Making Faces


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By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
SIGH! Here I am again asking for assistance but at least I don’t repeat requests so I do learn from you guys, and manage to retain what I learn. I’ll seek to break things down in hope I don’t waste anybody’s time as I’m sure you got better things to do than trying decrypt a poorly stated request.

1. I can use Faceshop Pro v.6 to create faces, save as jpg files and apply in iClone. I use the program mainly on public domain pictures and photos of historical figures whose heads are turned slightly aside. Faceshop allows me to create a front facing image of these people when the original image isn’t too grainy or otherwise faulty.

Outcome: In iClone, I have gotten some very, and I mean very good results with some pictures. I have also gotten some utterly useless results but am not sure why. I do know the load image feature doesn’t always let me line up eyes, nose, and face precisely. This means the face I end up with doesn’t look like the original subject even marginally.

2. I discovered Faceshop creates a .fac or .obj file that Photoshop can read and display as what looks like a face texture with put the texture grids. However, I can’t apply that to iClone but believe it is possible, and only my ignorance is the obstacle. I did once save the image as jpg, opened it in iClone’s texture map for faces and it showed up. BUT the grid was off. Meaning some of the grid lines were outside the face area. Of course this probably means I need to learn to texture edit such images.

Outcome: I surrendered after exhibiting complete incompetence with texture editing the image. {will try again later on after reviewing responses here and any online tutorials}   

Note: Faceshop Pro v.6 seems to be auto compatible with Poser. I suspect the texture images are so designed and thus why I can’t get consistent results or texture edit (?) with iClone.

Question: Does anyone have experience with Faceshop Pro v.6 used in collaboration with iClone and can advise me?


Final Note: Peter or other Reallusion person, is there a specific area users can upload freebies? Perhaps for you guys to inspect first to make sure they’re legit and so forth, then make available? I ask because I’ve so often sought forum help and gotten invaluable aid. I want to be able to give something back because without that aid, I’d be stopped dead in my tracks on my projects.
By Paumanok West - 13 Years Ago
JasonWynngard (4/16/2011)
I do know the load image feature doesn’t always let me line up eyes, nose, and face precisely. This means the face I end up with doesn’t look like the original subject even marginally.


At the risk of being glib, garbage in -> garbage out in Face-fitting. Smile

But you deserve a far better answer than that (I hope others will chime in). In order for iClone not to treat a perfectly reasonable face picture as "garbage," I feel it is best to predigest and optimize the image before importing it. I only have 3 tips for you.

1. Once you have obtained a front-on view of the face, choose the best half and apply a mirror transformation so that the face image is perfectly symmetrical.

2. Always skip the face-profile fitting step. If you don't know what you're doing, it will easily destroy your face. I've been making heads in iClone since V1 and I still don't know what I'm doing with the profile view.

3. Some users have reported that you can permanently improve the face shape by using the Facial Puppeteering panel to tweak features. Personally, I've never tried this, but apparently it works.
By Peter (RL) - 13 Years Ago
Hi..

Pau is correct. It really sounds like you may be spending too much time trying to get good results from a poor photo. Personally I would rather spend the time hunting down a good photo to start with rather than spend hours trying to get half decent results from the wrong photo. Sadly it is a fact that you will never get good results if you don't have a good quality image to work with.

iClone4 will give fantastic results without the need for other software just so long as the image is suitable to start with. As a test why not try searching on Google for a high resolution, well lit, front facing photo which shows good facial definition.

Use this to create your head in iClone and I'm sure you will be amazed at the realism that can be achieved if you have the right image. Using poor photos will always give poor results I'm afraid.

And on your point about posting freebies. We have a forum just for that purpose. You can find it by using the link below. Smile

https://forum.reallusion.com/Forum33-1.aspx

By peteradam6 - 13 Years Ago
As Paumanok says, the Facial Puppeteering (Animation/FacialAnimation/ModifyPanel/Facekey) can make subtle face feature adjustments, that might help a face to fit a photo better.

You can also make more dramatic changes, done via the Head modify panel (Head/Faces/ModifyPanel/FacialFeatures/Detail).

Those two built-in options should be enough for most people - but there is also Argile head mesh export/reshape/replace if you need even more control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQgNkm9gasI

I'm thinking you might be able to import the Faceshop Pro .obj into Argile alongside the iClone face, and then use it as a guide to a resculpt of the iClone face?
By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
Paumanok: 1. Once you have obtained a front-on view of the face, choose the best half and apply a mirror transformation so that the face image is perfectly symmetrical.

2. Always skip the face-profile fitting step. If you don't know what you're doing, it will easily destroy your face. I've been making heads in iClone since V1 and I still don't know what I'm doing with the profile view.

3. Some users have reported that you can permanently improve the face shape by using the Facial peppetering.
==============================Response=========================

#1. I do that with Faceshop but I do believe you or someone previously assured me it can be done in iClone. At the time I didn't know how but with this reminder will try thatagain.
#2. Thank you. I noticed that but thought the problem was me despite the fact when I forgot to use the profile, my samples looked better.
#3. I'll experiment with that. Thanks.
By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
Peter: Pau is correct. It really sounds like you may be spending too much time trying to get good results from a poor photo. Personally I would rather spend the time hunting down a good photo to start with rather than spend hours trying to get half decent results from the wrong photo. Sadly it is a fact that you will never get good results if you don't have a good quality image to work with.

============================Response=============================
You're correct. Unfortunately for me, the historical figures I wish (need) to use are mostly B/W photos taken with old style 19th century cameras. Some are surprisingly clear but many are grainy. In at least two cases, iClone did a commendable job, enough for me to apply the faces and the avatar was recognizable by anyone who knows the historical figures. I know iClone can make excellent faces because I used a photo of myself and the outcome was very good.
============================end=============================

Peter: And on your point about posting freebies. We have a forum just for that purpose. You can find it by using the link below. [Smile]
https://forum.reallusion.com/Forum33-1.aspx
=============================Response======================

Will do. I hope to upload a few items I made exclusively with iClone either today or tomorrow.
I will appreciate the privilege of giving something back for all the help I've gotten.
By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
Tutor: I'm thinking you might be able to import the Faceshop Pro .obj into Argile alongside the iClone face, and then use it as a guide to a resculpt of the iClone face?

==========================Response=====================

I'll look at Argle (Quidam 3.5?) to see if I should buy it. I'm leery of spending more money of software that may not fit my needs. My work is highly specific to media relevant to sign language and Deaf History.
By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
Tutor, your advice on UV's, I've printed to practice with as I have with some past advice I've received and used. I suspect in another thread you mentioned this before. This is the first time, I think that I have seen practically a step by step method for doing this. THANKS.
By stinkyu111 - 13 Years Ago
JasonWynngard (4/17/2011)
Tutor: I'm thinking you might be able to import the Faceshop Pro .obj into Argile alongside the iClone face, and then use it as a guide to a resculpt of the iClone face?

==========================Response=====================

I'll look at Argle (Quidam 3.5?) to see if I should buy it. I'm leery of spending more money of software that may not fit my needs. My work is highly specific to media relevant to sign language and Deaf History.

i was just looking in to Argle and it seems that N-sided is no more. Sad

oh well

steve

By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
stinkyu111 (4/17/2011)
JasonWynngard (4/17/2011)
Tutor: I'm thinking you might be able to import the Faceshop Pro .obj into Argile alongside the iClone face, and then use it as a guide to a resculpt of the iClone face?

==========================Response=====================

I'll look at Argle (Quidam 3.5?) to see if I should buy it. I'm leery of spending more money of software that may not fit my needs. My work is highly specific to media relevant to sign language and Deaf History.


i was just looking in to Argle and it seems that N-sided is no more. Sad

oh well

steve



Oh, they're still around, took a little effort to locate but they're still here. http://www.n-sided.com/index.php

I probably won't be buying the software until and unless Reallusion directly endorses it. And only then if it has clearly stated compatibility with iClone. Respectfully and no offense but I've been through some events of purchasing stuff that basically wasted my money and time so am a bit jaded now. Argle (N-Sided) makes me take a big step back because:

1. Nowhere on their site do they state the price of their software. Like with gas stations that don't post their prices I learned if the price isn't stated, it's overpriced.
2. You can download demo versions of Argle and Quidam but I decline because of #1 and experience where under similar circumstances I installed stuff that didn't know how to leave when I wanted to uninstall it. OR "uninstalled" but messed up my registry or directories etc.
3. I've had experiences where downloaded software in similar circumstances require you buy something else in order to work, and something else after that for whatever you bought to work. Reallusion does this with iClone stuff. Well, yes with certain content BUT you scroll down and they tell you up front what cloth, texture or whatever you need for the item to work and what it costs. They tell you up front before you buy it instead of sneaking a Goa'uld in your wallet.

I apologize for being pessimistic about Argle but I just don't like how they're setup for selling the product. Some ugly experiences have have made me skeptical while giving me a serious appreciation for iClone.
By JasonWynngard - 13 Years Ago
Looking into the Photoshop plug-in today. Thanks for all the tips.
By animagic - 13 Years Ago
JasonWynngard (4/16/2011)
Question: Does anyone have experience with Faceshop Pro v.6 used in collaboration with iClone and can advise me?

This is how I have used FaceShop in conjunction with iClone (and 3DXchange). I make use of the fact that you can import an obj file of a head in FaceShop.

I start out with an iClone character to which I want to apply a face created using FaceShop.

  1. Load the character into 3DXchange.
  2. In the tree on the left, select Face.
  3. Click Export Mesh, which will save the head as an .obj file.
  4. In FaceShop, load this .obj file as a custom mesh.
  5. Apply a photo in FaceShop as usual. I found this to be tricky, especially the lining up.
  6. Save the modelled head as an .obj file.  This obj file has the same vertex count as the original; FaceShop only changes the shape. Also, the all-important neck area isn't touched, so the revised head will fit the body.
  7. In 3DXchange, click Replace Mesh, and load the modelled head.
  8. The head texture map will not change automatically, so double-click the Diffuse icon and load the texture that FaceShop has created.
  9. Reimport the character with the new head in iClone.

There are a couple of things that didn't work for me. One was creating a texture map larger that 1024x1024, even if I selected 2048x2048 or 4096x4096. I have an earlier version of FaceShop that does create a larger texture.

The other problem I had was lining up the imported head. FaceShop always insists on tilting and turning it, which results in a deformed mesh. I had to use Agile to fix that.

Although this pipeline is possible, the question is of course if it is worth the trouble. Hopefully iClone 5 will have improved face-mapping capabilities.

By col757 - 11 Years Ago
animagic (4/17/2011)
JasonWynngard (4/16/2011)
Question: Does anyone have experience with Faceshop Pro v.6 used in collaboration with iClone and can advise me?


This is how I have used FaceShop in conjunction with iClone (and 3DXchange). I make use of the fact that you can import an obj file of a head in FaceShop.

I start out with an iClone character to which I want to apply a face created using FaceShop.
  1. Loadthe character into 3DXchange.
  2. In the tree on the left, select Face.
  3. Click Export Mesh, which will save the head as an .obj file.
  4. In FaceShop, load this .obj file as a custom mesh.
  5. Apply a photo in FaceShop as usual. I found this to be tricky, especially the lining up.
  6. Save the modelled head as an .obj file. This obj file has the same vertex count as the original; FaceShop only changes the shape. Also, the all-important neck area isn't touched, so the revised head will fit the body.
  7. In 3DXchange, click Replace Mesh, and load the modelled head.
  8. The head texture map will not change automatically, so double-click the Diffuse icon and load the texture that FaceShop has created.
  9. Reimport the character with the new head in iClone.


Thereare a couple of things thatdidn't work for me. One was creating a texture map larger that 1024x1024, even if I selected 2048x2048 or 4096x4096. I have an earlier version of FaceShop that does create a larger texture.

The other problem I had was lining up the imported head. FaceShop always insists on tilting and turning it, which results in a deformed mesh. I had to use Agile to fix that.

Although this pipeline is possible, the question is of course if it is worth the trouble. Hopefully iClone 5 will have improved face-mapping capabilities.


Click Export Mesh, which will save the head as an .obj file.Ermm

thats about as far as i got, there was no such option
By animagic - 11 Years Ago
In the scene tree on the left, do you see an element called Face or RL_Face? And what is the color of the scene tree?

Actually, when I wrote the instructions they were for iClone and 3DXchange 4 and FaceShop 6. It doesn't seem to work anymore for the current release of iClone and/or FaceShop. The head is created, but ends up at the wrong position.

EDIT: It works with  FaceShop 6 and iClone/3DXchange 5.

By colour - 11 Years Ago
(_!_)ing-in Wink

"Making Faces" ?

Sorry - I couldn't resist BigGrin

(_!_)ing-out Wink
By animagic - 11 Years Ago
It positively shows that an avatar's mouth does open...BigGrin
By colour - 11 Years Ago
"animagic (12/27/2013)
It positively shows that an avatar's mouth does open...BigGrin"

The Animation was quite funny, Job & done very quickly, by "Layering " several Puppet Recordings (Eyes, Mouth & Jaw), Keyframing Tongue Move-out & Edit Motion Layer of Arms, Hands & fingers, jnto one Animation Clip.