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Linking problems

Posted By mikethe3dguy 9 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
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colour (9/14/2017)
Bone Root is a "theoretical" point at the base of a Character, to which the Bone Tree, Transforms & Animations are attached.& Camera Links. There was some discussion between myself & Rampa some time-ago, that the Bone Root should be at Character's pelvis. Rampa produced a Tut to move it. Unlike Props, Characters don't have moveable pivot points. EG ; Rotating a Character on Y Axis, uses the Bone Root at feet, as Pivot Point. If Pivot Point was at Pelvis, Character would Rotate correctly, like a propeller. Putting it simply. Nothing to do with selecting individual "physical" bones.

WOW! 
With the deepest respect.... You can place the pivot anywhere you wish.
Reallusion placed the pivot there,
but....
I move it and place  ALL of my characters pivot "ON THE HIP"

Please understand that when you say, "Unlike Props, Characters don't have moveable pivot points"

When Skin and Bones are involved:
"If a prop is skinned to bones.... Can you move it's pivot???"
Yes, of course you can.
~ Make sure the skin is off or not enabled.
~ Move the pivot.
~ enable the skin

Note:
The same is true for bones, too.

Example: "Look at what Reallusion does."
If you select both Arm bones.... click the Rotation gizmo.... rotate on (1) axis....
What Happens???
Both arms rotate in the SAME direction.

Now.... if you create (2) bones (At the Center of the World)
~ (1) bone is on the "Left Side" of (zero - Center of the World)
~ (1) bone is on the "Right Side" of (zero - Center of the World)
...and you select both bones and Rotate them.... "Do they rotate in the SAME direction??"
NO.

why?

Because the pivot axis are different.
~ the bone on the left side (Axis) positive direction is "Pointing to the Left"
~ the bone on the right side (Axis) positive directions is "Point to the "Right"
...therefore, they rotate in opposite directions.

BUT the Reallusion arms rotate in the same direction.
Yes.... RL CHANGED the Right Bone's Axis. (To MATCH the Left Arms Rotation Axis)

This is known as "Relative Rotation"
"A rigging technique used to speed up production." :Wow:


This is to show you ..... You can place the pivot ANYWHERE you want.

Don't like where RL places the pivot.
Change it.... I do!:)

~ Edit and OR MOVE IT
~ Edit the "Working Pivot
~ Effect ONLY the object (leaving the childre ALONE)
....AND MORE!

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/786c670b-d17c-4bb9-94b0-188a.png


but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
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colour (9/14/2017)
Bone Root is a "theoretical" point at the base of a Character, to which the Bone Tree, Transforms & Animations are attached.& Camera Links. There was some discussion between myself & Rampa some time-ago, that the Bone Root should be at Character's pelvis. Rampa produced a Tut to move it. Unlike Props, Characters don't have moveable pivot points. EG ; Rotating a Character on Y Axis, uses the Bone Root at feet, as Pivot Point. If Pivot Point was at Pelvis, Character would Rotate correctly, like a propeller. Putting it simply. Nothing to do with selecting individual "physical" bones.

WOW! 
With the deepest respect.... You can place the pivot anywhere you wish.
Reallusion placed the pivot there,
but....
I move it and place  ALL of my characters pivot "ON THE HIP"

Please understand that when you say, "Unlike Props, Characters don't have moveable pivot points"

When Skin and Bones are involved:
"If a prop is skinned to bones.... Can you move it's pivot???"
Yes, of course you can.
~ Make sure the skin is off or not enabled.
~ Move the pivot.
~ enable the skin

Note:
The same is true for bones, too.

Example: "Look at what Reallusion does."
If you select both Arm bones.... click the Rotation gizmo.... rotate on (1) axis....
What Happens???
Both arms rotate in the SAME direction.

Now.... if you create (2) bones (At the Center of the World)
~ (1) bone is on the "Left Side" of (zero - Center of the World)
~ (1) bone is on the "Right Side" of (zero - Center of the World)
...and you select both bones and Rotate them.... "Do they rotate in the SAME direction??"
NO.

why?

Because the pivot axis are different.
~ the bone on the left side (Axis) positive direction is "Pointing to the Left"
~ the bone on the right side (Axis) positive directions is "Point to the "Right"
...therefore, the rotate in opposite directions.

BUT the Reallusion arms rotate in the same direction.
Yes.... RL CHANGE the Right Bone's Axis.

This is known as "Relative Rotation"
This is to show you ..... You can place the pivot ANYWHERE you want.

Don't like where RL places the pivot.
Change it.... I do!:)



colour
colour
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but0fc0ursee (9/14/2017)
colour (9/14/2017)
but0fc0ursee (9/14/2017)
colour (9/14/2017)
I have iC5 & encountered this problem several times. So, it's not Version specific & IMO, User error.

I can't remember exactly what the solution is, without creating the problem. .However, I think the Object you're trying to Link, has already become Attached. You need to un-attach it.

colour,
Just out of curiosity....
When you link (1) character to another character... "What part of the character do you use to link?"

Bone Root.

...forgive me, I don't animate using iClone and I'm very interested understanding Reallusion's method here.

It is clear that when any character is exported to iClone...
~ 3dxchange (Adds) a Root node to the character.
The bone you use....Is it named, "Bone Root" or do you use say.... the hand's "Root Pivot?"

Thanks for you time, colour.



Bone Root is a "theoretical" point at the base of a Character, to which the Bone Tree, Transforms & Animations are attached.& Camera Links. There was some discussion between myself & Rampa some time-ago, that the Bone Root should be at Character's pelvis. Rampa produced a Tut to move it. Unlike Props, Characters don't have moveable pivot points. EG ; Rotating a Character on Y Axis, uses the Bone Root at feet, as Pivot Point. If Pivot Point was at Pelvis, Character would Rotate correctly, like a propeller. Putting it simply. Nothing to do with selecting individual "physical" bones.



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       New Pinhead Website & Project to be announced in September 2015

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but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
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colour (9/14/2017)
but0fc0ursee (9/14/2017)
colour (9/14/2017)
I have iC5 & encountered this problem several times. So, it's not Version specific & IMO, User error.

I can't remember exactly what the solution is, without creating the problem. .However, I think the Object you're trying to Link, has already become Attached. You need to un-attach it.

colour,
Just out of curiosity....
When you link (1) character to another character... "What part of the character do you use to link?"

Bone Root.

...forgive me, I don't animate using iClone and I'm very interested understanding Reallusion's method here.

It is clear that when any character is exported to iClone...
~ 3dxchange (Adds) a Root node to the character.
The bone you use....Is it named, "Bone Root" or do you use say.... the hand's "Root Pivot?"

Thanks for you time, colour.

colour
colour
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mikethe3dguy (9/14/2017)
but0fc0ursee your point about the two characters sharing space sounded like a good possibility, because they certainly are. But I separated them so there was no overlap, and got the same error. When I'm linking, I'm just parenting char 1 to a hand of char 2. I'm pretty new to iClone, but it looks like you link the entire object (in this case character 1) to a body part of character 2. If there is a way to link body part to body part together I don't see it. Your comment about a null object though made me realize that in order to get around the problem I could just create a primitive and link char 1 to it, then it to the body part on char 2. Tried that and it works fine (even though all three objects share space), so thank you.

Colour, if the character shows no "link" or "parent" under Linkage, why would it still be attached to something?

Thanks

You can't Attach a Character, Only Link.

See iC5 Screenshot for correct Linkage. As prev Posted, I can't remember the exact  cause or solution to the Error Message. It didn't involve Nul Objects, or using Dummy Objects. It was User Error, with eventual quick fix. However, since Rampa's now posted, attaching Dummy Object & Linking to that, would solve your immediate problem . ,

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/4706cee3-9369-467f-94a1-9c9a.jpg





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       New Pinhead Website & Project to be announced in September 2015

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colour
colour
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but0fc0ursee (9/14/2017)
colour (9/14/2017)
I have iC5 & encountered this problem several times. So, it's not Version specific & IMO, User error.

I can't remember exactly what the solution is, without creating the problem. .However, I think the Object you're trying to Link, has already become Attached. You need to un-attach it.

colour,
Just out of curiosity....
When you link (1) character to another character... "What part of the character do you use to link?"

Bone Root.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      REALLUSION FORUM ANNUAL PINHEAD COMMUNITY PROJECTS.

       New Pinhead Website & Project to be announced in September 2015

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 


but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
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Hey mikethe3dguy,

Note: (3D Rule)
It's NOT only the Root's object space that does this....
"Linking"....ANY (2) objects sharing the same "Object-Space".... WILL result in...Boing... Errors! :crying:

colour:
World Space
Local Space
...now Object-Space.... several others, too. 

but0fc0ursee
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Hey mikethe3dguy,

Note: (3D Rule)
It's NOT only the Root's object space that does this....
ANY (2) objects sharing the same "Object-Space".... WILL result in unexpected behavior.
...Boing... Errors! :crying:

but0fc0ursee
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mikethe3dguy (9/14/2017)
but0fc0ursee your point about the two characters sharing space sounded like a good possibility, because they certainly are. 
...But I separated them so there was no overlap, and got the same error.


No, No.... overlap is NOT the problem.
The "Roots" object-space "Is a HOG!":P...and will over-rule ANYTHING in it space.
Often resulting in a "Cycle Redundancy Loop" error.

YES.... null objects (dummy's)....BREAKS the hierarchy.... therefore removing the error!

...many have no clue to what I'm saying.
Thank you for understanding.

Rampa
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Linking body-part to body-part can be done a different way. It does require additional "dummy" objects and using them as reach targets.

You can attach or link objects (usually just small cubes is fine) to the bones of one character and use the reach target of the other character to reach for that object. The object will move with the bone of the first character, and the second character will move with the reaching to the object.

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