words make people really sour on the iClone user group on facebook and it seems to do more harm than good. If it was advertised like: *****Buy $ ---$ content within this time and automatically receive a copy of iClone (best value) or Existing users Buy iClone upgrade on its own***** makes the sales point clear and wont disgruntle users thinking the only way to upgrade is to buy a lot of content first.

So to be fair, if the marketing is sneaky, people either see through it as deceptive or misunderstand what is being offered and instead revolt / go elsewhere - not in Reallusion's best interest.

By Darren01 - 4 Years Ago

The first RL product I purchased was iC2 around 13 years ago.

I purchased it during a promotion just prior to iC3 being released. Buy iC2 and upgrade to iC3 for free once it was released.
I've purchased every version of iClone on it's release date ever since, and heaps of other supporting RL software like various versions of 3D Exchange Pipeline, Curve Editor, content packs etc.

I've accepted the price rises with each version release as I understand costs etc go up.
But after seeing the pricing of iC8 and then Character Creator on top of that...... The problem for me is the amount it has increased by. Previous versions have had small increases in price, but iC8 has leaped significantly in price over the previous version. Many of us live in countries where our local currency exchange rate compared to the USD makes this a very expensive purchase. It's now made me seriously consider how much I can justify spending on just one of my many hobbies....

It will probably be the first version of iClone that I can't afford to upgrade to, at least until some sort of decent special deal comes up.
Hopefully iC7 will continue to be supported for some time after the release of iC8.

By Darren01 - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/3/2021)

alfied (11/3/2021)

Peter

What's done is done, we all now know it's not a free upgrade. So probably no point debating this.
However I was rather disappointed in RL's deceptive marketing ploy.... I'd expect something like this from a trashy infomercial, but thought RL might have better ethics.

I have to agree that 'GET FREE UPGRADE NOW' slogan was very misleading.
You compared the supermarkets - 'buy one get one free'.
The difference is the supermarket has been upfront with their slogan. They have stated up front, BUY ONE get one free.
RL's slogan is simply 'Get Free Upgrade Now'. I thought it might have been too good to be true, but it did immediately mislead me into thinking that iC7 users were getting a free upgrade. It's only after I clicked the link that I realised that I had been baited.

I just hope you guys reconsider using this sort of unethical marketing in the future.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

ckalan1 (11/3/2021)

What is the full purchase price for iClone 8 and CC4?
What is the upgrade price? for those who already own the pipeline version of iClone7, 3dxchange, and CC3?

If you buy them together, the full price of both iClone 8 and Character Creator 4 is $699. The upgrade price is $599.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

Darren01 (11/3/2021)

Hi Darren

I appreciate the points you make but we do have an entire page below detailing the pre-sale offer complete with an FAQ. I'm not sure how you can call that not being upfront. :ermm:

https://www.reallusion.com/3d-creation/

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

Darren01 (11/3/2021)

I've accepted the price rises with each version release as I understand costs etc go up.
But after seeing the pricing of iC8 and then Character Creator on top of that...... The problem for me is the amount it has increased by. Previous versions have had small increases in price, but iC8 has leaped significantly in price over the previous version.

Hi Darren

Are you taking into account 3DXchange? If you look at the full price cost of iClone 7, CC3 and 3DXchange 7 Pipeline against the cost of iClone 8 and CC4 (with built in 3DXchange functionality) the cost is the same. There is no increase at all. Of course if you have never purchased 3DXchange 7 Pipeline the new versions will work out more expensive.

By StormHawk Animations - 4 Years Ago

Hello everyone,

I understand where you're coming from on this whole pricing issue. Yes, they've been working hard to provide new content and to add features that enhance the users experience. Who ever thought you would be able to animate characters using W.A.S.D that's pretty cool. Obviously we know that the developers and company need to be paid for their time and effort put into the project. No doubt these are things we appreciate, if it means we get a better end product, great! We're satisfied. However, the way they broke the news to us (regarding update pricing) wasn't that great as of now.

From a community members standpoint I can see how it could be assumed that since we've received all updates throughout the IC7 & CC3 series free of charge (because we've purchased the product) IC8 and CC4 should be the same way. Since it is a major update to the programs obviously some kind of money needs to exchange hands at some point. But what's frustrating to me is the fact that we've invested perhaps a great sum of money into each of these programs and probably assets from the content/marketplace stores yet here they are again asking for several hundreds more for an upgrade. I'm not sure about you, but I simply can't afford to spend that kind of money. At the end of the day animation to me is just a hobby, I don't make any money doing it. Most likely I won't be able to buy the new upgrades at these prices, let's face it, I don't even have CC3 Pipeline edition or 3DXchange.

Something else came to my mind when thinking about this whole situation. Not sure if anyone else has mentioned anything similar but think about this. From a developers standpoint you could tell people something like "Well nothing says you have to use IC8 & CC4, you can always use IC7 and CC3 instead." Sure I'll give them that, you could absolutely just use IC7 & CC3. But what happens when you stop supporting IC7 & CC3? When a new product comes out such as IC8 all development power moves to that product. Whatever bugs exist now will continue to exist indefinitely. Additionally Reallusion stated that 3DXchange will be discontinued. If that's the case then will the cost of 3DXchange go down significantly? Probably should but don't count on it. How about assets like clothing and props? They've said plugins will update if you choose to upgrade, but will clothes and props go bad?

Another thought, let's say I have some money to spend and decide to upgrade to IC8 I'll take an educated guess and say if you upgrade one you'll need to upgrade the other (both CC and IC) because I highly doubt CC3 is going to work with IC8. Frankly it's extremely frustrating. Again we understand Reallusion is a company that needs to make money. But could said company help out those who've supported it for so long? Think about all the new indie developers who don't know that Iclone8 is about to drop and spend a few thousand dollars on Iclone7 and it's companion apps only to find out in a few months that the programs they just purchased are no longer getting support. And if they want new features they will need to pay again. Especially if the content such as props and clothing are non compatible. Hopefully something changes and stuff like this doesn't continue to happen. Because if things like this continue to happen people that have long supported Reallusion might just leave.

By similarly - 4 Years Ago

Thank you, Peter for taking time to answer questions. I appreciate it.
My thoughts:
1. I wish the discount for upgrading was better. It's 15%, which isn't bad at all. I just wish CC4 and IC8 weren't $600 just for the upgrade. I know I'm going to end up buying it, and I'm not looking forward to it.
2. Reallusion has ALWAYS offered the deal "buy this much stuff, get (the next version of iclone or whatever) free". I've never had a problem with it. I mean, if I go to a bakery to buy a dozen donuts and they tell me: "buy a dozen, get another dozen", I'm not going to complain. If I buy Reallusion stuff, I still get the stuff I wanted AND I get the next version of software. Sweet deal. Except, I own so much stuff from the content store, I'm not sure I could buy enough stuff I actually wanted to make up the price to get the deal.
3. Peter, honestly, the page IC8 and CC4 needs to be better. I looked at the roadmap and it didn't really capture my attention nor really make me want to buy it. THEN, I watched the youtube, and now I want it. I can't wait to see what's going to happen.
4. I feel like I JUST bought IC7 ... yet from wikipedia, I see now it's been almost 5 years! How did THAT happen? IC7 was released in 2017! Yeah, I guess that's not a bad release schedule.

By FallenNInja - 4 Years Ago

Seems to me that we are being charged extra for the 3dxchange functionality without getting a discount for those of us who already have it.

By Darren01 - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/3/2021)

Darren01 (11/3/2021)

Peter,
Go to the iClone product page. The first thing that grabs your attention is the eye catching banner at the top of the page catching banner, stating
CC4 and iC8
'GET FREE UPGRADE' directly underneath.

Then again at the top right hand corner of the screen another button that states 'FREE UPGRADE'

There isn't even a disclaimer directly under the headline that states 'terms and conditions apply'. In fact you have to either click the link or scroll to the very bottom of the page before you realise that you've just been baited. A more suitable headline would be 'Free Upgrade with eligible product/content purchases'

That is what I'm referring to. It is deliberately deceptive.and unethical. As said, I just hope RL doesn't repeat this sort of unethical marketing in the future. I'd expect it from one of those grubby late night infomercials, but expect better from Reallusion.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Actually, I wrote a long article on this subject, on another subject.

Perfect for those on a promotional budget.
You buy a lot of content, and you get the programs for free.

However, for those who cannot take advantage of the promotion, the upgrade fees are really high.

For those who have the CC3 Pipeline, iClone 7 and 3DChange 7 Pipeline programs at hand, the upgrade fees should have been adjusted accordingly.

If this has not been determined yet, it is the right thing to give exactly what will happen and the upgrade prices.

I have written a few options below, if only one of them is possible, of course, it will relieve individual users like us.

1- Pricing can be adjusted according to the exchange rates of the countries.
2- Or for old users, the expenses of the last 2-3 months can be included. (We can top up the remaining amount on it)
3- Or Specify upgrade fees to all pipeline owners at an affordable price.
4- If you are not doing any of them, at least if you extend the promotion period to 5-6 months, we may have a chance.

We all know that your company needs income to survive.
But with the current adjustments, you've wiped out everyone with a low budget like us.

If you hadn't offered me specially defined discounted products within 2 months, I could spend right now.
I spent $400, if I hadn't received these offers, I certainly had no intention of purchasing any product.
Why did you encourage buying other products 1-2 months before the promotion?

You had such a promotional plan, but you did not stop your incentives for people to buy products before the promotion.
If you have made these incentives then why not start the promotion from 2 months ago.
In short, the only reason for the 400 dollars I spent in 2 months was because you offered me a discounted product and rushed me by keeping this time limited to a few days. I don't have any complaints about the products I bought 6 months ago, but 2 months ago it is a very very different situation, is it unfair to think that this is far from goodwill?

I didn't buy them because I needed them.Because you offered a discount, I bought it in case I might need it in the future and none of them have even worked for me yet.

By Amper Sand - 4 Years Ago

@Peter

My question is not ironical: why RL does not offer also a "pre-sale"? I mean "Between november-december, you can buy the iClone/CC with the discounted prices of $600...", instead of saying "if between november-december, if you buy RL products of $600, you will get iClone/CC for free"? I think, in my opinion would me more accurate if not more "honest" approach.

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

"Seems to me that we are being charged extra for the 3dxchange functionality without getting a discount for those of us who already have it."

You are paying for new 64 bit, integrated 3DX functionality in a NEW version of Iclone.

Your old 32 version of 3DX still works

but was a separate optional module that you chose to purchase

and was offered with no promises about its functionality not being

rolled into a future version of iclone.

you are not owed any money or discount because its functionality

is added to a new version of iclone as you are not forced to buy the new version to get 3DX functionality.

Reallusion is one of the few major 3D Character animation Software still using the legacy Perpetual license model.

Now they could go to an Autodesk style monthly subscription

and you get all of the new features with each release as long as you keep making your sub payments

But You people cant have it both ways...sorry.

In my opinion reallusion's , often confusing Ad hoc module system has hindered its sales and confused many people.

We need a unified application ,under $1000 USD,

that combines the features of Iclone8 ,CC4 pipeline and 3Dxchange

and maybe head shot with Alembic export and the UE4 Live link

and Blender& unity auto setup included.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

People can voice their complaints.
This is everyone's natural right.
This is RL's official forum site and those who do not have a budget and want to use the new system are trying to make their voices heard.

RL accepts or not, it's their choice. That's why I don't think it's right to judge those who express dissatisfaction here.
Those who write reviews here do not target anyone personally.
The programs are all in one, and I think it's the right approach to say that it's perfect and deserves its money.
But saying that RL doesn't owe you anything is a different approach.
Nobody's saying that RL owes them anyway. And vice versa. Nobody owes anybody anything.
It is not a crime for people to demand more favorable conditions according to their budgets.
After all, these people are customers and there are those who invest heavily here.
These types of sentences can lead to the emergence of other prejudices.
Instead of doing good to the company, you do harm.

Speaking for myself, I only use UE and the only reason I got CC was because of the characters.
Later, I bought it thinking that I could move the characters with iClone. Honestly, I don't need such big animations.
I already have a lot of character animations in UE.
As an extra, character animation can be created with UE and will be further developed in the future.
Since I have other projects, I haven't even used the programs yet.

Since I like the features of new programs, I would like to use them like everyone else. But for someone in my situation (I mean, are the programs really necessary for me) these numbers seem too high.
I can continue with iC7 and CC3 very comfortably. This is not a problem for me. As I said, everyone wants a new model car.
Maybe I'll buy the programs in the future, I don't know, but for a new model car, of course, if I have an affordable chance, I would like to use it.

This is a huge risk if we talk about the subscription model.
For a system to switch to a subscription model, it must reach industrial standards.
Otherwise, it will collapse quickly.
For example, I do not use any subscription products.
Although ZBrush is in industrial standards, I use 3DCoat and it is sufficient.
But since all corporate companies use ZBrush, individual users like me are not so important to them.
However, they think they have to keep the PERPETUAL license for individuals and small companies.

Companies that are already in the subscription model continue to issue perpetual licenses for individual users and small companies, with the exception of Adobe and a few brands.

By FallenNInja - 4 Years Ago

Cool story man. I’m still allowed to voice my displeasure with their change in pricing model by including previously separate plugins into the software. It’s at my discretion if I buy it or not.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

So in nutshell...

600 bucks to upgrade.
I bought full package less than a yr ago. Including curves and xchange. Prob $1500
Seems like im buying xchange again.
Im sure i got offered IC7 standalone for $150????
So thats biggest kick in teeth
Hope RL can read customers gripes. Maybe bring upgrade price down.
Take into account 3dxchange and curves (if u bought this for $500 more)
Xchange was the big cost. Not iclone. Iclone 7 was $150 when i bought it (code offer)

So ic7= 150
Ic8= 700

Doesnt take genius to work out we are paying 550 for intergration of xchange & curves which a lot of us have already bought!!!

This is my gripe.
I do hope RL take a look at this and can offer something.
The maths dont make sense.

By oonabe - 4 Years Ago

yeah, that's exactly the problem. With most companies if you purchase the full version of their software future updates are a fraction of the full price you paid for that software, with CC4 and iClone8 customers who purchased CC3 and iClone7 aren't paying a fraction of the full versions they've already bought but actually paying 1.25x to 2.5x that amount of money:

CC3 full regular price = $199 > CC4 upgrade price = $249
iClone 7 full regular price = $199 > iClone 8 upgrade price = $499

even when iClone 8 and CC4 include the features of 3dxchange this isn't a fair upgrade price for users that already own CC3 and iClone7 because most of the features in the new versions were already paid for in the previous versions. Not to mention customers who already paid for 3dxchange and the curve editor.

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

Speaking for myself, I only use UE and the only reason I got CC was because of the characters.

Later, I bought it thinking that I could move the characters with iClone. Honestly, I don't need such big animations.Later, I bought it thinking that I could move the characters with iClone. Honestly, I don't need such big animations.

I already have a lot of character animations in UE.I already have a lot of character animations in UE.

As an extra, character animation can be created with UE and will be further developed in the future.As an extra, character animation can be created with UE and will be further developed in the future.

Since I have other projects, I haven't even used the programs yet.Since I have other projects, I haven't even used the programs yet.

Since I like the features of new programs, I would like to use them like everyone else. But for someone in my situation (I mean, are the programs really necessary for me) these numbers seem too high.Since I like the features of new programs, I would like to use them like everyone else. But for someone in my situation (I mean, are the programs really necessary for me) these numbers seem too high.

I can continue with iC7 and CC3 very comfortably.I can continue with iC7 and CC3 very comfortably.

After the initial excitement of the IC 8 preview

I asked myself if IC8 could replace Blender in my current Pipeline

and the answer was a definitive ..No.

like yourself, I only need iclone for the easy

base layer Character animation.

But I also have Daz studio and the diffeomorphic plugin for Blender where I can retarget Mixamo directly to My Daz genesis people inside blender.

Daz studio also has a free Alembic exporter.

I can use my old 3DX program to retarget Imotion to my Daz figures and export them as Almebic to Blender with Zero fidelity loss of the joints etc.

For me ,all roads must lead to Blender because that is where I create my content& environments.

that is where I have my particle effects and flip fluid simulation

and rigid body Destruction physics.

I dont Need an $$$expensive$$$ NIVIDIA RTX GPU.

I can render on a CPU only machine ,with Blender

I can easly mix two different Character ecosystems in one scene

(CC3 to Blender& Daz Genesis to Blender)

The new render features of IC8 stillpale in comparison to EEVEE

to say nothing of CyclesX.

That said the Iclone pricing is what it is.

The new features make it more attractive.

But Reallusion,and it users, must realize that they have competition

in the market costing much less.

By oonabe - 4 Years Ago

thanks for sharing this, for many users like me, who already own iclone 7 + the curve editor + 3dxchange there is really not that much value on the new update as to pay such a big amount of money, I'm already looking for alternatives not just because of the current update prices but also because of what this pricing politics are telling me. I can't rely on a software system that could be this hard on my wallet every one or two years

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Reallusion's current promotion is actually very good.Those who have a budget of 800 dollars can definitely buy it without thinking, after all, you will have the programs without paying even $1, just by purchasing the content.
Honestly, I wouldn't even consider it if I was on a budget.
I am not sure it will be suitable in 2 months.But it doesn't make sense to pay $600 just for the upgrade amounts.
If CC3 + iClone 7 + 3Dxchange = covers 80% of the total features in iClone 8, then paying $600 for the remaining 20% (maybe much less ) new features is really over my budget. (Especially for those who don't need these programs much like me)

When I review the Reallusion sales policies, I'm also sure that if you wait for 1 year, you will get a more affordable upgrade with a discount of close to 50% ($300) and maybe with extra coupons or similar promotions.
But no one wants to wait too long to drive a new model car.

I think this will be a disadvantage in the future.
When you participate in the promotion, you will get both $800 content and free programs.

Those who can't attend because they can't afford it, I don't think they'll pay $600 just for a program upgrade without any content, when they can afford it. Even if it is 50% off, they will probably wait for the gift campaigns.
Because no matter how much they pay for program upgrades, they will feel it as a loss.

And it's not just 600 bucks, I'm not sure, but upgrading add-ons can be costly.
If the plugin upgrade is stated to be free within the campaign, it points to the possibility that there will be a paid upgrade later.

By chriswoodrum2011 - 4 Years Ago

I own a Reallusion discord server with hundreds of members. I can tell you most everyone is upset with the price of the upgrade. Most think that the price needs to be pro-rated based on what programs we already own. If you own the curve editor you get a credit for that, If you own 3dxchange you get another credit for that and so on. If they dont do something to take care of its existing customers....well they may lose a bunch. I have always been a positive voice for them and will continue doing that, but we just want to be treated fairly.

By planetstardragon - 4 Years Ago

now that the 3DXchange features are being added to both ic8 and cc4, and both prices increased because of that, technically we are in effect buying 3DXchange 2 times. where as if the 3DXchange features was purchased separately as an individual plug in, we'd only have to buy it once and apply it to both softwares, like the iray plug in.

By animagic - 4 Years Ago

planetstardragon (11/4/2021)

If I understand correctly, the 3DXchange features are distributed over the two applications with everything related to characters going to CC. So it is different from the Iray plugin, which has shared functionality.

By planetstardragon - 4 Years Ago

Good point, but then whats driving up the price of iclone so high ?

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

There is also an imbalance in promotion limits.
New Customers (CC4 + iC8): Regular Price: $700, Promotion $800.
Old Customers (CC4 + iC8) : Upgrade Price: $600, Promotion $800.

Even the promotion limits are the same.
Because we are old customers, we have to spend more than new customers
Moreover, even though they have not spent any money before.
At least for old customers, the promotion limit can be reduced to $600 or the last 3-4 months' spending can be included in the promotion. (For those with all pipelines)
So old customers have no value or privileges?

We all know that those who cannot take advantage of this promotion ($800 worth of content and free program copies) will not pay 600 dollars for the upgrade afterwards.

Of course, instead of paying $700, the new user can have both new programs and a lot of content by paying $800.
Consider those who pay close to $600-$1000 for these programs, they do not have any advantages.
All the money they pay is wasted.

When I first bought these programs (last year), I knew that iClone8 would be released.
Conversations about it etc. I had already read it.
With the experience I gained from the upgrade policies of other companies, I thought that I would pay a maximum of 150-200 dollars upgade fee.But what happened? It's an insane figure like $600.

According to my observations for 1 year, Reallusion is constantly focused on gaining new customers.
This leads to the loss of old customers while gaining new customers.
However, he could make adjustments to retain his old customers while gaining new customers.

But I would like to point out that those with a budget should definitely not miss this promotion.
If you buy these contents later, you will pay the same money.

By rollasoc - 4 Years Ago

FallenNInja (11/3/2021)

My biggest gripe with the upgrade fee is that it does not take into account the add-ons that have been previously purchased separately, now they are included with iClone8.

It might be worse.

So 3d exchange in now included in Iclone 8, which kind of explains, in part, the massive price hike. So I would kind of expect (closer to release) that if you have iclone 7 the upgrade will be X and if you have iclone 7 and 3dx it would be a bigger discount. Will there be a difference in upgrade price for pipleine version verses non pipeline version?

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

planetstardragon (11/5/2021)

Good point, but then whats driving up the price of iclone so high ?

The inclusion of 3DXchange Pipeline features in iClone 8 and CC4 is why you see a price rise in the base products. However, as I've explained elsewhere, the cost of iClone 7, CC3 Pipeline and 3DXchange 7 Pipeline is the same as iClone 8 plus CC4. There has been no overall rise if you include 3DXchange Pipeline into the equation.

By FallenNInja - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/5/2021)

planetstardragon (11/5/2021)

Good point, but then whats driving up the price of iclone so high ?

Okay Peter then why are owners of 3DXchange essentially being forced to pay for 3DXchange again in order to use iClone8.

Again to those who defend this, I’m saying that no one is forced to buy it but if one were to buy it and already own 3DXchange, you are defaulted to paying for it again.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

The RL team does not seem to take a step back on this issue. Exchange rates differ significantly. If nothing is possible, you can include our last 3 months' expenses in the promotion.
We are already constantly shopping and you somehow get these fees.

Adobe's Annual plan, prepaid — US$599.88/yr.
In our country, Annual plan, prepaid — US$231.94/yr.

Even less than half. A 3-year subscription is taken from Adobe for $700.
I've written this example so you can understand how your desired $800 is an exorbitant figure for people in countries with high exchange rates.
So imagine you pay 3x = $2,400.

In other words, what $800 is worth to you, $270 looks the same to us.
Another example; A $40 game at Epic games, $13.5 here.

I've spent over $1,000 and you can see how serious my payout is.
These numbers may not be important for a corporate company, but they are close to impossible for individual employees.

By famgur - 4 Years Ago

This was a good post, And is what I was on point with. I saw the upgrade offer, 600$ for an upgrade for both is high but the software does look amazing and I will be upgrading one way or another.

its part of my pipeline as Maya is just been outdated to my workflow, BUT DAM 10$ for autorig lmao. JUST LEARN HOW TO RIG IT REALLY IS EASY TO RIG.

RL knows we about to get another STIMULUS CHECK.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Hey guys
Ive had enough of this im giving my comp with rtx 3090 away for free...

To get my computer for free simply buy ALL these items from Nov 1st - Dec 31st

Monitor $90
Keyboard & mouse $25
Case $40
Graphic Card $1500
Motherboard & ryzen 7 $250
Ssd + hard drives $200

Hurry, this free offer wont last forever.

By similarly - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/5/2021)

planetstardragon (11/5/2021)

Good point, but then whats driving up the price of iclone so high ?

As I've said in another thread:
iClone 8 and CC4, compared to iclone 7, cc3 and 3dxchange, is about 22% cheaper. The upgrade cost is 7% more expensive. Overall, the upgrade discount went from 38% to 14%. However it was I managed to get such a magnificent discount upgrading last time, this time, the upgrade will cost me twice as much.

So, yes, in truth, compared to the base cost of ic7, cc3 pipeline and 3dxchange 7 pipeline, ic8 and cc4 are actually less expensive. However, although a 7% increase in upgrade cost doesn't sound like much, because of the lack of special offers to help bring down the price further, it would cost me twice as much to upgrade.

Is this the future of iclone? Are we going to someday see a magnificent product, renamed and rebranded Reallusion Cinematic Experience Pro that will be used to make AAA game cutscenes and cgi for blockbuster movies, but will be so far out of reach for the average consumer that it ceases to be the affordable tool for hobbyists and amateurs that it once was?

Wouldn't it be better to LOWER the price, try to reach a LARGER market and get profits through increasing unit sales rather than simply focusing on a narrower and narrower market?

Honestly, I understand. If I were making a product, I would much rather hear people say that my tools were very expensive, but that they were outstanding and unmatched tools for professionals, used to make AAA games and blockbuster movies, rather than hear that my tools are just pretty good tools, affordably priced for amateurs and hobbyists. I get it. But that road doesn't lead anywhere but to a very good but outrageously expensive tool marketed to a very, very small number of people.

By animagic - 4 Years Ago

yepkoo (11/5/2021)

The RL team does not seem to take a step back on this issue. Exchange rates differ significantly. If nothing is possible, you can include our last 3 months' expenses in the promotion.

You have to give them some time to think it over...:unsure:

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Hope so .
Id be happy for them to look at customers who purchased xchange AND curves.

Maybe offer something.
11 months ive had it and now this.
Also spent 100s on marketpkace , skin gen, face maker thingy (forgot name)... loadsa assets, plus actorcore.

I even got excited and thought i may of got some credit for these purchases. But alas my $700 target is at $0.

By steelborn00 - 4 Years Ago

I paid 460 for 2 more plugins a month ago, and when I found out about this 400-800 usd upgrade offer, I browsed all 3 stores to see, if I could buy more plugins, but sadly I had to notice that I have everything you sell, thus I'm unable to purchase the amount required for the free upgrade, it would be generous if you also accepted purchases in the past year, given that I cannot meet the requirements you set for the aforementioned upgrade. I spent around 900 usd just this year.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

steelborn00 (11/7/2021)

Unfortunately when a start date for an offer is set there will always be some customers who purchased shortly before that date. And if we were to move the free offer back to say the date you purchased, what about the customer who purchased the week before that? There will always be someone who feels cheated and sadly it is unavoidable. It is also worth remembering that the release is still four months away so you still have a long time with the software you have already purchased. Plus all your Plug-in purchases will be upgraded for free, so the $460 you spent two months ago will not be wasted by any means.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/5/2021)

Maybe offer something.
11 months ive had it and now this.
Also spent 100s on marketpkace , skin gen, face maker thingy (forgot name)... loadsa assets, plus actorcore.

To be fair 11 months is quite a long time to have your software and you still have four months to the next release. In addition, all your Marketplace, Content Store and ActorCore purchases will still be usable with the new versions.

Look at companies like Corel (there are many others) who release a new version of their Paintshop Pro or Painter software every year. Some of these yearly releases only add a couple of new features yet they still charge a hefty sum to upgrade.

However, with iClone we have gone from version 7.0 through to version 7.93 over four years and haven't charged anything for the upgrades, and many of those upgrades included features some companies would consider releasing a whole new version for. So while I understand the frustration being felt, I also think it's worth looking at the positives rather than just the negatives.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/7/2021)

armondtanz (11/5/2021)

Maybe offer something.
11 months ive had it and now this.
Also spent 100s on marketpkace , skin gen, face maker thingy (forgot name)... loadsa assets, plus actorcore.

Hi Peter;

I bought all of Corel's programs the other day (2021) for $30. (humblebundle)

I would have a few questions.

1- Will those who cannot participate in this promotion pay additional fees for plugins when they upgrade later?
Is the free plugin upgrade limited to this promotion only?
Also, what are the plugin upgrade fees estimated?
Will it be like a completely new sale?

2- Isn't there a certainty for those who shop for $400 or $800 for the promotion?
What is the announcement for?
What is the guarantee for this?
"Qualified members will be officially announced and contacted via email after the promotional period ends, around January 20th, 2022."
I just don't own the mocap and profiles and don't want to buy them.
It says $79 on my promo page, when I make it for $400, will I have it when the CC4 comes out for sure?
I will buy content.

3- Is there a requirement to purchase add-ons and/or software for the promotion?
Is it enough just to buy content?

4- And finally, are there any extra enhancements to the plugins?
For example, is popcorn exported?
Is there a demo page where we can see the new features of the plugins?

5- Do you have any work on filtering import and export products for Smart gallery?This can be very frustrating at times.I have to go to cart by pressing BUY button to find out what it is, RL policy :)

I can't afford to shop for $800, at least I'll push my budget for $400 for the cc4.
Honestly, I don't want to experience any surprises later.
Because that's a pretty high amount of money for me.
Since I don't have mocap profiles, I don't make iclone plugins much of a problem. (Glad I didn't buy it :) There is only popcorn)
As far as I know, Iray will be upgraded automatically as it is the same as CC4.

Thank you

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

I dont want to come across as rude or ungrateful.
But
-i have have been on many youtube channels
-i have read a comment on this post about their discord channel (100s of users)
-i have read ALL the comments on this post

Im not sure what 'positive' comments or feedback you want me to focus on but let me tell you from existing customers viewpoint your negative feedback is like a tsunami.

You need to take into account the little things like ppl like me, for one, who has always tried to counter act negative comments about the 'build your own software' format you got. I for one think this is a good idea.
A lot of ppl think its RL charging for everything and grinding money outta customers. I have calmed down many an argument by letting ppl know, 'you only really need IC7-Xch+CC3 , maybe look at the other add ons and plug ins later on'

Im just going to leave it now. Never ever comment on the great RL. I believe im paying for XChange and curves ONCE AGAIN .
You could of took this into account.

You could of took what customers have bought over 6 months or a year and offered them something, ANYTHING??.

I even read one post that said...
"i was tempted to buy IC8 but after reading the feedback , im not too sure i want to buy a piece of sotfware where im not sure if im gonna pay 100s & 100s more down the line"

In the UK, the broadband companies got a backlash for this. Disgruntled existing customers feeling like they're getting nothing for being an existing customer!!!

https://www.realwire.com/releases/UK-businesses-are-failing-to-listen-to-their-customers-as-10-million-switch-to-the-competition

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

Hi Peter,

I would like to know also the following:

1 - The taxes added to the final value also counts to the "promotion"?
2 - Where can I see how much value we already have accumulated?
3 - Upgrades to Export license also counts?
4 - The free plugin updates are free any time or we have additional fees if we can't upgrade in the upgrade window?

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

facr73 (11/7/2021)

Think peter is going to be VERY VERY busy over this xmas period.... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

By FAITH BASED GAMES - 4 Years Ago

When I saw this I was like YAY....FREE UPGRADES!!!!

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/498edad6-cac0-4a19-885c-b405.jpg

Then I read what I have to do....I feel like this!

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/53c196c3-b756-4835-84aa-272e.png

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/7/2021)

Hi...

If you are referring to the comments I made, I never mentioned positive comments. I was referring to positive actions like giving 4 years of free upgrades to iClone 7. :ermm:

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Hi Peter
I asked a few questions yesterday, I would appreciate if you can answer if possible.

Thanks

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

All i ask for as admin / moderator for RL is you pass this outcry back to the relevant PR/Marketing personnel, because all this negative outcry is not good image and is hurting your brand going foward.

I notice online there is a massive brand loyalty. Apple & Samsung. Windows & Mac, Maya-C4D , Unreal-Unity...

Im sure a hell of a lot of this bias is gauged by what they hear online. If they see a company who have the tag of 'penny pinching', 'Free Upgrade Baiting', 'They ignore concerns of existing customers'

Have u not heard of a marketing phenomena of 'Horns & Halos'
Where a celebrity or product is either a product enhancer, like: Kylie Jenner, Adele, Tom Hardy, Dwayne Johnson...
Or someone has a really bad reputation: Amber Heard, Trump (to dems), Alex Baldwin

Imagine me saying to my young daughter 'hey, i got you a NOKIA for xmas' , Shed be mortified, she wants a apple fone like her mom and sum of her friends.

My God this is not good, Within a week you got 6 pages of 100% disgruntled customers.
Whats this post gonna look like in March-April-May before the launch?.

You also say ... 11 months is a long time???
Imagine how many customers spent $1000+ with your company in 2021, image within a year sayin, 'sorry bro, we need another $800'... Just messy as hell!!!

Where is the face palm emoji???

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Honestly, I'm having problems just because I can't afford 800 dollars due to the exchange rate in our country.
I guess my lucky point is that I haven't purchased any of the major content yet.

CC Essential Clothing & Fabric
Hair & Beard Builder Combo
A: Apocalypse Combo etc.

I bought the iray plugin yesterday.

I was going to buy these ingredients anyway, but not in 2 months, maybe longer.
So if I push my budget too much, I can spend $400 at most for the CC4.

However, I did ask Peter some questions, specifically "Qualified members will be officially announced and contacted via email after the promotional period ends, around January 20th, 2022." what does it mean?
Don't those who make the required spending amounts already qualify for the free upgrade?
I've asked the same question on another thread and I can't seem to get an answer.
So this option confused me.

By FallenNInja - 4 Years Ago

yepkoo (11/8/2021)

iray plugin is definitely not worth it. It is not compatible with popcornfx and has issues with rendering opacity layers as black when characters are not near the 0,0,0 position on the scene. That plus the slow rendering speed. You would be much better off using the new omniverse connector which looks leagues above the iclone renderer and is much faster than iray, especially if you have RTX.

By Chuffinmonkey - 4 Years Ago

Also, for some reason in the last few weeks Reallusion has started to add on 20% tax for UK customers. That's on top of the usual price so UK customers now have to pay an extra 20% when purchasing anything from Reallusion stores. That's about £120 on top of the upgrade price.
:(

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Chuffinmonkey (11/9/2021)

Yea. Thats just unbelievable. This upgrade offer is slipping further and further away.
I notice you cant buy actorcore or marketplace its only CONTENT STORE...

I was eyeing up iphone face plug in.
Im not even sure if that comes under this offer?

REALLUSION
=
REAL-CONFUSION

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

Chuffinmonkey (11/9/2021)

Tax rates are decided by individual countries. Reallusion doesn't have any say in this. If the UK government changed the tax rate to 10% then we would only add that amount on.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/9/2021)

I was eyeing up iphone face plug in.
Im not even sure if that comes under this offer?

It does. :)

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/9/2021)

armondtanz (11/9/2021)

I was eyeing up iphone face plug in.
Im not even sure if that comes under this offer?

It does. :)

I think im getting to the bottom of this.
So any software? any plug in?
$800 spend will = IC8+CC4

Im hoping this is last question...

Whats this? Customers will be contacted on jan 20th? to see if they have qualified?

Im very very suspicious of Reallusions marketing. Sorry but that is how u guys have set up your stall?

Reallusion
=
Real-confusion

In a nutshell if i spend $800 on face mocap + content store and my figure goes past $800 is this a guarantee for upgrades? or will i be contacted and have a possibility of rejection?

Also you have mocap animations (in content store) like the cartoon walks and the Fighting packs, do these come under ACTORCORE or are these part of the CONTENT STORE offer?

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/288bb0d4-02af-4a4a-9c8a-0877.jpg

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

And for me is 23% in taxes.

That's a reason I push back my investment. I have been supporting RL buying stuff but now with taxes the price is even higher than the standard price without promotions. I'm only using IClone as a hobby and now it's even more expensive with those taxes.
It should be possible to costumers that are outside of Reallusion marketspace to have some form to get the products in equal terms.

I think we are now been, in some sort of a way, punished to get a software that doen't exist in our country and pay pornographic taxes. Being an enthusiast and hobbyist nowadays is even worst than before!
And with the prices and the taxes I have to put aside one of the things I like to do. But I still have IClone 7...

Greets.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Final post.

Since I will pay the software upgrade fee (perhaps separately for plugins) later, I decided to complete the CC4+iC8 promotion by pushing my budget to the maximum.
I was already going to buy the assets I bought in the future (maybe within a year, I just had to buy very quickly)

Qualified notification is not a problem, I think, when you complete the required limit, you are automatically qualified and the name of the program you are entitled to is written as a notification.

There is also an Elite Membership, which was not mentioned and I realized later, and this coupon gives you a 40% discount in 2022, which looks perfect as a +gift.

I think push your budget as hard as you can and don't miss this promotion.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

its just making me depressed now. Hella lot of money. Especially when youve had it for less than a year and spent $1800+ already?

Imagine spending 800 bucks and they send you a notification on 20th Jan

"Dear Custumer, we have worked out the xchange rate and taxes and noticed you have missed out by 64cents, ($799.36), You will have to purchase FULL upgrade, Have a nice day!!!!!'

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/9/2021)

That's why I asked these questions:

"I would like to know also the following:

1 - The taxes added to the final value also counts to the "promotion"?

2 - Where can I see how much value we already have accumulated?

3 - Upgrades to Export license also counts?

4 - The free plugin updates are free any time or we have additional fees if we can't upgrade in the upgrade window?

Greets,
facr

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

The amount you spend is shown in the link below.
https://www.reallusion.com/member/promotion.aspx

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

FallenNInja (11/8/2021)

You're right,I didn't pay attention.
I reviewed it and started the return process.
I will buy a more efficient product instead.

Thank you

By Chuffinmonkey - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/9/2021)

Chuffinmonkey (11/9/2021)

Tax rates are decided by individual countries. Reallusion doesn't have any say in this. If the UK government changed the tax rate to 10% then we would only add that amount on.

But the 20% was never added on before it was part of the price. So if I purchased 1000 DA points up until a few days ago it was $10, now it's $12. The 20% was never added on before. Why now?

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/9/2021)

Im hoping this is last question...

Whats this? Customers will be contacted on jan 20th? to see if they have qualified?

This is just to confirm you have qualified. However, you can check this at any time by clicking the link below.

https://www.reallusion.com/member/promotion.aspx

In a nutshell if i spend $800 on face mocap + content store and my figure goes past $800 is this a guarantee for upgrades? or will i be contacted and have a possibility of rejection?

If you spend $799+ on purchases from the Software Store or Content Store then you will be eligible. Note: Purchases from the Marketplace, ActorCore or DA Points DO NOT count.

But again you can keep check on your total by clicking the link I gave above.

Also you have mocap animations (in content store) like the cartoon walks and the Fighting packs, do these come under ACTORCORE or are these part of the CONTENT STORE offer?

If they are in the Content Store then they will count. It is only actors or motions purchased from the ActorCore page below that do not count.

https://actorcore.reallusion.com

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

facr73 (11/9/2021)

That's why I asked these questions:
I would like to know also the following:
1 - The taxes added to the final value also counts to the promotion

EDIT: It appears taxes are not included in the total spent..

2 - Where can I see how much value we already have accumulated?

https://www.reallusion.com/member/promotion.aspx

3 - Upgrades to Export license also counts?

Yes.

4 - The free plugin updates are free any time or we have additional fees if we can't upgrade in the upgrade window?

Whichever way you get iClone 8 and CC4, the Plug-ins will be upgraded for free. That is even if you upgrade once iClone 8 and CC4 releases.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

Chuffinmonkey (11/10/2021)

But the 20% was never added on before it was part of the price. So if I purchased 1000 DA points up until a few days ago it was $10, now it's $12. The 20% was never added on before. Why now?

This is not my department but I would imagine the change was forced upon us to avoid breaking the law in that particular country.

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

Thanks Peter for the clarifications!

Greets!

By 0oseven - 4 Years Ago

Deleted Post

By 0oseven - 4 Years Ago

FallenNInja (11/5/2021)

Peter (RL) (11/5/2021)

planetstardragon (11/5/2021)

Good point, but then whats driving up the price of iclone so high ?

The problem here is that the exchange pipeline "included " in CC8 is described as "limited ". IT FAILS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THAT LIMITATION IS .
Does it mean you STILLl need the full blown plug in ? [ $499 for those that dont have it ]

Note - I was going to put a link to the page that had the specs for IC8 but cant find it again which is in keeping with the whole Reallusion "thing" whether it be website , software, marketing plans etc etc.
Described in one word - CONFUSING !!

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

0oseven (11/10/2021)

Not sure if it will be sold as a separate add-on, but it sounds unlikely, then it wouldn't make sense for them to include 3DXchange in iClone 8.
Moreover, not only itself, but also the price is integrated into iClone 8 :) So it would be illogical.
But I'm wondering if it's compatible with the 3DXchange iClone 8 we have.

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/10/2021)

facr73 (11/9/2021)

That's why I asked these questions:
I would like to know also the following:
1 - The taxes added to the final value also counts to the promotion

I believe it is total spent, but you might want to confirm this by clicking the link below after making a purchase or by contacting Customer Support.

Just to add my experience. I have tested an upgrade license and the taxes value isn't included in the value for the promotion, only the sales price

facr

By CtrlZ - 4 Years Ago

I believe cc3 will be limited (only avatars) and iC8 for props and animation. Full function when you own both.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Just to add my experience. I have tested an upgrade license and the taxes value isn't included in the value for the promotion, only the sales price

facr[/quote]

Damn!!!! This cut just keeps on gettin deeper...

Ok. I think weve established 100% facts about the money in bank for 'free upgrade'.

-cant purchase actorcore or marketplace
-can upgrade from standard license to export.
-20% tax is NOT included (ridiculous!!!)
-Any plug in / software / content store...

Still not sure about any offers or codes? When is black friday?
Wonder how that will work?

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Okay Peter then

The problem here is that the exchange pipeline "included " in CC8 is described as "limited ". IT FAILS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THAT LIMITATION IS .
Does it mean you STILLl need the full blown plug in ? [ $499 for those that dont have it ]

Note - I was going to put a link to the page that had the specs for IC8 but cant find it again which is in keeping with the whole Reallusion "thing" whether it be website , software, marketing plans etc etc.
Described in one word - CONFUSING !!

Ive updated my bookmark page from
REALLUSION
to
REAL-CONFUSION

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/11/2021)

Just to add my experience. I have tested an upgrade license and the taxes value isn't included in the value for the promotion, only the sales price

facr

Damn!!!! This cut just keeps on gettin deeper...

Ok. I think weve established 100% facts about the money in bank for 'free upgrade'.

-cant purchase actorcore or marketplace
-can upgrade from standard license to export.
-20% tax is NOT included (ridiculous!!!)
-Any plug in / software / content store...

Still not sure about any offers or codes? When is black friday?
Wonder how that will work?

Just to clarify:
The upgrade for export license counts, not the added taxes.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

facr73

I think the only question left is what about codes or sales offer, especially Blk/Friday?

I bought my software last dec and got a huge discount :Whistling:

By MythicDepths - 4 Years Ago

If they are in the Content Store then they will count. It is only actors or motions purchased from the ActorCore page below that do not count.

So if I make a purchase from ActorCore that are models also for sale in the Content Store, then it counts toward the promotion, or do I have to make the purchase from the Content Store's cart?

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

MythicLore (11/11/2021)

So if I make a purchase from ActorCore that are models also for sale in the Content Store, then it counts toward the promotion, or do I have to make the purchase from the Content Store's cart?

Hi... You need to purchase from the Content Store. Purchases made through ActorCore will not count.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/11/2021)

Okay Peter then The problem here is that the exchange pipeline "included " in CC8 is described as "limited ". IT FAILS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THAT LIMITATION IS .Does it mean you STILLl need the full blown plug in ? [ $499 for those that dont have it ] Note - I was going to put a link to the page that had the specs for IC8 but cant find it again which is in keeping with the whole Reallusion "thing" whether it be website , software, marketing plans etc etc. Described in one word - CONFUSING !!

The current features of 3DXchange Pipeline will be split between iClone 8 and CC4. That is why it is described as limited. So for example features like "Convert To Non-standard" or "Convert to Non-Human" are part of Character Creator 4 because they are character creation functions.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/11/2021)

armondtanz (11/11/2021)

Okay Peter then The problem here is that the exchange pipeline "included " in CC8 is described as "limited ". IT FAILS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THAT LIMITATION IS .Does it mean you STILLl need the full blown plug in ? [ $499 for those that dont have it ] Note - I was going to put a link to the page that had the specs for IC8 but cant find it again which is in keeping with the whole Reallusion "thing" whether it be website , software, marketing plans etc etc. Described in one word - CONFUSING !!

Problem solved, quite logical.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

yepkoo (11/11/2021)

Peter (RL) (11/11/2021)

[quote]armondtanz (11/11/2021)

Okay Peter then The problem here is that the exchange pipeline "included " in CC8 is described as "limited ". IT FAILS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THAT LIMITATION IS .Does it mean you STILLl need the full blown plug in ? [ $499 for those that dont have it ] Note - I was going to put a link to the page that had the specs for IC8 but cant find it again which is in keeping with the whole Reallusion "thing" whether it be website , software, marketing plans etc etc. Described in one word - CONFUSING !!

Wow, this post is getting so confusing im getting tagged with a quote that is not even my quote?

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/11/2021)

Wow, this post is getting so confusing im getting tagged with a quote that is not even my quote?

armondtanz :D:D:D
I think there was a mistake in shortening the quote message.
Peter responds to a lot of people and his job is really hard

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

Something I don't understand In the "promotion" pre-Sale Campaing.
A person who purchase IC8+CC4 first time pays $699 for the regular price and if they spend $799 they have those fore free. That's a difference of $100.
A person who owns IC7 and CC3 and all the plugins has a upgrade price of $599 but needs to spend also $799 to get free versions of the software? Thats $200 difference.

I can't see the benift of getting the pre-sale campaing even with the argument of getting also content.

Why the pre-sale campaing wont refltes the upgrade price too? For instance, instead of $399 it should be at least $349. Or $699 instead of $799 for those who already have those. That way the difference would be equal for regular and upgrade price.

By MythicDepths - 4 Years Ago

Presumably because it's a perk, so they're not applying any other discount.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

facr73 (11/12/2021)

Something I don't understand In the "promotion" pre-Sale Campaing.
A person who purchase IC8+CC4 first time pays $699 for the regular price and if the spend $799 the have those fore free. That's a difference of $100.
A person who owns IC7 and CC3 and all the plugins has a upgrade price of $599 but needs to spend also $799 to get free versions of the software? Thats $200 difference.

I can't see the benift of getting the pre-sale campaing even with the argument of getting also content.

Why the pre-sale campaing wont refltes the upgrade price too? For instance, insetad of $399 it should be at least $349. Or $699 instad of $799 for those who already have those. That way the difference would be equal for regular and upgrade price.

I've mentioned this before, but a lot of people spent money on the promotion.
I don't think they will change it anymore.

I think after this campaign, there will be another campaign to upgrade the products.
However, when we do not take advantage of the promotion, we will only pay the program fee.
Let's say there is a 50% discount, even if the upgrade fee is 300 dollars, there will still be only the program fee.

If you needed a combo pack, let's say $200, the total would still be $500.
Instead of paying $500 for the program + 1 combo package, it seems much more profitable to buy $500 worth of combo packages.

In other words, it seems more beneficial to take advantage of the promotion in every way.
My advice is to follow the special discounts in your membership panel, so that it can turn into much more profit.

Another tip; When you spend $700, you can apply for Elite membership and a 40% coupon is defined in your account.
You can buy the rest of the products with this coupon code.
I'm thinking of keeping it in case I need it for an important product in 2022.
Only the Content Store is counted in the calculation of the expenditure amount required for Elite membership application.

I reviewed the cc4 and iC8's features. I definitely understood that I had to do everything in my power to have these programs.

By oonabe - 4 Years Ago

Well, at the end $799 is still more money than $599, and for users like me who have no interest in the content store or any other software there is absolutely no profit on this promotion.

Also remember that VAT isn't included in the total amount of your qualifying purchases, so for some people this means you will have to spend %799 + 20% VAT to get the "free" updates.

I personally am only interested in the base software (CC4 and iClone 8) and when I compare what I already have in CC3 + iClone 7 and having purchased 3dxchange and the Curve Editor already I think the additional features I would get by upgrading to CC4 and iClone 8 aren't worth the $599 Reallusion is asking for. And additionally the whole thing rather makes me want to move to a different piece of software because if this is what happens when I want to upgrade now, what will be when CC5 and iClone 9 are next? Will I have to pay $1000 for a couple new features too?

I think the current RL selling politics are very unfair to loyal customers.

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

oonabe (11/12/2021)

Agree. For me is +23%. So I think I will only use the upgrade option. If there was another pre/sale options for current IClone users it would be nice.

facr

By trulymadly.ben - 4 Years Ago

I also think this upgrade price from iclone 7 to 8 is unfair that it does not take into account for people who purchased plugin for iclone 7. Take my case for example. Before the announcement of iclone 8, I already own iclone 7 and is about to purchase the 3d exchange pipeline ( price for member is $299.00 ). Right now I am glad I have not purchased 3D exchange pipeline yet cause whether I purchase 3D exchange pipeline for my iclone 7 or not, I have to pay the same upgrade price to iclone 8. I can't think of any reason I should spend this $299.00 . Of course I also own CC3 and headshot plugin but I won't be upgrading it to CC4 anytime soon.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Buying plug ins and upgrading from standard license to export license also counts towards the end goal... ;)

By trulymadly.ben - 4 Years Ago

Yes but the $299 I spend ( if I get the 3D exchange pipeline ) is far from the end goal of getting iclone 8, to get iclone 8 free I have to spend a lot more for a bunch I don't need nor want. It make no sense. So the only question that is left for me to decide is whether get the 3d exchange pipeline and forget iclone 8, or save up a bit more and just pay for the upgrade. The main reason I use iclone is for animation, which I will then export the motion to other software ( cause I have to pay again if I want decent rendering, and particle simulation etc etc. ), Anyway I am not talking down on the product, I am sure it is worth every penny for people who has use for all it's functions, or for professionals. But surely it make more sense to sell more at lower price, than to sell less at higher price to make the same profit cause it increase its popularity, hence lots of free exposure / publicity unless it is a product that solely aim at the high end industries. The lack of third party tutorials on the internet reflects on the current pricing policy.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Yes. You would think so.

I think in the gaming community EA Sports and Blizzard hav a horrendous reputation.
Takes years to shake it off.
If i had 1 dollor for every bad comment i heard, hell, id be able to buy every1 in this post a Full upgrade.

By planetstardragon - 4 Years Ago

what armondtanz said - figured i'd post just in case you did one day get a dollar for every bad comment lol!!
after blizzard north left blizzard - i never touched a game from blizzard again, and I was a huge fan in the beginning with warcraft, diablo 2 and starcraft ....i was so disappointed in the radical moves they were making after that I just couldn't support them anymore - even if their games were fun ...never ever tried warcraft mmo ..and never will...not even free. - i'd sooner pay for a new upcoming expansion from their competitor - anet / gw2 - that i don't even play any more just to show support.

This is what i've been trying to tell rl for years - the danger currently is that tech is advancing so much faster these days - it's just a matter of time before they get a valid competitor that gets what makes iclone a useful tool... - if you really haven't made an effort to build up a culture / your fan base / your community of artists ....there is no love lost in switching over to a new system from an old community ...and just like that ...things can change.

at this point, i don't think they understand what i've been trying to explain and I am kinda of tired of explaining it....what i do see is the overuse of the word free, but no sense in complaining at this point - like i said, i responded just in case you get that dollar and can pay our upgrades rofl :w00t:
https://www.pcgamer.com/unity-buys-peter-jackson-vfx-studio-weta-digital-for-dollar16-billion/

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

I will upgrade with promotion.
I already needed assets, it just made me have a budget problem by having to buy faster.
The only thing I complained about was that the promotion didn't extend over a longer period of time.
I know that campaigns are made 4-6 months before the new version programs are released, based on my experience in other companies.
(It doesn't matter if the program comes out in March. The important thing is the promotion period)
CC3 Standart sale by RL Website has been discontinued a long time ago. It indicates that this promotion has already been planned.
Therefore, it was very annoying that those who bought new products in the intervening period were not counted as promotions.
No problem for those who don't need any assets, they can upgrade by waiting.
But for those who need assets like me, missing the promotion seems like harm.
It was not pleasant that such a high limit promotion forced us in only 2 months.
Or the promotion limit should have been lower for older customers.
Also, the exchange rate here is very high
You complain about the tax, but since there is no regional pricing, I pay much more than you pay due to the exchange rate.

Promotions have now been announced for this new version and it is very difficult to change.
I hope promotions and campaigns for iClone 9 will be announced much earlier.
Complaints happen all the time.
At least I'm sure the complaint rate will drop considerably.

I also want to add this.
Your programs are not of low value.
Your programs are really high quality, useful and entertaining.
I know you deserve it down to the last penny.
The point I was talking about here is that you also think only of your ex-customers who are constantly high spending.
You might think about how high-spenders are pushing their budgets by re-spending.

Of course, you should not always look at the bad side.
On the other hand, judging by the promotion itself, RL did a good promotion and has more advantages.

-You will have both $800 assets and free programs.
-If you buy by following the campaigns, you can have assets worth 1300-1500 dollars with only 800 dollars spent.
With the programs, you can get a total of 2000 dollars of products.
-You get an elite coupon worth 40% and it has a long expiration date until the end of 2022.
-Although there are those who say that the improvements between the iC7 and iC8 are not worth the price, it is clear that the iC8 is much, much better.
I'm also sure it will get many more improvements and features over the course of the iC8 era. CC4 looks like it's perfect anyway. I hope major updates have been made or will be made in the plugins as well. We wouldn't even be writing here if we thought it wasn't worth it :)
-You can also run your CC3 + iC7 versions simultaneously on a different computer.
For example, I can get my brother to help me with my project. It can be used in CC3 and iC7 for years.

By planetstardragon - 4 Years Ago

if you understand how the deal works, you actually save money - because 3DX is over 499 by itself -
but there is such a lack of clarity - and an overselling and overuse of the word free - it feels misleading.

Whats good about the deal - if you get the min purchase requirement - basically you get 699 dollars worth of product free, you don't have to pay 499 for 3Dxchange separate program and get it's functionality for basically 299 in the software itself. that's simple, that's clear ....thats not common sense with bells and whistles.

i can run circles around this debate because I've fought both sides lol :w00t:
- I don't fight or complain about it anymore because in truth I got what I wanted already and then some - I personally really can't complain

If I really wanted to point out what irks me the most .....I'd suggest an art competition with RL vs their customers ... - Once upon a time RL was an inspiration to look up to with their artwork .... not just their content ...but their actual artwork to show that they weren't just developers trying to sell us stuff

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

In fact, the word free seems to be focused on new customers.
It was misleading for older customers.
When I first entered the site, I was happy to see the free upgrade article (until I saw 800 dollars) :)
In fact, the programs are really free, we did not understand that there are some conditions for this.

Although we use the word upgrade for the new version of the programs, there is actually no upgrade for these programs.
You purchase each version separately.
If there was an upgrade, your old version license would be revoked.

You cannot use Windows 10 and Windows 11 with the same license. Your license will be transferred to the new version when you upgrade.
In short, if RL had wanted to, they might not have given a discount or promotion for the new version.
Of course, this could have caused even more reactions.My guess is that we could call it a loyalty discount.
What people are used to is always upgrading the old version to the new version.
Everyone has more or less an opinion on RL policies.
We can guess that there may be discounts, campaigns or special discounts that you will upgrade at affordable prices.
Also, RL doesn't release a new version every year. If we are going to use a program with all its updates for at least 3 years, then the prices are reasonable.

However, RL could have increased the options for purchasing licenses.
For example, Separate license and license upgrade options.
Offering subscription licenses other than perpetual license and/or granting perpetual licenses after a certain subscription period (eg 12 months) such as 3D coat.

By PIO C - 4 Years Ago

I disagree at your comment regarding RL tools being of high quality. And you don't have a problem with spending money because you need assets, it's just the length of time, because you don't have the money. I do have the money, but refuse the spend money, after already spending alot of money for what is a mid range level softwate. RL is not bad, but to say they are high quality means you have little understanding of the competition.

I can tell you as a person who has used Motionbuilder, Maya and Daz pipeline, Moved over to RL CC IC Blender workflow for Indie project. RL isn't that great just cheap and not bad for the money. Alot of what Icone does is based on what other tools have done years ago. CC is based on Daz which was born from Poser. So no real innovation there either.

As Dragon said competition breeds Innovation, and soon RL will have competition. Already I'm testing a Daz pipeline that misses out RL. I spent thousand on RL software, reading the fees for the up coming release leads me to believe they don't care I supported them and believed they were a company I could rely on long term. What's next? Discontinued support for CC3 IC7 etc! The existing software has issues which most users found work arounds, and put up with, I was wonder if the new software is actually better and not just jewellery on a shiny 🐷.

By facr73 - 4 Years Ago

I used and invested in RL bacause it was the most affordable software I could get as a hobbyist.
For my purposes it suited well for what I do and for my abilities and capabilities. I like RL products because those were affordable (now with taxes is a different story) and because I can do something I couldn't do before because I only know the basics of 3D (and a lot learned in here)
I also invested in the pipeline versions and plugins over the years and some other stuff from Content Store and Marketplace.
But the investment was dilluted in those years.

I don't know the upgrade prices are fair nor not. For me it resumes to how much I can spend and I think the best option is the upgrade and if at that time I can do the upgrade.
There are things in CC4 and IClone 8 (mirror, for example) that I like and I'm thinking on upgrading but IClone 7 also is a great tool...

facr

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

First of all, I compared iC8 with iC7, not with other programs.
I also agree with you about the prices. I also don't appreciate the discontinuation of CC3 and iC7 support. In general, when a new version is released, it is correct to support a software for 3-4 more years. I don't even need to tell you how bad it is, especially for those who bought these programs 2 weeks ago.
As you said, I need assets and my budget is pretty tight. I just don't invest here.
All I need in the Reallusion market is the characters and character equipment (Hair, Beard, Clothes, Accessories etc.) and the moves I will create with iClone. I source assets from the UE marketplace and have a large archive of assets. I get the music from humble, fanatical and groupess.
I have a game project that is too big for one person to do alone.
For this, it is not something that I can do by myself by modeling 3d, preparing music, preparing clothes, preparing motion and programming the game.
This takes years. By outsourcing many assets, I just want to deal with programming, motion and stage designs.

As you said, character movements and animations can be prepared with Maya. However, I do not have a Mocap device and I am sure that preparing motions with iClone is more time-saving and easier than Maya. Also, it is too costly for me to pay twice the price for Maya every year.
The more iClone improves itself, the easier my job will be and when I watched the promotional video, I can say that it is quite good compared to ic7.
In the iC8 promotional video, if I'm not mistaken, we will be able to use mixamo animations in our characters by drag and drop. I can also say that it converts many different program files to other programs in harmony.

The compatibility of CC and iClone is excellent, so this makes my job even easier. I couldn't warm up to the Daz program, it doesn't seem useful or easy to me. Maybe because I don't use it much. For example, it took a lot of time to put a DAZ character into the UE. I was able to transfer the DAZ character to UE in 2 minutes with iClone
Daz's market is more expensive, an outfit that will work for me has an interactive license fee of 50 dollars. If I buy many licenses from the Daz market, exorbitant prices will appear.

Of course, that's just my opinion, it doesn't mean what I'm saying is true. The important thing is that it comes right to me and makes my work easier. :)

You can review the page below for all the currently published features.It is obvious to me that there is a huge difference between ic7 and ic8.
https://magazine.reallusion.com/2021/11/02/iclone-8-new-features-introduction/

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

facr73 (11/13/2021)

You may want to examine UE along with these programs. Mirror etc in UE. The features are quite advanced.CC+iC+UE is a nice trio in my opinion.

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

Already I'm testing a Daz pipeline that misses out RL

For me personally, Blender has made IC8 Moot

the FREE Diffeomorphic plugin for Daz studio

is a complete Daz to pipeline with Fully functional genesis models with their morphs,not transformed CC dopplegangers

and it can convert a Daz rig to rigify or MHX

which ever you prefer.

it supports props& environments as well

with perfect material conversion.

I already have path tracing in Blender without paying the "NVIDIA TAX"

along with volumetrics,retargeting ,Fluid sims,Rigid body dynamics,true 3D particles real reflections.

and Cycles X (in Blender 3x) will be a game changer again

without a $3000 GPU from NVIDIA.

Blender can perform every animation function available in iclone and many that are not possible in iclone.

https://youtu.be/ZK1EMBeOBVE

with a free plugin from Rokoko,I can directly retarget

any of that 2400 mixamo motion archive , to any G8 figure in Blender( See video)

I used to promote Iclone alot ,over in the Daz community. to

the point of nearly being banned.

However those days are over

Now I promote Blender with Daz's Blessing.

By animagic - 4 Years Ago

It is good that people find alternatives.

As for me, I'll stick with iClone and CC as I have found no convincing reason to change. It has served me quite well up till now and people even like my movies (done and rendered in iClone) as I've recently found out during a recent live showing.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/13/2021)

For me personally, Blender has made IC8 Moot

You can reach your goal with the methods you describe. Time is very important to me and this is a very, very difficult and long road for me. It's even harder if you don't have a motion device.
These are not exactly iClone alternatives, just different and a long way. In order to be competitive, fully compatible software that provides equal convenience must be released. I don't think this will happen in a short time.
Also, if you have ic7 and 3DX programs, why bother with them?

No problem for big companies, they have lots of motion devices and lots of professional teams. They have all kinds of equipment and financial power. With Maya, they have the freedom to do whatever they want.
It's pushing my budget a lot, but if I decide to continue with a software other than iClone, my job will be seriously difficult.
One of my favorite features of iClone is the camera systems. If only UE made camera systems this easy.

I can't even imagine the software that would come out if the RL team and the UE team were united :D

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

These are not exactly iClone alternatives, just different and a long way. In order to be competitive, fully compatible software that provides equal convenience must be released. I don't think this will happen in a short time.

Also, if you have ic7 and 3DX programs, why bother with them?Also, if you have ic7 and 3DX programs, why bother with them?

I do appreciate the simplicity and ease of use of iclone

but Like Daz studio and Poser before it, that comfort bubble is a double edged sword.

Putting costs completely aside

When your core application has been designed to

be simple" to spare you users any complexity,

I have observed over the years that upgrading it

(either in house or via third party access to the API)quickly lays bare the limitations

of your "simplistic" core.

In the case of iclone ,as they add features the hardware requirements

increase at an exponential rate and you still get performance drops.

For example; Alembic import.

When people were bombarding the FT with requests for Alembic import ,I warned them

that it would be unmanagable, unless Iclone was able to stream the massive ABC cache data

(LIKE ALL MODERN 3D PROGRAMS DO) instead of importing &saving it per scene file .

Now why dont we see Iclone animation renders with fluid or cloth simulations imported from Houdini or Blender or even from Daz??

Because Iclone imports the multi-gigabyte Alembic Caches into the saved scene file which brings the program to its knees.

yet a single Artist in the Daz community gave us a free Daz to Blender Alembic exporter

that exports massive Alembic caches that load into blender in seconds( with all material converted to blender shader nodes) with nearly zero performance hit because Blender streams the cache data in realtime from the external ABC cache.

Not bashing Iclone, just stating facts.

The same is true for Daz studio

and the vestigial Poser necroware.

Daz studio does not even have a functional IK solver for foot/floor contact.

Which is why I left the mac OS, got Iclone and 3Dxchange back in the version 5.5 days
and used it on Daz genesis figures to make the 93 minute feature length film in my forum signature.

Even when talented third parties cobble new abilities for iclone

(VIA the python API) the performance is generally abysmal compared to other programs.

for Example, Kellytoons has one of most top end,uber hardware setups in this community

along with Job (Animajik.)

He studied the Daz to blender Diffeomophic plugin, and created a similar iclone plugin
to import large Daz environment/sets directly from your daz content libraries, into iclone with materials .

kellytoons reports that it can take up to thirty minutes for iclone to import a typical

Daz stonemason environment.

yet importing this massive urban scene into Blender, (via Diffeo)

literally took seconds on my "office secretary computer" (Dell inspiron Core i13 cpu ,3.16 Ghz

Intel UHD graphics (no GPU)16 gigs of system ram.)

Understand this:

I will still use iclone 7, CC3 and the victor soupday Blender pipeline tool

for easy import of pre-animated CC3 actors into Blender scenes when appropriate.

However if given the choice between simplicity and clearly limited capabilities

or complexity and virtually unlimited capabilities, I choose the latter

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/14/2021)

Now why dont we see Iclone animation renders with fluid or cloth simulations imported from Houdini or Blender or even from Daz??
Because Iclone imports the multi-gigabyte Alembic Caches into the saved scene file which brings the program to its knees.

Of course, this is about the program you choose as the final.
I don't plan to use Blender for rendering at all.
There is nothing wrong with what you said. In this way, very good work can be done.
Blender really needs very little hardware compared to other software. However, this may change depending on the size of your projects.
(Blender will also need higher hardware in the future. Otherwise, he will have to stop improving himself. )

It's just that our perspective on the program is completely different. More precisely, our purposes of use are different.
You want iClone to be a complete workspace, I want it to create amazing character animations easily and quickly.

You are transferring your scenes to iClone and I can't comment on this as I have no idea about it. Because I've never tried.

The method you want:
Scene (DAZ) > Animation (iClone) > Render (iClone)

The method you are currently planning:
Scene (DAZ) > Animation (Blender) > Render (Blender)
This does not prevent you from using iClone.

My method:
Scene (UE) > Animation (iClone) > Render (UE)

If I were to use blender:
Scene (UE) > Animation (Blender) > Render (UE)
That way you can guess how hard it will be for me to animate.
Moreover, I have to give up a convenience, like the Unreal Live Link plugin, which works perfectly between iClone and UE.

You can also buy many assets from DAZ at affordable prices since you don't need any export or interactive licenses.
However, since I have a game project other than my advertising work, none of the non-exported assets will benefit me.
With Unreal's giant store and Quixel's huge free archive I can create unlimited scenes
If I buy 10 good assets from Daz it will cost even more than RL's programs :)

You can continue without using iClone or with old versions according to your working model.
But for UE users like me, unless they have Motion Devices and they are not using Maya, there is no better alternative than iClone.
If I turn to an alternative other than iClone, I will only complicate my work.

Note: I have never used it, but the animation of the akeytsu Indie 2021 program seems to be successful. Steam price is $239. But it has a limited commercial sale license that definitely keeps me away.
Every road will bring me to RL's door again :)

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

It's just that our perspective on the program is completely different. More precisely, our purposes of use are different.

You want iClone to be a complete workspace, I want it to create amazing character animations easily and quickly.

You misunderstand me

I Need a full 3DCC as my delivery space because I am also a content creator.

I Know that Iclone 8 will not even come close to that nhence my earlier statement

that IC8 is Moot to me.

Like yourself I only need Iclone for quick& easy base layer animation

to export to my 3DCC.

as you do with UE4/5

IC7 with 3DX and CC3 pipeline serve that purpose.

however I am migrating back to Daz Genesis for the better quality figures

in Blender (via Diffeo) as it retains mesh resolution and joint correction morphs

and being able to add to a proper control rig is a plus as wel.

We even have several Lipsync options

https://youtu.be/yvGh5SCPtRE

I will likely have a Mixed eco system pipeline with imported CC3 characters for backgrounders
and Daz genesis 8 for primary actors/close-ups etc.

By oonabe - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/14/2021)

I am migrating back to Daz Genesis for the better quality figures

in Blender (via Diffeo) as it retains mesh resolution and joint correction morphs

and being able to add to a proper control rig is a plus as wel.

We even have several Lipsync options

https://youtu.be/yvGh5SCPtRE

I will likely have a Mixed eco system pipeline with imported CC3 characters for backgrounders
and Daz genesis 8 for primary actors/close-ups etc.

Nice, I didn't consider Daz so far, but it looks like an interesting alternative if the import to Blender works well and the models are good too. I'm also looking for alternatives right now and starting to learn rigging and animation in Blender so I'm not limited either. Knowing that Daz characters can get a proper rig and keep resolution and morphs is very good news to me. Thanks for sharing this info and the previos one on Diffeo, I'll definitely take a look into it

By animagic - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/14/2021)

for Example, Kellytoons has one of most top end,uber hardware setups in this community

along with Job (Animajik.)

Just for the record, I (Job) call myself animagic. There is indeed also an Animajik but that's someone else.

Let me also say that I enjoy using a system with an RTX 3900.

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

animagic (11/15/2021)

AutoDidact (11/14/2021)

for Example, Kellytoons has one of most top end,uber hardware setups in this community

along with Job (Animajik.)

Just for the record, I (Job) call myself animagic. There is indeed also an Animajik but that's someone else.

Let me also say that I enjoy using a system with an RTX 3900.

Apologies Job, I felt something was off about that spelling🥺

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

You are most welcome.

the great thing about Diffeo is the you do not actually export

any Daz content to an intermediate format(FBX etc).

You Load it directly into Blender from your Daz content libraries

and the Daz materials are automaticly converted to Blender texture nodes.

If you are interested in learning to hand keyframe Characters with an industry standard control rig Diffeo will convert the Daz figures rigging for you

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/97ffffae-4359-4508-ad30-9425.jpg

I am not leaving the reallusion ecosystem entirely

as I still have My IC7,3DX&CC3 Pipeline.

And as I stated, I will still make use of Iclone to Blender pipeline tool

for quick and easy import of pre-animated characters Iclone via CC3 pipeline

when appropriate.

However it is nice to have these other viable options

for animated filmaking particularly from an economic perspective.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

There's no end to it :)
This way of rigging is also available in UE and it's not something I want to use much.
Still, the method you mentioned is a long process for me and I don't have any libraries in DAZ anyway.
Since my expenses are high enough, I do not want to add an extra DAZ library.
Even though my budget is quite limited, I want to take advantage of this promotion somehow.
Because when I watched all the CC4 and iC8 videos, my mind changed and I definitely want to have these programs.
Frankly, I don't want to follow up for weeks to see if there is a campaign for the programs to go on sale with a more suitable promotion.
Maybe the next campaign will be 30% off. If I wait for the next campaign this time, I will wonder if it will be 50% and it will never end.
For example, I will buy with 30% discount, if they give 40% discount after 6 months, I will feel sorry for the extra money I spent :)
I know most people will pay upgrade fees of less than $600 with subsequent promotions.
As I said, even if there is a 50% discount (eg $300), it is still more profitable for me to buy assets instead. Especially when I buy these assets with a campaign and coupons, it will be much more profitable for me.
Of course, if they say that the upgrade fees are 50% off + 500 dollars of assets as a gift, I may regret taking advantage of this promotion (I'll lose $200 this way) :D
I will also have some earnings related to the program. For example I didn't have the Curve Editor and now I will have a better one. I didn't have the Iray plugin, but Omniverse came to my rescue.

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

There's no end to it

I don't have any libraries in DAZ anyway.

I do not want to add an extra DAZ library..., I do not want to add an extra DAZ library.

No person here one has demanded that you should.

I was responding directly to oonabe (whom I quoted)...not you:Wow:

By all means

use the pipeline you already have.:)

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/15/2021)

There's no end to it

I don't have any libraries in DAZ anyway.

I do not want to add an extra DAZ library..., I do not want to add an extra DAZ library.

No person here one has demanded that you should.

I was responding directly to oonabe (whom I quoted)...not you:Wow:

By all means

use the pipeline you already have.:)

No problem, I just wanted to present my general ideas.
I didn't use the phrase "There's no end to it" for you, I used it for myself. I am sure many people will benefit from the useful information you share.
Thanks to you, I got some ideas that I can use and your sharing was useful.
Having an ic8 doesn't prevent us from using these methods when needed.
I also anticipate that you will buy these programs already in the future :)

By oonabe - 4 Years Ago

AutoDidact (11/15/2021)

You are most welcome.

the great thing about Diffeo is the you do not actually export

any Daz content to an intermediate format(FBX etc).

You Load it directly into Blender from your Daz content libraries

and the Daz materials are automaticly converted to Blender texture nodes.

If you are interested in learning to hand keyframe Characters with an industry standard control rig Diffeo will convert the Daz figures rigging for you

I am not leaving the reallusion ecosystem entirely

as I still have My IC7,3DX&CC3 Pipeline.

And as I stated, I will still make use of Iclone to Blender pipeline tool

for quick and easy import of pre-animated characters Iclone via CC3 pipeline

when appropriate.

However it is nice to have these other viable options

for animated filmaking particularly from an economic perspective.

Cool does it mean I can make modifications to a Daz model after having "imported" into Blender and maybe have made an animation already with it and update the model directly in Daz?

Also in my case, I think I will keep using iClone 7 and CC 3 at least for a while, but for me they were initally meant as an initial step in my learning process, something to get models done quickly and understand how a finished, rigged and texturized character works. During that time I learned a lot on how convenient is to have a software like iClone7 or CC3 and I was really considering staying in the Reallusion Echo System for base character creation and animation, but for me personally the price/advantages relation for the update aren't worth the money so probably I'll just start doing what I wanted to do from the start, which is creating my own characters from scratch in Blender/Zbrush, learn how to rig and animate them in blender or other software and texturize them with substance or similar so I have more control over my characters.

And I'll definitely try Daz because I think it could still be of help for my projects and not so hard on my wallet

By AutoDidact - 4 Years Ago

I didn't use the phrase "There's no end to it" for you, I used it for myself. I am sure many people will benefit from the useful information you share.

Thanks to you, I got some ideas that I can use and your sharing was useful.Thanks to you, I got some ideas that I can use and your sharing was useful.

Fair enough, and yes there really is "no end" to the temptations

of the new and shiny.:w00t:

Having an ic8 doesn't prevent us from using these methods when needed.

of course it is not a zero sum game technically i am already using

a "hybrid" pipeline as some of the actors in this clip are Old Daz models

imported to blender via standard FBX

But the "HALO Spartans" are CC3 base males with armor& weapons that I modeled in Blender and weighted/conformed in CC3 pipeline and imported via the Blender pipeline tool

I also anticipate that you will buy these programs already in the future.

Perhaps the distant future, however I have no immediate need for the new render options in IC8. as they still dont match Blenders

and the animation features I can do in Blender, except that automatic walk around stuff that I dont care about anyway.

Cool does it mean I can make modifications to a Daz model after having "imported" into Blender and maybe have made an animation already with it and update the model directly in Daz?

Yes you can do nondestructive mesh editing with the sculpting tools.

And of course you can apply animation, delete it, apply different animation

(body and face), as I demonstrate in my video on the Blender NLA clip system.

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

yepkoo (11/13/2021)

I also don't appreciate the discontinuation of CC3 and iC7 support. In general, when a new version is released, it is correct to support a software for 3-4 more years. I don't even need to tell you how bad it is, especially for those who bought these programs 2 weeks ago.

I'm not sure where you got this from but it is incorrect.

Our policy is to support the last three versions of a product line. So when iClone 8 releases we will support iClone 8, iClone 7 and iClone 6. Support for version 5 will be discontinued.

By yepkoo - 4 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/15/2021)

yepkoo (11/13/2021)

I realized that I was wrong because I was commenting based on the rumors from the research.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

I think the best option now is plan ahead and look out for any offers around BLACK FRIDAY or XMAS period.

I guess getting 100s of dollars worth of assets or plugins is better than nothin.....

Would of liked to of seen a loyalty option for last 6 or 12 months been added to final total.
ah well we can but dream :ermm:

By SeanMac - 4 Years Ago

@alfied

“I don't know who of you agree, but I feel betrayed.”

With all due respect, alfied, when you think you have a personal relationship with a corporation the natural consequence is that you are goingto feel betrayed.
Remember the old saying: Don't get sore; get even.
How many corporations have gone broke through an out of control marketing department?

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

armondtanz (11/8/2021)

Please be assured that all the feedback submitted is being reviewed and discussed. Customer feedback is very important to us.

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Yes please pass this onto Mr Chen personally ;)

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Hi,

Just curious to know what the elite program 2022 is?
Its 2am and im struggling to read all the info.

Is this
2022 Elite content Store 40% off
either or with the
2021 End of year treats IC8+CC4 Upgrade

If i click on the 2022 elite offer can i still qualify for year end treats?

Thanks in advanced

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago

Hi Armondtanz

Your purchases go towards both the Elite Program and the 2021 Year End Treats offer. You are not limited to one or the other.

By zuntar - 4 Years Ago

Thanks. I came on here because I thought that I clearly had to be misunderstanding the "upgrade" price for current users. WOW it really is over 3X the cost of the original programs. I know that they are saying that many bridges, etc., that I have already purchased are now included. However, they also say that there will be "free upgrades" for the add-ons and bridges I have purchased. I am just not sure how they are gonna be "free upgrades" if they are now included in the new program I have to repurchase....

If they are going to triple the price of these programs, please tell me that at least they FINALLY will have 3D mouse support. It is 2021 after all.....

By armondtanz - 4 Years Ago

Ha ..here is me thinking "hmmmm what is this 3d mouse"

By zuntar - 4 Years Ago

"Ha ..here is me thinking "hmmmm what is this 3d mouse"

LOL...I here they are quite the rage with those crazy, speed obsessed, 3D modeling youths nowadays...👴

By deerob - 4 Years Ago

Just pre upgraded.
I already own everything Reallusion...
So I bought content.
With disc. Coupons.
Hairs.
Characters..
Terrains.
Sets.
Clothes...
...ughh..

By Peter (RL) - 3 Years Ago

Moderator Notice:

Unfortunately a large number of posts have been removed from this thread. The reasons for the removal are:

1. A number of posts breached forum rules related to member conduct. Please see the forum rules HERE.
2. A large number of videos were embedded that were not viewable.
3. The posts removed were all unrelated to the original topic. Forum members should take care not to hijack another users thread with unrelated posts.

By AutoDidact - 3 Years Ago

Thank you Peter 👍

By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago

Ha. I wondered what happened to Jack Dorsey when he left twitter. Is he moderating this forum now?

Gotta be careful. Have u heard of the streisand effect.?

By urbanlamb - 3 Years Ago

armondtanz (1/6/2022)

Ha. I wondered what happened to Jack Dorsey when he left twitter. Is he moderating this forum now?

Gotta be careful. Have u heard of the streisand effect.?

I'm brave and surfing :O) to ensure its not too much of a headscratcher it was about cpu's and graphics cards and iclone 7 and 8 Since the thread was about iclone 8 and upgrading to it... it kinda fit hence the discussion. Anyhoo the conclusion is always read specs before forking over money on a new pc .. the end.

By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago

I thought it was over a guy who stated he had a 15k computer (almost super computer)

He was talking about issues in headshot. I own headshot & hav done a lot of headshots. Didnt have no way near the problems he had.

By urbanlamb - 3 Years Ago

armondtanz (1/6/2022)

I have hardcore filters when i read.. it may have been, but I didn't notice :/ I was reading the cpu and graphics cards and about crashes. I told a guy to turn off all those cores and use one card cause iclone really is only built for 8 cores (i think i forget how many are in an i7 right now). The rest.. i didnt read/click/register cause i'm wierd like that.

By Peter (RL) - 3 Years Ago

armondtanz (1/6/2022)

He was talking about issues in headshot. I own headshot & hav done a lot of headshots. Didnt have no way near the problems he had.

This thread is about the pre-sale offer for iClone 8 and CC4. Totally the wrong place to be discussing Headshot issues. We have a dedicated Headshot forum for that.

Please let's keep this thread on topic.

By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago

urbanlamb (1/6/2022)

armondtanz (1/6/2022)

Did sound a bit overkill.
I spent a bit of money using a modeller on cgtrader, it was killing me. Far too much money and time spent on models. CC3 + Headshot is a godsend. You can save a hell of a lot of money when your getting quotes of $1000 for 12 models and you end up making them for a fraction of the cost. Im set for CC4. Loving the animal aspects of the design. Heres to 2022, I might get my first wholesome animation finished. Too many stop n starts. Let gooooooo!!!!

By hawktaka11 - 3 Years Ago

Very upset that even though I've been a loyal customer since Iclone5 and have spent thousands and thousands, I won't be able to afford the "FREE" upgrade to IC8・CC4！！
Yet, any newbie that buys a basic Iclone7 package right now gets a TOTALLY FREE upgrade to IC8/CC4!!
Nice way to treat the longest, most loyal customers. . .sadly, looks like I'll be stuck with IC7 as upgrades are way too much for me. . .((+_+))

By animagic - 3 Years Ago

It is not uncommon for a company to offer the next version for free when the current version is bought close to the release date.

I have been a "loyal" customer for longer than you (since iClone 1.52) and I have no idea how much money I have spent over the years. Still, I also know that each major upgrade of the software needs to be paid. For that, I can look forward to several years of further development of the software. Many companies bring out new versions of their software every year that are hardly distinguishable from the previous version.

By stephane.grade - 3 Years Ago

The problem is the ever shifting ground these deals are made on. The reallusion products in itself are good
but the marketing to commercialise them are just from another dimension and make no logical sense. I understand
that they need to make a living and that updates cost money, but that doesn't explain the hoops they make you jump
through, either to make you pay for the same thing twice or make you buy things you don't need to get access to things
you do need.

I've paid for 3dxchange and live motion plugins and now they bump the price on the update, making me pay
for the same functionality twice. And as for the argument that reallusion don't do minor updates, that completely
skips past the fact that important new functionality is mostly sold as addons that you need to buy seperately.

Good thing I never bought the curve editor plugin which is now included in IC8 as well and which by the way is still
in the store today!

Not cool!

By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago

I totally agree with you that there should be a better discount for loyal customers.
However, once the products are on the market, Peter has already stated that there will be a discount. Although we don't know the discount rate yet, it would be useful to wait. The current offer is for new customers. When a campaign is started for old customers, I think it would be better to talk about the price at that time.

I have never purchased the Curve editor and Motion Live plugin. This was advantageous for me, but it was also a disadvantage since I couldn't use the Curve Editor.
Also, when I run old versions of programs on another computer, Curve Editor will not be on that computer.

As a result, if merging programs was done with ic7, then it would still have a price of 600-700 dollars and you would have purchased it as a single program.
In other words, if the price is close to that again when iC9 comes out, you can't say that you have already bought these add-ons, because they are no longer add-ons but a part of the program.
You can ask Reallusion why the prices are so high, but saying we've already paid for the add-ons isn't a permanent defense for future versions and of course we all expect better discounts as old customers.

Of course, there are those who have spent thousands of dollars.
But these expenses are not just for basic programs.
Everything else you buy is still yours.
It was also said that an animation package worth $99 will be gifted to former members (3Dx owners) as an extra.

I don't know if I'm allowed to post this here, but here's the total amount I paid for basic programs I bought using discounts:
iC7 + CC3 Pipeline + 3DXChange 7 Pipeline = $450

All the rest of my expenses are assets and extra add-ons that I bought because I wanted it myself.
Don't get me wrong writing this, as I said I think loyal customers deserve a good discount.

The reason is they should be able to see their old customers who have supported them for years. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with the plugin or it should not mean that Reallusion does not deserve this money.
if we calculate the free updates we have received for iC7 for years, it would be unfair to expect a nearly free discount for a new version released after a long period of 4-5 years.
We are here because we are all satisfied with Reallusion programs in some way.

By AutoDidact - 3 Years Ago

Reallusion is one of the few remaining 3D character animation companies

that is still using a retail, perpetual license business model.

They can only grow thier user base by gaining new customers

so it is only fair that they make Iclone 8 as attractive as possible

to new users.

trying to molify existing users with deep discounts does not actually grow the size of the user base.

A static user base that is not growing can lead to eventual

market death because the competitive market is not remaining static.

UE4/5 and the Metahumans is a viable alternative

for Character based realtime animated filmaking

by many in the Epic eco system, and has a very low cost of entry

And Unity recently purchased the VFX arm of Weta Digital and the realtime

ZIVA Dynamics system for realtime facial animation of Characters in unity

I think Daz reached its limit of selling genesis content to same static user base of still portrait & pinup artists hence their migration

over to an NFT/Crypto hub.

The competition is very tough and Reallusion needs the revenue from new users because IMHO, the only other way is with a monthly subscription based system.

By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago

Yup i bought both xchange and curves. 13months to the day.
Gutted.
But had a cry and and a whinge, dusted myself off and now onto 2022. Hopefully ic8 & CC4 wont let us down and it will be a smash :D

By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago

animagic (1/28/2022)

Imagine being a hardened FIFA fan. That is literally the same game for 15 yrs just with player updates and kit changes with slightly better graphics each year.
Saying that they just lost the contract so who knows whats going to happen to that next?

By GIM - 3 Years Ago

After several back and forths with 'support' I finally got this from them. And even though I've told them several times that I'm not looking for a free future upgrades only frikkin accurate information, they still kept sending me the first and second paragraph without the third one. This is just like their marketing emails we've discussed before.
==========================================
Thank you for contacting Reallusion.
Our programs are perpetual license, that means the license with no expiration date. The license right from our tools are the "version dependent", you can get FREE UPDATE of the same version (e.g. CCv3.1 to CCv3.2), it does not include the future upgrade (e.g. CCv3 to CCv4), you can pay upgrade to CC4.

However, we have Year End campaign now, if you purchase on Content store or Software store during Nov. & Dec. and the accumlated amount is over $399, you will get a Free CC4, if $over 699, you will get Free iC8, if over $799, then you will get both for free. Please refer to the link below for more info:
https://www.reallusion.com/event/21-promotion/

Or you may choose to pay upgrade with member price when they are released next year. You can see campaign FAQ to find member upgrade price:
https://www.reallusion.com/event/21-promotion/default.html?open=f7

By animagic - 3 Years Ago

The third paragraph you mention has been in a forum post as well. In fact the small difference between new purchase price and member upgrade price started a whole discussion.