Rigged Max character

Rigged Max character

Home
»
Archive
»
iClone 4 Forum
»
Pipeline - 3DXchange, 3ds Max, Character Studio, BVH
»
3DXchange4

https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic47652.aspx

Print Topic | Close Window

By peteradam6 - 16 Years Ago

Is there any special 3Dxchange 4 trick to getting a fully rigged character (from 3DS Max, say) into iClone in such a way that the standard iClone drag-and-drop animations will work on it?

Context: I just converted one successfully from Max, using FBX and the "convert to character" - and of course the character can be hand-animated using iClone's Motion Edit menu. But none of the right-click "perform actions" work, although they are listed on the character. Drag-and-drop motions don't work.

Do such characters always have to be specially animated in Max (or Maya) first? Or is there some trick to make them convert with the standard iClone character bones - and so use iMotion and BVH?

Please don't tell me to completely re-rig the character using the CCD Max template (which I can't use, even if I knew how, because I'm not a developer).

By Peter (RL) - 16 Years Ago

Hi Peter,

It sounds as though you are currently working with what is classified as a Non-Human Character.

To be a Standard iClone character an avatar must meet certain requirements.

They must be rigged with the RL Bone system (not Biped or MAx Bones). They also must have a defined Upper, Lower, Shoes, Face, Hair structure and correctly setup connection points between these parts. You might like to take a look at an older whitepaper that discusses all these requirements. You can find it HERE.

I'm a little puzzled by your pipeline though. Surely if you have 3DS Max then you could use the iClone4 Plugin (available free from the Developer Center) and export directly to iClone rather than going through 3DXchange4? You will of course still need to meet the requirements mentioned above.

By peteradam6 - 16 Years Ago

Hi; thanks for the reply. I was hoping that when I clicked on "Convert to Character" 3Dxchange 4 Pro would be powerful enough to intelligently convert a standard rigged biped-human character FBX to have iClone-compatible ("RL"?) bones. It seems not.

Thanks for the tip on the Max export freebie. I do remember seeing something recently about a new version and a download link. Perhaps I already have it installed. But I really don't want to get into completely re-rigging and re-weighting meshes on a perfectly-good already-rigged Max character. That just seems like overkill. And isn't the skeleton bit of it only available to developers?

So.... I guess the answer to my question is: no. It seems that for FBX-import characters the animations have to be either: 1) added in Max before FBX export; or 2) added and saved once in iClone, by using the Motion Editor and timeline.

Additional question: assuming I am going for option 2 and using Motion Edit to make and add some basic motions.... how do I first delete the non-functional "Perform..." commands off my character (once it's in iClone)? The character came into iClone with about 12 non-functional "Perform..." commands on the right-click menu.

By Peter (RL) - 16 Years Ago

Hi Peter,

The different types of avatar can be confusing but basically you will be working with three types of human avatars in iClone4. There are:

Standard Avatar - Can use standard motion files and has interchangable body parts.

Non-Standard Avatar - Can use standard motion files but NO interchangable body parts.

Non-Human Character - Uses Pre-Defined animations or the Edit Motion Layer controls to animate.

When you use the "Convert To Character" option in 3DXchange4 you are creating a Non-Human Character. If the avatar was exported from 3DS Max with animations then these will be listed in 3DXchange4 in the Modify Panel - Animations. You can play them in 3DXchange and rename them if you wish. These animation will then be available using the Perform functions when exported to iClone4.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Peter Edwards (4/15/2010)

Hi Peter,

It sounds as though you are currently working with what is classified as a Non-Human Character.

To be a Standard iClone character an avatar must meet certain requirements.

They must be rigged with the RL Bone system (not Biped or MAx Bones). They also must have a defined Upper, Lower, Shoes, Face, Hair structure and correctly setup connection points between these parts. You might like to take a look at an older whitepaper that discusses all these requirements. You can find it HERE.

I'm a little puzzled by your pipeline though. Surely if you have 3DS Max then you could use the iClone4 Plugin (available free from the Developer Center) and export directly to iClone rather than going through 3DXchange4? You will of course still need to meet the requirements mentioned above.

Peter Edwards (4/15/2010)

Hi Peter,

The different types of avatar can be confusing but basically you will be working with three types of human avatars in iClone4. There are:

Standard Avatar - Can use standard motion files and has interchangable body parts.

Non-Standard Avatar - Can use standard motion files but NO interchangable body parts.

Non-Human Character - Uses Pre-Defined animations or the Edit Motion Layer controls to animate.

When you use the "Convert To Character" option in 3DXchange4 you are creating a Non-Human Character. If the avatar was exported from 3DS Max with animations then these will belisted in 3DXchange4 in the Modify Panel - Animations. You can play them in 3DXchange and rename them if you wish. These animation will then be available using the Perform functions when exported to iClone4.

Ok, now how do you use a 3ds Max character to create a non-standard avatar that can "use standard motion files but NO interchangable body parts"? With 3dXchange or the iClone4 3ds Max plug-in? And, since you are not interchanging body parts (b/c it's non-standard) do you still need to define the UPPER, LOWER, SHOES, FACE, and HAIR structures?

Also, how do you bring morph animation into iClone from 3ds max (fbx> 3dxchange, collada,...)?

How do you rig a 3ds max biped skinned/enveloped character with Clone Bone?

Thank you for your help.

By Illustrator Cathy - 16 Years Ago

This link may be of some help -

http://iclone-the-missing-link.wikispaces.com/Clone+Bone

Cathy :hehe:

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Thank you. I saw this video. However, I am looking for a way to rig a 3ds max skinned and enveloped (joint weighted) character to Clone Bone.

The technique your link refers to requires that the mesh be divided into parts. When you go to animate it, the divided seams show. This is O.K. for robots but not for human characters.

I am still looking for a way to rig a unified mesh to Clone Bone (that can be smoothly animated with no joint seams)...in addition to looking for answers to the related questions I asked previously in this thread.

I appreciate any help or insight that anyone has on these questions.

By Peter (RL) - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/21/2010)

However, I am looking for a way to rig a 3ds max skinned and enveloped (joint weighted) character to Clone Bone.

If you have a rigged Biped or Max Bones avatar then you can just convert this in 3DXchange4 to a Non-Human character ready for iClone4. For a Standard or Non-Standard avatar it must be first rigged with RL Bones (not CloneBone).

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Peter Edwards (4/24/2010)

qdai (4/21/2010)

However, I am looking for a way to rig a 3ds max skinned and enveloped (joint weighted) character to Clone Bone.

CloneBone avatars have their own bone system so I'm not entirely sure why you would want to attach a 3DS Max rigged biped to it. CloneBone works by adding individual mesh parts to the bones to make a new avatar that can be fully animated with standard motion files.

If you have a rigged Biped or Max Bones avatar then you can just convert this in 3DXchange4 to a Non-Human character ready for iClone4. For a Standard or Non-Standard avatar it must be first rigged with RL Bones (not CloneBone).

Because I want to use my custom character with iClone Standard Motions. And non-human characters can not use Standard Motions.

Ok, now how do you use a unique custom 3ds Max character to create a Non-Standard Avatar that can use "Standard Motion files but NO interchangable body parts"? With 3dXchange or the iClone4 3ds Max plug-in? And, since you are not interchanging body parts (b/c it's Non-Standard) do you still need to define the UPPER, LOWER, SHOES, FACE, and HAIR structures?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

sw00000p (4/25/2010)

qdai,

Save Your Breath... They Are Not Going To Tell You (STEP BY STEP)
PERIOD!

sw00000p

I don't need to be given step by step instructions in the forum. I just need to be pointed to the proper tutorial or instructions; which I have been unsuccessful in finding.

qdai (4/25/2010)

...Because I want to use my custom character [unified mesh] with iClone Standard Motions. And non-human characters can not use Standard Motions.

Ok, now how do you use a unique custom 3ds Max character [unified mesh] to create a Non-Standard Avatar by rigging it to RL Bones that can use "Standard Motion files but NO interchangable body parts"? To do this, do you use 3dXchange or the iClone4 3ds Max plug-in? And, since you are not interchanging body parts (b/c it's Non-Standard) do you still need to define the UPPER, LOWER, SHOES, FACE, and HAIR structures?

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Hi, maybe this will help a little

If you want to use the standard motions from RL you can only do this in max with the export plugins. You need the G1,G2 or G3 bone structure. In 3d exchange is this not possible.

You have to throw away the bones from your own character.And throw away the mesh from the RL character Line your own character up with the RL bones and rigg your mesh with the skin modifier. you can do this with one mesh. Export it as non standard character and you can apply all standard motions(except facial motions) in Iclone.

Wil

By Peter (RL) - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/25/2010)

Ok, now how do you use a unique custom 3ds Max character to create a Non-Standard Avatar that can use "Standard Motion files but NO interchangable body parts"? With 3dXchange or the iClone4 3ds Max plug-in? And, since you are not interchanging body parts (b/c it's Non-Standard) do you still need to define the UPPER, LOWER, SHOES, FACE, and HAIR structures?

To create a Non-Standard Character for iClone4 you will need to rig your avatar with the RL Bone system. You will not need to define Upper, Lower etc.

The RL Bone setup is available in Max format in the Developer Center or in FBX format in the 3DXchange4 Pro Resource Pack. You can use these bones to setup your own custom avatar.

For more information on the differences between Standard and Non Standard Characters you may like to look at the guide called Creating G2 characters for iClone. This is available in the Archive section of the Developer Center.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Thank you W.VEEKE and Peter Edwards for your invaluable, and more importantly informative replies!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/25/2010)

../.. If you want to use the standard motions from RL you can only do this in max with the export plugins. You need the G1,G2 or G3 bone structure. In 3d exchange is this not possible../..

Hi,

I believe it is possible because when you load the Maya fbx character base in 3DXchange and export it, you then get a 'Standard Character' usable as such ( standard motion, facial motion, parts switching, .. ) in iClone.

The problem is more on how to create the correct fbx file from your software. ;)

Cheers,
Guy.

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Hi guy ,

I presume the fbx base character is export from max :P . I don't know maya , but It's could recognize , and conserve the connection and others requirement from the RL base bones .
XSI , and others can do this ???? I know some sofware rename ID vertex and crash iclone ....

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

Hi Sen,

Sen (4/27/2010)

../.. I presume the fbx base character is export from max :P ../..

No, it has been exported from Maya, hence the name "Character_Base_for_Maya.fbx". However the problem is not with 3DXchange, wich is capable to export standard iClone characters, but the problem is, like for any other 'false standards' where you have 'user datas' or datas interpreted in a custom way by applications, how to create a proper FBX file from any 3d application to be properly accepted by 3DXchange..

Afaik this has not been documented by Reallusion yet, unfortunately.

Cheers,
Guy.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I believe it is possible because when you load the Maya fbx character base in 3DXchange and export it, you then get a 'Standard Character' usable as such ( standard motion, facial motion, parts switching, .. ) in iClone.

Does this mean that any program that can export a fxb file can be used to produce fxb files that could be converted to Iclone standard characters ?

Im looking for a pipeline from quidam to Iclone standard...:)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/27/2010)

Does this mean that any program that can export a fxb file can be used to produce fxb files that could be converted to Iclone standard characters ? ../..

I believe so. The tricky part is to be able to create the right fbx file with the right informations for 3DXchange to 'understand' that it is meant to be exported as a standard character.

Cheers,
Guy.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

So how we find out more about this ... coz to be honest I could kill for a way to do it with fxb files without 3dmax:)

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/27/2010)

W.VEEKE (4/25/2010)

../.. If you want to use the standard motions from RL you can only do this in max with the export plugins. You need the G1,G2 or G3 bone structure. In 3d exchange is this not possible../..

What do you mean by "Maya fbx character base"? Is this an iClone mesh used for customization in Maya? Is this a native Maya Mesh/Rig? Can you post a picture of it in Maya and in iClone? Where in Maya can the Maya fbx character base be found?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/27/2010)

So how we find out more about this ... coz to be honest I could kill for a way to do it with fxb files without 3dmax:)

Yes, can you please describe your process? Also, please describe the naming convention of the rig bone parts of the "Maya fbx character base"? As well as which versions of the respective programs (Maya, fbx, iClone and 3dxchange) you are using to accomplish this? Thank you!

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

"Maya fbx character base"?

I think he is talking about the fxb bone set that came with 3Dexchange 4 bonus pack :)

It be cool if RL could throw some light on this :D

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Hi, I think there is a big misunderstanding about the fbx file.

I used the maya fbx and also exported this same fbx from max. Of course you can export the fbx to 3d exchange. But in both cases, if you want to use your own mesh it is the same proces as with the RL bones. You have to do it in max or maya(RL has made plugin for both programs) If you inport the fbx in max you start as if you start with the rl bones(only now they are bipped bones, but still you have to rig your own mesh). You can not export this fbx file(standard character) to iclone by other programs then max and maya by using the RL plugins.Or of course use 3d exchange when the fbx contains the rigged character. you have to rig your mesh with the rl bones or bipped(fbx) bones. If you export the fbx with max and import in max again this exported fbx, you simply start with non bipped bones and mesh. And again you have to exchange the RL mesh by your own mesh. This means you can rig the mesh with bipped or RL bones (in max or maya)but as i told you have to reline and rerig your own mesh with this bipped or RL bones or the bones in maya. 3d exchange can not do this for you.3d exchange is very powerfull for fbx files(containing the rigged character or prop with motions) , props and vns files (characters and props) to in- and export to other programs and iclone.To make standard characters You allways have to rerig your own mesh with the bones from the fbx or the RL bones or in maya. In allcases You use allmost the the same proces. and yes then you can do this also with 3d exchange(with an allready rigged standard character), but then you can better transport direct with the plugin.

To make a fbx file is not difficult because max and maya (and many other programs) do this automatically because it is buildin in the programs or as a plugin.. But before you can export your own character you allways have to rig your own mesh with the bipped or RL bones or bones in maya, that is for most users the most difficult part. You have to cut the mesh in the standard bodyparts with the exact needed vertex counts and mesh selection (so that the body parts will stich together in iclone and the head will do the facial animation).

Maybe RL will come with ,more plugins for other programs. Till that time you have to do it with max or maya for standard characters. Non human characters and props can be made (inclusive the motions) in all programs with the fbx exporter together with 3d exchange. But of course there are tricks to more easy rig your character. But that was not the question.

Wil

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/27/2010)

"Maya fbx character base"?

I think he is talking about the fxb bone set that came with 3Dexchange 4 bonus pack :)

It be cool if RL could throw some light on this :D

Ah, yes. The Character Designer's Resource Pack. But since we were discussing being able to use a totally unique (non-iClone) custom character [unified mesh] with iClone Standard Motions, I hope this process still works??????????????????????????????

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

I am confused. Excuse me for being thick; but, I thought grabiller had successfully used 3dxchange and Maya and the fbx file format to create a STANDARD iClone character from a completely custom character mesh. That is, after all what we were talking about.

Now, it appears grabiller just used Maya and 3dxchange and the fbx format to alter a standard iClone character. This is soooooooooooo, not what we were talking about.

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Hi, the proces works for non standard and standard characters as well as for your own characters. if you use non standard character export you can keep totally your own character inclusive the head but without facial animations.You can use all RL standard motions. For standard characters you have to devide your own character in body parts(Upper,lower, hands and feet ) and use the iclone prepaired face. The vertexes of the edges of the bodyparts have to be changed to the vertex counts of standard iclone bodyparts.And the connections with the mesh select function need the wright names. After this you use the skin modifier in max to rig your character and then you can export your own character and use the RL motions

So it is possible to export your own character to iclone with and without facial motions. If you export it as a standard character you can not export the original head. You have to use a iclone head and reshape this with 3d exchange and an other 3d program(as max or zbrush or...)

Wil

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

umph it did sound too good to be true :)

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

Hi, I think there is a big misunderstanding about the fbx file.

...To makestandard characters You allways have to rerig your ownmesh with the bones from the fbx or the RL bones or in maya. In allcases You use allmost the the same proces. and yes then you can do this also with 3d exchange(with an allready rigged standard character), but then you can better transport direct with the plugin.

Allow me to summarize what I think you said. Tell me if I am right or wrong. There are 2 practical ways to get a unique custom mesh into iClone in such a way that it can be animated:

A
1.Sign up for the Developer Premium CCD Membership.
2.Get the iClone Standard character Template and the 3ds max plug-in.
3.Open the Standard Character Template (I assume it is in .max format) in 3ds max.
4.Delete the Template mesh leaving the RL bones.
5.Size your unique mesh to fit the iClone Standard Character Template bones (or RL bones).
6.Use Skin Modifier to skin your mesh to the RL bones.
7.Use the iClone 3ds Max plug-in to export your TOTALLY CUSTOM CHARACTER to iClone format.
8.You now have: Non-Standard Avatar that can use standard motion files but NO interchangable body parts and NO lipsync.

OR, OR, OR

B
1.Purchase 3DXchange 4 Pro which comes with the Character Designer's Resource Pack.
2.Import the iClone Standard Character Template (in fbx file format) into Max or Maya or any other program that accepts fbx file format. The iClone Standard Character Template includes the Character Mesh and RL bones.
3.Follow steps 4 through 6 from above.
4.Import your completed custom character into 3dXchange (in fbx format).
5.Export your Non-Standard "custom" iClone character to iClone format.

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

To make a fbx file is not difficult because max and maya (and many other programs)do this automatically because it is buildin in the programs or as a plugin.. But before you can export your own character you allways have to rig your own mesh with the bipped or RL bones or bones in maya, that is for most users the most difficult part. You have to cut the mesh in the standard bodyparts with theexact neededvertex counts and mesh selection(so that the body parts will stich together in iclone and the head will do the facial animation).

I assume you only have to do this (worry about vertex counts and cutting the mesh) if you want to use your unique mesh to create a STANDARD iClone character that can exchange body parts with other STANDARD iClone characters and that can use iClone's facial animation? In this case, you'd be better off using iClone's character template instead of your own custom mesh.

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

But of course there are tricks to more easy rig your character. But that was not the question.

Wil

Now it is, if you are willing...what are these tricks (for 3ds Max rigging)?

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

hi, yes you understood me well. But after "a little practice" it is also easy to change it in a standard character.:w00t: But better start export a non standard character to learn how to skin.

To tell you how to skin your character the easiest way depends on the way how your character is buildup. Does it have many cloth parts. Has the character unique hair. does it have weapons ore special boyparts such as a tail.

Maybe we can use one of your characters as an example???

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Now, the character is nude and bald. But it will have separate shirt, pants, shoes, and hair (and not that this matters to rigging...morph target animation). However, if it is necessary, I can delete the character mesh below the clothing and make the clothing and the character one mesh.

Will the RL bones for iClone allow me to have bosom jiggle in female characters? If so, does this require special rigging?

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Oh one thing more , as far as i know there are only plugins for exporting characters for maya 7 and max. So if you export the fbx from other programs you have to use 3d exchange to export them as a vns file. For custome made characters(standard and non standard) you better use max an maya, because when you do the skin proces for the first times you have to switch many times between the 3d skin program and iclone. Then the plugin is more preferable then the 3d exchange. For (i)props and unhuman characters you can do this better with 3d exchange program because 3d exchange has a few powerfull functions.

With the fbx file i prefer 3d exchange, becaue in max you first have to transform the bipped bones into max bones to export to vns file

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

yes they can jiggle the bossom as much as you want .But for this you can not use the g1 template. So use the G3 or fbx file. For the Rigging/skinning proces it does not matter, you can do this in iclone later.

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

But of course you need a female template for this

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Oh sorry, i have to correct myself, the maya fbx file can be transported direct with the plugin, that is not a bipped file but it has maxbones.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

Ohone thing more, as far as i know there are only plugins for exporting characters for maya 7and max.

As far as plugins go, I know only of the iClone 3ds max plugin available when you become a Premium CCD Member? Is the Maya plugin that you speak of the iClone Standard Character Template (as an fbx file) that comes in the Character Designer's Resource Pack bundled with 3DXchange 4 Pro? Where do you get the iClone Maya plugin?

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

So if you export the fbx from other programsyou have to use 3d exchange to export them as a vns file. For custome made characters(standard and non standard)you better use max an maya, because when you do the skin proces for the first times you have to switch many times between the 3d skin programand iclone. Then the plugin is more preferable then the 3d exchange.

Just checking one last time (b/c something you said gave me pause), is it possible to make a custom made character into an iClone Non-Standard character using only 3ds Max and 3DXchange 4 Pro bundled with the Character Designer's Resource Pack. To reframe the question: Is it possible to make a custom made character into an iClone Non-Standard character without becoming a Premium CCD Member and downloading the iClone Character Template and 3ds Max plugin?

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

For (i)props and unhuman characters you can do this better with 3d exchange programbecause 3d exchange has a few powerfull functions.

Can you use any of the powerful functions of 3dXchange to load your newly created "custom mesh" Non-Standard character with animations and other goodies?

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

With the fbx file i prefer3d exchange, becaue in max you first have to transform the bipped bones into max bones to export to vns file

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

Oh sorry, i have to correct myself, the maya fbx file can be transported direct with the plugin, that is not a bipped file but it has maxbones.

Now, I'm lost again. I don't understand what you're saying. I thought you replace the 3ds max biped rig of your custom character (if there is one) with iClone's RL bones. So why do you need max bones at all? And again, what Maya plugin?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

yes they can jiggle the bossom as much as you want .Butfor this you can not use the g1 template. So use theG3 or fbx file. For the Rigging/skinning proces it does not matter, you can do this in iclone later.

You only mean rigging and skinning the bosom in iClone, right? Just the bosom?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

But of course you need a female template for this

Where can the female template be found? Is it in the Character Designer's Resource Pack bundled with 3DXchange 4 Pro? Or, is it only available to Premium CCD Members who download the Character Template?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

...But of course there are tricks to more easy rig your character. But that was not the question.

Wil

What are the tricks?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

Hi,

qdai (4/27/2010)

I am confused. Excuse me for being thick; but, I thought grabiller had successfully used 3dxchange and Maya and the fbx file format to create a STANDARD iClone character from a completely custom character mesh. That is, after all what we were talking about.
Now, it appears grabiller just used Maya and 3dxchange and the fbx format to alter a standard iClone character. This is soooooooooooo, not what we were talking about.

No,

'he' has used the 'Character_Base_for_Maya.fbx' and 'Old_Tribesman.fbx' that come with the character design resource pack for 3DSXchange to check if 3DXchange is really able to export 'Standard Characters' for iClone from such FBX files ( tribesman being a complete customized character that can be exported as a standard iClone character ).

Indeed it works.

Wich means that, theoretically, anyone is able to create a complete customized standard character from iClone from any 3d application able to handle FBX files.

In practice, this seems to be a little less straight-forward. It has been done with Max and Maya, but as both have iClone plugin, people using Max and Maya have no reason to use 3DXchange for this.

For other softwares, afaik, it doesn't work, because aside the fact you have to create the correct skinning, bones hierarchy, connection sets, etc.. you have to export specific informations in the FBX file for 3DXchange to 'understand' that you are trying to create a 'Standard Character'. Mainly, the selection sets wich describe the connection points. I've been unable to do that, so far, with the native FBX exporter that comes with Softimage|XSI, for instance.

So, at the end, we have :

- 3DXchange wich is able to export 'Standard Characters' for iClone but, afaik, only from Max and Maya FBX generated files..

- Max and Maya plugins to create 'Standard Characters'.

The ability to export standard characters from 3DXchange is useless if we have to use only Max or Maya. Better use the Max and Maya plugins.

Nonetheless, the fact that 3DXchange has the ability to export 'Standard Characters' means there is an intention from RL to allow the use of softwares other than Max and Maya to create content including 'Standard Characters'. So this is promising.

But again, the problem is in the generated FBX file itself.

I guess as soon as one will be able to export a compatible FBX file from Blender, Lightwave, Softimage, or any non-Max/non-Maya software then the problem will be solved.

It would be interresting to hear someone from Reallusion about this issue.

Cheers,
Guy.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/28/2010)

For other softwares, afaik, it doesn't work, because aside the fact you have to create the correct skinning, bones hierarchy, connection sets, etc.. you have to export specific informations in the FBX file for 3DXchange to 'understand' that you are trying to create a 'Standard Character'. Mainly, the selection sets wich describe the connection points. I've been unable to do that, so far, with the native FBX exporter that comes with Softimage|XSI, for instance.

So, at the end, we have :

- 3DXchange wich is able to export 'Standard Characters' for iClone but, afaik, only from Max and Maya FBX generated files..

- Max and Maya plugins to create 'Standard Characters'.

The ability to export standard characters from 3DXchange is useless if we have to use only Max or Maya. Better use the Max and Maya plugins.

But again, the problem is in the generated FBX file itself.

I guess as soon as one will be able to export a compatible FBX file from Blender, Lightwave, Softimage, or any non-Max/non-Maya software then the problem will be solved.

Cheers,
Guy.

But, if you could live with a Non-Standard Character...you could import the iClone Standard Character Template in fbx format (included with the Character Designer's Resource Pack bundled with 3DXchange 4 Pro) into XSI, keeping the rig (RL bones) and replacing the mesh with your custom mesh, and skinning then mesh to the RL bones, then exporting the new Non-Standard Character in fbx format, and finally importing this file into 3dXchange to convert to vns format???????? Right?

Now, this Non-Standard Character would not be able to exchange body parts with iClone's native Standard characters. But, if you are designing a completely custom character you won't expect it to have the same vertex/poly count and placement, numbering, etc. as iClone's standard characters.

However, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to use the body exchange feature of iClone, I think, if they design a solution whereby you can make "CUSTOM" body parts (heads, upper, lower, etc.) for your "CUSTOM" Character. We'll see if they implement something like this.

This Non-Standard Character would also not be able to use the facial animation and lip sync features of iClone. I believe that iClone uses bone animation for facial (puppeteer) and lip sync animation; but, I am not sure. If this is true, it should be possible for them to provide their customers with the RL face rig. Then, in theory, it should be a matter of rigging your "CUSTOM" face the proper way (ie. eyebrow bones skinned to the eyebrow area of your custom mesh, jaw to jaw, etc.). If it works for the body it should work for the face? But I am guessing, I am not as familiar with facial bone rigs as I am with using morph targets for facial animation.

If they use morph targets, there should be a way to map the vertices of your custom mesh to a mask-like control rig, yes?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

My guess is that RL would like it if it's customers could one day make shorts and full length films that could be entered in festivals... and not always be relegated to only pre-vis quality. This will not happen with the cookie cutter proprietary approach they seem to take now.

This is a shame because, at the moment, ONLY iClone (with it's low resolution 3d models, rt renders, particles/effects, and included animation clips) offers the 3D novice the ability to as quickly and inexpensively tell a story. In this respect, iClone is magical.

But, characters are key to telling a good visual story. Characters will be the thing storytellers will most want to personalize. Movie making is about storytelling and storytelling is about characters. Unique, individual, one-of-a-kind characters! The sooner iClone discovers this and empowers it's customers with the tools to EASILY utilize all the wonderful features (motions and facial animation) of iClone with their OWN, PERSONAL, CUSTOM characters, the sooner iClone will devour market share!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. The sooner iClone discovers this and empowers it's customers with the tools to EASILY utilize all the wonderful features (motions and facial animation) of iClone with their OWN, PERSONAL, CUSTOM characters, the sooner iClone will devour market share!

Hey,

you are not very fair with Reallusion because you can already create your own completly customized characters ( including standards ) granted you use Max or Maya and the Reallusion plugins !

Yet the fact they released 3DXchange shows the intent to open even more this possibility to other softwares.

Don't worry, I think they are smart enough to have discovered this a long time ago ;)

Cheers,
Guy.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/28/2010)

Sure, albeit in this case I won't need RL bones, I would use XSI bones wich I'm more familiar with.

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. Now, this Non-Standard Character would not be able to exchange body parts with iClone's native Standard characters. But, if you are designing a completely custom character you won't expect it to have the same vertex/poly count and placement, numbering, etc. as iClone's standard characters.

I think this is where you are wrong. Designing your complete custom character does not mean it cannot become a 'Standard Character' usable as such in iClone. You just have to respect the connection sets ( and the RL bones of course ), not the all global vertex/polygon count, numbering or ordering.

Take a look at the Old Tribeman. This is a good exemple.

Cheers,
Guy.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

you are not very fair with Reallusion because you can already create your own completly customized characters ( including standards ) granted you use Max or Maya and the Reallusion plugins !

This is the problem ... Iclone pro is $200 ish $150 3Dexchange 3Dmax $3000 who makes that purchase ? It makes no sensenser for that pipeline to be the only way of getting standard characters into Iclone.

Im not having a go at RL but we need a realistic way of doing this ....:)

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/28/2010)

This is the problem ... Iclone pro is $200 ish $150 3Dexchange 3Dmax $3000 who makes that purchase ? ../..

Content developers are supposed to ;)

But I understand your point. Aside from Evolver, I think we have all the tools now with 3DXchange4 to be able to create customized standard characters from FBX.

We just have to solve this 'little' FBX problem..

But, tell me, for those who wont or cant invest in softwares such as Max, Maya, etc.. With wich 3d application in the same price range as iClone are they supposed to create customized content ?

Blender ? What else ?

Cheers,
Guy.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/28/2010)

qdai (4/28/2010)

I am being completely fair. I said, and emphasized (just to make the point!) "EASILY utilize all the wonderful features (motions and facial animation) of iClone with their OWN, PERSONAL, CUSTOM characters". Explain to me how you "EASILY" use your own custom face mesh with iClone's facial animation features (Puppeteer and lipsync)?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Quidam 3, Blender, TrueSpace, Poser or daz ( I think there is a poly reduction plugin ) ..errrr Im sure there is more :) .....

Would it be possible that one day we could do it in Iclone itself ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/28/2010)

Well,

it first depends on what you mean by 'easy', because I guess the 'easiness' of the operation depend on the technical knowledge of the user.

For those who have access to Max/Maya and the Reallusion pluggins, it seems to be very easy to create their 'own', 'personal', 'custom' standard characters ( I not talking about the modeling/texturing/rigging/skinning part ;) but the export part ).

For those who don't, there is the FBX issue that has to be solved. But we are not far from it. I'm sure during the next months a solution will be found.

Which 3d application are you using, btw ?

Cheers,
Guy.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/28/2010)

../.. Would it be possible that one day we could do it in Iclone itself ?

You mean for iClone to become a non-free Blender ?

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Cheers,
Guy.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/28/2010)

qdai (4/28/2010)

Sure, albeit in this case I won't need RL bones, I would use XSI bones wich I'm more familiar with.

I was under the impression that in order to create a Non-Standard Character that could use the Standard Motions supplied with iClone, you must use the RL bones?

Peter Edwards (4/15/2010)

I also assume that the 3ds Max and 3DXchange 4 Pro bundled with the Character Designer's Resource Pack allows you to get around the limitation described below.

Peter Edwards (4/15/2010)

When you use the "Convert To Character" option in 3DXchange4 you are creating a Non-Human Character. If the avatar was exported from 3DS Max with animations then these will belisted in 3DXchange4 in the Modify Panel - Animations. You can play them in 3DXchange and rename them if you wish. These animation will then be available using the Perform functions when exported to iClone4.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. I was under the impression that in order to create a Non-Standard Character that could use the Standard Motions supplied with iClone, you must use the RL bones? ../..

Indeed, you are right. I was thinking about 'Non-Human Characters' actualy ( whose can be human nonetheless ;) )

I'm not interrested in non-standard character. Either standard to benefit of all the standard features, or non-humain to have no limitation.

Cheers,
Guy.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Non standard characters have little interest to me I need lipsync....
I would like to see clonebone been able to be applied to a Tpose mesh simple !:)

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/28/2010)

qdai (4/28/2010)

The Tribeman is not a completely custom character mesh. The tribeman is an iClone Standard Character Template Mesh that was exported to Zbrush, sculped and textured http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKKfyFea-XY, then reimported.

Then I'm guessing, mapping (normal mapping I assume) was used to project the detail, sculpted in zbrush onto the altered (zbrush sculpted by pushing points) Standard iClone Character Mesh. I say this because iClone was not designed to support the high poly sculps that come out of zbrush, it is a real time product.

The point is that pulling and pushing of points does not change the vertex/poly count and seam placement, numbering, etc. of the iClone Standard Character Template. This is why the Tribeman can exchange body parts with native iClone Characters. He is one. His poly count, seams, vertex numbering have not changed.

I am concerned with using custom meshes built from scratch not altering an iClone Standard Character Template Mesh.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/28/2010)

Non standard characters have little interest to me I need lipsync....
I would like to see clonebone been able to be applied to a Tpose mesh simple !:)

Which is why it should be possible for people to use their own totally custom built-from-scratch meshes with all the features of iClone, including facial and lip syn animation. As it stands now, you can ONLY use iClone's head mesh if you want to use facial animation in iClone. AFAIK, you can not use your built-from-scratch head meshes with iClone's facial animation or lip sync.

qdai (4/28/2010)

This Non-Standard Character would also not be able to use the facial animation and lip sync features of iClone. I believe that iClone uses bone animation for facial (puppeteer) and lip sync animation; but, I am not sure. If this is true, it should be possible for them to provide their customers with the RL face rig. Then, in theory, it should be a matter of rigging your "CUSTOM" face the proper way (ie. eyebrow bones skinned to the eyebrow area of your custom mesh, jaw to jaw, etc.). If it works for the body it should work for the face? But I am guessing, I am not as familiar with facial bone rigs as I am with using morph targets for facial animation.

If they use morph targets, there should be a way to map the vertices of your custom mesh to a mask-like control rig, yes?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

Hey qdai,

It seems you are so sure that "it's not possible" that you have decided that "it's not possible".

Well, despite what you think, it's possible. Now, if you don't want to listen, I have no problem with it, you will just miss the opportunity to do what you want because you just believe so hardly that it is simply not possible.

Again, polycount/order/indexes have nothing to do with the fact that a mesh can be 'adopted' by iClone as a 'Standard Character'. ( Take a look at the Firefighter for instance ).

What is important, is the RL bone structure and the connection sets.

Aside from that, and again, we still have to solve the FBX problem.

But with a proper generated FBX file, any 'custom', 'own', 'personal' character can be made and recognized as a 'Standard Character'.

I guess the only way for you to 'believe' that is to show you an exemple.

Right. Let me solve the FBX problem first ;)

Cheers,
Guy.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/28/2010)

Ok, I went back and did some more in-depth research. In one respect you are right. It is possible to model a character (minus the head) from scratch and have it work with the native iClone exchangeable body parts. See the article, Reallusion Developer Series Creating and Exporting Characters, for iClone provided in the hyperlink below by Peter Edwards:

Peter Edwards (4/15/2010)

...To be a Standard iClone character an avatar must meet certain requirements.

They must be rigged with the RL Bone system (not Biped or MAx Bones). They also must have a defined Upper, Lower, Shoes, Face, Hair structure and correctly setup connection points between these parts. You might like to take a look at an older whitepaper that discusses all these requirements. You can find it HERE.

However, there is a caveat. Unless you use iClone's Standard Character Head Mesh, the character you create will not be a Standard iClone character. And it will not be able to use iClone's facial and lip sync animation. If you go to the link above, and pull up the pdf of the article and scroll to pages 5, 6 and 10, it clearly states that the head/Face is the only body part that can not be "explicitly modeled"...you must use the Standard iClone head mesh.

grabiller (4/28/2010)

Again, polycount/order/indexes have nothing to do with the fact that a mesh can be 'adopted' by iClone as a 'Standard Character'. ( Take a look at the Firefighter for instance ).

What is important, is the RL bone structure and the connection sets.

If you go to pages 12-14+ of the article, it explains that, "There must be a specific number of vertices and edges that make up the border between any two body parts." Poly count and vertices do matter, at least at the seams.

grabiller (4/28/2010)

Aside from that, and again, we still have to solve the FBX problem.

But with a proper generated FBX file, any 'custom', 'own', 'personal' character can be made and recognized as a 'Standard Character'.

I guess the only way for you to 'believe' that is to show you an exemple.

Right. Let me solve the FBX problem first ;)

Cheers,
Guy.

I doubt the fbx file is the problem. The mesh itself, if it is totally custom, must follow certain poly/vertex rules, especially at the seams, to create a Standard character. And, if I understand the article correctly, if you don't use iClone's head mesh, your character will not be a Standard iClone character capable of using the facial and lip sync animation features of iClone.

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Qdai,

you are totally right. The fbx is not a problem at all. Reallusion made a very complex head and face mesh to make it possible to let the standard character talk. De polycount from the facemesh can not be changed(iclone software checks this by loading the facemesh), you only can reshape it.

There is only one trick i know to go arround this fact and yes you can use your own face mesh by tricking the iclone software. (see some of my previous videos)

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

And as i said i you can make totally different standard characters by tricking the iclone exporter. But you can not do this with the FBX file. The provided fbx files have head and faces wich match exactly the Iclone needs and format. You are not be able(and ir eally mean it is inpossible) to make a new standard character with a different head then with the RL headbone, cavity and mesh. There are tricks to do it but not with the fbx exporter.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/28/2010)

There is only one trick i knowto go arround thisfact and yes you canuse your own face mesh by tricking the iclone software. (see some of my previous videos)

I'd love to! Where?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/28/2010)

And as i said i you canmake totally different standard characters by tricking the iclone exporter. But you can not do this with the FBX file. The provided fbx files have head and faces wich match exactly the Iclone needs and format. You are not be able(and ir eally mean it is inpossible)to make a new standard character with a different head then with the RL headbone, cavityand mesh. There are tricks to do it but not with the fbx exporter.

So, you must use the Developer iClone 3ds Max plugin instead of 3dXchange?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I do nnot know what can or can not be done so im gona watch n see :)

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

The way to do it is not easy but can be done:

you make the original RL face mesh invisible and not delete it. Put your own facemesh on the character and reline it. You have to make the seam of your facemesh with exactly 24 vertexes and line these up with the 24 vertexes from the neckseam from the upperbody part. Use mesh select modifier and select this 24 vertexes. Call this connect01. Then use the skinmodifier on your own facemesh and select only the headbone. Reline the eyes and mouth. Now the tricky and most difficult part. Make the original mouth visible arround the cavity and make the same part of your new face invisible.You may reshape the mouth parts from both or only one of them, but at the end they have to cover each other one 100% and the vertexes on the edges from invisible to visible have to cover each other also 100%. and both have vertex weight=1/headbone. Use uv unwrap and take care that the covering mouth part is exactly the same shape. You have to textured both visible faceparts with your new face texture.

Now you have a new face with facial expressions. In fact you export with the plugin two facemeshes but you only see the visible parts of both of them.

Wil: so there also tricks for the other bodyparts

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Wow! Unfortunately, you are far more skilled than myself. I will have to wait til they come out with an easier method. Still, I have to take my hat off to you!

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

You mentioned yesterday some tricks to make rigging/skinning a character mesh easier?

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

i have to correct myself again. This new face can talk and will have the original eyes from reallusion. Round the mouth(the part of rl mouth) has facial expression the rest of your own faceof course not.

Maybe this way you will understand that all the facial motions are done in Iclone and not in max or what program ever. That is why you can not do this with the fxbx files, not now and not ever because this happens in Iclone itself.(clever from RL). the imported head do not have this facial expressions, this is done in iclone when the iclone meets the correct facesvertex count . Please correct me when i am wrong

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

You know more than I do.

Does iClone use a face rig or morph targets or a combination of both to do facial and lip sync animation?

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

And of course you can also reshape the original head with props (skinmodifier and headbone). With uv unwrap of both you can textured it as it is one head. But in allcases you need rl original face mesh arround the mouth and eyes to let it act as an standard character.

Tip make props from your new head and put them on the original RL face. Allways use skin modifier with only the head boen otherwise the vertexes of you new face will change from position to the rl face. With the uv unwrap you can do the texturing for both to match.

But keep in mind: allways use the mouthpart from rl (you can reshape it) and the eyes

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

By the way, thanks for sharing your knowledge and ingenious work-arounds.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

Hi,

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. However, there is a caveat. Unless you use iClone's Standard Character Head Mesh, the character you create will not be a Standard iClone character../..

For the head part, you are right, yes.

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. If you go to pages 12-14+ of the article, it explains that, "There must be a specific number of vertices and edges that make up the border between any two body parts." Poly count and vertices do matter, at least at the seams../..

That's why I said :
"What is important, is the RL bone structure and the connection sets."

Connection sets are the lists of vertices at the seams. Only the right count of vertices at each seams is important, not the polygon count. So aside from this restriction, polycount and vertices do not matter, you can have a 10 millions polygons standard character, if you wish.

qdai (4/28/2010)

../.. I doubt the fbx file is the problem ../..

W.VEEKE (4/28/2010)

Qdai, you are totally right. The fbx is not a problem at all ../..

I think there is a misunderstanding here:

My first response in this thread was in reaction to W.VEEKE message:
"If you want to use the standard motions from RL you can only do this in max with the export plugins. You need the G1,G2 or G3 bone structure. In 3d exchange is this not possible"

We know now that, in fact, it is possible with 3DXchange, granted you load a correct FBX file. ( even if you have to write it by hand ).

Then W.VEEKE again:
"../.. You can not export this fbx file(standard character) to iclone by other programs then max and maya by using the RL plugins ../.."
And:
"../.. Maybe RL will come with ,more plugins for other programs ../.."

Regarding the last comment, it is quite clear that they are not interrested to create more plugins for other softwares as I proposed my help for Softimage|XSI and I got a response saying they are not interrested in creating a plugin for it.

Ok, now, regarding the fbx file:

Of course the fbx file is not the problem at all IF YOU ARE USING MAX or MAYA ! Simply because you don't need it, you have the plugins..

So, W.VEEKE, as a content developer, is supposed to have the resources to afford the Max licence, and you, qdai, I don't know wich 3d application you use, but if you use 3ds Max, either the 'evaluation version' or the commercial version, then you already are on the 'easy way' to create you own, personal, custom standard character, and I don't understand why you would bother with 3DXchange.

Now, if you are not using 3ds Max, then, and as W.VEEKE said, again :
"../.. You can not export this fbx file(standard character) to iclone by other programs then max and maya by using the RL plugins ../.."

Then you have the same problem as I have and we are both in the same boat :

The generation of a compatible FBX file ( from any application other than Max/Maya ) *is* the all problem.

Modeling, rigging, skinning, etc.. is not. I already have the iClone standard character with the right RL bones structure, connection sets, etc.. in Softimage|XSI.

The challenge is now to find a way to produce this FBX file that will be understood by 3DXchange as a 'Standard Character'.

Cheers,
Guy.
ps: english is not my native tongue, so sorry if I'm not always making myself very clear.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

if RL have no intention of releasing more pluggins then maybe they could give us a way of developing our own as I want to use characters I have created (with lipsync ) in Iclone and the sad fact is if this is NEVER going to happen then maybe I am going to have to look at another program that would alow me to do that , and in truth I dont really want to do that ..

And to be honest there is only one pluggin that is needed and thats a Blender one ... the rest would be just nice but not needed...:) or what I would like to see a way of using something like clonebone that can be used an o full mesh ...

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/29/2010)

Connection sets are the lists of vertices at the seams. Only the right count of vertices at each seams is important, not the polygon count. So aside from this restriction, polycount and vertices do not matter, you can have a 10 millions polygons standard character, if you wish.

Polygons have vertices at the corners, yes? It would stretch the bounds of reason to have a 10 million polygon model and have to somehow reduce the vertices to, say 24 vertices, at the connection seams. Besides, if you read the article it clearly states that a Standard iClone character should have around 15,000 polys.

iClone uses real time rendering. Models with 10 milliion polygons don't render rt, not in iClone, anyway. In short, polycount does matter, especially if you want to render your animations.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

! :hehe:

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/29/2010)

...Now, if you are not using 3ds Max, then, and as W.VEEKE said, again :
"../.. You can not export this fbx file(standard character) to iclone by other programs then max and maya by using the RL plugins ../.."...

Correct me if I am wrong, but the plugins (the 3ds Max plugin is the only one I am aware of) do not use fbx. The plugin is just that, it allows 3ds max to export a vns file. The plugins export vns files and only 3dXchange uses fbx:

qdai (4/27/2010)

[quote]W.VEEKE (4/27/2010)

...
A
1.Sign up for the Developer Premium CCD Membership.
2.Get the iClone Standard character Template and the 3ds max plug-in.
3.Open the Standard Character Template (I assume it is in .max format) in 3ds max.
4.Delete the Template mesh leaving the RL bones.
5.Size your unique mesh to fit the iClone Standard Character Template bones (or RL bones).
6.Use Skin Modifier to skin your mesh to the RL bones.
7.Use the iClone 3ds Max plug-in to export your TOTALLY CUSTOM CHARACTER to iClone format.
8.You now have: Non-Standard Avatar that can use standard motion files but NO interchangable body parts and NO lipsync.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/29/2010)

...The generation of a compatible FBX file ( from any application other than Max/Maya ) *is* the all problem.

Modeling, rigging, skinning, etc.. is not. I already have the iClone standard character with the right RL bones structure, connection sets, etc.. in Softimage|XSI.

The challenge is now to find a way to produce this FBX file that will be understood by 3DXchange as a 'Standard Character'....

If you have not already, try this:

Get the Character Designer's Resource Pack which comes with 3DXchange 4 Pro. I believe you must have both of these to get things to work.
Use the Standard Character Template that comes in the Character Designer's Resource Pack (I assume it is in fbx format)
Import this fbx file into XSI
Delete Nothing (Keep the bones and the mesh, especially the head)
Just push some points around.
Save
Export as an fbx file (make sure you use a version of fbx that is compatible with 3dXchange Pro 4. If you have an older version of XSI go to the Autodesk website and download the fbx updates.
Export out the slightly altered (remember you just pushed points around) Standard Character in fbx format.
Import this fbx file to 3dXchange Pro 4.
See if it gives you the option to create a Standard Character.
Save to vns format
Import to iClone
Exchange body parts and do lipsync animation.
If this works, you should be able to do more complex alterations to the Character Template.
But, remember, you can never use a built-from-scratch custom head if you want to create a Standard Character that can use puppeteer and facial animation.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/29/2010)

if RL have no intention of releasing more pluggins then maybe they could give us a way of developing our own...

Maybe possible with Python? It would require iClone making some kind of sdk?

bluemidget666 (4/29/2010)

...as I want to use characters I have created (with lipsync ) in Iclone and the sad fact is if this is NEVER going to happen then maybe I am going to have to look at another program that would alow me to do that , and in truth I dont really want to do that ..

I have not found another software package that allows you to so quickly animate characters. And, I have not seen any other package render so quickly. It is a combination of the low poly assets and the included motions that make iClone so attractive. If you do find something that allows truly unique and custom characters to be easily imported, animated (including expression and lip sync), and rendered in real time, please, please, please let us know. ...Did I say "please"? Please!

bluemidget666 (4/29/2010)

And to be honest there is only one pluggin that is needed and thats a Blender one ... the rest would be just nice but not needed...:) or what I would like to see a way of using something like clonebone that can be used an o full mesh ...

I initially thought CloneBone was the way to go. The rig itself is simple (not a lot of parts/bones like G2 and G3?) which makes for simpler skinning. I still have not mastered skinning...prob. never will. And it has a jaw bone. But, there is no way to skin a unified (one piece) mesh to it. Even if you could use CloneBone the way we want to (which would be brilliant), it still would not allow you to animate your character's face with expressions (Puppeteer) or anything but the crudest lip sync (mouth opening and closing). However, if the next iteration of iClone includes morph animation for lipsyc and or a more extensive CloneBone facial rig...well, then, we're on our way!

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I really do not want to move away from Iclone .. I love it but not been able to use my characters in Iclone is more than a little drawback.... But if RL can adapt Evolver characters to be standard characters in Iclone then there must be a way of getting my characters into Iclone with lipsync and face animation ... its just a matter of RL seeing the need I HOPE

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

grabiller (4/29/2010)

The generation of a compatible FBX file ( from any application other than Max/Maya ) *is* the all problem.

Modeling, rigging, skinning, etc.. is not. I already have the iClone standard character with the right RL bones structure, connection sets, etc.. in Softimage|XSI.

The challenge is now to find a way to produce this FBX file that will be understood by 3DXchange as a 'Standard Character'.

Hi Guy ,

FBX= autodesk , and autodesk is > XSI , motion builder , maya , 3dsmax ....

I found this,
I think you know (on sait jamais :P ) .
I total newbie , but if there are a way , I'm sur , you find this .

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Wouldn't it be cool if we could have a one on one with the developers to see what the obstacles are between what we want and what they can deliver:)

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (4/29/2010)

Quick query, Blender...it has a game engine, now...can you recommend it as a machinima tool? What is the animation and rendering situation like...options???

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

Not be sad: With practice you can make everything to a standard character, here i show you a really standard character(build in 1 our). You can change the bodyparts and face.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I carnt say as I have not used it .. but everything I have seen and read about it says its up to doing pretty much awt 3dmax can... the reason I say thats the pluggin we need is coz its free and has a rigging system thats ment to do most of the hard work for you ....

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

What would be the process of rigging a built-from-scratch Non-Standard character wearing a skirt (separate meshes)? Would the skirt be rigged to the same RL bones as the character mesh? What about dynamics?

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Does anyone know if Blender's game engine has a real time renderer?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 16 Years Ago

Hi Sen,

Sen (4/29/2010)

Yep, I already have this SDK, but this is definitely the right place to go when it comes to FBX.

Merci pour ton aide :)

Cheers,
Guy.

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

W.VEEKE (4/29/2010)

Not be sad: With practice you can make everything to a standard character, here i show you a really standard character(build in 1 our). You can change the bodyparts and face.

CUTE (and a little scary):).

When 3dXchange imports an fbx file, does it also import morph target animation and convert that to vns format?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

i think i remember Bigboss on tmuradio saying he found a way to do face pupetering on a non standard character ..... :)

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Hi Blue ,

I am sure BB found a clever and professional way . There is a very simple way to use .
Look at the character jam band . Yes it's a total G3 character but ..... face no G3 or G4 ;)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi Sen

Do you mean to embed the facial exexpressions and animations in the Fxb file before converting to Iavatar ? Could I do this in Xsi as 3dmax expired :crying:

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

No I don't mean this .
jam band 's faces/head are animated props ;) with perform command .

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi Sen

Yeah .. ? wouldnt the props be animated in somthing like 3dmax or Xsi then exported as a Fbx (or the Max pluggin ) with the animations ?

The way I was thinking of getting around the problem was to export from Quidam as a .dea file
Bring into Animeeple apply motion, walk, run, sit, and stuff
Export as .dea with anims,
Bring into Daz studio and create some basic facial animations then expors .Dea and convert to Fxb then bring into 3Dexchange ....

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

You can make animated prop from max (plugin) or other (fbx) or 3dxchange4 (obj....) .

edit : I just see your edit . I talk about non-standard character with facial motion .
I think for a non-human this way is correct if bones are included in head , or if you use a bridge with other sofware in daz studio 3d

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Im gona give it a go ... see how it goes fingers crossed:)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Well that didnt work ! Animeeple wont assign any bones other than Hips and Daz Studio will not read Quidam dae files ....... And if I try animating the converted Dae file in Iclone, Iclone hangs to often to be of any use !!!!

Think im gona take up flash animation:w00t:

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

You write dea , it's not .dae ?
I'am curious ..... to play with this file :Whistling:

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

The Licence wouldnt like it :)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Grrrrrrr I can animate the characters by hand, and get some good results but the second I undo something or click remove animation Iclone just hangs until I have to quit out of the program, this is very frustrating:angry:

Does anyone know of a good (Free would be nice) program that I could animate the fbx file in then bring it into Iclone with perform commands?:)

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

qdai (4/30/2010)

When 3dXchange imports an fbx file, does it also import morph target animation and convert that to vns format?

bluemidget666 (4/30/2010)

i think i remember Bigboss on tmuradio saying he found a way to do face pupetering on a non standard character ..... :)

How, how, how? Face puppeteering is not the same as perform commands.

Sen (5/1/2010)

I am sure BB found a clever and professional way . There is a very simple way to use .
Look at the character jam band . Yes it's a total G3 character but ..... face no G3 or G4 ;)

Can puppeteer be used on jam band characters?

bluemidget666 (5/1/2010)

Hi Sen

Do you mean to embed the facial exexpressions and animations in the Fxb file before converting to Iavatar ? Could I do this in Xsi as 3dmax expired :crying:

The fbx file format does transfer morph animation.

Sen (5/1/2010)

No I don't mean this .
jam band 's faces/head are animated props ;) with perform command .

bluemidget666 (5/1/2010)

Are you using a Daz character? If not, how are you applying facial animation in Daz (Do Quidam characters have facial morph targets or bones)? If you are using a Daz character then this might be your problem. Below you discuss iClone freezing up. This might be because the character is too high poly. iClone characters should have below 20k polys.

Otherwise, why not use the fbx format? I am not sure that the Collada file format (dae) carries morph target info from all programs.

Sen (5/1/2010)

bluemidget666 (5/1/2010)

Working backwards, 3dxchange is the only way I know of to "load" a character with perform commands? 3dXchange 4 Pro accepts fbx files. So you need a program that writes fbx files. Daz Studio with the FBX Exporter is the only inexpensive program I know of that writes fbx files. Blender might have some plugin that writes fbx files. And of course, Blender can do more than Daz Studio can. Carrara and Poser can write files that Daz Studio readily reads. Quidam has a Carrara exporter.

But, can't you animate in Quidam?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

The character is a quidam character that is low poly the lock ups happen when ever I try animating them by hand and also happens with Spore characters.. I think Bigboss on the radio show said he found a way to do face pupatearning on no standard characters (but can not remember which show ) .. FXB files can have embedded animations converted to perform commands once in Iclone..no the jam band can not do face pupeteaaring...

And Quidam has limited animation abilities:)

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Hi ,

you can add perform in IC4 . Make custom motion , save , open aml script editor , make your own aml file for your iavatar .
For a non-human character , you can make facial motion in IC4 if facial bones are included
For a non-standard character , you can make facial motion , if the head is a prop like the girl jam band , propably existing another way by max .....

DAZ character who included morph can be exported with fbx exporter and recognize in max with the morpher ,and you can make all the facial expression .

Polycount character isn't a restriction (100 000 no :P , 30000 yes) , that depends on the project . All the DAZ studio character haven't a high polycount .

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (5/2/2010)

Do you have any ideas what the problem is that locks up iClone...the rig, the mesh, or just the fact that it is not a native iClone character? Could it be the naming conventions of the rig you import being different than the iClone naming conventions?

Thanks for the Bigboss lead. I'll follow this as far as I can.

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Hi ,

sorry , but if the question is for me , I don't understand ???? (french user ) .
Quidam character works fine in Iclone 4 as non-human character .

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Sen (5/2/2010)

I'll have to learn how to use the aml editor.

Can iClone handle more complex facial rigs than just jaw bones? Does iClone use natively facial bone rigs or morph targets or both for puppeteer and lip sync?

Can these facial expressions brought into iClone as motion commands be flexible. For example, can you dial up or down the strength of a smile?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I am not sure why the lock ups happen .. ok I am not using a brilliant computer but the lock ups happen with nothing else but a low poly character in the scene .. but it happens if I try the same animation techniques with standard characters .... its so xxxxxx annoying as I actually like to animate in a stop motion style ..............

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

Sound like a problem with your computer or with your install.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

The Problem seems to be if I animate in pixel mode and test the animation too much .. I am doing it now in quick mode and so far no hang ups so fingers crossed :)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I installed the Nvidia GeForce GTX 260

it that a Graphics card .. Im using a Laptop :crying: but seems I have sorted it for now :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7LRF4mLDJk

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Sen (5/2/2010)

......For a non-standard character , you can make facial motion , if the head is a prop like the girl jam band , propably existing another way by max .....

Hi ,

I supplement by saying that it is possible to add a facial animation starting from max, on a non-standard character .

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

HI Sen

I am doing most of the animation within Iclone and getting some good (ish) results, the facial expressions are a bbit limited but I get total control on how the characters move and walk .. its fun but I have always been a fan of stopmotion :D

By Sen - 16 Years Ago

Hi Blue ,

you talk about your quidam character ? It's a non-human character , no .

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi Sen

Yeah its just a converted Quidam character

By qdai - 16 Years Ago

OK, I finally found the answer to the question I asked several times. Morph animations (like facial expression morphs) do NOT transfer via fbx (Daz or Max) to 3dXchange4>iClone4. I assume iClone 4 just ignores them.

So, forget doing lip sync in DazStudio and transfering to iClone through 3dXchange.

If anyone has successfully used Daz characters lip syncing in iClone please correct me!

By mjordy - 15 Years Ago

If I were you, i would not go through 3dexchange,just try going from 3d Max(assuming you're converting a rigged/animated model in 3d Max first then uploading to Iclone4. In my case I don't know if Reallusion recommends a plugin for TrueSpace7.6?