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By Dorothy Jean - 6 Years Ago
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Hello. I am thinking about investing in a mo-cap suit so I could create motions to sell on the content store. Would I have to purchase the motion live plugin-in in order to do this? Is there a way to just import the FBX file into Iclone after i create it without buying additional plugins?
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By Rampa - 6 Years Ago
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You can actually convert all your motions at once using 3DXchange if they are from the same source, so the bones are identical. BVH or FBX both work for this. See here:
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By Dorothy Jean - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you!!! One question though. If its this easy, What is the point in getting the plugins like motion live and such?
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I go into this at some length elsewhere but let me see if I can sum this up for you, Dorothy.
In either case you will need to use the Axis Neuron software (assuming that is the suit you are buying -- for other suits you still will need to run the software that runs them) in the background. This "serves" the Motion Live plugin if you go that route. Otherwise you just record the motions in the original software. But using ML you can record your motions direct to iClone.
What is the advantage? You can see exactly what you are doing as it is applied to an avatar (this is a greater advantage if your avatar is non-standard, like a giant or non-human), you can have your motions "mirrored" (as if you are looking into a mirror) and you can interact with scenery. For selling motions some of all of this might be helpful, or not as the case may be.
I've done it both ways but if I were making motions for sale I don't think I'd bother at all with the ML or plugin package. Save your money and if you start selling stuff you can always decide later if it will help to have those advantages noted above (but there are also disadvantages as well -- I find it a PITA to record long or multiple sessions, since you can only record during the length of an iClone project. You also can't load up a heavy scene and/or avatars without the mocap slowing down).
I have two suits and have thought about creating dual motions for sale -- that would be something very hard for others to do (but I really don't need another job -- that's why I retired :>).
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By Rampa - 6 Years Ago
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You would get the plugins for the convenience of capturing directly into iClone. It's faster if your on a production deadline, for instance. Motion live also lets you combine multiple suits, or different hardware together, for multi-person captures.
I think your usage scenario probably would not benefit from the plugin/profiles. But the curve editor might be useful for cleanup.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 6 Years Ago
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Dorothy Jean (12/21/2019)
../.. What is the point in getting the plugins like motion live and such?
To see the result in realtime in your scene.
It is great to create and sell motions but 90% of the time iCloners need specific motions for their shots.
For instance, a doctor enter a patient room, go to the bed, get the medical file, read it for a while, then go sit down near the patient, take his arm, feel the heartbeat..
All while having a conversation with the patient and perhaps with some nurses around.
This kind of actions can't be "guessed" in advance by motions sellers, iCloners must either:
- build the all action from motions parts, which, in this kind of cases, is far from being easy
- or custom mocap the all action.
And for this last option, you have to reconstruct part of your set (a simplified set) in your mocap studio (here at least a bed so the mocap artist can sit down, a file attached to the bed, ..).
And for this to work you need to see the result in your scene, see if the position and height of the bed is right for instance, etc..
And then you can "shoot" your mocap takes while seing the result, in realtime, in your actual scene set and environment.
Then you can combine body mocap with facial expression mocap together in realtime at the same time (for dialogs and acting).
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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For Guy's scenerio to be correct you'd also have to sell the set and/or props. Most of the time this isn't necessary or desirable.
As I said, not really needed for creating and selling motions. But play around and see what works for you.
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By Dorothy Jean - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks for the great info!!! Now I'm interested in the dual motions since u brought it up. LOL but getting two suits would be to spendy. Hmmmm.... i wonder if motion is selling pretty well. Ill have to think about this.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I'll tell you what -- I'll make a couple for you to sell (for nothing, they will be yours) and if you are successful you can decide if you want to try that or not (I really do want to try multiple character capture, but my wife broke her arm a couple of months ago and she just this week has been able to get her arms into a t-position for calibration). You can then judge if:
1) Multiple character captures are really worth it (there will be sync issues I'm sure -- arms may interpenetrate and such) and
2) Whether people really want to buy them.
Give me a week or so after Christmas (we were actually going to try one as Santa and Mrs. Claus but we seem to be running out of time -- why does it take about two years to get to Thanksgiving and then two days to get to Christmas?)
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 6 Years Ago
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Dorothy Jean (12/21/2019)
Thanks for the great info!!! Now I'm interested in the dual motions since u brought it up. LOL but getting two suits would be to spendy. Hmmmm.... i wonder if motion is selling pretty well. Ill have to think about this.
A few advice:
Locomotions:
If you want to sell locomotion motions, you better should think like a game developer and create sets of motions that are usable in realtime with a game character, with all the transitions and blendings.
First because you will probably sell more to the game market (including iCloners who are using iClone for games) than to the movie makers market.
Second it forces you to make usable banks of motions (ie, walking forward, then turning left, stop, all this with correct transitions, no slipping feet, etc..).
Avoid "over acted" motions. Funny walks are rarely usable.
Practicals:
Perhaps a good way to sell motions to movie makers iCloners is to get a Set, a Prop or a Vehicle from the marketplace or the store that sells well and create a bunch of motions related to it. For instance a coffee machine Prop, then create all the motions that is needed to make a coffee with that machine, to wash it, to serve the coffee, etc.. then sell that as a add-on pack for this Prop. A Kitchen set then create cooking motions, etc.. The more a "set" or a "prop" will be usable with the additional "motions packs" the more there are chances it will be used in a movie (for obvious reasons) and so your motions.
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By sonic7 - 6 Years Ago
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This is great information. Creating a totally "custom" motion VS using motion "libraries" has been a constant decision making *dilemma* for me.
I can see the advantages with both approaches ...
If a 'plug and play' approach of interconnecting library 'modules' is *done well* - I would've thought there'd be a market. If they were cleverly thought out to allow for an efficient smooth 'mix & match' approach (without pregnant pauses during transitions) - then they should be appealing. It's a major investment (the suit) - it would need to be well thought through. But if a *large* enough library (covering all bases) was produced, and the price was right - then in the long term you'd expect a return .... Anything that offers *simple* yet *effective* has the best chance of success.
Cross posted with you Rampa - lol...... Yes - I was thinking of 'customizing/adjustments' too ...... I guess the more clever the design (to minimize adjusting) - the more appealing the package (imo).
EDIT: I would say that of all the things Reallusion offers (mainly talking of iClone), ie: Set layout, Camera motion, Compositing of Planes, Character Creation, Lighting, and Animation, - the 'Animation' is the hardest most time consuming aspect (for me and no doubt many others). That's the aspect a 'clever' approach can overcome. (That, plus 'basic walking' without skating - things that *should* be a breeze even to a relative novice like me - imo).
Anything that gets a novice user up and running quickly and easily has to be a winner. Many a 'would-be' story teller/creator has no doubt given up because of not getting results they're chasing. *If* every iClone purchaser did get results - this forum would be packed with thousands of users swapping notes imo.
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By Rampa - 6 Years Ago
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The pack of motions based around a prop or set seems unique and cool. Maybe not a very interesting for games idea here, but motions to allow a character to navigate a kitchen and do kitchen things is a kind of scenario a movie maker might need. It's a bit tricky to create and animate.
Of course we have the motion layer in iClone to adjust motions as needed. So if the basics of navigating a kitchen and preparing a meal were all there, a user could customize the motions as they need. Having a framework goes a long ways.
You can probably think of more interesting scenarios! ;)
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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There is a shortage of motions usable for everyday scenes that are not fighting or dancing.
Gestures would be something. It would need to be modular so that you can string short motions together. There are dialog motions for iClone, but they are longer and you need to cut them up for them to be usable with regards to timing.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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All good ideas about motions -- I hope Dorothy can use some of them and create things that will sell.
I agree that animation is one of the hardest parts for any beginner to handle. It's easy to buy a great looking set or prop, making a fantastic avatar is child's play nowadays, and there is no end to the clothing and accessories available. iClone makes lighting a breeze, and has all the tools in place for animation. But animating an avatar is a real skill that takes some amount of talent.
Unfortunately as many motions as I have bought (and I have thousands of them) and around 90% of the time I either don't have what I want or the effort to tweak something into something I want is just way too great. I find putting on the PN suit (takes less than 10 minutes) and recording what I need is the answer, but obviously that is not something everyone wants or can afford.
I will say that advances are being made in doing mocap with just video, and it's possible in a few years nearly everyone will have a fairly easy way of capturing just about anything they need quickly and fairly cheaply. But I probably won't be alive then.
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By sonic7 - 6 Years Ago
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Yes, doing 'live' is definitely the ultimate approach. Cost is the big obstacle for the likes of me. Learning 'manual' traditional animation is not an ideal solution for 'aged' users.....
*If* affordable hardware is available when needed - great. Otherwise I guess it's either 'wait' (if you can) or use existing libraries.
Personally, I'm hoping for a miraculous cost breakthrough by the time I reach the animation stage ....
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Assuming you have a smart phone (and nowadays who doesn't) that phone capture thingee looks very promising. It's a yearly (or monthly) fee, but for folks who wouldn't use it too much it seems reasonable. IIRC (and I'm old so I may not) right now it didn't work with iClone but at least one user here is trying to communicate with the devs to get it working (my gut tells me it ought to be workable but since I don't need it I didn't spend much time really checking it out).
I wish the yearly fee was a little more reasonable for people but it's a definite thing to keep an eye on.
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By sonic7 - 6 Years Ago
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Interesting find Mike .... It *seems* that it requires phone usage (with their app), but I can't determine whether the 'uploads' are from *live* recordings and/or recorded video sessions ...... They have a 'free' 10 minutes/month option - I guess that's based on the *number crunching* of 'actual' video running time processed.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Yeah, I don't want to get too OT here for Dorothy (although I think she has enough info now) but you could always test this out with their free offering (it seems to me I signed up in order to download some samples but, again, I don't really remember the deets too much as my interest level was very low -- while in life I'm interested in almost everything I need to start cutting down what I can spend time on and this clearly isn't anything I need).
You might do a forum search and see if you can find the thread and/or the user who was really interested in this and perhaps even get together with him so see what possibilities it could have in iClone. Whether this particular thing is workable or not, I see that down the road in a few years EVERYONE will have some sort of mocap solution.
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By sonic7 - 6 Years Ago
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You're right - this is Dorothy's thread - hope we haven't confused her .....
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 6 Years Ago
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sonic7 (12/21/2019)
Yes, doing 'live' is definitely the ultimate approach. Cost is the big obstacle for the likes of me. Learning 'manual' traditional animation is not an ideal solution for 'aged' users.....
*If* affordable hardware is available when needed - great. Otherwise I guess it's either 'wait' (if you can) or use existing libraries.
Personally, I'm hoping for a miraculous cost breakthrough by the time I reach the animation stage ....
I agree cost is an issue, me too I'm waiting for the opportunity to finalize my setup with 2x full Neuron 32x sensors suits (with hands) and the iPhone profile for Motion Live, this is all I am missing now, I have everything else.
But I'm afraid - or fortunately - the miraculous cost breakthrough you are hopping for has, in fact, already happened a few years ago. Imagine, before Perception Neuron, Rokoko, etc.. mocap systems were (and still are) an order of magnitude more expensive than what we have access to nowadays. It may be not exactly the same quality and pros and cons but with a bit of elbow grease (cleaning the mocap result, it all comes down to that) we can get quite good results for a fraction of the price of what was available then.
The mocap suits appear to be the most expensive stuff to add to the iClone ecosystem but if you add-up the price of all the motion packs you could buy for iClone (and as Kelley said, even so you have it all, 90% of the time you need something that is missing anyway) I'm not sure the investment would feel cheaper or even greater. To me, investing in, say, a full 32x sensors Neuron mocap suit is still quite cheap compared to what it gives access too. It is a "opening doors to new horizons" kind of tools. Priceless.
One true benefit of some motion packs though (hint @Dorothy) is to get motions you couldn't even produce yourself (or you would have to hire someone to do it) with a motion capture suit. Some kind of dances (if you are not a dancer yourself), martial arts moves (if you are not in martial arts that is), dangerous stunts, etc.. all kinds of specific moves you can't produce yourself or someone close to you.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Guy,
It's that last you said that causes me to still buy motion packs -- at my age (and my wife's) we can't do much more than what typical old folks can do (although we are both trained dancers). So I get the "action" packs because even when younger it's doubtful I could have done that kind of stuff. Combined with what we *can* do it seems to be most all I need (I still need to try capturing both of us at the same time -- we are *just* about healthy enough to try that :>).
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By Dorothy Jean - 6 Years Ago
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Great stuff guys!!!! This all helps alot. Thank you all!
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By sonic7 - 6 Years Ago
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I do think there's a market for motion packs *if* done cleverly. If I were considering what Dorothy's contemplating (which I'm not) - I'd target absolute *ease of use* (for new entrants into animation). If done well, so as to give 'quick results' to new users - that could mean the difference between users 'staying and enjoying' VS 'leaving in frustration'. How - I'm not sure. Other creators have used 'linking' processes before. I *get it* that the best animation still requires the hard yards of tweaking & curve-editor surgery etc. But a *fun* quick modular approach should surely have a market for users who want to get on with the story telling. But could be wrong too .....
(Granted, 'Storytelling' / 'Films' - is only ONE aspect).
Maybe Dorothy could inqire with Reallusion - to get some feedback on how well Motion Packs 'sell' in general?
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By Haratio - 5 Years Ago
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Well this post is a bit old. I hope you got off the ground with what you were working on. I am working on Game Development and I think about 80% of what I need for animation can be bought in the Sword/Shield/Magic/martial arts/Assassin move packs. I can make any talking, animations with an iPhone 10 now. I'm not sure about syncing moves between 2 combatants, of if I need to. If I do turn based combat, that shouldn't be 2 hard, IE  one avatar swings a sword, the other blocks, or gets hit and flinches, or falls down if its a fatal hit.
Real time combat may be harder.
There are Tutorials that I am learning for the Unreal4 engine that show that stuff though, so hopefully I am not going to run into that issue. I do agree that I think there may, or could be a market for the movements, but I think you might look into making custom animations for people who dont want to make them. IDK.
Any way I hope you got to do something, or at least learned more about this stuff.
I am modeling weapons, and learning to make hair and outfits, to hopefully put on the Content store, and or Market place. I am a decent modeler in Blender. CC3 is child's play with Avatars now as Mike Kelly said. Now with Headshot, Anyone can make Anyone if you have a decent picture. I do wonder if the clothing, props, and or hair will get this way.
The only draw back is that if anyone can make anything on the computers in the future, then well no one will be able to sell art or skill any longer.
I guess I will have fun playing my own game though, LOL.
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By ViktorCheberachko - 5 Years Ago
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I think your usage scenario probably would not benefit from the plugin/profiles.
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By Dorothy Jean - 5 Years Ago
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ViktorCheberachko (4/14/2020)
I think your usage scenario probably would not benefit from the plugin/profiles.
What question is your response to.
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