|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
Have you noticed, there is no forum section dedicated to filmmaking. Why not having a specific section where all aspects of filmmaking (iClone oriented of course) would be discussed ?
Script writing, pre-production, production, storyboards, animatics, casting and voice acting, camera blocking, shooting, lighting, editing, vfx, performances, sound design, mixing, music, etc.. etc..
Contrary to @Kelleytoons, I do not oppose *filmmaking* to "animation". Animation is just a technical way of creating motions but you still make a film and do filmmaking. Yet live filmmaking techniques could be applied to "animated" movies, puppetering, mocap, etc..
Anyway, what do you think ? Would it be a good idea to have a Forum Filmmaking section where all this aspects could be discussed, idea exchanged, help asked, etc.. ?
|
|
By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago
|
Yep Why not? It could be cool. I think it would be a good place also to show what's going on in the realtime Broadcast world. I see some Series,
movie made with game engine , it's very instructive.
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
+1
I would welcome such an area in the forum.
|
|
By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
|
Opposing filmmaking to animation? Where did you get the idea that I thought that?
What I thought was that too many folks just create "tests" -- I thought I was pretty clear in that explanation. There is a clear difference between just creating a test animation and telling a story, and in my experience on this forum and many others (including some I admin) that's all they ever do. There's nothing wrong with that in principle, but it's a bit like going out and practicing your tennis serve but never playing the game.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Kelleytoons (2/18/2018)
Opposing filmmaking to animation? Where did you get the idea that I thought that?
What I thought was that too many folks just create "tests" -- I thought I was pretty clear in that explanation. There is a clear difference between just creating a test animation and telling a story, and in my experience on this forum and many others (including some I admin) that's all they ever do. There's nothing wrong with that in principle, but it's a bit like going out and practicing your tennis serve but never playing the game.
Ah, sorry if I misinterpreted your thoughts on this, I was referring to your thread: Filmmaking versus Animation where you wrote:
Kelleytoons (1/14/2018)
../..I thought I'd start a thread here about something I think is more important than all the discussions ever hosted here -- the differences between making a film/video/movie versus making animation../..
Perhaps "opposing" is not the right word indeed.
In my case I've always felt that iClone is more a filmmaking tool than an animation tool even if that seems a bit odd because basically you animate things (aside mocaped data).
But the way I see creating performances inside iClone is that the more you tend to do things in realtime the closest you are from filmmaking instead of animation. Ultimately you are creating a film. But in the professional industry, the two are very separated things and this is something I'm fighting against, because most 3D animated movies are made under the heritage of the 2D animation industry, which, imho, is a mistake. For instance, those who create camera blocking and framing are Layout artists, who often never shot a camera, don't know what is framing composition, etc.. In the filmmaking industry this is a specific job: Camera operator. Those who make lighting in 3D are TD Lighters, there is no Director of Photography. TD lighters do not have the same background as DPs. Etc..
|
|
By kungphu - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Yup, that’s what I got from KT. Something true that many just post snippets of animation without making a film and telling a story. Like going to a batting cage, but never playing a game of baseball or whatever other analogy. Would be a good section if the forum. The other thread got many points of views. Some obvious and some rally not obvious but really great tips.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
Just to clarify my thoughts about Filmmaking vs Animation because I think my previous message was not very clear:
I make the distinction between "cartoonish" 3d movies such as Pixar movies, and "realistic" 3d movies (realistic motions, not always rendering) such as Final Fantasy, Beowolf, Tintin, etc..
The first ones will use the heritage of 2d animated films and as such are truely "animated" movies. The second ones should use the heritage of live filmmaking.
I'm exclusively interested in the second category so I wont speak for the first one.
|
|
By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
|
Guy,
I think it's an interesting thought that animated stories are approached differently than films, although IMX (admittedly limited to a very small portion of the industry -- we were not "the big boys" in any sense of the word) the opposite was true -- I thought the animation folks followed the live action principles TOO closely. Folks who came to the animation platform tried to apply traditional lighting and photography techniques when in reality (or, all puns intended, when NOT in reality :>) you don't need to do that. To some degree this example has been obsoleted by drones, but I'd find that folks wouldn't consider camera shots that couldn't be captured by a real camera, and thus not employing the full power of animation (a flying soaring camera, for example, wouldn't even be considered).
I would always tell the team -- if it looks good, it IS good. Which is a hard thing to learn, particularly if you are trying to use tools that emulate Real Life (I can't tell you how hard it was to wean these guys away from using physics tools that, while accurate, weren't nearly as good as doing things by hand). They all came from a traditional film background and needed to break away and "think outside the box" (or, another pun, inside the box -- if the box is a computer :>).
But I think the more discussion about this stuff the better -- if it can encourage people to tell stories with iClone it can't be a bad thing. And there are all kinds of aspects to making an animated film that could be explored and would be relevant to this product line. This forum is more properly about the technical aspects of the software, but it certainly would help RL's sales to encourage as much thought into the actual use of their product as an end game. Perhaps Peter will consider it -- not just a filmmaking section, but even a game making one (I know there are folks using these products for that as well. Maybe a "Creative Section" where folks using the products can talk about all such considerations.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
@Kelleytoons
My point is not to "restrict" actions to what would be possible in reality, far from it.
I was rather targeting production methods.
Lets take an example, camera work:
- With "traditional" 3d animated films, Layout artists will set the camera according to the storyboard and pose the action in front of it, eventually with a moving camera, but in the spirit of the heritage of 2d animated movies, the idea is to create framed poses.
- With filmmaking, even if you have a precise idea of your shot framing, the action takes place in realtime and the camera operator will frame it in realtime following the action and storyboard.
That's two different approaches even if the second example is done in practice by first animating the characters and then animating a camera after that (the opposite is done in the 3d animated movie industry).
Regarding the forum yes, even a Game Making forum why not. Learning the tool does not mean learning the domain. An expert at iClone may not have a single clue at how to make a movie and vice versa. A Filmmaking forum might act as a link between the tool and the domain of application and that would certainly help seeing more movies made with iClone.
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
|
grabiller (2/18/2018)
Lets take an example, camera work:
- With "traditional" 3d animated films, Layout artists will set the camera according to the storyboard and pose the action in front of it, eventually with a moving camera, but in the spirit of the heritage of 2d animated movies, the idea is to create framed poses.
- With filmmaking, even if you have a precise idea of your shot framing, the action takes place in realtime and the camera operator will frame it in realtime following the action and storyboard.
That's two different approaches even if the second example is done in practice by first animating the characters and then animating a camera after that (the opposite is done in the 3d animated movie industry).
I understood the idea of a "Filmmaking" area to focus on the art and science of making a film, regardless if it was approached as a "live actor with live camera operators" or if was approached like a 2D "Snow White" animation or a 3D "Toy Story" animation. They all rely on story, pacing and editing, color, lighting, wardrobe, voices, sound effects, music, and on and on.
It would really be nice to have a place to talk about all those elements that go beyond the mechanics of operating iClone, 3DXchange, and Character Creator.
|
|
By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago
|
Sounds like a good idea!
Actually, I've only just purchased iClone for the very purpose of doing some music clips.
I wanted a way of laying out sets, doing realistic lighting, and creating angles with shallow depth of field - a real film look.
Was only thinking over the past few days, how much the forums are geared more towards avatars and animation, and then you post this! :)
It would be good to hear member's suggestions on various ways to get a desired end result (compositing etc).
I know I could learn heaps and there's bound to be other newbies that could learn a lot too.
|
|
By rollasoc - 8 Years Ago
|
Sounds like a good idea to me.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
@Peter (RL)
What do you think Peter ? Could it be possible to have a "Filmmaking* section (and perhaps a "Gamemaking" section as well) in the Forum, perhaps in the Lobby or in a dedicated "Art" or something forum or section ?
And why not a "Comic Book" forum too I know some are using iClone for that. You get the idea, a Forum or Forum Section for iClone domains of applications.
|
|
By CtrlZ - 8 Years Ago
|
|
grabiller (2/18/2018)
@Peter (RL)
What do you think Peter ? Could it be possible to have a "Filmmaking* section (and perhaps a "Gamemaking" section as well) in the Forum, perhaps in the Lobby or in a dedicated "Art" or something forum or section ?
And why not a "Comic Book" forum too I know some are using iClone for that. You get the idea, a Forum or Forum Section for iClone domains of applications.
+1 for Me!
|
|
By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
|
After reviewing the way the forums are laid out (and as Admin on several forums on the web that rank among the most popular I have a *bit* of experience in this area) I think it would serve RL best to have the use of their products front and center in such a section.
This is an important forum -- it's what EVERYONE does with the products RL sells (other than those who just open them up, fiddle with them, and never use them again). Such a forum helps all of us, of course, but it also helps RL actually SELL its products. Showing folks actively engaged in the discussion of techniques and methods used to create finished works will only help them.
To that end, such a "Creative" sub-forum ought to be near the top. Reallusion IS the top, so it shouldn't be over that, but it's not a "Lobby" subject, either. It's the heart of why anyone wants to buy stuff from RL, so I think it ought to be positioned right underneath "Reallusion".
Under that Category you could have "Filmmaking", "Game Making", "Comics", "Misc" -- whatever other categories folks use these RL products for. The more that are listed the more people will think of RL when it comes to doing those things (again, win/win).
As an admin I understand fully the desire not to clutter up forums with needless categories, where folks get lost or have trouble understanding where to post what. But I think this would be such a great opportunity for both RL and the rest of us who frequent here that Peter ought to give this serious consideration (if he needs any incentive he should note that my recent thread on this exact thing was one of the longest and most popular in a very long time).
If I were a new user, coming here for the first time, just seeing that RL is actively used by folks to accomplish things would be a tremendous confidence booster. Heck, even the "Showcase" could be moved into that section (the more I think about it, the better I like that idea).
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Kelleytoons (2/19/2018)
../.. This is an important forum -- it's what EVERYONE does with the products RL sells (other than those who just open them up, fiddle with them, and never use them again). Such a forum helps all of us, of course, but it also helps RL actually SELL its products. Showing folks actively engaged in the discussion of techniques and methods used to create finished works will only help them../..
../..It's the heart of why anyone wants to buy stuff from RL../..
../..If I were a new user, coming here for the first time, just seeing that RL is actively used by folks to accomplish things would be a tremendous confidence booster. Heck, even the "Showcase" could be moved into that section (the more I think about it, the better I like that idea).
Excellent points indeed.
|
|
By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago
|
That's what I thought when I read Kellytoon's summation - especially:
"If I were a new user, coming here for the first time, just seeing that RL is actively used by folks to accomplish things would be a tremendous confidence booster."
I have to agree.
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Kelleytoons (2/19/2018)
Under that Category you could have "Filmmaking", "Game Making", "Comics", "Misc" -- whatever other categories folks use these RL products for. The more that are listed the more people will think of RL when it comes to doing those things (again, win/win).
Once again, I must express my enthusiastic support for the idea of this new forum section. +1
I like the idea of it being a "top-level" area, equivalent to iClone, CrazyTalk Animator, Character Creator,, etc.
As for the sub-forms to that, I also agree we need to balance between having too many sub-forms and overloading one with too many user topics.
Filmmaking and Game Making sound like a great start.
Would it make sense to combine "Stills and Comics?" They both share the concept of composition and framing that is probably different (at least slightly different, I assume) from the way it might be done for movies, but maybe not so different that we need separate areas for Stills and Comics. I suspect either one on its own would get minimal traffic.
I'm sure we'll often need to direct people to the "technical" forums with their Iray, Indigo, and iClone "how to" questions," (and vise versa) but I think this would be phenomenal addition to the forum.
Oh, and moving the "Showcase" section here sounds like an excellent idea. Question: One "Showcase" area for everyone, or one for iClone and one for Game Making, etc.? I think one for all of Filmmaking would be good. It's always nice to see what people in other walks of life are doing, and you never know what will inspire you.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
|
justaviking (2/19/2018)
[quote]Kelleytoons (2/19/2018)
../.. Oh, and moving the "Showcase" section here sounds like an excellent idea. Question: One "Showcase" area for everyone, or one for iClone and one for Game Making, etc.? I think one for all of Filmmaking would be good. It's always nice to see what people in other walks of life are doing, and you never know what will inspire you.../..
+1
I believe one "Showcase" for all would be perfect.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
As it seems @Peter (RL) does not want to be involved in this decision, I've visited the Feedback Tracker but there is no "Forum" product or category so I'm not sure how to "officially" submit this request.
Perhaps by opening a iClone/Suggestion ticket ?
What do you think ?
|
|
By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
|
Guy,
My hunch is that Peter can't (won't?) do anything unilaterally -- he would have to have permission from his bosses, and it's kind of a big ask unless he buys fully into it. Perhaps he will at least weigh in here and tell us what WE could do to help the process along (whether it's a request from the regular list/bug area, or just some kind of join signed petition or Facebook plea). I'm sure he won't mind doing the actual work if he gets approval but as an employee he's unlikely to take the steps to promote it himself.
If I'm wrong, maybe he can at least correct our impression of that. I suspect we could get at least a few hundred folks here to vote in favor of this (and I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone opposing it). Maybe that would give him the ammunition to approach his superiors (or at least convince him it's a good idea).
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
|
grabiller (2/20/2018)
... I've visited the Feedback Tracker but there is no "Forum" product or category so I'm not sure how to "officially" submit this request.
Perhaps by opening a iClone/Suggestion ticket ?
In response to comments I made (many months ago) regarding the lack of "Forum" and "Feedback Tracker" sections there, a moderator responded to me and told me to go ahead and post those issues in the iClone section, and they'll see them.
Seems like an "Other" product area in Feedback Tracker would be useful once in a while.
|
|
By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 8 Years Ago
|
|
justaviking (2/20/2018)
../..In response to comments I made (many months ago) regarding the lack of "Forum" and "Feedback Tracker" sections there, a moderator responded to me and told me to go ahead and post those issues in the iClone section, and they'll see them.../..
Thanks for the tip Dennis, I'll probably do that.
|
|
By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago
|
Having an extra catagory specifically for film making, (or "catagories", if more than just film making), might seem to add extra clutter to the forum.
But I honestly think that it'd be well worth it because then "searches" would be very "specific".
iClone has the ability to be "all things" to "all creators", so to help sort through this diversity, the extra catagories streamline a user's search for help.
I think this would save on the user's search time in a big way. Consolidating user posts under a single catagory would also "concentrate" additional thoughts and ideas for "that" catagory of users. = more productive ... (Just my 2c worth)
|
|
By Peter Blood - 8 Years Ago
|
Those are fine ideas although I believe they can be, and are, handled in the 'General' forum. If a user wants to delve into the finer
points of story-telling, there are tons of resources for him to do so without the need for a pinned topic of discussion. That's just my opinion
though so there it is.
I think it would be more useful to create sections that more precisely target both WIP's and the presentation of finished work. I'm well aware that
there is a Showcase section , however a finished video which may have taken a year or more to produce gets lumped in with a barrage of short
'test' clips. It's 'show' life works out to maybe two hours on the top of the list before it begins to sink into the depths of obscurity, smothered in a sea
of one minute clips with no story connection at all.
These sections should be reserved for finished stories and WIP's, exclusively, with test clips remaining in the Showcase section. As there are not tons
of finished stories being produced daily, the 'show' life of each individual story will be much longer, allowing for more viewing, and comment, by the community.
If it is finished work that we are endeavoring to produce with this software then there should be a Forum location for the presentation for it that is separate
and exclusive to 'finished work'. (or WIP's in it's section.)
As an artist that uses Iclone to produce digital illustrations, you might suspect that I would like to see a pinned showcase exclusively for the showing of
illustrative work using Iclone. Well, you'd be correct. Illustration, with the help of the "Banner of the Month" competition, is becoming a larger part of the
Iclone creative process. Iclone has improved to the point where it can compete in quality to Daz for static rendering. This should be encouraged as with
IC's ability to import assets combined with it's ability to create stunning sets, the artist has more flexibility with IC than he or she has using Daz's premade
sets. It would be profitable, I believe, for Reallusion to highlight this expanding ability of its' software.
:cool: pete
|
|
By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago
|
Peterblood's comment .....
".... I think it would be more useful to create sections that more precisely target both WIP's and the presentation of finished work ....."
Now that seems to be a very tidy idea indeed. Saves on unnecessary replication of what can be handled in the General section.
|
|
By animagic - 8 Years Ago
|
I'm slowly emerging from my move and associated disconnectedness.
I have to weigh in my support for a separate Creative/Filmmaking section. The problem with the General section is that is "general" and oftentimes unfocussed. We recently had some interesting discussions about filmmaking and in order for them not to be snowed under it would by nice to have them in a separate section. The Showcase section is like the General area that it is uncategorized and unfocussed. It is also not a place where much discussion takes place.
Actually, the lack of a forum as we are discussing has led to formation of a Facebook group, but I personnaly don't really like that format. It just shows that there is an interest among iClone users for something more.
|
|
By scarimike - 8 Years Ago
|
I think it's a great idea. I would love to be part of it.
I have some questions? Do you make a scene, then put it in a video editing program or is there a way to and titles and text? What is the preferred way of doing it?
Thanks
Mike
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
|
scarimike (2/22/2018)
Do you make a scene, then put it in a video editing program or is there a way to and titles and text? What is the preferred way of doing it?
Titles and text are best done in a video editing program (a.k.a. NLE - Non-linear editor).
You can do some overlays in iClone, but you will have much more capability and flexibility in an NLE.
The same is true for audio. You can add musing and sound effects in iClone (I usually apply them to appropriately-named dummy props), but you don't have much control over volume. So I will replace all that audio (and add more) in my NLE where I have much more control.
|
|
By AutoDidact - 8 Years Ago
|
|
I agree there should be a dedicated filmaking forum but would it be restricted to Films "made" excusively within Iclone?? I use Iclone pro 6.5 pipeline to create character animation as part of My larger pipeline that includes Daz Genesis figures (animated with Iclone, lipsynched in Daz studio) Natural Motions Endorphin( ragdoll physics with BVH export) All of which is ultimately Exported from Daz studio as .obj/MDD files to Maxon Cinema4D for final rendering with post effects done in Adobe After Effects CS.
|
|
By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago
|
@AutoDidact
I suggest that we all use loads of other packages to produce the final result. So long as RL products are in there somewhere I don't see why anyone should be upset over a lack of purity.
|
|
By argus1000 - 8 Years Ago
|
AutoDidact (2/24/2018)
I agree there should be a dedicated filmaking forum but would it be restricted to Films "made" excusively within Iclone?? I use Iclone pro 6.5 pipeline to create character animation as part of My larger pipeline that includes Daz Genesis figures (animated with Iclone, lipsynched in Daz studio) Natural Motions Endorphin( ragdoll physics with BVH export) All of which is ultimately Exported from Daz studio as .obj/MDD files to Maxon Cinema4D for final rendering with post effects done in Adobe After Effects CS.
You still use Endorphin? I can't even install it on Windows 10, even with the dongle. I have to use my older computer with Windows 7 to be able to use that feature-rich discontinued program.
|
|
By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
|
AutoDidact (2/24/2018)
I agree there should be a dedicated filmaking forum but would it be restricted to Films "made" excusively within Iclone??
I think the point of such a section is that it goes above and beyond the tool being used.
It would not be a place to showcase movies made elsewhere, but would be a place to discuss "what" to do, "why" to do it, and "when" to do it. Then in the iClone section you could ask "how" questions in terms of the mechanics of operating the tool.
|
|
By AutoDidact - 8 Years Ago
|
|
SeanMac (2/24/2018)
@AutoDidact
I suggest that we all use loads of other packages to produce the final result. So long as RL products are in there somewhere I don't see why anyone should be upset over a lack of purity.
Agreed!! I would love to discuss actual animated film making it is a bit frustrating to attempt actual filmaking discussions at the Daz forums, where 99 percent of the users are one framers and the few who do animate typically do short 30-60 second "Clips" of some scantily clad female simply walking or dancing. And no one seems to be making actual feature length films in the Maxon C4D community as C4D has rubbish character animation tools. @argus1000 Indeed I am on Win7 SP1 and shall remain Gotta Love Endoprhin mate!! There has not been anything like it for the general public since Natural Motion Dissappeared, except for some really proprietary stuff that Maya uses for VFX or the in house solutions at places like Weta Digital. Although you can do some really cool ragdoll with the old poser physics plugin for poser pro 2014 or earlier I am also still running the discontinued Daz mimic pro3 32bit, as none of the Daz native lipsinc options that followed it have an actual phoneme editor to refine the lipsynch animation after recording.
|
|
By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago
|
I think this section can be a place also to show Broadcast film/serie/short rendered with game engine. I find some interesting info to know
why/how they achieved their product. It's very motivating for me.
This is a serie of a Quebec production rendered in UDK 4 :
A french production that I saw it this morning on Yoopa channel :
https://blogs.unity3d.com/2017/02/23/mr-carton-the-worlds-first-cartoon-series-madewithunity/
A Pakistan production for a movie :
https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/visually-stunning-animated-feature-allahyar-and-the-legend-of-markhor-is-the-first-produced-entirely-in-unreal-engine
I noticed that at this time there're only Cartoonish commercial production . I didn't find realistic commercial movie/serie rendered in Game Engine.
But there's some laboratory experience in the realistic field:
Hellblade rendered in UDK 4
And this amazing ADAM serie rendered in Unity but I really doesn't understand what is it for...
I do not want to make a financially profitable film but knowing what's going on on the broadcast field is
a good source of inspiration for me for my creation/build process.
|
|
By Peter (RL) - 8 Years Ago
|
Apologies for the late reply to this thread. Unfortunately due to other work duties I have not had chance to be as active on the forum as I would like.
We do appreciate all the feedback and will be doing a review of the forum in the coming weeks. Personally I do feel we have to be careful not to over complicate the forum with too many sub-forums or sub-sections.
It has always been the case that new users often feel overwhelmed by the number of different forum sections and will often just go to the first forum (Reallusion > General) and post there regardless.
However we will review the forum layout soon to see where we can improve things. In the meantime please do feel free to add further suggestions. :)
|