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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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Hi,
The new update has changed the way the sliders lay out in CC3.
Previously to make sure i wasn't using any purchased sliders to create character to sell on the marketplace "without' using a paid slider so there would be no derivatives it was as simple as untick "show sub items"
Now doing that, nothing shows.
When opening up the tabs, we now have General, and multiple new folders.
My assumption is that the General tab is the original default reallusion base morph sliders. Is this correct?
Which ones are the sliders from the Essential Morphs and Skins pack?
Also if I was to purchase the skingen premium and possibly the 4in1 pack. How will those sliders be displayed? It is mentioned that the ultimate morph sliders will merge into the default structure as a core to native morphs. BUT.... that isn't the case. They aren't native morphs. And this looks to me to be a disaster for content creators.
Can I get some clarification for this, please? If they do indeed merge with the default structure. I would very much like to say that this needs to be rectified and any purchased content needs to be displayed separately from the default content.
This, from initial inspection seems to be a big issue for developers.
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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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Ok i have purchased the 4 in 1 skingen pack and the morphs do indeed just get merged into the same categories. There is no Essential Morphs Category anymore either.
I've uninstalled all paid packs and re installed them 1 by one to demonstrate.
No Installs Hand Finger (Default)
No installs - Hand General
Essential Morphs - Hand Finger
Essential Morphs - Hand General
Ultimate Morphs - Hand Finger
Ultimate Morphs - Hand General
As you can see, all "PAID" packs merge into the "DEFAULT" slider folders. This is all well and good for the general user, who does not create content to sell in the marketplace. But for users who are both content creators and users, this is just a horrendous layout imo. Is there a way to be able to differentiate what packs the morphs belong to? There's no way that I'm going to be able to remember which morphs belong to which packs so i can avoid using certain ones.
Example:
I want to create a character and upload it to the store. With no derivative morph sliders. So basically I want to create the character with just the default sliders. I accidentally add a slider from essential morphs and bake it in, because now there is no way to tell what morphs are what (before there was, essential morphs where in their own folders). I then upload it and then find out that I have used a slider from a purchased pack. Since I've baked the slider in, I cannot undo it. I have to delete that project and start over from scratch. Because I did not want to use a slider from essential morphs.
Obviously i can uninstall the packs through the smart gallery so they are no longer in CC3. But that defeats the purpose of me being a content creator "and" a user. So i am to uninstall and re install and uninstall and re install everytime i want to create something different. Sometimes i may want to create content using the ultimate morphs. We need the ability to determine what morphs are default and what morphs are paid. Merging them all into one was a huge mistake imo.
Previously any default built-in sliders showed when not having the show sub items selected. And the paid items where the sub folders. This is just a mess now.
Is there currently a way to turn on something that will set them into default and paid sliders?
Is there something I'm missing?
Can I please get some clarification on this matter from a Reallusionm Staff member?
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By MilesV - 5 Years Ago
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Yeah, as someone who is wanting to start creating content for the store, this is bad. There should be an option to split purchased content into separate folders or hide them. Or better yet, some kind of streamlined developer mode.
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By NinjaMouse - 5 Years Ago
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Or, even better, why not eliminate the absurd "forced thousands of dollars of morph purchase" for potential customers, and open up the content store to actual sales? At least for full body or head morphs. No customer wants to see a cool morphed character for sale in the store, only to discover that he or she needs to buy thousands of dollars worth of morph packs, because the artist used Essential Morphs to smooth out a shoulder, and Headshot to nudge a nostril a milometer to the left. This means that content artists must intentionally hamstring themselves, and limit themselves to the extremely sparse default morph set included with cc3, just to set up the base on which they will sculpt. As a result, this massively devalues the additional morph packs for content creators, who--as this original poster describes--actually want to eliminate the very presence of these morph packs for fear of ruining their sculpts. Think about that for a second! It would be better for content creators to NEVER buy ANY morph packs, because they can't be used without massively increasing the cost of a single character morph to potential customers. Content creators should be a prime beneficiary of these morph packs--to make creating a sculpting base easier--not regret purchasing them! In the end, this forces unnecessary and time-intensive sculpting work just to get to a sculpting base that could have been attained by using morphs in several of the expensive morph packs. As a content creator, why would I want to buy morph packs I can't use, and why would I not feel frustrated that I must then reproduce those very same morphs in an outside modeling program? The end result is the same character, just more work for me. This policy is a huge turn-off for potential artists to join the RL team.
And as a potential customer of RL store assets, the same issue massively reduces potential sales. I've desired to purchase several face/body morph assets, only to discover I would need to buy several more in order to use them. The result? No purchase. On the other hand, I had no qualms about buying the Ogre and Orc body morphs that required only those stand-alone morph packs. The result? I bought stuff!
I can only offer my own example, but I'm sure most other customers and potential content creators agree, this should change. For me, before I learned about this terrible policy, I created what I think is a very cool "rat-person" full body and head morph. Basically a were-rat. I pushed CC3 to its limit to create a base to work with (later in Blender) using all sorts of morphs from morph packs I bought specifically to help make a solid starting point for my outside sculpting. I had planned a whole series of morphable were-monsters for the RL store, not knowing that these characters would cost potential customers almost a thousand dollars to use, because they would have to buy all those extra packs. When I learned the truth, I stopped making any characters. I knew nobody would buy them. It turns out, I can just use Makehuman--which I previously used prior to coming to CC3--and get the same results, since I have to do most of the work anyway. And Makehuman is free, and the resulting characters are mine to own completely, and can be sold anywhere--not just on the RL store. As a potential content creator, I feel dumb for spending so much money on CC3.
All of this is a shame, because CC3 has so much potential, and I actually love it as a character creator for my personal use. But not as a content creator, for potential sales in the RL store. Make body and head morphs independent of expensive morph pack requirements, and you'll see tons of new characters for your RL store!
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By Peter (RL) - 5 Years Ago
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Thank you for the feedback. I have passed this to the CC team to review. Once I know more I'll update again.
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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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I'd be happy with just a button to toggle on/off paid morph sliders. Like I was able to do before the new update.
I do understand what ninja mouse is saying though. My first few morph characters/packs were created with the essential morphs and skins packs. I've since moved away from doing that and only using base morphs. So people don't need any derivative content (don't need to buy morph packs). It has become more evident that a fair majority of people just don't understand the derivative content model.
I'm happy enough to continue creating just using the base morphs and then using zbrush for additionally morphing/sculpting. But that's impossible to do when all the morph sliders are now merged without me uninstalling all my paid content.
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By 4u2ges - 5 Years Ago
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I would also suggest content analyzer built into Content Uploader, so that meta data can be pulled from selected content and all derivatives listed before the upload.
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By Peter (RL) - 5 Years Ago
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Thank you for the feedback regarding the new morph slider design. We do understand your concerns.
The Character Creator team is looking at this issue urgently and looking at ways to improve the situation for developers. All being well we hope to have the improvements ready by the 3.4 update later in the year. :)
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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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Thank you for the update Peter.
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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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Just another issue i have found also. I've uninstalled the Ultimate morphs and essential morphs with the smart gallery uninstaller. But the morphs are still present also. So this adds more frustration to it, as i need to uninstall and then go in and actually delete everything also...
It's just very frustrating
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By Sunsirray - 5 Years Ago
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Hi Peter (RL),
Was this issue fixed? When I asked the support team about packs and plug-ins I was told that buyers would not need to buy the plug-ins I used. This is what was said to me a little over a week ago. I'm about to purchase some plug-ins based on what I was told by the Reallusion Support Team. I also want to start creating content for sale on the Marketplace and Content Store using these plug-ins mentioned below, but not if buyers will have to purchase the same morph plug-ins that I use.
[Image Removed By Moderator - For Security Reasons Please Don't Post Private Support Information]
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By Peter (RL) - 5 Years Ago
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Hi Sunsirray
If you create any characters for sale that includes content from purchased packs at the Content Store or Marketplace, then the buyer will also need to have this content for it to work without a watermark. This is called derivative content.
For plug-ins, the buyer won't need to have the plug-in used to create the content. For example if you create a character using Headshot, then the buyer will not need the Headshot plug-in to be able to use the character. Likewise If you create custom skin using the SkinGen plug-in, the buyer won't need to have the SkinGen plug-in.
I hope this helps.
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By Colonel_Klink - 5 Years Ago
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I've just tested an uploaded avatar to my marketplace using various morphs from the essentials and other Reallusion morph packs and I'm disappointed that an end-user (purchaser) would need to either own, or have to purchase, the morph packs, which defeats the purpose of morphs being only export, I would have thought. I agree with Slayerazazel, and others, that it limits content creators to the basic morphs, or/and having to purchase 3rd party apps likes of Zbrush to create the awesome characters otherwise created in CC3. From a content creator's point of view I'd like to be able to create characters from the included and paid morph packs in CC3 and be able to put them up on the market place without the purchaser needing to own those extra morph packs. An avatar with baked morphs should not require any other external addons.
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By Slayerazazel - 5 Years Ago
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My only issue is that we cannot distinguish which morphs are from what packs, and which morphs are the default built-in morphs. For the purpose of knowing which morphs you are actually using before uploading a character to the marketplace. WITHOUT needing to uninstall all paid content first. We really need a function (Like there previously was) to turn off/make invisible the paid/purchased sliders.
It's a feature that WAS there before the new 3.3 updates. And if it was previously there. How hard is it to put it back? (The button is still there, but it does absolutely nothing now)
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By Colonel_Klink - 5 Years Ago
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I agree with you there Slayerazazel. It was much easier to turn off the paid morphs in earlier CC3 versions, however as content creators we should be able to utilise all the tools available (especially morphs) to us, knowing that when we put an avatar up on the market place the end-user is getting a ready-to-run product without having the need to purchase anything else. I, and probably a lot of other avatar content creators do our own morphs via Zbrush or other 3rd party sculpting applications, but as I said it defeats the purpose of not being able to use the morphs we have purchased that have an export license. Yes by all means we need to be able to turn off the the 3rd party morphs if we want to to, but the fact remains; why have tools that we are unable to utilise in our content creation endeavors for the marketplace? This issue isn't new, if I recall Alley brought this topic up some years ago. I faced similar problems when I first started avatar creation and withdrew a number of my avatars from the marketplace because of the requirement for end-users needing to buy the morph packs simply for one or two tweaks I had made on those avatars.
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By Sunsirray - 5 Years Ago
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Thank you for letting me know. I was about to purchase the Digital Human Essential 3-in-1 bundle for creating characters to sell in the Marketplace. I see that is not a good idea now.
If I use the Cartoon Character Designer - Toon Figures and Toon Hair to make characters will buyers need to have those packs as well?
And are there any limitations on how many times I can use the sliders in the plug-ins for what I create to sale?
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By LookingGlassGraphics - 5 Years Ago
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Awesome, I came back to this thread wondering about the same issue for CCD. My hope was that if I got the premium Skin Gen Plugin , morphs, etc... I could bake the morphs and merge the layers for the skin to be able to sale my products without having to worry about customers needing to purchase the plugin as well in order to be able to use the products after purchase. I hope I can publish new avatars using these tools without any DRM issues afterwards.
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By LookingGlassGraphics - 5 Years Ago
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Even if the character has the layers merged and baked along with the morphs? I hope that this changes in the near future. I know that Daz has some developer models that can be repurposed for sale if you create certain models like gen 8 dev models, with morphs, etc. So I hope that Reallusion would think about allowing CCD to be able to create unique characters using plugins they themselves have purchased. I hope they provide CCDs an option to resale custom avatars using these plugins that's similar to purchasing an export license where we are able to create an avatar to be used in games that eventually get sold anyway... the game that is. Customers would still be able to use an avatar, if it's in a game, that uses these plugins, when the games are sold. Why would it be any different for use in animation? I think there has to be an option for CCDs to at least be able to bake textures and morphs sliders in order to resale custom avatars for customers. If a CCD is able to resale the actual program in their stores, like licensed distributers, then there should be an option for developers to be able to sale their creative works in the marketplace as well. I have about 90-95% of the products Reallusion has released in regards to plugins and software but when I can only use a plugin for my own animations or game development it kind of limits CCDs as far as creating avatars for sale on the content stores and in the marketplace. I hope there's a licensing option in the near future that would allow us to sale our creations in this community without any backlash or the need for customers to buy $100s worth of plugins just to buy an avatar. At least give the developer an option to purchase any additional licensing to redistribute their creations. I think this would allow both Reallusion and the developers to be able to better monetize their products.
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By 4u2ges - 4 Years Ago
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Maybe I should not be saying this, lol, but I will. There is a simple way to avoid all those premium sliders passed on to your customers.
* Make your character with whatever sliders you wish. Finish it. Save all custom stuff - cloth, hair, eye, skin.. etc (in case of a custom makeup - bake it).
* Export it as OBJ - Nude in Bind Pose - Full Body
* Start a new project. In case of a male, load any male base of the same generation as your newly created character.
* Export it as OBJ - Nude in Bind Pose - Full Body
* Now Create a Morph Slider selecting your character exported OBJ, but for the key select a base key generated for the second (base character) export.
* Apply saved in step one garments, skin, etc..
Done, your character would not have any derivative dependencies.
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By Archimed Production - 4 Years Ago
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So you're limiting character creators, Peter! You're reducing the number of potential buyers of characters to almost zero! When will you finally remove this limitation with Ultimate Morphs? Isn't it silly to think that a buyer will pay a hundred bucks for this package of yours if the character is worth $ 5 ??
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By Archimed Production - 4 Years Ago
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It looks like the problem is still not resolved
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By Archimed Production - 4 Years Ago
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It looks like the problem is still not resolved
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By Archimed Production - 4 Years Ago
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That is doesnt working https://marketplace.reallusion.com/britney-spears-cc3obj 
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By Slayerazazel - 4 Years Ago
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I would just like to mention that this thread/post was in regards to the issue of not being able to distinguish paid morphs from the default morphs. Which has since been somewhat rectified in the latest patch for character creator. Paid morphs sliders now have a green slider icon.
So the issue has been resolved. I, and I'm sure many other developers appreciate the new update.
If people wish to debate the derivative content issue, then maybe make a new thread for that issue, as this thread was not related to that issue. It was a seperate issue entirely. Which has now been resolved.
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