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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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In order to do these, I needed to load the studio drivers for rendering and CGI for the RTX. Then I went directly into the IRAY render panels. This is the same Drea and the same dress. Only now, she is truly photorealistic (or at least damn close). As a further test, I wanted to see if I could make tears look right. I could go on for some time discussing how these were done, and I will gladly share anything I've figured out if anyone wants to get technical.
Even so, there is still a lot I need to practice with ray tracing, but I love these shots to bits. These were my first goes with IRAY on the new machine. The difference is stunning.
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By General Picture Animation - 3 Years Ago
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Modeling, texturing, and rendering are exceptional.
Nice to see some attitude, too.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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General Picture Animation (5/31/2022)
Modeling, texturing, and rendering are exceptional.
Nice to see some attitude, too.
Thank you so much. It's been a journey for me. I have a definite goal in mind and a number of skillsets I have a list to improve. Pretty much all of my shots are about improving one skill set or another. They are starting to come together. I post here for constructive feedback. Then I go and work some more. I've drawn painted and sculpted for almost my whole life. I've done photography and one of my physics specialties is optics. Yet, nothing replaces sitting and working methodically. CGI has so many elements to it to master. So I just keep at it.
That's a long way of saying that constructive feedback is very useful to me and very appreciated.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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Here's one more... I also added it above.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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well done, your best render yet - lots of character in that one. :cool:
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
well done, your best render yet - lots of character in that one. :cool:
Thanks mate. That really is some of the best I've done. I just keep working at it. With the new machine, card, drivers, fully available IRAY etc... I unlocked a lot more to master, but struggling as hard as I could to get every last drip out of the old machine gave me some good habits.. One thing that makes me happy is that I did a good enough job on the assets, clothing and such, that they hold up.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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And here is another
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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now you messed it up again, when you made a close up of the jacket, it obviously doesn't look like a real texture. it's not cotton, its not leather, it's just distracting, and now she looks like she's wearing waaaaay too much makeup - like if she smiled her face would crack - in real life I would start to see more details and shine as they got closer, it didn't matter as much when you had the character further away because psychologically the shadows cover such blemishes..it's a known fact that most people are uglier when they are closer because now you see all the sweaty detail. :crazy:
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
now you messed it up again, when you made a close up of the jacket, it obviously doesn't look like a real texture. it's not cotton, its not leather, it's just distracting, and now she looks like she's wearing waaaaay too much makeup - like if she smiled her face would crack - in real life I would start to see more details and shine as they got closer, it didn't matter as much when you had the character further away because psychologically the shadows cover such blemishes..it's a known fact that most people are uglier when they are closer because now you see all the sweaty detail. :crazy:
Maybe... I assure you she has lots of pores and subtle lines and the jacket has textures.. I think the details you are talking about are getting washed out by the bright light. It's a well known fact that bright lighting washes out details. It's something to do with angular resolution and saturation...
Hmmm... You've messed it up again... A few poor physics students are going to have to calculate the effect now. If you vex me further, I will force them to write a simulation... Their suffering (or not) is in your hands Rick.
Here's a few day old render of her so you see what I mean.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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you got some of the shine right - but her jacket, what's up with that ? only thing i can think of that looks like that texture is a scuba diving wetsuit. Those little details tell a story, and if it's not part of your story it's just a distraction. in your longer distance shot, even the sky and the light told a story - it looked like a very hot day and she was not a person to have her authority questioned.
and those gold leaves - whats up with that ? is that a silk screen on a rubber suit ? or should it be embroidery on a heavy cotton jacket ? yes, those details matter especially if you plan to be up close and personal.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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Here's a brightly lit one where she is close enough and turned to be a bit more in shadow. You can see more skin features here. But really... saturation and angular resolution.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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her lips have no wrinkles, looks like she took botox and it's swollen - you have the clear lighting right - but your message needs a lot of work. The closer you make your shot, the more those details matter. The further back you make your shot, the more the environment matters.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
you got some of the shine right - but her jacket, what's up with that ? only thing i can think of that looks like that texture is a scuba diving wetsuit. Those little details tell a story, and if it's not part of your story it's just a distraction. in your longer distance shot, even the sky and the light told a story - it looked like a very hot day and she was not a person to have her authority questioned.
and those gold leaves - whats up with that ? is that a silk screen on a rubber suit ? or should it be embroidery on a heavy cotton jacket ? yes, those details matter especially if you plan to be up close and personal.
Well given that she is a grand countess and a fleet admiral, questioning her authority is counter- indicated for most. So I am glad I pulled that off. As to the leaves... I LIKE THEM. The idea is a gold overlay over a very fine silk.
If you think it looks rubbery, instead of fine silky, OK. That's your opinion. We'll see what others think as well.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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with all your physics knowledge, you are going to tell me that silk is as stiff as leather ? Seriously ? no short cuts! I'm the audience I'm right!
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
her lips have no wrinkles, looks like she took botox and it's swollen - you have the clear lighting right - but your message needs a lot of work. The closer you make your shot, the more those details matter. The further back you make your shot, the more the environment matters.
Rick, you are a friend, so when I tell you I disagree, I hope you don't take offense. Her lips have wrinkles and they always have. There is such a thing as the nature of bright lights, which for some reason, you seem to not be considering.
A better critique would be that this lighting scheme is not good for seeing fine details in closeups - which I will agree with. It's why studio lights for models is what it is. Please spare me the message language. It's not necessary.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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that's how people see things, you have to make it clear that it's not the case. Your ideas are never wrong, but as a consumer you have to make these points clear to me. Just because i'm having fun with my explanations doesn't mean i'm not serious about what i'm pointing out. you ever see how gamers describe things ? who do you think your art and scifi genre will appeal to most ? there is a method to my madness, either you trust me or you dont.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
with all your physics knowledge, you are going to tell me that silk is as stiff as leather ? Seriously ? no short cuts! I'm the audience I'm right!
Constructive criticism is always welcome. On the other hand, I'm the artist. It's my work, and my prerogative to disagree. You can't bat 1000 with everyone all the time. I think it looks like shiny silk. It would be wrong to think I don't hear you. I simply disagree.
And we are friends and I do trust you.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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frienemies - because while i have your best interest at heart, you are not going to like everything i have to say or the way I say it if I really aim to help you become a better artist. this is why i gave the lecture on separating technique from creation. :alien: ( which btw, i notice you trying on that point as well ) the criticism in art never ends!
when you say photorealism - you are aiming for a benchmark based on skill and detail. stop saying photorealism and i'll stop bringing up the benchmark.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
frienemies - because while i have your best interest at heart, you are not going to like everything i have to say or the way I say it if I really aim to help you become a better artist. this is why i gave the lecture on separating technique from creation. :alien: ( which btw, i notice you trying on that point as well ) the criticism in art never ends!
when you say photorealism - you are aiming for a benchmark based on skill and detail. stop saying photorealism and i'll stop bringing up the benchmark.
OK... So let's get real about photorealism. The word means an image like a photograph. Cameras and lenses are real world things and the whole point of all the raytracing is to emulate them. In real life, the details you are going on about would be washed out by the brightness as they were in these renders. Hence, it is photo real. What you want me to do would be to put some a-physical bump map on her coat. You can already see where the metal has inlaid into the silk... yes I put that detail in. I could make it a coarse silk jacket, but I don't want to.
Sorry, but real silk cloth with a very fine weave - the high end super expensive stuff, shot with a real camera, won't do what you want it to in these light conditions.
Take a look for yourself. You can only see the weave at all (barely) because of the extreme closeup when you enlarge this photo of actual silk.. Otherwise, it is washed out by the bright lights and will continue to be unless you are close enough to kiss her.
Please stop ignoring physics.
This is not worth this much consternation.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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Reference photos.
this, as a consumer, is what I expect a silk jacket to look like - this jacket actually matches the style of jacket you are verbally describing to me, designs and all.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
Reference photos.
this, as a consumer, is what I expect a silk jacket to look like - this jacket actually matches the style of jacket you are verbally describing to me, designs and all.
Dude give it up... Look above. REFERENCE PHOTO with actual definitions. Look below too please. Then, please stop. This is ridiculous and I am now sick of it.
Here is another silk dress of the really high end stuff. What you expect is not what I expect.
I heard you the first five times. You are wrong. I am allowed to disagree with you. Please stop now.
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By AutoDidact - 3 Years Ago
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now you messed it up again, when you made a close up of the jacket, it obviously doesn't look like a real texture. Not really “messed up” but when one moves to a true physicaly based lighting model such as Iray then be prepared to remake all of your materials for what Irays expects.
Daz studio has a global shader called Iray uber that converts your texture to a PBR model specifically for the Iray engine.
Also, as rule of thumb NEVER use a Pure white value in any texture even those that are meant to be “white” any details will likely be “blown out” as the engine expects some color value to interpret. I did a quick render, in Iray, of one of my older outfits that I created for my marvel based movie a few years ago .
ALL of the “white” , except the upper chest and collar have about a 35% grey mixture and you see the bunching at the knees & elbow that would likely be lost
,even on on this slightly overcast day ,if everything was pure white.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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agreed, i wrestle with whites all the time, then add to that the subtle hues - like some are gray - but then some can be a blue'ish hue to suggest something synthetic or a brownish hue to suggest it's cotton - the amount of detail that can go into the simplest thing when going for that photo realistic look is insane. That's why I don't bother, I do it for practice and learning new skill sets but my photorealism is based more on psychology than actually making it physically look real lol. - stuff like camera shakes, shadows, distance, brighter contrast, less saturated all things that fake the funk!
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
I do it for practice and learning new skill sets but my photorealism is based more on psychology than actually making it physically look real lol.
Seriously? Photorealism is physics, not psychology.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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am i allowed to agree to disagree ?
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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harris.josephd (5/31/2022)
planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
I do it for practice and learning new skill sets but my photorealism is based more on psychology than actually making it physically look real lol.Seriously? Photorealism is physics, not psychology.
You are always allowed to be wrong. I can't stop you. :)
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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Thank you, I appreciate that. :D
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
Thank you, I appreciate that. :D
That's a good render and good character design. If it's yours, compliments.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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so why does my blurry black and white version look more realistic than my color version ?
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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thank you, and I'm really trying to share some things i learned along the way with you, psychology does play a part in realism. The human mind naturally fills in the blanks, if you make the un-natural too obvious, then the brain defaults to disbelief.
The Brain Adapts in a Blink to Compensate for Missing Information https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-adapts-in-a-blink/
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
so why does my blurry black and white version look more realistic than my color version ?
Because it realistically looks like a blurry photo. We all have experience with bad photography. So yes, in a cog sci-way, your brain associates it with previous experience. That does not equal photorealism in any way beyond mimicking an old and slightly out of focus photo.
Don't go there with uncanny valley stuff with me please. If your color one were more true to the physics of lenses and light waves, it would look like a real color photo and be (color) photorealistic.
Tricking the brain to make something seem real is not the same thing as creating something true to reality, unless your goal was a blurry black and white.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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my goal as an artist is to make you think and feel. I want your imagination involved. I'm not a statue, I'm an idea. A song without moments of silence is noise.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
my goal as an artist is to make you think and feel. I want your imagination involved. I'm not a statue, I'm an idea. A song without moments of silence is noise.
Poetic... refraining from joking because I know you are serious. Just please be careful with language that might imply other artists don't share that goal.
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By planetstardragon - 3 Years Ago
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to define tao is to defile it - I repeat, not all art is the same, art is a form of expression - some express it in a concept, others express it in technique.
Contrary to popular belief, kung fu is not a martial art, cooking is it's own form of kung fu, calligraphy is its own form of kung fu, philosophy is it's own form of kung fu.
why am I explaining this ? Because when I critique your technique, you defend your concept, when I compliment your concept you credit your technique. - sorry, won't fly with me. 50 laps!
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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planetstardragon (5/31/2022)
to define tao is to defile it - I repeat, not all art is the same, art is a form of expression - some express it in a concept, others express it in technique.
Contrary to popular belief, kung fu is not a martial art, cooking is it's own form of kung fu, calligraphy is its own form of kung fu, philosophy is it's own form of kung fu.
why am I explaining this ? Because when I critique your technique, you defend your concept, when I compliment your concept you credit your technique. - sorry, won't fly with me. 50 laps!
Shakes head. Kung fu literally means great skill. Is there an off button that can be pushed when you start laying it on so thick?
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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These are really good.
Especially in the future, I will have to do studies on tears.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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yepkoo (5/31/2022)
These are really good.
Especially in the future, I will have to do studies on tears.
It's all in the reflective maps. And thank you so much.
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By JCL1 - 3 Years Ago
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You're getting closer with each iteration I think.
My "tells" for portrait CGI still hold true in my eyes:
1) the neckline of clothing models in general need far more realism. I always wind up going to photoshop to post process it. Here I can still see the edges are still too crisp and perfect, and I can still see the vertices on it, especially as it plunges down.
2) the necklace prop/clothing totally let's you down. The pendant looks like it should have significant weight, yet the chain looks like it floats above the skin at times with it's shadowing. And I think the chain should be more taut, but unfortunately, it seems to try to traverse the contours above her collarbone in an unnatural manner. In my eyes, it looks like it's totally breaking the laws of gravity and it is very distracting.
3) The hair is still too perfect. Strands in the main mass of hair are still too uniform to my eye. They don't feel like they come off the scalp naturally. For instance, the part line in her style, the hair seems to grow off the scalp too horizontal. Again, it's another thing I photoshop by making those hairs darker and come off vertically there. And then I add far more wayward strands of hair in various shades in random places.
Thank you for posting, it really helps one train the eye to look for things and see what others are saying.
I'd also highly encourage taking a model photograph, and trying to replicate it in iClone/CC, and it immediately points out the stark contrasts in tool vs real world.
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By harris.josephd - 3 Years Ago
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JCL1 (5/31/2022)
You're getting closer with each iteration I think.
My "tells" for portrait CGI still hold true in my eyes:
1) the neckline of clothing models in general need far more realism. I always wind up going to photoshop to post process it. Here I can still see the edges are still too crisp and perfect, and I can still see the vertices on it, especially as it plunges down.
2) the necklace prop/clothing totally let's you down. The pendant looks like it should have significant weight, yet the chain looks like it floats above the skin at times with it's shadowing. And I think the chain should be more taut, but unfortunately, it seems to try to traverse the contours above her collarbone in an unnatural manner. In my eyes, it looks like it's totally breaking the laws of gravity and it is very distracting.
3) The hair is still too perfect. Strands in the main mass of hair are still too uniform to my eye. They don't feel like they come off the scalp naturally. For instance, the part line in her style, the hair seems to grow off the scalp too horizontal. Again, it's another thing I photoshop by making those hairs darker and come off vertically there. And then I add far more wayward strands of hair in various shades in random places.
Thank you for posting, it really helps one train the eye to look for things and see what others are saying.
I'd also highly encourage taking a model photograph, and trying to replicate it in iClone/CC, and it immediately points out the stark contrasts in tool vs real world.
You are absolutely right, though I disagree with the point about the hair in the case of Drea.. Thank you so much for your post.
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