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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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This is an old chestnut and it shouldn't be.
I am struggling to find a logical, workable way of getting my characters to breathe. I can sort of get it to work but it is not 100% and I am told the bones or target, or something are different. Breathing is not just the chest moving. Shoulders, and therefore head (this factor is missing in several tutorials), also move for deep breathing, but a morph only seems to control the whole body, you can’t have simple breathing of just the chest and then have the option to go heavy with a deep breath, it’s all or nothing. I think having the head move is possibly why the target is different, maybe... Please tell me I’m wrong and show me the way! It is extremely annoying and frustrating and especially galling as on the intro screen of iClone 8 it reads ‘Dramatically Simplify Character Animation.’
Breathing, like blinking, is fundamental to give life to a character and not just to get breath but to draw in breathe before, and out after, speaking, to be breathless and gasping after running or fighting or…whatever. The problem should have been addressed years ago, and not by clever people like @4e2ges whose workaround should not have to be done by we mortals but by Reallusion; it, or similar, should be part of the program. There should already be in place an automatic morph ‘clone’ created with each project (live up to the name, guys!) and this could be python controlled or sliders. This clone, the LifeClone (?), would be purely there for the essentials like the various types of breathing, a menu of ready-mades could be on offer, and would, as now, have its own slot on the Timeline but not as 'morph'. Another essential it should have would be the constant fidgeting movement we do with our fingers. I noticed in CC4 and iC8 trailers examples of fab dancing but static fingers. Tut tut. With the amazingly useful, and for me indispensable, Hand Gesture Puppet currently not running I can well imagine more static fingers entering into projects and it really is not good. Please put some breath into CC4/iC8 and, before that, tell me how to give life to my characters, there must be an updated, easier version of 4e2ges excellent tut!
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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I thought this feature would be in iC8.
I'm really surprised it doesn't.
That's why the characters look like robots, which greatly distorts the realism.
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By sungod - 3 Years Ago
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In which category this feature request should be ?
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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I think animation
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By sungod - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges and @all
What should be specifications of this feature.
What configurable part should be exposed for this feature and what could be challenges for this ?
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@sungod: Is that New Issue form posted by you? Might fill it out - where did it come from? Anyway, not too sure if the following answers your question but…for us to make an avatar breathe we need to create a second version with sliders set in different positions to the original. This becomes a target so we have to link to it. I see no reason why this could not have been automated years ago in CC3/iC7. With AI doing it there is no need for a second avatar just a virtual clone in code that appears in the Timeline as Breathe, and like the current morph version has sliders that can be animated. I see no reason for this clone to not already be working - like blinking is already - it is set to a default so on every 100 frames the slider is 0, then 30, then 0 then 30 etc which would give a gentle rhythm. Then when we want the avatar to talk we go to the timeline or some other place, hit Breathe and the sliders pop up, maybe with default settings for common actions so at the correct frame hit ‘draw in’ and certain sliders would automatically move and then, in between sentences hit ‘take a breath’ at speaking end, hit ‘exhale’ to return to normal. Or we hit ‘heavy’ or ‘panting’ or ‘gasping’. For the life of me I can’t see why this was not normal eons ago. I see no challenges, AI simply makes a background copy of your avatar but makes everything related to breathing 100%. So your chest might be 05, AI would have it as 100. If we want to change the default timing and 30 rise we access the sliders from XXX and that’s it.
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By sungod - 3 Years Ago
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I haven't filled the form as there are much more experienced members like you , @4u2ges etc who will be ideal to suggest this feature request in actionable form .
Why don't you sum your way up , post it here and get it double checked and post in feedback tracker..
Then also post it on Wishful Features thread.
We all will be happy to vote 😌
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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Have put it in Feedback Tracker. Not 100% certain what I’m talking about but feel confident that if I can do something similar in Exel then no reason the boffins at RL can’t do it!
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By facr73 - 3 Years Ago
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This is also one feature I would love to see and also somewhat suprised it isn't in IC8
facr
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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There are probably 4-5 FT tickets have been opened since 2016 for that (search for "breath" in iClone 6 and iClone 7 on FT site).
The oldest one got 25 votes up. Yet we still do not have it. :Whistling: Thus all kind of workarounds..
But It might be that they cannot overcome some issues applying morphs dynamically on the fly which impact performance.
Probably the same issues RL faced a few years back, which stalled implementation of joint corrective morphs into iClone.
Could be something else though.. I am just speculating.
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By LarryPlane - 3 Years Ago
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There is a breathing motion in the animations folder. I've been using this. Could it be adapted to be used in a persona way?
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@LarryPlane There is? Never come across it. Is this a folder of motions you bought or comes with iClone/CC?
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges. Over the years I have also seen the same question and it has never really bothered me but now the avatars are becoming so lifelike there really does need to be something ‘more’. My basic idea is that the programme simply generates almost exactly what you did: If you can do it then I see no earthly reason why AI can’t do the same. It has the info in code, therefore no need to make a second avatar, and from that make a copy but with everything 100 and then, just as you do, have the result display as sliders. I can not see there being any issue with the basic, however, my wish list does expand on that concept and might have problems, but the basics? No way! While I’m here: many, many thanks for your workaround.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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VERY, VERY IMPORTANT!!!! The workaround by 4u2ges is for CC3 with 3Dxchange. CC4 will sort of take you through the same process but you will get errors. I am wasting my time trying to crack something that should, by now, be fundamental or a lot easier, but at least, for now (fingers crossed) we don’t need an external, expensive programme to make it work and I am sure somebody will sort out how to get this better. For now, in CC4: Create avatar (base) then export to iClone. Go back to CC4 and now modify the original so chest (deep front is best but comes from a morph pack) is bigger (just yank it up to 100), some movement on shoulders and neck, export as .iavatar no need to worry about size. Back in iClone and with the original base go to Modify/motion hit morph creator and on the + find the .iavatar file. You will get an error message saying something about bones, height and target and sliders won’t work - this could be a problem but so far 80% of the time the animated mesh works. A whole lot of nonsense will come up, delete the ones you don’t need and you should just have the body and the clothes. You need to animate both. Now send/replace to iClone, the other option does not seem to work. Click on Morph animator to run the sliders and in the Timeline you should now have a dedicated morph track.
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By sungod - 3 Years Ago
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esemgee (5/25/2022)
Have put it in Feedback Tracker. Not 100% certain what I’m talking about but feel confident that if I can do something similar in Exel then no reason the boffins at RL can’t do it!
Can you post feedback link.
Also it will be cool.if this can be done seamlessly.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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Here is a link
But, it might not be as simple as it seems. Morphs work differently.
Having a hard copy for body and related cloth, facilitate the routine when you use a morph slider.
Calculating that out dynamically traditional way might be resources intense.
It's probably possible to cache it somehow, but then changing cloth would invalidate it and would require to rebuild it... Speculations, speculations... :)
So they have to step out of the boundaries and come up with something totally different.
Some lightweight vertex moving protocol. Well yeah... AI :hehe:
And I will look into the morphing routine with CC4 and iClone8
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges Thanks for the link. What I did in CC4 is create some sliders from an avatar - all the AI has to do is just that, and I can’t see the problem… except it doesn’t work 100% and that is possibly because there is meant to be something like 3Dxchange!!! :-) I live in fear that the next upgrade will cover up this loophole! hope you can get to the bottom of whatever the problem is, but it sort of works for what I am working on at the moment. Talking of which - just downloaded your smashed bicycle. You don’t happen to have a version prior to being smashed?
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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That bike was part of the free projects supplied with iClone 6, from which I got the bike, customized it, smashed and submitted to marketplace.
I'd be glad to share the original project, but then I have a question.
Can I share the original project which came with iClone 6 with those who purchased iClone7, 8 etc and do not have a copy of iClone 6?
Or in other words is it possible to download older resource packs by those who purchased the later versions of software?
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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I have no idea! I presume it is now in the public domain. It was once free and many people have it - I guess I do as I have iC6 but in packed format. It was part of iC6 or a later project? Not near my computer to check it out!
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@ 4u2ges: I do have the bike! I think that as long as you make no, or don’t ask for, money, even as a form of exchange, there can’t be any obvious legal problems. You have it, I have it - it was free - and as long as it is passed along in good faith among, and within, legitimate owners of software and assets made by the same company then … what’s the problem???
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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Old resource packs are definitely not installed on new versions.
I had to reinstall and uninstall iClone 7 to be able to install the iClone 7 resource pack. (For importing mix animations to iClone8)
With iClone 8, the mix animations included in iClone 7 have been removed.
I don't think these can be distributed for free outside the market to those who have the next version.
The best way to find out is to modify the original a little and add it to the market for free. If RL approves it's fine :)
Maybe the animation list may be a problem, but I don't think a bike will be a problem.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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I have tested CC4 ans IC8 with morph routine and did not find any problems.
Just make sure not to use sliders - only mesh edit.
Some sliders deform/scale bones and that is not applicable to morph animations which only move vertices.
If you intend to move head vertices, then you'd have to separately move mesh for eyes, teeth, occlusion and tear-line.
Quick result:
I have also tested a Blender routine for Breath morph exporting entire body out of Morph Creator as OBJ.
Also came out just fine. And it is so much easier to work with Blender, specially for the head, where you do not have to worry about working out eyes and teeth separately.
Using Shape keys can give you a preview on a spot where you can go back and forth tweaking the morph.
Both Import to Blender and Export out of it must have Vertex order and Polygroups selected.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges. Damn, you’re clever! That explains the error message I get about bones. As it is the mesh that gives the effect - and that seems to work - then my method is valid, just messy! So, basically, in CC4 your CC3 tutorial/workaround holds up without the need for 3Dxchange? Have Blender but just too old to get to grips with it but need a bespoke fluttering flag so need to make the plunge…
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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There is so much stuff that needs to be uploaded I have yet to come across the missing mixmoves. Damn, they were quite useful. Because the Hand Gesture Puppet is unavailable in iC8 (I hope temporarily,) I am using iC7 as well as 8. Though as going from 8 to 7 raises problems (had files not open) one needs to plan ahead!
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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LarryPlane (5/26/2022)
There is a breathing motion in the animations folder. I've been using this. Could it be adapted to be used in a persona way?
I found what you are referring to. So, yes, for static idle they are pretty good but they don’t give you control over the avatar to make it breathe how and when. As for trying to adapt them: it might actually be more frustrating than starting anew as I can never find the key frames in these ‘ready-mades’. My workaround works in CC4 but is not elegant and so far the best method, by 4u2ges, also works in CC4 as there is now no need for 3dxchange.
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By toydoc - 3 Years Ago
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I would think this could be accomplished if we could keyframe bone scale. such as key the chest bone a little. also would allow arm/leg stretching like mr. fantastic or elastic girl.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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toydoc (6/17/2022)
I would think this could be accomplished if we could keyframe bone scale. such as key the chest bone a little. also would allow arm/leg stretching like mr. fantastic or elastic girl.
It would have been ideal, if iClone would support bones scaling on a timeline. But unfortunately it does not, thus all kind of workarounds.
Bones scaling morphs or direct timeline option is a long awaited feature.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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I’m just chasing simple breathing but love a dreamer! What I’m after is something fixed, just like blinking where we can change default to nervous etc but here from normal, to sharp/deep intake, exhale and rapid etc. The methods above use the Morph creator/animator but is not a true morph and of course uses the dedicated Morph timeline box. All that is needed is for chest, shoulders and neck plus clothing to move and that could be automatically generated by Reallusion or a python script, and would use its own timeline slot. It has nothing to do with morphs, or for that matter ‘bone’ scale, it is not the bones that get bigger! It is frustrating how easy this should, could, be…
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By Amper Sand - 3 Years Ago
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Morphs are using their own timeline slot. And is a very convenient solution since they applies over the existing animation.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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While RL devs and management are scratching heads, thinking whether or nor to implement breathing :P, I came up with a universal solution for breath morphs.
I did create a single slider in CC. Unlike the other method I have shown with Mesh Edit, this slider was created by Pose Edit and bone based CC sliders combined.
I then was able to import that slider into iClone as a morph slider (without bone scale error, nor distortions).
The advantage of this method is, that slider can be applied to ANY clothed character and then easily transferred to iClone without the need to morph each character individually in CC.
Prerequisites:
An A-Bind pose (100% replicated internal RL pose). RL for some reason is stubbornly refusing to provide this pose to users for over 2 years already. I just updated this pose: https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost476255.aspx
So here is the same slider (created on Neutral Base in CC) which was later converted into iClone morph for all 3 characters.
Since it is a CC slider based solution, it only applies to CC 3 Base characters.
I will create a workflow and post it later on.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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As always: gobsmacked by just well @4u2ges knows his way around all this stuff! I await his workflow with bated breath. My worry is that now with 3 methods, one being my flawed but functioning workaround, RL will see the matter as resolved and wash their hands. NO!!! Breathing is fundamental to a character and needs its own timeline slot, one which, as @Amper Sand points out, is applied over the animation. It should not be seen as a morph.
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges is there a way to define it as a loop in iClone, or do I need to add it to the timeline one after the other?
I haven't seen a field that I can add as a loop until now and this sometimes makes my job very difficult.
I agree with @esemgee on this as well.
Breathing is the most important trait of a character.
Even with UE characters, at least the character sways back and forth slightly, giving the impression of breathing.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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@esemgee :);)
@yepkoo There probably is a way to make a loop for the morphs with Python script. But honestly it is not that time consuming adding loops manually.
It could be added with geometric progression.
You create 2 keys - inhale and exhale (make exhale slightly longer than inhale). You then assign curve preset for each.
I usually assign Ease In for the inhale and Ease Out for the exhale.
Then copy those 2 keys and paste on the timeline to the right of course from the second key.
Now select 4 keys and again paste to the right. Then 8, 16, 32, 64, 128. With 7 copy/paste operations you can cover over 2 min of animation at the timeline this way.
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges Thanks.
Very useful tips.
I will try to do something with this information.
Also, if you have a youtube channel, I would like to follow your tutorials. If not, it definitely should.
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By Amper Sand - 3 Years Ago
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Technically, I'm assuming I understand their problems in implementing this feature: has anybody observed how Viseme performs with clothes or accessories covering the neck's Adam apple? Viseme properly is deforming the character's mesh, but cloth remains fixed, because it's not being conformed for each Viseme movement.
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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It might be an option to have the character sway back and forth, like UE characters, to make it look like they're breathing.
However, it seems quite difficult to do this and it is necessary to do it separately for each character.
RL needs to integrate this into the character, like a wink.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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As pointed out there is a 'breathing' idle motion in iC8. And, if a person is this idle and relaxed one might not notice actual breathing but just in the UE clip you can see an essence of life because of the attempt to add breathing. Mind you, we are never static and even in the clip I feel there should be a wee twitch in the fingers to really make it sing!
Amper Sand's point about the Adam's Apple is interesting. When doing my flawed breathing I only need to change the sliders of the avatar, Creating the morph automatically generates the slider for the cloth, you'd think something similar could be done with this problem, though often an Adam's Apple 'moves' the hindrance, rather than expands it.
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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Don't mind if I talk about Unreal and show examples.
Since I'm a UE user, I usually talk over UE.
My problem is being able to implement this feature without using any animation.
For example, I cannot give this feature to an animation I created from scratch with a video reference.
This makes the character act like a robot.
I need to do this using any animation.
UE has the ability to blend all animations.
iClone only does endpoint blends.
The only option is the new layer feature, but that's not something I want to mess with.
For now the way @4u2ges suggested seems the most realistic and easiest.
As @Amper Sand said, if there are clothes that cause problems, I may not use them.
The bottom line is that we all want RL to add a feature about it.
But I don't expect head-to-toe realism
To make these behave like real people, mocap devices need to be used.
Even that would not constitute fully human realism.
Maybe what I need is a blending system instead of breathing.
If this feature existed, I could already do a lot of things myself.
In short, when I create an animation, I want breath to be added to it automatically, and even this slight shaking feature seems enough for me for now.
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By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
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OK, I revised the routine slightly. It does not require any prerequisites now.
The goal was to allow bone driven morphs and poses to be transferred into Morphs Creator.
Traditional iAvatar format does not work in this case. It gives an error and deforms intended morphs badly.
The only other option was an OBJ format export out of CC. In my testings so far RL did a nice job revising OBJ morphs import/export routine in IC8/CC4.
However this method still has some quirks.
Pros:
Universal slider can be created in CC which accommodates combination of bone driven sliders.
Deforming mesh through Edit Pose mode can be applied afterwards individually per character.
Cons:
OBJ method is more critical to mesh quality than iAvatar format. Cloth/Accessories geometry must be errors free.
Need to be careful to not overdo bones animation. Lower body, lower arms and specifically fingers must not be animated while preparing character for morphs.
Tutorial has 2 parts:
First part shows how to actually make a morph slider in CC and then apply to some clothed character.
In second part, I am showing how to fix an internal geometry inconsistency for cloth item which failed to accept the morph.
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By michaelrbarton - 3 Years Ago
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Mixamo has a breathing idle motion. Actorcore has a standby idle motion that looks like the character has a breathing motion.
ActorCore - Stand By Idle - 3D Motion (reallusion.com)
 
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By yepkoo - 3 Years Ago
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@4u2ges that looks pretty good, thanks for the tutorial, I'll try to implement it.
@michaelrbarton I will also review these animations. However, it seems quite difficult for me to integrate them into an animation that I will prepare. I'm not sure how much can be done with key duplication.
Actually iClone needs blend system. A huge understatement for a character animation program.
The absence of this feature makes Motion Director, which is an excellent feature, semi-useless.
You cannot hold a gun and shoot while walking.
You have to do this using a layer or you have to copy the on-body keys from a weapon animation. However, this will provide you with a static weapon animation. Because copying all keys is quite a long job.
Instead, you copy the first and last frame keys.
If you want the character to shoot with a rifle while walking, you need to merge it with an animation that shoots a rifle while walking.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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I have just now spotted a huge error in my discussion. I say 'why is this not in CC4?'. Which explains posts about idle poses showing breathing. However, in iC8, add any other movement and pow, no breathing - so, my mistake; it is the the lack of breathing ability as a fundamental fixed feature of iC8 that is the real issue - and which should have been in iC7. Within this discussion we now have three workarounds, the most simplistic being my 'error' one and the 2 by @4u2ges which are more solid and professional. That is progress! But it is not us who should be doing the tinkering. I am going to repeat myself here. As the avatars become more realistic then RL really need to up the ante and offer up a dedicated breathing track on the timeline so things such as the various depths of intake of breath before and after speaking, the nuances of exhaling as bad news hits home, the heavy breathing after running etc, etc, etc are easy to control and not mixed in with other motion keys. My simplistic version ends up with just two sliders, yep, not ideal, created purely by jacking up certain chest, neck and shoulder sliders in a clone and using morph generator. No bones were hurt in this process! One slider is the cloth which was automatically generated. Now, why hasn't that simplistic approach been AI driven since iC6 or iC7, but rather than morph, simply put to 'breathe'? The reason why I am repeating myself is this: usually when there is anything remotely critical of RL @Peter(RL) jumps in with a valid remark or point. His silence in this rather important discussion, that has produced workarounds, is therefore rather telling. Is RL a bit embarrassed by its total neglect of this fundamental life-giving attribute?
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By Amper Sand - 3 Years Ago
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As a software developer myself, I can assure you that what's "easy to do" from customer's point of view in 99% it's damn difficult to do by developers.
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By esemgee - 3 Years Ago
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@ Amber Sand. Yes, I can well imagine! The fact AI seems to be doing some of the work hints that it is not impossible - remember all that is needed is to simply generate a clone with some sliders so we don’t have to! The fact we can easily do this now must indicate plausibility!
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