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By DesertWalker - 16 Years Ago
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I ran into some videos about movie making on YouTube. I found the following three either inspiring or useful. In this video the presenter talks about writing the script according to the resources that are available. This is relevant to us because no one can have everything s/he wants. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQzhyxdYWLA Here is a video talking about the important role of one's energy (passion) plays in making a movie. Be a little patient, he will get to that part some minutes into it. Again, I think it is relevant to us - starting and finishing a movie is not easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiznR1nRc1o Here is a video that provides a quick recap of filming techniques. It is a high school project but if one wants a quick overview of common techniques, it will do a good job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1japIhKU9I
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By Keith_MPS - 16 Years Ago
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Cool. The guy in the second one was very practical and fun to listen to.
Here's the tutorials from Acceptable TV. They cover all the basics and are pretty funny.
All the tutorials will play in the one video on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OLO9XY/ref=atv_dp_season
Just choose the button "Get this episode with 1-Click FREE"
All of these tutorials can apply to iClone movie making. The video covers: Story Structure Writing Sound Lighting Cinematography Props/Effects Editing Rejection
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By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago
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Hi Looking at this list of tutorials you listed and other posts about why there is only a few good Iclone movies, it occurred to me that maybe we are being a Jack of all trades. Stepping outside of Iclone into traditional film making, if I were to set about making a 10 min short film the first thing I would do is pick my team. Set Designer, Lighting, Scriptwriters, Sound engineers, Well you get the idea, most people are not strong in all departments, I think that’s the secret to making good films... :)
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By Killian - 16 Years Ago
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In my opinion, some of the "secrets" to making decent movies are :- Know your limits; try and push the envelope a little with each project, but don't try and reinvent the wheel if you don't need to. By the same token, don't expect to make something as visually stunning as say Coming Home, or Expedition, or Strife if you only picked up the software a week ago and have 5 mins to study it before trying to make your movie; you'll end up sadly disappointed ;) Do what you're good at, get help for the bits you aren't. If you can do great voices but can't mod to save your life, ask for help. If you can do great camera work but can't write, get a writer; vice versa if you're good behind the keyboard but can't line up a shot to save your life. If you can't get what you need to make a movie work, scale it back or change it (unless that totally compromises your "artistic integrity", of course! :P) Be realistic; if you want it to look and sound right, you're either going to have to a) spend a loooong time on it or b) be an audio/technical wizard or c) both! You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, my dear old mum used to say, but you surely can do the other way round with very little trouble! If you get help for anything, be specific about what you need and when by. If you want VO help, be specific about what format you want and when you want the files back by. Be ready to use and (if necessary, break) all the "standard" conventions of movie making; what works in a film studies book about "optimum positioning" and "golden ratios", etc, doesn't always work for machinima. Be prepared to get creative to fix or avoid problems with sets, animations, lighting, etc. And, above ALL else... have fun and enjoy the process, or it's pointless you indulging in it! That's the biggest secret, after all ;)
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By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago
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Killian is totally right, good films come from film makers who enjoy what they do.;)
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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bluemidget666 (2/25/2010) Hi Looking at this list of tutorials you listed and other posts about why there is only a few good Iclone movies, it occurred to me that maybe we are being a Jack of all trades. Stepping outside of Iclone into traditional film making, if I were to set about making a 10 min short film the first thing I would do is pick my team.
The fun of creating animation is that you don't have to follow the approach of traditional film-making. I have worked with independent animators (as a composer) and it is not unusual for them to combine writing, set design, lighting, and animation. Only music, sound design, and final editing were done by others. Now, personally, I would spend money on good voice talents, but I would find having to deal with a whole team too restricting; it would remind me too much of my day job. You have to know your limitations of course... I came to animation in part because I do have ideas about film music and sound design. However, rather than having the stress of working for hire for a film director, it occurred to me I could try and create the films myself. Animation is ideal for that purpose.
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By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago
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I do agree that animation and Iclone are ideal for solo work. I myself work this way, but there are areas I am better at than others. I do see the point you are making.
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By DesertWalker - 16 Years Ago
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There is a team (or teams) behind every great movie, even for short animated ones. When movie making reaches a certain level, no one has the talent and time to make it alone. That said, not everyone is aspired or committed to do that kind of movies. Some of us only want to make a few animated clips to share with friends and family. Some want to enjoy the process of making a movie alone, just like a poet enjoy writing a poem alone. iClone is ideal for these purposes. Even for some of us who would like to have his or her own team, or be part of a great team someday, iClone is a great way to start. iClone makes it possible for an individual to learn and hone movie making skills without the need for a team. Along the way of learning, one can find out which aspect of movie making appeals to him/her the most, and what type of movies s/he really enjoys making. One will also know and be known to other movie makers with whom s/he can form a team in the future. Learn iClone and, more importantly, learn how to make movies. There are good discussions of iClone skills, animation skills, and even modeling skills in this forum (because it is the iClone forum?:-). There are way too much complaints of how iClone can't do this and can't do that. On the other hand, there are few discussions of movie making skills. Is it possible that this lack of focus on movie making is one of the reasons that iClone movies in general are not making waves out there yet?
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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I wouldn't want to measure the level of creativity or commitment of a filmmaker to the size or even the existence of a team. I have worked with and seen the work of animators who basically worked alone, except as I said before for some aspects. They are probably too edgy or too foreign to ever be shown in the US (too far removed from the Hollywood formula), but that doesn't diminish their value in an artistic and creative sense. If you are interested in artistic freedom, a team can be a burden, unless you are the one calling the shots and not the producer or anybody else with a financial interest. But, of course, to each his own. If you feel the need or urge to be part of a team, go ahead.
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By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago
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Ok I may have been wrong:D
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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bluemidget, I thought about this some more and what is different now is that there are so many resources online that, for instance, most of the modeling that is necessary for set design can be replaced with, for example, items from 3DWarehouse. Otherwise it would be impossible or take a very long time to complete anything. So part of the fun is go scavenging for stuff to use in your movie... I think it is good to have this discussion and talk about film-making in general, regradless of the particular tool used. A while ago I was thinking about setting up a course that would use iClone but concentrate more on the story-telling aspect than on the technical details. As others have pointed out, this is all about film-making and story-telling and the principles of cinema. Like some, I like to learn from books, so I started to buy books I thought would be relevant. One, Cinematic Storytelling, is about how to use the camera effectively. The book provides examples of movies to watch that illustrate a principle, which is yet another avenue for learning...
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By elliespotter - 16 Years Ago
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I enjoyed the three vids highlighted at the start of this thread. The first two particularly highlighted for me the need to be realistic with the resources and skill sets available. In iClone the potential resources are massive of course, so we are in the most part limited by our own skills. But there are limits; for example, the actors movements often look stilted, slow or unnatural in finished videos, but even these can be overcome with effective use of camera angles and using the motion editor in conjunction with the ever expanding library of stock motions to enhance the action. The key question to ask of any finished movie has to be does it achieve what it sets out to? If the director wanted me to learn, laugh, cry or be angry, did I learn, laugh, cry or get angry. Did I even understand what the filmaker was trying to get over? Many of us, in the iClone community, bung up videos on YouTube to demonstrate that we have just learned about DoF, particles or whatever it is this week and we're gonna show off our new knowledge whether you want to know about it or not. Perhaps it is time we concentrated more on the storytelling and a little less on the bells and whistles, and in this spirit I'd like to share one technique that wasn't mentioned in the videos on the OP. Storyboarding. Particularly in iClone, where it is advisable to work with short clips for all sorts of reasons, I find it a tremendous benefit to have a picture of the whole movie beside me to constantly remind me of the context I am working within for that particular scene. I am a rubbish drawer and use stick figures and scribbled annotations but that's good enough to act as my bible for the movie.
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By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago
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Hi I am a former media student and over the last few weeks reading the posts on the forum about actual film making and animation, I have realised what I have forgotten. Right now I am storyboarding my film idea, but also storyboarding how I want props and characters to move. This is something I have not done for Iclone and it is paying off. I am creating a character, with character not just a way of walking selected from a drop down menu. The stock animations just don’t cut it, but are ok as a starting point.
I have picked up books I haven’t read in ages (The Animators Survival Kit, if ya serious about animation you need this book). Iclone and Moviestorm can be used to tell good stories without needing to learn animation too much, but only if the story is good enough to let the audience forgive (suspend disbelieve )the flaws.
Another thing I am finding by following (to a degree) the rules of filmmaking and animating is a new respect for Iclone, as a very capable platform, where the wooden slow jerky animations can be eliminated by not relying on stock motions.
It’s exciting when you realise the limitations of a program were actually your limited understanding of the program...:)
errrrr yeah but how do remove a charaters hand from is head:w00t:
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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I've read somewhere about one director (I forgot which one) who emphasized acting using the face. iClone makes it very easy to add custom facial expressions using the Puppeteering option (or if you are using iClone 3, you can use CT 5 to accomplish pretty much the same). It allows for a very subtle kind of acting that is worth exploring.
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By DesertWalker - 16 Years Ago
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Some examples of the use of green screen, in grand scales. Edit: the link has been moved to the PopVideo forum.
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By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago
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zuijlen (2/27/2010) One, Cinematic Storytelling, is about how to use the camera effectively. The book provides examples of movies to watch that illustrate a principle, which is yet another avenue for learning...
I started reading this yesterday.
Leafing through it for the first time, I was impressed with everything about the book, from its luxurious widescreen format to the many rave reviews from successful Hollywood figures.
I am skeptical that Joe and Jane Sixpack (slang for the average American citizen) would be significantly sensitive to most of the psychological cues which this book claims can be encoded into the camera angles, etc.
If these claims were backed up by scientific tests, it would be quite another matter.
On the other hand, you can impress the bigwigs if you adopt these rules. . .
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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Joe and Jane Sixpack may not conciously know how they are being manipulated and they shouldn't, of course. I never studied film so I couldn't tell you about what studies have been done. I know of one study that investigated the influence of context on a particular shot. I believe it was of a face with a neutral expression. Depending on the shot that comes before, subjects would characterize the face as happy, sad, etc.
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By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago
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zuijlen (3/8/2010) Joe and Jane Sixpack may not conciously know how they are being manipulated and they shouldn't, of course. I never studied film so I couldn't tell you about what studies have been done. I know of one study that investigated the influence of context on a particular shot. I believe it was of a face with a neutral expression. Depending onthe shot thatcomes before, subjects would characterize the face as happy, sad, etc.
OK, see, now in that we have something to talk about, especially if it were verified with the gold standard: a double-blind study.
But the book contains diagrams about how the movement of characters across the screen (up, down, left, right, northwesterly, southeasterly, etc) conveys to the audience differing levels of difficulty in achieving plot goals.
Sorry, I just can't buy that. It's easier to believe that academics need something to do while shuffling around inside their ivory towers.
Grrrrrrrr. Academics. Don't get me started. (Too late: I already started.) :doze:
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By Harper - 16 Years Ago
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Are you saying that because Joe and Jane lunch bucket are dumber than a ham and cheese sandwich they are immune to the techniques used in Citizen Kane? While they might not be able to talk about their feelings they are still capable of being moved and having them.
Hopefully the best artistry is where the audience never knows the secret behind the magician's tricks.
Harper enters stage left, and exits stage right.
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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Paumanok West (3/9/2010) But the book contains diagrams about how the movement of characters across the screen (up, down, left, right, northwesterly, southeasterly, etc) conveys to the audience differing levels of difficulty in achieving plot goals.
Sorry, I just can't buy that. It's easier to believe that academics need something to do while shuffling around inside their ivory towers.
I enjoyed my time at university actually... But you can look it this in another way. Directors that know their craft use a particular shot for a purpose, not just to be fanciful. In the beginning, of course, this was trial and error, but over time certain conventions, or a film language, if you will, developed. If the movie is done well you will not conciously notice it, but you will go in the direction the director (hence the name) wants you to go. If the editing is bad, you will notice it right away. I view all these things as useful information and it was fun to go back to a movie I was working and see what I already had done intiuitively or what I could change to improve. None of this is a recipy for a good movie, but it all helps. I don't have a large arsenal of movies that I have seen to back this up, but maybe in older movies they took more time to think about the use of the camera, because they could rely less on special effects to impress the viewer.
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By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago
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Check out the Story Department. Has loads of good content on script writing and the like including this excellent one titled, 11 Laws of Great StoryTelling. A fine quick read that is just as applicable to the really small screen as it is to the big one.
A book that gave me a good idea of the dynamics audience perspective as well an excellent overview of cinema history and film from non-english speaking countries was the History of Narrative Film. It was very interesting to read about the first days of film where the camera was considered a static eye or audience member sitting in a seat at a performance. It was such a big deal to actually move the camera or to cut an action scene into different views. Totally foriegn ideas at the time. It also does a good job of moving through the evolution of the language of film from Russian montage to the Welles and deep focus/long shot to the French New Wave. It is very extensive (at least in the first half century - modern movies have simple summaries). I found it very enjoyable but it is large and more in the vein of a textbook. I ended up reading it while reading the 5 C's which was a fine co-read.
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By BiggsTrek - 16 Years Ago
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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I can't quite remember where, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself.
I recently read 'Grammar Of The Shot' and 'Grammar Of The Edit' (both by Roy Thompson and Christopher J. Bowen). The first one was pretty good at giving me a broad outline of the concepts (and 'grammar') used in modern film-making. Much of it I was aware of in a vague way, but reading it and having it spelled out to me helped solidify the concepts and make me more focussed while making my own films.
The second one was OK, though it seemed to spend a few too many pages summarising the first book. But it certainly contained some valuable information on editing that, again, I was vaguely aware of, but not thinking of consciously (if that makes any sense).
Now that I know "the rules", I still happily break them, though I do it consciously now, and usually with reason, rather than by mistake (rules are made to be broken, after all!) I also see them being broken in many, many other machinima flicks (and real films, as well). Not that anyone is doing the wrong thing, but they stand out to me more. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, to be honest. lol
Anyway, I think knowing more of "the craft" will help me develop my movies into something a little more polished. May not make them into brilliant masterpieces, but maybe smooth out some of the rough edges.
:cool:
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By animagic - 16 Years Ago
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thebiz.movies (3/12/2010)
Check out the Story Department. Has loads of good content on script writing and the like including this excellent one titled, 11 Laws of Great StoryTelling. A fine quick read that is just as applicable to the really small screen as it is to the big one. I am perusing the various websites about script writing and I actually bought the e-book by the UK writer Phil Gladwin (to have a non-US perspective) and after a while it gets confusing. It also doesn't really give me what I am looking for. So I analysed my uneasiness and realized that to me it is a lot like investment advice: follow these steps to become wealthy / make it in Hollywood. But since I am the one making the film, I think I am looking for something else. It is like in music: are you the composer writing the notes or are you actually making the music? Regardless, of course, this is a very interesting thread and many useful resources have already been brought forward. I will be taking a short course in Narrative Filmmaking in about a week and this discussion has helped me formulate a number of questions.
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By DesertWalker - 16 Years Ago
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Great book reviews and thoughts! I have got to check them out soon. Learning by doing (what I have been doing mostly) can only take one so far.
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