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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Think im gonna go for ipisoft, im liking the fact you can use 1 computer with x2 kinect 2s. It has export skeleton for iclone. The only drawback is price.
Just wondering has anyone used both. Any major drawbacks i should know about?
Thanks in advance :D
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By animagic - 3 Years Ago
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Mike Kelley has tried out ipisoft years ago and his conclusion was that nothing beats a mocap suit such as Perception Neuron.
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Ah man. Im down to selling scraps of my defunked printing business on ebay and no one is biting.
Think after forking out over 2k in 12 months on reallusion im a bit stuck. (I only had ic7+cc3 for 11 months when the upgrade kicked in).
I got x2 kinects x 2 adapters x 2 usb cards and a subscription for around 600.
Them suits are about 2k.
Ive been watching loads of vids on this mocap. Im sure a hell of a lot of work is in post. Seen a funny vid where sum vlogger on youtube is ranting cos he spent 4k and his results are really poor.
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By charly Rama - 3 Years Ago
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Yeah, I was about spending $$$ for suit but with the way to fix footsliding (major issue for AI mocap like threeD tracker and ipisoft ) coming with iclone 8 I'll definitely keep my money. If you can, buy it but today, for me, possibilities are more than last year
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By animagic - 3 Years Ago
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I understand money concerns.
I've played a bit with the rotoscoping option in iClone (animating from video) and the motion correction such as for foot-sliding as Charly mentions, is indeed pretty good.
And since you already have some of the equipment you could try the demo and see how it goes.
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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Honestly I would not bother with either ipisoft or brekel (and I had ipisoft for years - it's just WAY too much post work).
If money is an issue to the point where you can't afford a mocap suit, then I would look into those services where you upload your video (just a video of yourself) and it turns it into mocap. There is a cost there as well, and the better ones won't allow you to do too much without spending $$$, but for a small cost you can do SOME mocap and it will be far better until you can actually afford your own mocap suit.
Then again, some folks just have to learn the hard way - the thing about mocap is that it's SO seductive in looking at samples folks have slaved over. In reality, until you get a mocap suit, you need a TON of time and patience. And in that case, if you have those, nothing beats hand animation.
It's like the age old story of us programmers. We used to come to clients and write "Good, fast, cheap" on the blackboard and tell them - "Pick any two". The same is true with motion capture. You can get it good and fast, but it won't be cheap. Or you can get it cheap and good, but it will take FOREVER. Or you can get it fast and cheap, but it will be shit. Again - pick any two.
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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Wait - wasn't there a guy here who was selling his PN suit?
You might email him and ask. The cost might be in your budget (and you can always haggle with him).
You will thank me later (or you will just learn the hard way. As I said, some folks just need to go through it for themselves. Nothing wrong with that if you are young, as time is the thing you have the most).
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Had a play with rotoscope. Is a bit frustrating. Reallusion could make it a goldmine by introducing Opacity, especially on the wireframe. The 3d model over the video always gets in the way.
I was wondering if they could remove (visually) the main joints of the 3d character. You could easily align the joints in the video behind.
When filming your video you could even set up color markers on your elbow, shoulder, wrists, knees and ankles and then align them up with the opacity removed from the model/wireframe.
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By animagic - 3 Years Ago
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armondtanz (6/25/2022)
Had a play with rotoscope. Is a bit frustrating. Reallusion could make it a goldmine by introducing Opacity, especially on the wireframe. The 3d model over the video always gets in the way.
I was wondering if they could remove (visually) the main joints of the 3d character. You could easily align the joints in the video behind.
When filming your video you could even set up color markers on your elbow, shoulder, wrists, knees and ankles and then align them up with the opacity removed from the model/wireframe.
What I've been doing is a hybrid: Use one of the AI online services that create a mocap from a video and then use the rotoscoping feature for refinement and cleaning up. It is work of course, but it's doable and save a lot of money.
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Do u not think the 3d model is just in the way of the video?. I find it quite frustrating. I found a hack by freedom which lets you turn down the opacity of 3d model. But this creates a bit of a mess because it makes a ghost like opacity on clothes, hair, skin....
The wireframe feature is useful , if u could drop the opacity on that and change the color i think it could be much easier to use.
Think i may place it in the 'ideas' section.
I just cancelled deepmotion because the end result was so shakey and nothing like my vids. I then had a go at rotoscope and realised just how bad i am at animation (looks like old stop animation)... so sought out a new solution.
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Love these old skool blackboard quotes... Ha! i'll remember that 1 ;)
I dont mind post production, i wouldnt mind doing standard animation, but ive tried and i just havent got the brain for it, think im a scruffy, throw everything in type artist, ....
Seen quite a few artist on youtube who have created some really good results, results id happily take right now.... Did u have a 2 camera setup?, that sounds like a must to get a more accurate take.
I always remember an old art lecturer in Liverpool UK saying - when placing letter fonts next to each other, never look at the distance, more look at the space between them as a volume of water. From then on getting the fonts to sit correctly was a doddle!
His claim to fame was he taught John Lennon at Art College and the lecturers catchphrase was to scream at us students 'Aye Up, Get yer Wellies on' (UK translation - wellington Boots are like the rubber ones seen on farmers). The Bizzare thing is John Lennon on the white Album Screamed 'AYE UP' in a yorkshire accent, Its a common Yorkshire saying, but i dunno , it always reminded me of the lecturer who actually was from Yorkshire!!!
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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I actually had the THREE camera ipisoft setup (I started with one, then went to two, and finally three). It was still incredibly frustrating. What they don't show is as long as you keep your arms in front of you and away from the body you can get decent results, but anytime the arms come close to the body (or, heaven forbid, you turn around) it loses connection and then you have HOURS of cleanup.
I've tried MANY different mocap solutions (at least four others not even mentioned here) and nothing came close to having a PN suit. My PN3 makes mocap as simple as can be - absolutely zero cleanup and perfect capture every time. But -- $$$. So, yes, you have to pick those two out of three. I think if I were younger and doing this all again I'd stay away from mocap and just use the resources provided (which, to be fair, are pretty damn good - Motion Director is a great solution for nearly all walking/running problems). There are a ton of motions available for free, and lots more you can buy, and just get good then at modifying and combining them. Until you can afford to get a good mocap suit (if you are young there is NOTHING you can't save up for - it only takes time. Something us old folks just don't have anymore. Indeed, it's one reason I'm going to buy still another PN3 suit, so I can do two avatar capture at the same time).
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Im 50 :(...
My mind feels alive but my body is letting me down...
Been sat on a computer for long hours for far too long.
Well its good to hav a route. Ive tried everything. So my next big purchase is mocap.
Ha. Im sure i said that after ic7, then my 3090, then ic8.
I'll post some results in the next few weeks...
Thanks for all the advice :D.
Ps. I think if u use mocap packs (i have reallusion army mocap pack). The problem is subtle with ideas. I was wanting some soldiers to experience pain going thru a portal. Tried mocap packs and if u mix 2 differnt packs all the limbs move slightly. Each skeleton pack must be like a fingerprint, unique in everyway. Looks terrible, u can see them morph from 1 body shape to another.
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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You're a kid. Literally. If I was 50 again I'd rule the world (or, to put it another way, I'm old enough to be your father).
iClone 8 has better tools to blend motions. You should get good at using them. There are all kinds of new approaches now to copy parts of motions to other parts (and mask out other parts of the body). That should stand you in good stead until you can save up for a suit. Even if you took five years to do so (which you can save for almost anything) you'd be younger than I was when I started iClone. Hell - if you took TEN years you'd still end up younger. So - no worries.
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By Jfrog - 3 Years Ago
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For me the perception neuron never really worked. I read all the doc about it , searched the forum and tried everything with only really modest results. Even after clean up. I decided to give it another try last week (after a two years brake) but it even worst. Now I can only record the upper body, left or right arm mode, because the full body mode is not selectable even if a can see all my sensors are working. I bought two 32 suits but this was the worst investment I ever made. I lost too much time with this.
But many like Kellytoons , which has a lot of experience in the field, were really happy with it so please don't base your decision on my experience. I only think it is good to have as much feedback as you can. :)
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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The original suit had/has issues. The PN3 does not. No one I know has any problems with it, even on the forums.
The issues with the original suit nearly all boil down to magnetic problems. Either the capture space is magnetized, or you did not (individually - sigh) demagnetize your sensors, or you didn't calibrate properly, etc. etc. For folks still struggling I would first advise recalibrating each sensor (to do it right will take a couple of hours) and check your space to make sure it's within 45-55 ohms (no more and no less). A proper suit and area should not drift no matter what (so the suit laying there should be stock still).
But... they addressed all that and MUCH more with the PN3. It truly is a marvel and the difference between the two suits is night and day. You demagnetize all the sensors at once, the calibration is completely changed (and much easier), the suit doesn't require recalibration even when you move to a new area (it has a new function which adjusts it) and the capture is rock steady and perfect (in no need of post processing). There are no wires in between each section (so you have bands on the arms and legs but no wires in between them, making it MUCH easier to fit on). It's also dead solid easy to have more than one suit in the same space (which is why I'm buying another). If your only experience with a mocap suit is with the PN1-2 then you don't know what a mocap suit is.
And - as I said earlier, you pay for that superb experience. There's a reason professional studios are using the PN3.
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By mtakerkart - 3 Years Ago
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I bought a suit at the time of their $700 quickstarter project. (Neuron) Lots of issues that have been a bit resolved. I bought another one 2 years later and it takes a lot of data cleaning. I also bought a rokoko during their kicstarter too and I never had a usable result, in addition it is a nightmare to adjust the wifi connection. I have never been able to commercially exploit my investment because of the "amateur" quality of the result. Today I would never spend $3400 (PNV3) for this technology for a hobby. I am too poor. My max I can spend is 1000$. I think we will need a little patience because Google, Meta, Nvidia, etc... are working hard to offer us in the near future free solutions for their next metaverse.
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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mtakerkart (6/26/2022)
I bought a suit at the time of their $700 quickstarter project. (Neuron) Lots of issues that have been a bit resolved. I bought another one 2 years later and it takes a lot of data cleaning. I also bought a rokoko during their kicstarter too and I never had a usable result, in addition it is a nightmare to adjust the wifi connection. I have never been able to commercially exploit my investment because of the "amateur" quality of the result. Today I would never spend $3400 (PNV3) for this technology for a hobby. I am too poor. My max I can spend is 1000$. I think we will need a little patience because Google, Meta, Nvidia, etc... are working hard to offer us in the near future free solutions for their next metaverse.
That last paragraph sounds awesome. Please remember this post and keep us updated on metaverse and google AI solutions.
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By armondtanz - 3 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (6/26/2022)
The original suit had/has issues. The PN3 does not. No one I know has any problems with it, even on the forums.
The issues with the original suit nearly all boil down to magnetic problems. Either the capture space is magnetized, or you did not (individually - sigh) demagnetize your sensors, or you didn't calibrate properly, etc. etc. For folks still struggling I would first advise recalibrating each sensor (to do it right will take a couple of hours) and check your space to make sure it's within 45-55 ohms (no more and no less). A proper suit and area should not drift no matter what (so the suit laying there should be stock still).
But... they addressed all that and MUCH more with the PN3. It truly is a marvel and the difference between the two suits is night and day. You demagnetize all the sensors at once, the calibration is completely changed (and much easier), the suit doesn't require recalibration even when you move to a new area (it has a new function which adjusts it) and the capture is rock steady and perfect (in no need of post processing). There are no wires in between each section (so you have bands on the arms and legs but no wires in between them, making it MUCH easier to fit on). It's also dead solid easy to have more than one suit in the same space (which is why I'm buying another). If your only experience with a mocap suit is with the PN1-2 then you don't know what a mocap suit is.
And - as I said earlier, you pay for that superb experience. There's a reason professional studios are using the PN3.
Hey Mike. If u dont mind me asking... how much for the ideal solution,. This ver 3 with software. Just as a guide for future ref. Thanks
Without knowing the tech i cant gauge how much and what i need.
Thanks for all the input and advice ;)
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By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
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The suit currently is around $3500 - if you want the gloves (which I also have) they are $1K more.
That's all you really need - you get the free Neuron Studio software which captures/creates the FBX file and can be dragged/dropped into iClone 8 (or imported through 3DX). I also have Motion Live (which I *think* comes with iClone 8 now, but don't quote me) and the PN plugin, which I have no idea how much it currently costs (but you can easily look both of those things up here). That allows direct capture to iClone. For the longest time (when I had the early PN suits) I never captured directly because I didn't like the look of the capture directly into iClone - it required cleanup which I didn't want to do. Either the plugin or iClone or the suit or the PN software has now changed so there is no cleanup needed, so now I do my captures through Live. It's a double-edged sword because although it eliminates a couple of steps (having to export the FBX file and then import it again) doing it directly in iClone means you first have to setup a project long enough for your entire capture session (and then also requires you run iClone concurrently with the Studio software which is a bit of a PITA). But I do like it that way as I can also watch my avatar interact with any environment I have.
I had tried the Rokoko suit as well and it never worked for me (which is why I returned it). The PN3 really is the way for a hobbyist to go (assuming you want to do mocap - not everyone wants or needs to do it). And as for waiting for other solutions - I've heard that now for a decade, that the next new thing is "just around the corner". I'll bet you a dollar it doesn't come in my lifetime. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch and the best non-mocap solutions I've seen will cost $$$ the same way that a suit does.
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