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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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So when we combine motions to build up our scenes, we often need to remove the front half of a clip and realign the remainder to the previous clip. The align to bodypart tools are quite good at this, but the resulting clip will have a significant jump away from the pivot. This is often not an issue, but sometimes can be problematic for adding and blending additional clips. So my proposal is to create a Python script that can realign the pivot to the previous pivot. It does not need to worry about anything else, because the body part alignment can be used to fine tune.
And if someone wants a bonus round, then a way to automate my "mix-down" with a Python script would be awesome! :)
The reason we might want to do a mix down as I did in the video, instead of just merging the clips, is that it re-records everything in the timeline into a new clip. So keys and pivot are included. :)
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By mtakerkart - 5 Years Ago
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GO RAMPA!!!
It will be very usefull for my pipeline to mix my own mocap with mocap from contentstore.
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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mtakerkart (6/5/2021)
GO RAMPA!!!
It will be very usefull for my pipeline to mix my own mocap with mocap from contentstore.
I have zero Python skills, so I cannot do it myself. The full mix-down is the ideal, because it records whatever is in the timeline into a new, perfectly tracked clip. It's pretty easy to do manually, as long as you stop it in time to not record over any following clips.
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By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago
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Perhaps Mr. G could repurpose some of his code from here:
https://forum.reallusion.com/459858/XMirror-Invert-Clip-Script?PageIndex=1
(I am SO not into coding nowadays. I can't even get a simple edit of the Terrain thingee to work. Sigh).
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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That be great for someone to make the routine. Specially it should not be that hard. But I really do not have time to dig into it now.
And there are more experienced python users here who might want to assist.
I am dealing with it in every other project. The way I workaround is rather simple:
After I cut the clip, I do not use transform to get it into position.
Yes, aligning tool is great, but I sure like to have the pivot to be on the character at all times.
So.. I simply save the cut out clip, then delete it and reapply. Then do the motions blending.
But the automation would have been nice to have.
Regarding a mix-down. I might be missing the point, but don't we have a merge clips function introduced at some point?
Works fine for me.
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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4u2ges (6/5/2021)
Regarding a mix-down. I might be missing the point, but don't we have a merge clips function introduced at some point?
Works fine for me.
We do have the merge, but it does not record in the new root tracking or keys like saving or "mixing" does.
Edit. To clarify, saving does not do the tracking part. It's when you load the saved clip that the tracking is added if the motion settings are checked. Or when the "mix" is recorded.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Yeah, I see.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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So OK. We've had a discussion before about it. Lets clarify. The tracking is a MotionRoot bone position. It always saved with the clip.
But when you reapply the clip and depending on animation settings, it either leave this bone values alone.. or it does recalculate it based on current avatar position.
So basically all that needs to be done is to recalculate a single bone called MotionRoot on the fly. Very basic math.
And you can verify that by opening Curve Editor. MotionRoot is the very first bone.
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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It would be cool if it was another collect clip option. Like select the region in blue and record directly back to the timeline to replace the region. It was the having to save and reload the motion that I was trying to get around with the mix-down idea.
I was just reminded of it yesterday when I was trying to fix someone's unusual motion clip issue.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Well Rampa, what can I say... You are much closer to the RL, than I am.
There are so many things needs to be improved about animation in particular (and everything else in general).
Based on your daily experience dealing with those issues... can you just give them a little push? :P:);)
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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It is something I will suggest. I think that level of collect clip integration would indeed need to go the team. :)
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Rampa (6/5/2021)
It is something I will suggest. I think that level of collect clip integration would indeed need to go the team. :)
That will be great!
I just want to correct myself in this: "But when you reapply the clip and depending on animation settings, it either leave this bone values alone.. "
NO, it does not leave the value alone! If you uncheck the "Reset Motion Root" and "Reset Motion Root Rotation" and reapply the saved clip, it never landed to the same location. It always doubles the MotionRoot tracking data.
And if you reapply the clip, it doubles again sending character further and further each time.
And that is a bug. I mentioned it to someone from RL once, But they kind of left it without attention.
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By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago
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+1
*Any improvement* that makes working with animation more efficient and straight forward would be a great relief! As anyone who's worked with DaVinci Resolve would most likely attest to: "There is a program truly refined to help the user every step of the way". It's an incredibly efficient program designed so that nothing's a redundant step. If iClone could emulate such operational elegance it would go from strength to strength!
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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Slightly OT, but I would wish for RL to seriously look at iClone's implementation from a efficiency perspective, in general.
Even with a powerful PC loading a larger project takes a long time. Elsewhere, 4u2ges suggested to split up a project in parts under a master folder. Right now you can easily have a project file of 2 GB or more, which needs to be processed before it can be loaded.
I also wished that the Python scripts could have a compiled version to speed things up, especially once they are released such as the terrain script. It might be an idea to have a second pair of programmer eyes look at the efficiency of the coding.
iClone as like a beautiful engine with many useful bells and whistles, but we shouldn't need a supercomputer to run it.
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By mtakerkart - 5 Years Ago
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I know that's not really the subject here but to pick up on the theme of the performance of our computers we must not forget that the assets are of much better quality, however this has a cost in performance.
The G5 were 3 to 4 times less greedy ... The real problem with Iclone since the beginning is the management of the opacity. In all areas. It influences the SSS, DOF, particles, etc ... It was a big problem for Unreal engine at one time but they fixed it.  by the way, don't you find this delay in the roadmap strange? |
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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Rampa (6/5/2021)
It is something I will suggest. I think that level of collect clip integration would indeed need to go the team. :)
I think 4U2Ges is on the right track here, this is an RL thing...they have simply much more extensive speed and power to create.
Otherwise you would put the effort in yourself to learning python and you would develop it for everyone yourself, by your own sacrifice and effort.
But you are already ahead of that - why should you....there is an definitive entity in RL that can do it fast.
I will myself posit that we as a group need to specifically incentivize them with $. Tell them you will pay for such an upgrade. They have everything to gain when they see users willing to pay.
If one says "it depends on how much" or, "I want to see, first", or "let's see what the community will do first", it will go nowhere, as it's potential then is dependant on a non-controlled variable set of someone else's schedule.
If time is not urgent for us as the wanting party, then a "someone else" will not see it urgent either
You have the power - If you build a price for them, they will come.
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By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago
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The delay in the roadmap is undoubtedly caused by the new breakouts of Wuhan in RL's main city/country. They have new restrictions that are almost certainly making it difficult for the team(s) (not everyone can work from home or have the same access).
I suspect we'll see the new roadmap in the next couple of months.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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@Tony: it is all very well if you have big bucks to spend, as you seem to, but I don't.
However, I have cumulatively spent a lot on RL products over the years, so I think it not unreasonable to request product improvements.
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By Data Juggler - 5 Years Ago
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[quote]animagic (6/6/2021)
@Tony: it is all very well if you have big bucks to spend, as you seem to, but I don't.
In another post:
I got the top of the line with an RTX 3090
I read that and thought Bezos, Musk, Gates, Animagic.
(j/k, I am jealous). I have a new job so I am thinking of ordering one.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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I just think RL will navigate towards the cash flow.
Animagic - I think what you are positing is very interesting, that if you already paid RL throughout the years for items, they owe you now "courtesy things", kind of.
But the exchange of cash in the past was specifically for the items, not necessarily for future courtesies.
So it funnels then to you are proposing prospective future-business in exchange for a RL-improvement. What I am saying is very similar, albeit more direct - proposing immediate $ in exchange for a RL improvement.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (6/7/2021)
I just think RL will navigate towards the cash flow.
Animagic - I think what you are positing is very interesting, that if you already paid RL throughout the years for items, they owe you now "courtesy things", kind of.
But the exchange of cash in the past was specifically for the items, not necessarily for future courtesies.
So it funnels then to you are proposing prospective future-business in exchange for a RL-improvement. What I am saying is very similar, albeit more direct - proposing immediate $ in exchange for a RL improvement.
My worry is that it might lead to an uneven playing field where "sponsored" improvement proposals get priority. I don't think that is a desirable state of affairs.
We all have different priorities in what we find necessary. I prefer to do most of my work in the iClone/CC environment, so that is my primary interest for improvements. For others it is the interfacing with third-party applications. RL has been fairly good in doing a balancing act. RL got a financial injection from Unreal to develop the bridge between CC and UE and now get sort of snubbed at by UE's own Metahumans.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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Data Juggler (6/6/2021)
[quote]animagic (6/6/2021)
@Tony: it is all very well if you have big bucks to spend, as you seem to, but I don't.
In another post:
I got the top of the line with an RTX 3090
I read that and thought Bezos, Musk, Gates, Animagic.
(j/k, I am jealous). I have a new job so I am thinking of ordering one.
Don't worry, I got one in the sense that it is in my possession, but I had to finance it...:blink:
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By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago
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And even a top of the line computer as Job and I have doesn't promise you all is well.
This kind of tags onto something Mr. G posted elsewhere, but since Job mentioned it in this thread: I'm having a helluva time loading in a really banal project, one with NO textures (and total memory of less than 1GB in the GPU - and I have 24 to spare). Apparently it's just the NUMBER of objects iClone objects to - not even polys (less than 300K of total polys). It has a few hundred separate, small objects, and takes freaking FOREVER to load in off an SSD drive.
The exact same project, with all objects merged, takes less than a minute. So iClone itself is just having issues with numbers of total objects but not vertices, not materials, nothing but total counts. This is really unacceptable and clearly stupid. I can't even imagine how long it would take to load this project with my old computer. And, once loaded, it takes forever to do anything with this - not to render (that only takes seconds) but just to even add another object to the scene or move one of these objects around. So there are definite issues with some extreme basics of iClone.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (6/7/2021)
And even a top of the line computer as Job and I have doesn't promise you all is well.
This kind of tags onto something Mr. G posted elsewhere, but since Job mentioned it in this thread: I'm having a helluva time loading in a really banal project, one with NO textures (and total memory of less than 1GB in the GPU - and I have 24 to spare). Apparently it's just the NUMBER of objects iClone objects to - not even polys (less than 300K of total polys). It has a few hundred separate, small objects, and takes freaking FOREVER to load in off an SSD drive.
The exact same project, with all objects merged, takes less than a minute. So iClone itself is just having issues with numbers of total objects but not vertices, not materials, nothing but total counts. This is really unacceptable and clearly stupid. I can't even imagine how long it would take to load this project with my old computer. And, once loaded, it takes forever to do anything with this - not to render (that only takes seconds) but just to even add another object to the scene or move one of these objects around. So there are definite issues with some extreme basics of iClone.
So true. I did experiment a while ago. Imported a subdivided sphere (4M polys) into a small project. Altogether there was 50 something objects and 4.3M polys. Performance vise there was very small difference. Barely noticeable. Navigation menus, timeline - all were fast as normal.
But try to have over 300 objects in the scene and you are screwed big time.
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By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago
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4u2ges (6/7/2021)
But try to have over 300 objects in the scene and you are screwed big time.
This isn't acceptable. I just went back into my project again and merged everything (using Blender) and the exact same project, with ONE object, works lighting fast. Same textures, same polys, but one object and iClone is really happy. Same project with hundreds of objects -- unworkable.
WTF? This is a real issue. There's no excuse for a modern 3D program not to be able to handle a few hundred objects. But I did wish I knew this earlier (I spent dozens of hours over the weekend trying to deal with it and was about to give up. Now at least I can work on it although with one object there are compromises I wish I didn't have to make). It also might explain a few things about other projects I've tried in the past (in those I just assumed it was textures causing my GPU to choke, but with 24GB of GPU memory I am a LOT less forgiving of "running out of memory").
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Yep, got to do the unthinkable.
I handled it slightly different. Deleted everything that was not essential for animation, saved as a new project, animated (I least I could play and navigate timeline), saved and re-imported back to the main project.:Whistling::crazy:
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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animagic (6/7/2021)
TonyDPrime (6/7/2021)
I just think RL will navigate towards the cash flow.
Animagic - I think what you are positing is very interesting, that if you already paid RL throughout the years for items, they owe you now "courtesy things", kind of.
But the exchange of cash in the past was specifically for the items, not necessarily for future courtesies.
So it funnels then to you are proposing prospective future-business in exchange for a RL-improvement. What I am saying is very similar, albeit more direct - proposing immediate $ in exchange for a RL improvement.
My worry is that it might lead to an uneven playing field where "sponsored" improvement proposals get priority. I don't think that is a desirable state of affairs. We all have different priorities in what we find necessary. I prefer to do most of my work in the iClone/CC environment, so that is my primary interest for improvements. For others it is the interfacing with third-party applications. RL has been fairly good in doing a balancing act. RL got a financial injection from Unreal to develop the bridge between CC and UE and now get sort of snubbed at by UE's own Metahumans.
We are already there, or likely have always been there, where cash flow drives development.
But think of this - you actually financed a 3090. Why is that desirable if you enabled NVidia to charge higher than you as a user financially have. You enabled NVidia to be successful while you enter into a debt situation. How is this a healthy interaction. This is then the uneven playing field, where other future users now must also meet that higher price point, created by your own hands.
BUT - that is only part of the story, isn't it....Because in the end, you enact your art and will likely be more successful with a higher end tool. So it's an investment sacrifice you make in order to then reach a higher prospective aim. Well, considering this, offering RL $ for work is in itself a similar, albeit more direct, way at entering an exchange to arrive at an aim.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (6/7/2021)
4u2ges (6/7/2021)
But try to have over 300 objects in the scene and you are screwed big time.
This isn't acceptable. I just went back into my project again and merged everything (using Blender) and the exact same project, with ONE object, works lighting fast. Same textures, same polys, but one object and iClone is really happy. Same project with hundreds of objects -- unworkable. WTF? This is a real issue. There's no excuse for a modern 3D program not to be able to handle a few hundred objects. But I did wish I knew this earlier (I spent dozens of hours over the weekend trying to deal with it and was about to give up. Now at least I can work on it although with one object there are compromises I wish I didn't have to make). It also might explain a few things about other projects I've tried in the past (in those I just assumed it was textures causing my GPU to choke, but with 24GB of GPU memory I am a LOT less forgiving of "running out of memory").
Maybe the CPU is choking when processing the textures dynamically real-time somehow? Like maybe one object calls once and then multiple objects call multiple times or something like that?
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By Data Juggler - 5 Years Ago
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It seems to me IClone wastes a lot of resources on objects that are not even visible in the scene, or that are off camera.
I think some performance enhancements could be done with only rendering objects in the View Port.
Aa text based project would be better, so if the saved a project it becomes too big too open, you can open the project file in Notepad and take out some things.
Or as someone mentioned, move project resources out of the project. So the project opens, and load resources in some way that doesn't hog your system.
But I write software for business, and when I see CC put socks on between a character's feet and shoes I just say 'wow'.
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By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago
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I've become accustomed to working in *slo-motion* (GTX-1070). If you were to liken orbiting around an object in 3DXChange to "walking through an empty swimming pool of just air" (ie: *fast*), then orbiting the same object in iClone is like "walking through a pool full of treakle". The 'viscosity' is mean! - lol. I could work ten times faster if it wasn't for the treakle effect!
I think regardless of where each iCloner is at (hardware wise), we'll always be pushing the limits/boundaries ..... Human nature ...
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By Data Juggler - 5 Years Ago
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That's my word for that day. Had to look this up:
Treacle.
a thick, sticky dark syrup made from partly refined sugar; molasses.
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By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (6/7/2021)
Maybe the CPU is choking when processing the textures dynamically real-time somehow? Like maybe one object calls once and then multiple objects call multiple times or something like that?
No, I actually removed ALL the textures from ALL the objects (bringing it into blender and then exporting as OBJ) and it made no difference -- still slow as molasses. It has nothing to do with textures, everything to do with object count.
(And, again, it isn't a texture problem because turning the viewport off so it doesn't even try to display textures has no effect). As soon as I made all the objects into one everything worked again. But you ought to be able to try this yourself -- without copying an object, just load or create something with a few hundred objects (with all different names - that *might* have something to do with it as well). I promise you the system will then hang up.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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As to the efficiency of merged objects, I can attest to that.
I have an animated Anima crowd of about 50 running people that I imported, which is a single prop (over 400k polys). I was pleasantly surprised it worked so well, and now I understand why.
(Everyone, I apologize for bringing up my finances in the discussion. It's neither here nor there. I admit defeat in the debate with Tony. Let the $$$ flow! :P)
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By justaviking - 5 Years Ago
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Regarding performance -
We have known for a long time that iClone is not a very efficient program. For example, they way it handles "copies" or "instances" of objects seems to have a lot of room for improvement in resource usage and efficiency.
Regarding paying for fixes -
Unless you are a significant company (animation or special effects house) that makes money using iClone, I don't see why we should be offering extra money for fixes to the underlying architecture and behavior of iClone. Isn't that part of why we pay for new releases, such as when iClone v8 comes out? Shiny new features are nice, but the foundation upon which they stand is also important and has been seemingly neglected for far too long.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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@Animagic - I think we always share fundamental ideals and I know as artists we both strive for excellent results, I honor our discussions and kneel before you humbled by your words!
PS1 - can you PLEASE tell me then how to defeat Kelleytoons in a debate, I can't do it!
PS2 - congrats on a 3090 :cool:
@Kelleytoons - I have experienced the many object / hidden object debacle you speak of. Maybe even a blank textured object still occupies a slot to call in real-time to the CPU or something. Whatever it is it hurts Frame Rate and UI. In maybe a related dynamic, iClone's Live Link to UE4 frame rate drops by half almost if there are 2 or more characters. So iClone does not like multiple objects in a myriad of ways
@JAV - I think if RL offers a product, and then it is broken upon use, it is indeed reasonable to expect a fix. I wouldn't imagine anyone paying for that. I am thinking more along the lines of what Rampa is asking other users to create in Python, a motion-blending thing that does not already exist in iClone, and which also has never been advertised as part of iClone. Like that is a specifically unique added feature request. Someone else could be like "OMG, they added in a motion blender but they never fixed the multiple-Object-chug thing...." You know, it all could be very subjective if we just expect them to do one thing vs another.
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By MilesV - 5 Years Ago
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I'm still surprised they don't give people the choice of paying for a perpetual license or a subscription. It seems like adding a subscription would lower the bar of entry, increase the user base, and give them a more predictable cash flow every month to put towards incremental improvements. And then those that can afford to buy perpetual licenses still will because in the long run it saves money over the subscription and they own the product.
Maybe we'll get lucky and iClone 8 will be more performant.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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MilesV (6/7/2021)
I'm still surprised they don't give people the choice of paying for a perpetual license or a subscription. It seems like adding a subscription would lower the bar of entry, increase the user base, and give them a more predictable cash flow every month to put towards incremental improvements. And then those that can afford to buy perpetual licenses still will because in the long run it saves money over the subscription and they own the product.
Maybe we'll get lucky and iClone 8 will be more performant.
Subscription has been mentioned in the past and there was strong opposition against it especially if it means that no longer paying results in your software will being disabled (Adobe model). More and more companies do it but it will cost you, as you pay ransom to be able to continue using the software.
iClone 7 has had a four-year run I believe and many improvements have been added without additional cost to the user that could have easily been new yearly releases. I admit it is a bit more costly now with plugins and such, but still.
You could perhaps have a pay-to-own model, where you subscribe and then once you have paid more or less the equivalent of a direct purchase you own what you have up to that point. Then, if you want the benefit of further improvements you keep your subscription.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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@Tony: You make me blush...:blush:
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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So my proposal is to create a Python script that can realign the pivot to the previous pivot.
Right now I do need exact opposite. I need to remove tracking and convert it to Hip bone.
Saving clip can help with adding tracking to Motion Root.
But the opposite is not possible to make inside iClone no matter what I tried.
And the reason I need this, because Reach Effectors do NOT stop Motion Root movements by XY.
This is a basic stand in place motion clip with insignificant torso and legs movements (which I still want to keep).
Yet they hard-coded translation, which I cannot convert to motion (unless I write a script, which I am trying to avoid).
If anyone knows how to fix it. I need to lock an arm for good and add my own motion with reach effector (because there is still something else is linked to the hand, which has to only follow effector).
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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Do you mean stripping out the tracking? Opening the modify and clicking OK will do that. It removes all tracking, and leaves the pivot at it's frame one position.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Do you mean stripping out the tracking? Opening the modify and clicking OK will do that. It removes all tracking, and leaves the pivot at it's frame one position.
Oh boy, great, thanks Rampa!
Exact what I needed - convert tracking into Hip bone.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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Just a little exception. Sampling per frame torso and legs stops working correctly. Guess that is OK for now.
Edit: OK got it. To complete, so that change is sorts of "baked", have to sample per frame All parts and then Flatten it.
After that individual parts can be sampled without distorting overall motion.
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By Rampa - 5 Years Ago
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Coolio! :)
Glad that worked.
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