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How do you justify the cost of this "Live Plugin" ?

Posted By davev 3 Months Ago
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davev
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OK, I look at it like this: On one hand I have MotionBuilder, a high level professional character animation program and I can get a FREE unreal live link plugin that will do everything the "Reallusion LiveLink" will do between MB and and Unreal. Same For Maya, a FREE unreal Livelink plugin. Reallusion, a program that Yes, I own, but would never say it has anywhere near the tools available in MotionBuilder, wants me to buy a $700 Plugin that will do what the "Free" plugins from MotionBuilder and Maya will do? Personally I think if they made the plugin free or at least affordable for a hobbyist, they would likely sell alot more copies of Iclone and CC3 in order for people to use the plugin - But, NOT MY call.........
toystorylab
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Yo, I fully agree with this...


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Peter (RL)
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davev (9/16/2019)
OK, I look at it like this: On one hand I have MotionBuilder, a high level professional character animation program and I can get a FREE unreal live link plugin that will do everything the "Reallusion LiveLink" will do between MB and and Unreal. Same For Maya, a FREE unreal Livelink plugin. Reallusion, a program that Yes, I own, but would never say it has anywhere near the tools available in MotionBuilder, wants me to buy a $700 Plugin that will do what the "Free" plugins from MotionBuilder and Maya will do? Personally I think if they made the plugin free or at least affordable for a hobbyist, they would likely sell alot more copies of Iclone and CC3 in order for people to use the plugin - But, NOT MY call.........


Thanks for the feedback but just look at the cost of the software involved to find out why we sell the plug-in separately.

Motion Builder = $1765 (Yearly)
Maya = $1545 (Yearly)
iClone - $199 (One Off Payment)

So even with the cost of the Unreal Live Link plug-in it is still way cheaper than the two products you mention.

Of course, we could always up the price of iClone to say $1000 and include the Live Link plug-in for FREE but why make customers pay for something they might never use.


                                                                

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davev
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Peter (RL) (9/16/2019)
davev (9/16/2019)
OK, I look at it like this: On one hand I have MotionBuilder, a high level professional character animation program and I can get a FREE unreal live link plugin that will do everything the "Reallusion LiveLink" will do between MB and and Unreal. Same For Maya, a FREE unreal Livelink plugin. Reallusion, a program that Yes, I own, but would never say it has anywhere near the tools available in MotionBuilder, wants me to buy a $700 Plugin that will do what the "Free" plugins from MotionBuilder and Maya will do? Personally I think if they made the plugin free or at least affordable for a hobbyist, they would likely sell alot more copies of Iclone and CC3 in order for people to use the plugin - But, NOT MY call.........


Thanks for the feedback but just look at the cost of the software involved to find out why we sell the plug-in separately.

Motion Builder = $1765 (Yearly)
Maya = $1545 (Yearly)
iClone - $199 (One Off Payment)

So even with the cost of the Unreal Live Link plug-in it is still way cheaper than the two products you mention.

Of course, we could always up the price of iClone to say $1000 and include the Live Link plug-in for FREE but why make customers pay for something they might never use.


Nice try for a general justification - except both my ( and likely many others ) subscriptions to Maya and MotionBuilder cost me nothing - I have a "Startup" license subscription, which means as long as i earn less than 100K from the business generated using the software, my subscription cost is ZERO. These license are not that difficult to get and maintain. Does IClone have a free student/Indie/Startup Program?
The other part of this equation that makes no sense: OK, Iclone cost $199.00, but you are charging $700.00 for that $199.00 program to plugin to another program that is 100% FREE'
THAT makes no sense ( at least to me, and I think alot of others as well )
For interested individuals:  ( Note it says will end in 1 year but I have had mine for 3 years and renew it yearly. )

Startup

To qualify as a "Startup," You must be (a) a company, a startup or home-based business, that generates less than $100,000 (or equivalent in other currency) per year from the total sale of goods or services or (b) an individual using the service for personal non-commercial projects, hobbies or personal learning.The term of Your Startup subscription will start on the date access is granted and will end one (1) year thereafter. Autodesk reserves the right at any time during the Startup subscription term to revoke Your right to access the Offering by providing notice to You. 


Edited
3 Months Ago by davev
aeolian
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the free ccsetup plugin is all you need
it converts very fast, multiple avatars-multiple props and cameras
i dont really see any benefit to having a live setup with iclone



.

Edited
3 Months Ago by aeolian
Peter (RL)
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davev (9/16/2019)


Nice try for a general justification - except both my ( and likely many others ) subscriptions to Maya and MotionBuilder cost me nothing - I have a "Startup" license subscription, which means as long as i earn less than 100K from the business generated using the software, my subscription cost is ZERO. These license are not that difficult to get and maintain. Does IClone have a free student/Indie/Startup Program?
The other part of this equation that makes no sense: OK, Iclone cost $199.00, but you are charging $700.00 for that $199.00 program to plugin to another program that is 100% FREE'
THAT makes no sense ( at least to me, and I think alot of others as well )
For interested individuals:  ( Note it says will end in 1 year but I have had mine for 3 years and renew it yearly. )

Startup

To qualify as a "Startup," You must be (a) a company, a startup or home-based business, that generates less than $100,000 (or equivalent in other currency) per year from the total sale of goods or services or (b) an individual using the service for personal non-commercial projects, hobbies or personal learning.The term of Your Startup subscription will start on the date access is granted and will end one (1) year thereafter. Autodesk reserves the right at any time during the Startup subscription term to revoke Your right to access the Offering by providing notice to You. 




The Startup offer is intended to be for one year so eventually you will need to pay or stop using the software. Just because you are temporarily using the software for free doesn't change the fact that both Maya and Motion Builder will cost way more than the cost of iClone + Unreal Live Link.


                                                                

Peter
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charly Rama
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aeolian (9/16/2019)
the free ccsetup plugin is all you need
it converts very fast, multiple avatars-multiple props and cameras
i dont really see any benefit to having a live setup with iclone


Totally agree. I don't see for me (I say for me, may be not for others) a big interest on spending 700$ for live link when CC3 auto set up does everything well . Thanks RL to give us this free alternative

My computer : I7 24Go RAM GTX 1070ti 8Go and GTX 1050Ti4Go
     


vidi
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my  Problem  with the high prices Software by RL it is only reasonable for a few User, that means at the end it will the development canceled again.
It would not be the first time
Demand governs the supply.

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liebe Grüße vidi
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will.cowling.uk
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Thanks for the feedback but just look at the cost of the software involved to find out why we sell the plug-in separately.

Motion Builder = $1765 (Yearly)
Maya = $1545 (Yearly)
iClone - $199 (One Off Payment)

So even with the cost of the Unreal Live Link plug-in it is still way cheaper than the two products you mention.

Of course, we could always up the price of iClone to say $1000 and include the Live Link plug-in for FREE but why make customers pay for something they might never use.

In my view this is a completely delusional perception of your product.  iClone's strength is its simplicity, and I like it for that. As a game programmer it allows me to create great assets for my own personal projects and is even simple enough for me to introduce animation to my 6 year old son, but in my day job I work for a large multinational corporation where we use Maya as it's a solid AAA piece of professional software.  iClone is not in the same league IMHO so comparing their prices is ridiculous.

Unreal Live Link is literally free software.  The source code for it is included in the free Unreal source code releases (e.g. UnrealEngine\Engine\Source\Programs\MayaLiveLinkPlugin, UnrealEngine\Engine\Source\Runtime\LiveLinkInterface, UnrealEngine\Engine\Source\Runtime\LiveLinkMessageBusFramework) and is fully documented by Epic (https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Animation/LiveLinkPlugin/index.html).  

All a developer such as yourselves has to do integrate it into an application like iClone is to just link in the Unreal Live link dlls that Epic provide and then per frame iterate over the joint/bone transforms and pass them to a function, that Epic provides, to send it to Unreal.  Here's that functionality in the Maya plugin...


   virtual void OnStream(double StreamTime, int32 FrameNumber)
   {
      TArray<FTransform> JointTransforms;
      JointTransforms.Reserve(JointsToStream.Num());

      TArray<MMatrix> InverseScales;
      InverseScales.Reserve(JointsToStream.Num());

      for (int32 Idx = 0; Idx < JointsToStream.Num(); ++Idx)
      {
         const FStreamHierarchy& H = JointsToStream[Idx];

         MTransformationMatrix::RotationOrder RotOrder = H.JointObject.rotationOrder();

         MMatrix JointScale = GetScale(H.JointObject);
         InverseScales.Add(JointScale.inverse());

         MMatrix ParentInverseScale = (H.ParentIndex == -1) ? MMatrix::identity : InverseScales[H.ParentIndex];

         MMatrix MayaSpaceJointMatrix = JointScale *
            GetRotationOrientation(H.JointObject, RotOrder) *
            GetRotation(H.JointObject, RotOrder) *
            GetJointOrientation(H.JointObject, RotOrder) *
            ParentInverseScale *
            GetTranslation(H.JointObject);

         JointTransforms.Add(BuildUETransformFromMayaTransform(MayaSpaceJointMatrix));
      }

      TArray<FLiveLinkCurveElement> Curves;

      LiveLinkProvider->UpdateSubjectFrame(SubjectName, JointTransforms, Curves, StreamTime);
   }


I imagine your code is very similar... and you're charging >$1000 per customer for copying that bit of code and changing it a bit?

If you can't see how ridiculous that is then there is no hope for you.

Not only that, but you haven't even created the plugin properly.  The way you've released it, without any source code, means that it will only work with Binary installs of Unreal that are Blueprint only.  It won't work in a UE4 project that builds from the Engine source, or one that includes C++ files in the project.

If this was a $100 add on then these things might be excusable, but at the price you're asking it’s simply not acceptable, to me at least.

Edited
2 Months Ago by will.cowling.uk
Peter (RL)
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will.cowling.uk (10/2/2019)

I imagine your code is very similar... and you're charging >$1000 per customer for copying that bit of code and changing it a bit?

If you can't see how ridiculous that is then there is no hope for you.



With all due respect if you think that bit of code is all that is needed then you are clearly misinformed on the subject. We didn't spend many months developing the Unreal Live Link plugin if all that was needed was to just tweak a bit of simple code. Blink


                                                                

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