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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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Too bad. A bad day for innovative developments!
RL has introduced a new series of restrictions on avatars to be imported into iClone. Many items developed by me, under the brand APPARITION, have been made inoperative by the arbitrary restrictions imposed. Other developers products as well are affected by the restriction! Remember Hulk and the Xformers? THEY DO NOT WORK ANYMORE! Remember the Mold-A-Hat, Non Penetrating hair by Apparition? Won't work anymore! Remember the outstanding DressWizard beautiful products? THEY WON'T WORK anymore! I don't think even my Stunt Doubles, ready to be released will be possible... 1 Year Work thrown to the garbage!.
Now, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to create accessories which use skin modifier to provide non penetrating, bending, cloth conforming accessories. Not anymore!
Version 5.0 was fine! But RL took the measure of preventing clever skinned products from being loaded into iClone after that version!
Why did they do that? Because once in a while a user would incorrectly delete an accessory controller, like the Skirt Controller in DressWizard products, and such thing would create a crash.
The correct, STANDARD way to solve the problem was to enable a warning or rejection to delete the important objects, to preserve the product functionality and NOT to simply destroy backwards compatibility.
RL took the easy way for them, caring NOTHING for Developer efforts!
If you perceive certain anger in my post, it is TRUE! I am really disappointed with the changes done! I feel there will be many iClone users encountering problems with older products which were PERFECTLY functional with former iClone versions.
I do HOPE Reallusion will understand what they are doing and revert the meassures, substituting them by simple user warnings and not destructive locks which render many products useless!
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By rampart - 13 Years Ago
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Since DAZ3D has gone to delivering their applications for free, those being, Bryce, Daz3d and Hexagon. I would say animation application developers are looking to the content market for serious increases in their profits for the future. Oh yes, they will probably continue to do some upgrading of their applications. Yet, I suspect the applications and the content items will become more tied to each other very carefully. In other words, proprietary. Cars have built in obsolescence, Computers,TVs, toasters, refrigerators, ipads, ipods, iphones, etc. No one wants to build anything nowadays that will continue to work with the old stuff. We used to have AGP slots for video cards, then we went to the old PCI with a change in the pinouts, then to PCI=E, then PCI-Express 1.0, then PCI-2.0, etc. Each new requirement in the video card plugin slot means people must buy new motherboards, new processors, new video cards, etc. So.. apparition you don't have a chance. It is the built in obsolescene we all deal with on a daily basis. Worst part of it is, you can't fix it, repair it or tweak it. It must be replaced completely. I suspect there is one thing you can count upon the animation developers are going to push their applications in the future to updated content items, which they sell. They have found a mutual fit for their applications. If you as a content developer don't get with the program... you won't be in the program. You will not be able to post content for sale and have it work within the applications as in the past. Everything is going to be driven to newer and newer things, regardless of the need. I would suggest you bite your tongue and find a way to facilitate your content to those application developers. Your uniqueness has been an outstanding feature of your content, but you must always strive to be a good fit with the animation applications for whom you produce content. This is my opinion only. I appreciate all your outstanding work and will continue to use apparition content. When I was a soccer coach I always told the boys, there is nothing fair, you make your own breaks, and always have to do your best, even when the other team has a 12th man on the field (referee).
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By animagic - 13 Years Ago
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rampart, it is not just developers who suffer, it's also those who bought their products, who are now confronted with items they can no longer use. If products become inoperable within a major release cycle going from 5.0 to 5.x, something is seriously wrong. That is not progress, just bad development. The approach to make products just non-functional to solve problems in the software is not the way to go. Many innovations have been brought forth by third-party developers, so it is in nobody's interest to obstruct their work. We wouldn't want them to stop pushing the limits.
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By rampart - 13 Years Ago
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I do have compassion for the content developers and users for sure. This is not first time I have seen and experienced first hand this kind of thing. The core developer always has the upper hand, especially if you are dependent up on the core developer's work. It doesn't seem right, but it is the way it is. :sick: As long as it is a little buggy.. we can expect things to change that may not be popular. I'm a fan of Apparition, so don't read anything negative into my posting. I have compassion and I am concerned. The problem is... I can't do a darn thing about it. :w00t: If enough people complain, then we might get somewhere.
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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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Dear friends posting:
I appreciate your concerns. Probably Rampart, good friend indeed, needs some explanation on what actually is happening!
First I can assure you I am not concerned about RL taking my words in a bad perception. They KNOW what they have done and are having discussions regarding the subject.
It is NOT a good practice in the software industry to make older developments obsolete and always there is extreme care in preserving compatibility, mainly in favor of the end user rights, who has acquired a program or its contents and has payed for it!
But in my case, not only end user rights are stumped over but MANY NEW developments, fresh and innovative have been killed prior to any of them being released. So you can see it is not "old" things being jeopardized but the actual content development as well!
I would expect other developers, which right now are "saying nothing", maybe scared by the "corporate strong image", should come up and realize the development ambience is NOT SAFE neither stimulating, knowing standards set in previous version won't work in the future.
RL has the chance of testing products before being released, when this products are submitted to the Content Store. Why then those products, "not exactly by-the-book" were accepted and sold and a substantial profit came from them? Why?
Thanks for the support.
I really would expect other developers to feel free and not obliged to remain silent just because "political convenience"... :cool:
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By moviemaker100 - 13 Years Ago
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I think, these two vids dooown in the thread will explain, where is really the problem: https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic95227-281-41.aspx
Physics are messed up! Since 5.22, so I think (because of other problems with f.e. 3ds facial animations, too).
Anyway: At 5.1. all was fine. Since 5.23, IC has a big problem....
"Finished" physics-props like destructible walls are unaffected. But a lot other things just don´t work anymore.
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By Bigboss - 13 Years Ago
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Sorry for being a little late in this thread but I am releasing a lot of new products this month and it has taken a lot of my attention... :) Mike has a point, it is quite frustrating to introduce innovative products to find out afterwards that they no longer work with iClone. I had this very same issue just recently with my Genie and its wiggling tail for the Pinhead Movie. I have since provided a fix to a few users who encountered the same issue but I would have preferred that iClone kept the compatibility as in my case, it was not armfull since it was impossible for the user to do anything that would cause iClone to crash... Generally speaking, being able to add extra bones controller objects skinned to a standard character is a powerful thing. Perhaps the Reallusion solutions would have been simply to disallow detaching of controllers and the saving of separate body parts when such condtion is encountered. :cool: It is not too late :) However, the real solution is to allow for saving the skeleton and skin information with all body parts regardless of the skeleton structure !!! :cool: Cheers :)
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By mjordy - 13 Years Ago
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It must be very disappointing for all of you developers that Reallusion has gone through so many update versions of the original Iclone5,that are not backward compatible.:w00t: It's the main reason I still drag all my published animations with Iclone 4 Pro,and only use Iclone 5 Pro rarely. Most if not all,different 3D applications Like Max,DAZ,Poser,etc. offered more compatibility with older models than Iclone 5 Pro does. And it's a monumental waste of 3D resources that we have been accumulating since the older versions of Iclone.
If Reallusion decides to come up with a new update for Iclone 5 Pro, I will consider scrapping Iclone 5 Pro altogether and revert back to Iclone 4 Pro only. Too Bad!
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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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BigBoss input here is HIGHLY appreciated! He is presenting good solutions for the problems created by RL development, trying to get rid of some minor crash possibilities! I do like both alternatives presented by BigBoss as he demonstrates a clear and deep understanding of iClone internals! I also applaud his assertions about "Still being in time" to recover for the wrong implementation of restrictions and traps. I could not say it any better!
At this point, assuming RL important persons with decision power are reading this posts, I would recommend taking one step further to support the advanced developer community. It is: Finish and complete the MAX export plugin!
RL MUST allow at least the following MINIMAL features:
- OPTIONAL extensive parsing. Actual parsing is tremendously exaggerated. - ACCESSORY EXPORTATION. Allow objects linked to bones! Just like OLD iC4 plugin! - ACCESSORY RIGGING to cloth parts, Upper, Lower, Hair, and better to Hands and Shoes. - FULL PROP EXPORT including multiple prop export - SPRING CHAIN attachment to bones. Possibly others by CCDs inclusion here!
About iClone URGENT fixes and changes:
- SUBSTITUTE ACCESSORY TRAP for a deletion lock, so accessories exported with character become impossible to be deleted. - ALLOW ACCESSORIES to be part of the Cloth rig chain.
IF this changes are implemented crash proofing will work WITHOUT limiting Developer possibilities or turning previous developments unusable!
I think these are logical, correct, and desirable adjustments required so we, developers can keep producing attractive products for iClone!
Developers: PLEASE SIGN AND ENDORSE THIS PETITION!
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By sharad.inc - 13 Years Ago
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I support the above petition - am sure RL will take the corrective steps - I just hope they do it sooner than later ..
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By Vit3D - 13 Years Ago
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Yes, new version of pluging is the thing I'm looking forward most of all! I only can add one wish, which can be biggest gift for me -- removing limitation on number of connection vertexes between body parts. -- This limit significantly reduce the quality of my models... I think that maybe fixed number of connections between body and head is really necessary because "in fact" they are independent structures, but I do not think that it's impossible to remove this limitation for other body parts connectors.
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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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Well sw0000p.... It seems you are right! I got a very "polite" letter telling me RL would be happier if from now on I go "by-the-stiff-book"... Like telling a sculptor: "Hey man, stop doing artwork. Start doing bricks!"
But I WILL find ways to fool the silly "By-The-Book" rules....
Hear me RL? :)
Mike
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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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New findings!
I also found recently, iClone 5.23 is really acting like an arbitrary judge to product imports! I produced a TOTALLY BY-THE-BOOK item with MAX 2011. No tricks, no frills, no nothing except an upper cloth attached to the upper body part!
iClone grays out the Upper,Lower,Shoes, globes, etc!
IClone seems to "love" now graying out whatever comes out of MAX, but randomly!
Be ready Vit3D! Be Ready BigBoss!, Be ready all daring MAX to iCLone developers! You will find a stump block right there!
Alley is my witness!
Any Developer wanting to test the MAX 2011 file by himself and see if I am blowing this out of proportion, PM me and I will gladly send the MAX file for you to see where I am "doing wrong against the by-the-book police!
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By rampart - 13 Years Ago
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Innovative content developers will go to someone else, if RL can't accommodate techno growth.
:w00t:
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By Apparition - 13 Years Ago
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MUCH BETTER!
I do APPRECIATE the efforts done by RL genial R&D team!
Many of the issues have been fixed in last patch!
Just an issue about Dress Wizard remains but I think I can work around it, although latest mail from RL makes me build up more hope and will wait before doing major design changes!
I just want to express my thanks for all the support and of course for the efforts done by RL to bring iClone 5 to a much more reliable level!
Congratulations!
Mike
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