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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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The path tools really need work for iclone 6 release. I am not trying to rag out or rant here.
I genuinely enjoy working with the iclone. There are many things that make some joy for me.
I have found intermittent problems when I use path. I am reluctant to use it.
The procedures for creating and editing paths have their own issues as well.
Example:
I was working with 3 avatars 3 paths, when the elevator doors opened they each had their own set path. The avatars were to walk out of the elevator on their own individual path to advance into the scene and make a sweeping turn to the left and walk "in human terms" about 20 feet and stop.
Each avatar was set on the timeline to walk out of the elevator on at a time. In other words, to give each avatar time to be clear of the other avatars when walking.
Stupidly, sometimes they would walk out on the path assigned to them respectively. Other times they would take the path of one of the other avatars. I did not change the assigned paths in the timeline. This kind of action took place on reruns of the project.
I thought this must be that 3 paths were defined in close proximity to each to start. In other words I had to allow space for the path away from the elevator doors on each side and space for the paths of each avatar.
I also had just about as much space as possible for the avatars to make large sweeping turns to avoid them crossing over to another path. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
The end result. I worked the project with as few walking scenes as possible. This is really not in the spirit of good production. You need avatars walking, walking and talking when the need is there.
I didn't solve my problems, but I did finally do this. I right clicked avatar clicked perform/walk forward and then selected a path icon. This worked better than trying to create and path clearly defined in increments of movement along the path line.
I finally got the avatars into the scene, arriving from the elevator and leaving the scene by walking into the elevator.
Clearly, the final steps for avatars following a path are bad as well. Maybe, there is a fix for this as well I've not read. I have been cutting to above waist shots when the avatars conclude their little walk on the path. This was when I used several different avatar persona.
I just could not get them to stop directly. Some kind of stutter steps at the end.
Next, What about the edit path. What is that rotate tool? I finally gave up trying to turn those little icons with that tool. I really don't understand that yellow ring thing, and what I read in the docs didn't declare it's mysteries. What happened to the standard rotate tool we use throughout the rest of iclone?
My solution to edit the path....I deleted the troubling path and created a new path. The edit tool is just not good. This is not a well done, or competent tool as it is. It is just one more major time waster and cause for infuriation, especially after you have expended over an hour trying to get something done.
Dismiss me, as you will. I believe there are plenty of other iclone users that "enjoy" similar strange behavior and fails with path. This is a major tool for use in iclone and it should be addressed and reworked for easy competent use.
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By justaviking - 11 Years Ago
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I think I can help you with the "rotate" and "yellow rings" topic... if I'm understanding you correctly. The path markers provide an "up" direction that will rotate your avatar (or prop) as it follows along the path. WHY would you want to do that? - If you have a wagon rolling down a hill, you can simulate it following the terrain without involving physics. It will pitch and roll as it goes over bumps and lumps.
- If you are flying an airplane, it can follow the path, and will roll and pitch as it goes around curves.
The advantage is that the roll and pitch "naturally" follows the path, without you having to laboriously key frame the rotation of the prop. (It can also make your avatar walk while leaning to the side, in case you need to alter gravity for some strange reason.)
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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Viking
I was using the path the other night and when I placed the little path icons they were refusing to stand up straight. Maybe, I did somthing, but I can't think of what I did. I tried several times and got the same results.
THen I went into edit path and tried to straighten them up. I could not get the yellow tool to straighten them up.
Seriously, that yellow circle thing is irratic. I tried and tried. I could get the icons to move around, swivel but I couldn't find a connection with that yellow tool thing and getting that done.
After about a half dozen rebuilds of the path the lcons stood up straight.
Selecting those little path icons in edit path is a pain as well. Click on the avatar, edit path, click on the icon, etc. I think sometimes you have to get the cursor in some precise position. Usually, I place the cursor on the icon the arrow or dome, still that doesn't mean the click on will take.
Like you refer...why would I want the icons to be leaning anyway.
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By DELETED2 - 11 Years Ago
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I love the path tool. It's something we awaited a long time for. BUT..... I could really do with the means to choose whether the adjacent points to the one being elevated or moved DID or did NOT move sympathetically. Either I've missed something, or it isn't possible. Armstrong. Reposting image from my own server below. 
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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IMO, from what I've experienced I can appreciate having the path tool.
Yet, let us straight talk here. It works and has problems.
Now that many issues have been aired it is time RL made improvements.
RL might have done a release to keep complaints down and basically left us to it.
Not that RL didn't intend to make it right or anything. It is just proverbial.
"Barking dogs get fed first".
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By prabhatM - 11 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/29/2014)
WHY would you want to do that? - If you have a wagon rolling down a hill, you can simulate it following the terrain without involving physics. It will pitch and roll as it goes over bumps and lumps.
- If you are flying an airplane, it can follow the path, and will roll and pitch as it goes around curves.
Or, simply a butterfly flying away.
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By thebiz.movies - 11 Years Ago
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Or a vehicle in flight pitching as it turns.
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By colour - 11 Years Ago
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@ Rampart 1) Characters & Props etc, Attach to a Path. 2) Characters can Walk Forward to a Path's 1st Control Point when Selected, via Character Right-click Walk Forward Command & will continue walking. Or you can add a Character to the 1st Control Point & then Apply a Walking Template Motion & Loop it for the duration of the Path. 3) Paths can be Transformed by Right-Clicking on the Path / Edit / Toolbar Move/Rotate Gizmos. 4) Control Points can be Deleted / Added / Transformed, by Right-Clicking on the Control Points / Edit / Toolbar Move/Rotate Gizmos. 5) Paths can be added to & Follow Terrains. 6) In some situations, you need to place a Floor under a Path & Add it To Terrain, to prevent the Path falling to the Grid (Ground Level) & where a Terrain undulates under eg; Water. Paths can be tricky & need a lot of repetitive practice. There are many situations where Character Walk Forward Command & left-Clicking a point in the Viewport where you want the Character to walk Forward to, will suffice. If you don't get it right 1st time, just selecting other points, fixes it. Mark has an excellent Video tutorial for a Character Following a Path & stopping at various Points, with body Animation, eg; waving etc..
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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Colour
I get your point.
You can educate your drawers off, but the path has problems.
You are giving RL a backdoor out of this issue.
Go back and read my opening thread. This was not stuff I dreamed up.
I kept getting tilting path icons and there was no reason for it. The were place on a floor.
The golden circle thing is totally out of place and doesn't follow the conventions of the tools we use throughout iclone for rotation. I could not determine how to use the circle to straighten up the path icons. I reworked the paths for the 3 avatars and spent around 3 hours trying to get 3 avatars out of an elevator.
My opinion on this. RL contracted for the path or used some pre-existing code. The code had a yellow circle for rotation and they just put it out to us "AS IS".
What about avatars that were definitely assigned to a separate path and they crossed over and used the paths of other avatars?
You can experiment and experience all you like. If there are conditions that must be met for proper operation of the path...then RL should be the exclaimer of that news. We should not have to experiment to compensate for anomalies and things that don't work.
You can defend RL and give me some lessons. I don't mind the lessons, because I believe you have that right as a friend and fellow icloner. The RL defense is not valid.
RL should improve the path
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By justaviking - 11 Years Ago
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rampart (1/30/2014)
RL should improve the path
Agreed. Your original posting did an excellent job of explaining some of the issues with paths in their current state.
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By colour - 11 Years Ago
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I was merely offering some "Pointers", in case you weren't aware of them, Rampart. That's all;) I think there's an iClone Tut for Props, anyway, crossing from one Path to another. However, since they're are Attached to one Path, IMO, they'd need to be Detached first. I've used Multiple Paths for 6 horses running in a Horse Race. None of those erroneously crossed to another Path. You can have several Props/Characters on the same Path, following each other (As per my Aircraft Dog Fight Clip) & possibly a selected group following the same Path (Haven't tried it). I have a green Control Point Rotate Gizmo, here (See Seceenshot). Not Yellow. Characters stuttering at the end of a Path was discussed in depth & detail some time-ago. Mark's relevant Video Tutorial at the time, provided a Fix. Go to his YouTube Channel / Tutorials. Screenshot: 
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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colour (1/30/2014)
I was merely offering some "Pointers", in case you weren't aware of them, Rampart. That's all;)
I think there's an iClone Tut for Props, anyway, crossing from one Path to another. However, since they're are Attached to one Path, IMO,they'd need to beDetached first.
I've used Multiple Paths for 6 horses running in a Horse Race. None of thoseerroneously crossed to another Path.
I did not detach any avatar from it's path. The avatars had a mind of their own. :)
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By Peter (RL) - 11 Years Ago
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Hi Rampart, Thank you for the feedback. Some of the issues you mention are certainly not expected behaviour so there may be other issues going on there. If you have a saved project that shows these issues occurring, please do let Support see it. We can then check to see what the problem may be. Thanks.
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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Peter
I will go back through some of the projects to see, if I saved any projects that had these problems. I am not sure I will find any. When I had the problems I fixed what I could before saving.
You might suggest the persons that are familiar with the path read this thread. I am not the only one that experiences these kinds of things.
If I get some time over the next couple days I may even try to duplicate the issues.
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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I really want to make sure this message is clear.
The animation tools for path and motions NEED WORK.
Start with this link and advance through several days of discussion about relevant issues.
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost185429.aspx
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate RL efforts to give us more extensive library of content items.
More content is not the most important thing we need at this time
There are problems with the animation tools that need work, and RL needs to deal with them.
The reason I emphasize this is because IC6 is soon to be released. We need to see real improvements in core functions of iclone.
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By animagic - 11 Years Ago
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I had never had problems with paths, but tonight I did. I had a path for a car, which worked as expected. I then wanted a character to walk without using a path and what happened was that the character moved to the path and started to follow it. The path was not assigned to the character nor was the character particularly close to the path. So that looks like an issue to me, which should be easy to repeat.
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By colour - 11 Years Ago
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"animagic (5/10/2014)
I had never had problems with paths, but tonight I did. I had a path for a car, which worked as expected. I then wanted a character to walk without using a path and what happened was that the character moved to the path and started to follow it. The path was not assigned to the character nor was the character particularly close to the path. So that looks like an issue to me, which should be easy to repeat." IMO, that isn't a Bug, Job. See Screenshot, where Pinhead walks to & carries on walking along the Path up the ramp & runs-down the same Path. Another Character follows him down the same path. Fairly quick & easy to do, as intended, Previously I had Pinhead/other Character Picking Path & Applying a Walk/Run Forward Motion, because that's the only way to do it with Props. EG; the Dog. I had forgotten the Character right-click, walk /Run Forward method & got into a muddle. Screenshot deliberately only shows the Path (Don't want to give the game away, but you can guess ;)) Screenshot: 
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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I find it interesting, deja vu
I remember the old MSFT days when I spent alot of my time being a "non-paid" beta tester for MSFT.
One user says it's OK, another says it's not OK and devs go with the one that says it's OK.
Eventually, someone finally hits on the issue so hard and explains it so well...it has to be fixed.
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The iclone basic animation movements methods for walking, turning, stopping, running, walking stairs and then applying motion content are too difficult and tedious to apply. I mean the most important movements are having the avatars move from place to place in scenes. I've mentioned many times how just having an avatar turn and face another direction, or applying a motion at the end of a path has problems.
Simple motions along paths are not that simple, and if you apply a library motion to an avatar that has just completed a path the motions may turn the avatar a different direction and you have to go into the timeline and make keyframe adjustments to get things moving again.
I realize there are many iclone users that just bite the bullet and do what it takes. The problem is... it takes entirely too long to set your scenes and actors and their movements within the scenes. I am thinking about the basic body motions of avatars moving from one place to another and making normal movements. I'm not as concerned about above the waist and facial movements, these are motions I don't need until my scenes are mostly complete.
Here is the muvizu video.
https://www.muvizu.com/Video/17237/Tutorial-19-Directing-Character-movement
I hope the RL devs take a hard look at this and get the idea. Basic simple walking, running, turning, stopping, starting, resuming walk in various directions, etc. should be very simply done in RL. I'm not interested to do muvizu. I create more realistic non-cartoon videos and iclone suits that need.
I would just appreciate RL taking a strong interest in this and providing better solutions.
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By colour - 11 Years Ago
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"rampart (5/11/2014)
I find it interesting, deja vu
I remember the old MSFT days when I spent alot of my time being a "non-paid" beta tester for MSFT.
One user says it's OK, another says it's not OK and devs go with the one that says it's OK.
Eventually, someone finally hits on the issue so hard and explains it so well...it has to be fixed.
--------------------
The iclone basic animation movements methods for walking, turning, stopping, running, walking stairs and then applying motion content are too difficult and tedious to apply. I mean the most important movements are having the avatars move from place to place in scenes. I've mentioned many times how just having an avatar turn and face another direction, or applying a motion at the end of a path has problems.
Simple motions along paths are not that simple, and if you apply a library motion to an avatar that has just completed a path the motions may turn the avatar a different direction and you have to go into the timeline and make keyframe adjustments to get things moving again.
I realize there are many iclone users that just bite the bullet and do what it takes. The problem is... it takes entirely too long to set your scenes and actors and their movements within the scenes. I am thinking about the basic body motions of avatars moving from one place to another and making normal movements. I'm not as concerned about above the waist and facial movements, these are motions I don't need until my scenes are mostly complete.
Here is the muvizu video.
https://www.muvizu.com/Video/17237/Tutorial-19-Directing-Character-movement
I hope the RL devs take a hard look at this and get the idea. Basic simple walking, running, turning, stopping, starting, resuming walk in various directions, etc. should be very simply done in RL. I'm not interested to do muvizu, because I do more realistic non-cartoon videos.
"I think your & Job's problem are similar in that you had Characters unintended crossing from one Path to another & Job has a Character walking unintended on a Path, when it should be alongside. If you use Character Right-click Walk Forward Command, the Character will Walk to & Follow a Path. If you apply a Walk Motion Template, it won't switch Paths or Walk Forward & Follow a Path.. It's obvious that I'm not amongst the best iClone Character Animators, but I'm getting there very slowly. My intention is to concentrate on developing Pinhead "Slapstick" Character Animations. So, at some point, I'll pigeon-hole all of iClone Character Animations, to produce my own workflow, using all of them. Eg; combining them into fluid Motions, which as we all know, is darned-difficult to do, without very time-consuming workarounds. My aim is to try & eliminate some of them. iClone has more-or-less become a "One suit fits all" Program. So there are many different ways to skin the same cat. Muviztu is limited to a particular Cartoon style. There's no comparison, IMO. That being said, we're all entitled to Post opinions - Right or wrong ;) Don't know what MSFT is? Microsoft File Table ;)
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By animagic - 11 Years Ago
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Peter, well, it was somewhat unexpected...:crazy: I usually use paths, but this was simply a matter of the charcater walking forward away from and not even near the path. So he started indeed in the intended direction and then turned around to follow the path. I don't really like that behavior, but if that is the way it is supposed to work, so be it...:unsure:
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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Colour
MSFT = microsoft
I don't give a flip for the muvizu application for my uses. Look at the way the movement of characters is managed in the video. Very simple, no keyframing, no paths and other time consuming mumbo jumbo.
I am not advocating Muvizu. It is an example to show there are other ways to do things that are in fact much simpler and faster to animate certain types of movements.
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By colour - 11 Years Ago
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"rampart (5/11/2014)
Colour
MSFT = microsoft
I don't give a flip for the muvizu application for my uses. Look at the way the movement of characters is managed in the video. Very simple, no keyframing, no paths and other time consuming mumbo jumbo.
I am not advocating Muvizu. It is an example to show there are other ways to do things that are in fact much simpler and faster to animate certain types of movements.
"I was only kidding re; M$FT, Rampart ;) IBM Retiree, here ;) IBM employed "Our Bill" to get them out of a hole with IBM DOS, with MSDOS. Bill retained the License to use, putting him on the road to his first millions, made off the back of IBM PCs. A very astute businessman.
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By rampart - 11 Years Ago
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Gates was world class lucky...like a lotto winner.
Just because people run a big huge "Blue" company doesn't mean they have any common sense. IBM execs gave up DOS to Gates. I always equated them to this brilliant fellow "Gomer Pyle".
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