iClone movies vs Moviestorm movies

iClone movies vs Moviestorm movies

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By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Moviestorm film makers, using a package that is a little less advanced than iClone (no HDR, that I noticed, and much better rendering - iClone just looks better), seem to be able to create much better films than iClone film makers.

Saving Grace

Ad Hominem Attack Great camera work, and lighting (OK he used After Effects, but overall it was really good)

The Tormented This one had some nice direction, I thought.

I downloaded Moviestorm and have yet tried it out, but it seems it offers more to do at the start (and without the Standard/Pro nonsense), for example a built-in text and title editor; it just doesn't have the bells and whistles iClone has (iC has better set and character creation).

Aside from The Sojourner series, I haven't seen anything even comparable to what Moviestorm film makers are doing. Why is this? Does MS make it easier than iClone to make a really good film from concept to production?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

In General I agree, I also think Moviestorm film makers are more prolific than Iclone film makers, in respect to how many full films are produced. I think this could be down to the fact that Movistorm is a lesser product than Iclone, so people tend to just get on and make the film with the tools at hand ( I find it hard to think what I cannot do in Iclone).

Iclone film makers tend to produce technically superb films in episodes but is lacking full finished films.(I could be wrong and looking in the wrong place).

Plus I think Moviestorm has 1 way to walk and run and sit for all characters, no facial animation to speak off a very limited set of characters and clothing (without getting into modding) .

Im gona stop there as I think this may be the forums version of ‘The Satanic Verses’

By rgathje - 16 Years Ago

I agree that Moviestorm is easier to use. I actually started with Antics 3D. It was the easiest and I felt the best product on the market at the time but unfortunately, they sold out. I can do more with Moviestorm but it doesn't have all the features and add ins. I use both because I think each one has it's place in my learning process.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Aside from the text editor, iClone is just like moviestorm (with the Pro thing... which kind of puts it off)

That's another reason you probably see more moviestorm movies... because it's free. Anyone can DL it and make a movie right away. Plus the packs I think are a little cheaper.

Yeah iClone's free (kinda) but you can't realy do much movie making with it because there's no useful timeline thing so people just DL moviestorm. I think the people that do have Pro could make movies just as good as the people using MS, they just don't.

I started with MS but for me, I wanted the option to edit textures and all that stuff because along with telling a story, I want the environment to give you meaning and be an experiance as well, that's why I chose iClone.

(So then Dreamcube, where are you epic movies with all the experiance and whatnot)... yeah... character design slows me down... WAY down)

But seriously, this is probably why you see more Moviestorm movies.

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

The reason that the three films mentioned above are so technically good is that the movie makers spent a looooonnnnggggg time honing their "craft", and a loooooonnnggg time getting those films to look and feel how they wanted them (and they are all well respected community members and darned nice folk to boot, but I digress).

Whenever this "X vs Y" debate comes up, I have to sigh...again.

It's all about "horses for courses"; some like the abilities that iClone has over other software, some like other software over iClone; different software suits different people differently.

It boils down to "what does what I want, how I want, with the amount of effort I can/am prepared to put into it/can afford?" If that's iClone, more power to your elbow. If it's other software... well, more power to your elbow again!

There are good and bad things about ALL software used for 3d animation/machinima, etc (I look here, at Short Fuze's site and what used to be flouted on TMO, and there is NEVER a product that everyone who uses it is 100% happy with; we ALL wish that X program allowed us to do X, Y or Z, and there are some users of every platform that aren't happy with what they get given, but it's a fact of life that no program will do everything exactly how we want it... or even at all, sometimes ;)).

But ultimately it's about what you can afford, what you feel comfortable with using yourself and what does what you want it to do. And a hell of a lot of it is time, experimentation and experience with your chosen product.

By Keith_MPS - 16 Years Ago

I agree. I only became aware of these programs a couple months ago. I just looked at the movies made by each and chose MovieStorm because of them. Then I started looking at the features and switched to iClone.

So much of what I want to do involves subtleties in the characters, and facial puppeteering was the defining feature for me.

I don't see this thread as a challenge to Reallusion. I see it as a challenge to writers and directors.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I do not think this is about which is the better program (I think we all know) Its about why would it appear that Movistorm has a community of people that tend to produce better films while Icloners produce technically brilliant looking scenes but not many full films..... (Swooops point maybe ? ):)

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

gnasche (2/22/2010)

I don't see this thread as a challenge to Reallusion. I see it as a challenge to writers and directors.

Exactly.

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

my take is - its all mathematics- more people will use a free tool vs a $300 tool - so yes expect more movies made with MS but...

but let's not mix tools with content - the MS films mentioned above had great scripts and acting - i would hazard to say if they were made in iclone they would be that much better

There are a LOT of good iclone movies

check out Coming Home

Biffle and Shooster

disturbing experience

at the 2010 Mamachinema International film festival last saturday (held in amsterdam and in second life) there were 2 iclone movies aside from the above, that brought the house down - rave responses and inquiries as to what engines were used

what iclone lacks is a starter set ie. characters, movie sets so people can get started after purchasing the product

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi Aknzdude

Sorry but I do not think its the maths, forum members Iclone 137,020, Moviestorm 7,913:)

If the statement 'Moviestorm films are better than Iclone films' is wrong then maybe there is another reason why people think its true.. I think maybe just maybe its because Iclone films are scattered all over the place, whereas Moviestorm films are generally in one place making them easier to find and watch. Just a thought:)

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

blue surely you don't believe forum membership numbers? i would look at active members

also the styatement 'people think MS movies are better' is an opinion that people repeat with no empirical data - kinda like the statement that iclone animation is stiff - when in fact this is true with MS as well -

in my circles the opposite is true, in Second life, a lot of people haven't heard of moviestorm or iclone and think SL is the shizz for movie making, at machnima.com, unless it is made with modern warfare it is crap

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Errrrr are they untrustworthy ........:w00t:

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

:) let's just say there are a few members with multiple accounts, also membership numbers are cumulative, and since the RL website is i believe older than MS, would have more members

it is not perfect but a potential pointer is the number of active members

so unless RL and MS release download/purchase umbers we don't know for sure but it is strongly feasible that more people will download and use a free tool vs a $300 tool

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Well I did think out of 135,000 members only a few tend to post awt :)
when it comes down to which is the best if you have talent and a story you could pick up either and make a good film....

Pity I dont have either:D

By Liquid Rock - 16 Years Ago

lol!

Such a crap! All model just walking like zombies! This app looks like sims at its first level!;)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hay Nooo it takes time and effort to get them to walk like zombies.....

:cool:Vork Sprung Dork Technique, Audi 2000ish

By Illustrator Cathy - 16 Years Ago

LOL ...

I can not believe Killian and Gabe both bit that hook.

Love you guys!

Cathy :hehe:

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

cathy we love a good lively discussion

yeah iclone move like sims that's why babes garden spends his time here rather than at the sims forum coz sims can't do zombies :)

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

If people have an app that allows them to crank out a 100,00 movies a day, there will be a few decent ones among them.

I guess I will have to post my movie now... Does TMUnderground allow 25-minute movies? YouTube doesn't so that's not an option.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

This was not a discussion on the technical merits of each application, but as many have already surmised: the end product and the director/writer's creativity in bringing the characters and film to life.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

But again, I am not talking about which application is better, just the creative flow coming from each community. Moviestorm film makers tend to create better quality films with a lesser product, and iClone film makers make films that look stunning, but lack the visceral quality that Moviestorm films have, that emotion and volume.

I think its because iClone film makers rely on iClone too much. While Moviestorm producers realizing the limitation of thier medium use post-production tools like VisionLab Studio and After Effects, Vegas Pro and Premier Pro, Magic Bullet and Red Giant.

Do iClone film makers use these tools? This what I noticed: they they rely too much on iClone to do all the work, because it can, and don't bother taking their work out of their medium; and then there is the story...I noticed they spend a lot time creating beautiful worlds, costumes, and realistic facial and body gestures .... but where's the story telling to support all this?

there are few movies that I've found that do. But, one already said it: Moviestorm places there films in one place, iClone films are all over the place. So I can't see them all, just the ones that are "out there" in front.

This is why I started the thread.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Actually, YouTube does allow movies over 25min. I have one over 20m. My Micheal Jackson tribute is almost an hour at 52 minutes.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Yeah but how doyou get a movie to be that long without them stopping you? don't uyou have to be a youtube partner?

Oh and there is a place where only iClone movies are.

http://www.cloneclips.com/

Although I have to say, there aren't too many really great ones.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

This is from the YouTube Help:

Getting Started: Video length and size

There are two ways to upload your video: by using our Single File Uploader or the YouTube Uploader (for multiple files). With either of these methods, your videos can be up to 2GB in size and 10 minutes long.

So tell me how to get around it.

As to post-production, I edit my movies outside iClone (Sony Vegas) and also do the sound design and music composition outside iClone. Others have mentioned using video editors as well. Again speaking for myself, I use iClone because it suits me, coming not so much from Machinima, but from, let's say, more conventional 3D animation. I tried MovieStorm, but it didn't appeal to me, I found it very limiting. However, by the end of the day, they are just tools, and I'm sure each can be effective for story-telling, as can be a pencil and paper.

I mentioned story-telling and that is the key and the challenge and that is something that has to come from the film-maker. You got a bunch of tools and then it's up to you to do something with them. Now the tool may not fit your personality and then there is no hope. Over the years I have tried Animation Master and TrueSpace and dropped them both. About 10 years ago, I was introduced to 3d Studio Max 2.5, and, even though it's not a simple program, I loved it and made my first short movie in it.

I can't confrim or deny that "MovieStorm" movies are better than "iClone" movies. It's not an interesting question to me and would take too much time to find out. (It's sort of a Mac versus PC discussion.) I do have to be concerned with my own movies of course and make them as good as I possibly can. It takes time, but I don't mind that.

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

TMUnderground hosts a ton of movies of different engines - iclone, moviestorm, the movies, sims, second life, mech warrior etc..

great community as well - and they do allow movies >10 minutes

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

aknzrdude (2/23/2010)

TMUnderground hosts a ton of movies of different engines - iclone, moviestorm, the movies, sims, second life, mech warrior etc..

great community as well - and they do allow movies >10 minutes

Also has the excellent and underused Iclone channel. I believe Dulci has also put together an Iclone channel on Vimeo (another excellent choice for hosting).

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

In a earlier post I said Iclone users were not as prolific as Moviestorm users, but thinking about it its wrong, Iclone users produce hundreds of clips but most are not telling a story, they are depicting a scene that could go into a movie, or showing a trailer for a movie that’s yet to be mad(I know I do this) or just to experiment with new features.
:
The point is that if we look at Iclone as a movie producing tool then why is there very few posts about script writing and storytelling ect like there would be in a traditional film makers forum.
But hay I may be wrong I like killer robots
PS the same is true of Moviestorm

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/23/2010)
The point is that if we look at Iclone as a movie producing tool then why is there very few posts about script writing and storytelling ect like there would be in a traditional film makers forum.
But hay I may be wrong I like killer robots
PS the same is true of Moviestorm

IMO thats because the MS and Iclone websites are software specific and so you see a lot of software specific technical threads. There are other forums that have some threads that deal more with the scripting and post production elements as well as promotion (ie. TMU) because they are less software specific.

I agree that a better starter package would benefit IClone beginners. I also think that the limitations inherit in a program can actually benefit the storytelling element by creating an environment where movie makers are focused on the story. Then when someone comes along to up the ante in a technical sense, the story element is already there. I'm thinking of The Movies Online in a sense as well as MS.

The limits on the animations themselves can also be useful in that other software either simply accept the animations they are given (which are generally pretty good quality but hard to customize) or figure out a way to film around those limitations. With Iclone we still have a short set of animations that are out of the box or easy to use (especially for a beginner). This would be my personal area for griping and working for improvement. Often we create the movements as best we can but that often leads to some floaty movements. Still, we are as a collective group getting better.

Iclone is the more technical (and technically proficient) of the 2 software and as such a lot of time is spent on the technical side be it lighting and particles or set design. I think there is a increasing interest in storytelling ability as people see not just better Iclone productions but acknowledge productions in other platforms/software (and the quality of the stories) as well.

I'm enjoying this thread. Some good ideas and thoughts.

By elliespotter - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/23/2010)

... Iclone users produce hundreds of clips but most are not telling a story, they are depicting a scene that could go into a movie, or showing a trailer for a movie ... or just to experiment with new features.
...
The point is that if we look at Iclone as a movie producing tool then why is there very few posts about script writing and storytelling ect like there would be in a traditional film makers forum...

Very valid points there, in my opinion. Part of it probably stems from the user base. I imagine most iClone animators are beavering away on little projects in their spare time and are eager to produce a finished product that they can show off in a relatively short time.

Personally, I am limited by both my available kit and resources as well as my lack of experience and talent. So, for example, my latest clip of 45 seconds duration took 12 man hours to animate and the final render took my computer six hours :exclamationmark:

So to create a ninety minute movie (doing the math here, somebody check it please ;) ) would take 1440 man hours animation and production work + 720 computer rendering hours. So ignoring the rendering which can be done overnight over the length of the project, even if one could dedicate four hours a day six days a week that's over a year of dedicated work.

That's serious commitment!

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (2/23/2010)

Yeah but how doyou get a movie to be that long without them stopping you? don't uyou have to be a youtube partner?
zuijlen (2/23/2010)

While off topic, I created my account prior to the original YouTube owners selling their product to Google. At the time I was offered a DIRECTORS ACCOUNT. I signed up (Free), and after doing so got my account elevated to the status Director with unlimited length videos or up to 2 hrs. I'll have to go back a read the e-mail. I used to have a Director icon beneath my Channel name, but Google has since removed it long ago. There were maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of accounts like mine, and Google did a good thing by not slapping our loyalty to the YouTube brand by resetting our accounts back to "Public" with the 10 min limit.

I guess I'm a YouTube veteran; look around at videos created before 2007 and you'll find plenty going over the 10 min limit. I created my account in the summer of 2006. YouTube was sooo very different then, it was very...well personal (read: no commercials or ads popping up in your videos or on your pages).

Oh and there is a place where only iClone movies are.
http://www.cloneclips.com/
Although I have to say, there aren't too many really great ones.

Hence the creation of this thread. I was genuinely surprised that while iClone is superior, the end result often is not.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

[[NOTE: First off, while I was writing this post a lot replies popped up so, most of what I said may no longer be relevant. As for TMUnderground, I never visited it having just learned of it the day I created this topic, today i craeted an account & am watching the 'Disturbing' film.]]

aknzrdude (2/22/2010)

my take is - its all mathematics- more people will use a free tool vs a $300 tool - so yes expect more movies made with MS but...
but let's not mix tools with content - the MS films mentioned above had great scripts and acting - i would hazard to say if they were made in iclone they would be that much better
There are a LOT of good iclone movies
check out Coming Home
Biffle and Shooster
disturbing experience
at the 2010 Mamachinema International film festival last saturday (held in amsterdam and in second life) there were 2 iclone movies aside from the above, that brought the house down - rave responses and inquiries as to what engines were used / what iclone lacks is a starter set ie. characters, movie sets so people can get started after purchasing the product

There is a lot I agree with here. One thing I noticed with iClone is there absolotuley NO STARTER TUTORIAL..at all. Moviestorm has a movie project that goes through the user interface, the directing, the creation of characters, etc...they show how to use the program. Reallusion does not, in neither Standard or Pro. They just give you a bunch of "tutorials" of a guy annotating over another guy moving things around. They don't really tell you what anything is, or what all the menu options are, just what you can do with it. It was a "You can also do this, and when you want do this, click that and move this here" sort of thing.This is what daunted me at first and sent me running to YouTube and the forums.

But with Moviestorm: it's right there, in the Tutorial movie project, a movie made just for the specific purpose of teaching you the program. The hostess even invites you to pause the movies and make the changes she just taught you to do. Go ahead, get Moviestorm, start it and open the Tutorial project, it really is amazing. I'm floored that Reallusion didn't think to do this for iClone. The projects that come with iClone are merely feature promos..

Also, Moviestorm has that great idea: create a Facebook/YouTube community ON THE SITE and showcase the work there, like Stage6 of yesteryears. But iClone has showcases all over the place.

Also, the Biffle series is a great series and shows what can be done with iClone when you have great script and acting. Also, they also use and external editor to enhance their production with transitions and overlays. Whereas, form I've seen many iCloners produce thier entire work within iClone, add maybe a title , but that's it. I liken Moviestorm as an Independant studio and iClone has a big Hollywood studio. iClone Hollywood seems to like getting the big name actors, and fancy locations, and awestruck CGI effects, at the expense of great story. While the Moviestorm Independents without the money, focus on story and character.

Let me tell you something, I noticed while watching Ad Hominen and the Circus Machinima series (Yes, even the "You're an asshole" video) that while the characters never moved a face muscles and had the same walk, and the cellphones sliced through their faces, and there was no grass to speak of - I believed it. It was the direction, cinematography, writing, acting - all that made of for the fact the graphics were, what did one guy "This Sims" and "Second Life" in a stand alone product, or something like that.

I've sad this with regard to the motion picture industry: it doesn't matter how expensive or technically awe-mazing your film is (Avatar is a re-make of Dances With Wolves, Shaka Zulu, and every film about a white guy living with natives to learn about them) - nothing beats a good story, with strong characters. "Hoop Dreams", "Maria Full of Grace" anybody?

Ok I got long winded on this, but as gnasch pointed out clearly this is "a challenge to writers and directors" of iClone to step up. Even Dreamcube017 acknowledged "Although I have to say, there aren't too many really great ones." on CloneClips. Thanks for the insight guys, I hope this does not turn into a flamer war, it was not my intent.

By miguel.lobo - 16 Years Ago

I have been using iClone since version 1.x and also have been messing around with Moviestorm since beta version and they are both good products in their own. Moviestorm simple approach make movie making cool and easy and if used properly with external software allows us to do nice film projects for internet and so, keeping the "you are the director spirit".
iClone stand more like a pro animation package, where areas like facial animation, prop design and lip sync can be used to produce quality movies. Only lacking some upgrade to the final rendering where the depth of field, HDR and so on could use some improvements.
I am currently developing a series with iClone, my first from A to Z, and in my pipeline iClone is used for character animation, sceneries and some light effects, then all footage is introduced to AE for effects, color correction a other goodies and Premiere used for the final montage, audio effects and music. Music production with Acid Pro.
Next month I will have the website of the project up and running with some shorties.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (2/23/2010)

Thanks for clarifying. You know, I signed up ages ago as well (before Google), so I may have a director's account... That would be very helpful, as I find that the number of hits I get on YouTube greatly exceed what I get on Vimeo, for example. I haven't used TMUnderground yet. I think you want to publish somewhere were there is traffic and YouTube has traffic.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I did not change to Director at the time, so no joy here...

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

The problem I have with Youtube (and a cursory check there will bear me out) is that it's the haven of the 1-brain cell.

You only have to check the comments made on Sojourner or Expedition (using Gabe as an example here purely as his is the work I've seen this kind of thing on) to see the lack of interest and depth behind most of the entries on there. If it's not "booms, bangs, explosions, Halo 3/Fallout/Modern Warfare 29, etc, etc", the vast majority of the 1 second consciousness streamers ire is directed at stupid comments dissing the look of the film, the fact it looks like "an old game" or the usual l33t sp34k crud.

This mentality of the old "this is not machinima" elitist crap is why I avoid Youtube and Machinima.com like the plague; it attracts views, yes, but most of the watchers either a) don't bother responding (1000+ views and 4 comments, anyone?) or b) spam the page with meaningless pap better seen dribbling from the mouth of an infant.

In my opinion, if you want useful commentary, don't bother with such places. If you want thousands of views and a sprinkling of comments that wouldn't look out of place on a kindergarten lavatory wall, Youtube is probably your place ;)

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

Well put Killian... Do you find TMUnderground satisfactory?

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

Although my signature banner kind of indicates I'm a little biased in that direction (;)), I honestly do find TMU to be full of insightful commentary (and not all of it comes via comments).

True, a lot of the comments you will get on the movie site may be of the "good job; great work!" type (not that that is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself), but there are some very good, very dedicated film makers who frequent the forums and the site there (some of whom you might find a little familiar from here ;)), all of whom have an insight into the movie making process, and who are very approachable.

Plus, there is a ready resource of music makers, writers, directors and voice artists who tend to gather in that general neighbourhood, all of whom are a veritable cornucopia of ideas, help etc across a wide variety of platforms whose main vision is basically to make good movies in a variety or genres.... and enjoy doing it!

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

@Killien

I think sometimes we forget about the ENTERTAINMENT factor of film. YouTube audiences are not a monolyth. I think you are underestimating how varied and SOPHISTICATED many of its viewers are. Besides, mainstream exposure can be a true testing ground.

For example, if you're presenting a Sci Fi short with impressive sets and effects but little in the way of storyline or character motivation -- well yeah, those who are watching from a set designer's or specal effects' perspective will "geek out" at the textures and particles but a general audience will click away in the flash of an eye - ain't nobody gonna sit through that!

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to post your videos on a "filmmaker only" site but I do believe that we do ourselves a disservice by never presenting our work to "the masses".

...and not for nothing, we can sometimes learn a lot from people with "1 brain cell".

***********************************

Whatever the software or technical prowess, nothing trumps a SOLID SCRIPT.

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

paul good points and thanks for starting this thread - a real good civil and mature discussion

you hit a couple of points on target in my opinion - the lack of a starter tutorial and for that matter the lack of a starter kit that let's newbies go from newbie to movie in a jiffy (hey i might copyright that phrase)

to me this is one reason why you might not see as many iclone movies - it takes a lot more heavy lifting to do one in iclone especially as you want a custom look - my Expedition, Sojourner and The Bard use mostly customized content - it takes time to build the costumes, sets

one more thing- every iclone upgrade includes a ton of features - so many that by the time one understands a few of them, here comes another upgrade

the other point is about the community - when iclone first launched, a few of us banded together to support coolclones - we were able to share our creations, hints, tips -which back then was very important because there were no content packs, no 3rd party content creators yet. but we had no place to put our movies other than you tube. coolclones exists but its traffic is not the way it used to be

on getting attention
now moviestorm is doing a few things right - providing a central place where movies are hosted, and thier management team are always out there interacting with community - i get a ton of twits, facebook entries, email from Matt Kelland, his name, his product are always out there so can garner a ton of mind share. he created a bunch of starter tutorials and announced them at twitter so even me, a non MS user know about them

He also supports movies by promoting them in his twits. In contrast, Realluson based twits promoting movies are far and few and are usually about product promotion

now why do i focus on tweets? coz the who's who of the machinima world are on it -last weekend's machinima festival event drew machinma artists from around the globe, a lot of them learned of the event through twitter or facebook - and many were aware of moviestorm, not as many of iclone

i am not a movie storm user, i find a comfort level with iclone that other engines seem un intuitive -but i do watch a ton of moviestorm movies as well and to this, for every one well made one you also have a lot that are bad

by the way shaka zulu is one of my favorite movies/series -being a fan of period movies that i am

By Capemedia - 16 Years Ago

Wow I've been following this at work but have been unable to comment until now.

I have to agree with a lot of what has been said including the most important thing in any film is a "Story". iClone has been a victim of the many music videos, test clips and show piece videos, which have done nothing for its credibility.

However there have been some outstanding films made, as mentioned above but also found here:-

iClone War and Peace - Heroes of the War - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oqB4WslPQ

iClone movie tribute Rosablanca - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbv41V2TeOc

I think with any animation software you only get out what you put in. As you mentioned above Sisch's "Saving Grace" was made originally in "THe Movies" so when it came to transfer it over to MS she already had her script, but it still took her over 6 months to complete.

We all have jobs and families and I can only be described as a serious hobbyist. I normally release one film a year because it takes me 100's of man hours to make one and that's down to the standards I set myself.

My last piece took me 4 months to make and lasts around 6 minutes.

So yes I agree with a lot that has been said but we are all still learning and trying to improve.

Cape!

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

i have a directors account too (signed on dec 2006) but still limited to 10 minutes but they upped by capacity to 20GB per upload--would rather trade half of that for double the time :(

yes youtube has traffic but you need to have a thick skin and not let everything bother you. I once posted a couple of satire music videos called "Saddam from Iraq" and "Bush Hates Me" - these went back to 2007 and i still get private hate mail from both right wing folks (becuase my user name at youtube is arabic) and saddam symphatizers

now machnima.com is a different animal - and i beleive this is what Killian was referring to in his post - machinima.com posted my videos to thier account and the initial response to both sojourner and the bard was ascerbic and hateful - but later on some of the more open minded people came on and supported it through ratings and comments

zuijlen (2/23/2010)

paul.chatman (2/23/2010)

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

aknzrdude (2/23/2010)1

on getting attention
now moviestorm is doing a few things right - providing a central place where movies are hosted, and thier management team are always out there interacting with community - i get a ton of twits, facebook entries, email from Matt Kelland, his name, his product are always out there so can garner a ton of mind share. he created a bunch of starter tutorials and announced them at twitter so even me, a non MS user know about them

He also supports movies by promoting them in his twits. In contrast, Realluson based twits promoting movies are far and few and are usually about product promotion

now why do i focus on tweets? coz the who's who of the machinima world are on it -last weekend's machinima festival event drew machinma artists from around the globe, a lot of them learned of the event through twitter or facebook - and many were aware of moviestorm, not as many of iclone

i am not a movie storm user, i find a comfort level with iclone that other engines seem un intuitive -but i do watch a ton of moviestorm movies as well and to this, for every one well made one you also have a lot that are bad

The relationship to the Machinima community is an interesting point. Many people who use Iclone have no idea what Machinima is (though in fairness many machinimators have a hard time describing it themselves). Even when RL was the main sponsor of the 2009 machinima festival, hardly a peep was posted in the forums (by RL or by members). This isnt a problem in and of itself. I think a lot of Icloners feel Iclone is animation software and machinima is more video game recordings and the like (more power to em.). Still the neck of the machinima woods that I came from was very interested in telling and featuring stories. I would venture that this relationship helps shape the MS environment a bit as it shaped my background and my hopes for what I want to see in the Iclone future.

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

@The Biz

On YouTube, I have to submit Reallusion's EULA every time one of my videos is monetized. Is it complicated for those who use video game software to acquire commercial rights to their output?

....or do some of the game engines allow you to own your "creations"? That issue ALONE would be a major factor in my exploring that "community".

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

Video game engines vary. The ever popular Source (Half Life 2) engine cannot be used for commercial ventures and therefore has frustrated many a machinimator but I have heard of some that allow profits up to a certain point where there becomes a share with the engine creators (sorry for the lack of specifics at this time). The Movies from Lionhead was also off limits in regards to commercial ventures. The EULA is a big plus for Iclone and MS.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

Teviniii (2/23/2010)

You do own the videos you create with iClone, as all RL content is royalty-free to use in your videos. There are several earler posts on the forum about this issue. From the EULA:

2. Reallusion grants you a non-exclusive Royalty-Free license to display Content within your iClone and/or CrazyTalk movies.
3. You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement.

These output guidelines are also specified:

4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk may not be used in a defamatory, scandalous, illegal,
misleading, or otherwise unlawful manner.

So there are some limitations there...

It has also been stated in the past that you are obligated to use the Reallusion logo. In fact, the oposite is true:

6. The use of any Reallusion, Inc. iClone and/or CrazyTalk logo or trademark must be used in a manner permitted by the logo or trademark owner. This license does not grant you any right to use logos or trademarks. You are permitted to credit the use of Reallusion iClone and/or CrazyTalk within any of your works derived from the Software.

So you may give RL credit, but you don't have to.

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

@ zuijlen

I think you misunderstood my post. I was asking how others navigate through the legalities of video game software NOT Reallusion's. I'm aware of the stipulations of Reallusion's EULA.

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

lol well with thoes stipulations there wont be many South Park type animations made with Iclone:D

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

miguel.lobo (2/23/2010)

I am currently developing a series with iClone, my first from A to Z, and in my pipeline iClone is used for character animation, sceneries and some light effects, then all footage is introduced to AE for effects, color correction a other goodies and Premiere used for the final montage, audio effects and music. Music production with Acid Pro.
Next month I will have the website of the project up and running with some shorties.

Look forward to seeing this. :D;)

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Killian (2/23/2010)

....the vast majority of the 1 second consciousness streamers ire is directed at stupid comments dissing the look of the film, the fact it looks like "an old game" or the usual l33t sp34k crud...

Machinima.com had no business placing those videos on their channel, as they do not fall into the Technically Correct Definition of machinima. Which is why so many dissed the Biffle/Shooster (sp?) series, thinking it too an old school game, of some sort. So placing these vidoes on the channel was a mistake. There has to be a dedicated channel on YouTube for iClone creations, but I couldn't really find any...really.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

thebiz.movies (2/23/2010)

Video game engines vary. The ever popular Source (Half Life 2) engine cannot be used for commercial ventures and therefore has frustrated many a machinimatorbut I have heard of some that allow profits up to a certain point where there becomes a share with the engine creators (sorry for the lack of specifics at this time). The Movies from Lionhead was also off limits in regards to commercial ventures.The EULAis a big plus for Iclone and MS.

OT: This would be the UDK from the creators of the Unreal Engine 1, 2, & 3. Though you have to pay them a minimum license of 50,000$ (upwards to 150,000$) to use their product commercially, and they only license to established developers of software with a clear platform deployment strategy.

So, sorry Joe Blow, in your basement, who wants to create cool UnrealEngine games to sell from your PayPal supported blog: you're assed-out.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Capemedia (2/23/2010)

iClone has been a victim of the many music videos, test clips and show piece videos, which have done nothing for its credibility.

Exactly. This is what I was getting at, because this is mostly of what I saw.

iClone War and Peace - Heroes of the War - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oqB4WslPQ
iClone movie tribute Rosablanca - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbv41V2TeOc

I'll have to check these out

I think with any animation software you only get out what you put in. ... Sisch's "Saving Grace" ... took her over 6 months to complete. .... I normally release one film a year because it takes me 100's of man hours to make one ... My last piece took me 4 months to make and lasts around 6 minutes.

Yeah, but this is how great films are made. Some films take years. A strange and bizarre film called 'Erasurehead' took over a decade to complete. But we use a 'prefab' software product and not a huge studio with hundreds of people on staff - BUT the turn-a-around will be, as you've said: what you put into it.

I am working on a DVD Menu creation tutorial, that is about 31m long. Well, I started it in December of last year, and I'm still working on it - but it's done! Problem is that I just keep going back and changing things - and NOW I decided to have my iClone self host the tutorial behind a desk built using the Virtual Studio (I uploaded a test video for a friend on my YouTube channel EBTL0947, to see what it would like). So while it may take us awhile to get our work published, the important thing is that we are satisfied with our work, and our audience as well.

HEAR THAT, GEORGE LUCAS? There was nothing wrong with the Original Triliogy, we loved it as it was!

Ooops, sorry about that; don't know where that came from..ahem.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Let me add one more to my previous list: Cafe Insomiac

aknzrdude (2/22/2010)

check out Coming Home
Biffle and Shooster
disturbing experience

I've watched Disturbing Experience, and well, it was disturbing. In that it just proved some my points and queries (I'm gonna tear this film 20m apart so you may want to stand back). While it started out intriguing enough, we meet our lady protagonist, or do we? No, we don't. After she gives her few and only lines of dialog, she gets nabbed and then it's just one scene after another of the Killer slaying his victims.

Yes, this was done as a contest entry (and won) for the scariest iClone film, so it fulfilled it's role, in that regard. BUT as a "film" it was missing crucial storytelling elements: who are we rooting for? What is their motivation? What is their goal? Was she the lead? Who was the lead? We know who the antagonist was, the killer. Was he the lead? Why do we hate him? Are we supposed to hate him? Is he killing these people for the same reason the killer in the film "Se7en"? Plus, we meet victim after victim, but aren't given any clue about them. The scene with the young lovers in the van was overshadowed by the long zooming out of the van's interior with it's carefully textured blood spattered walls, almost if this shot was created just to show off the detail that went into creating the van's bloody interior. Even I got hooked on the technical when I realized there was no actual story. Like "how did the animator get the blood to trail behind the body as the killer dragged it across the floor? I even was surprised to learn that there are bloody body parts available as iClone content. Point is: I "Roger Rabbited"* this film.

"Disrurbing Experience" is an example of iClone film makers using the tool to make pretty stuff, but nothing pretty extraordinary. As Teviniii has pointed out: ".. if you're presenting a .. short (film) with impressive sets and effects but little in the way of storyline or character motivation ... (the) general audience will click away ..."

I agree that iClone filmmakers tend to, as thebiz.movies has mentioned, focus on the creation aspect: "Iclone is the more technical ... and as such a lot of time is spent on ... lighting and particles or set design..."

In this regard I believe iCloners take their medium for granted, as opposed to Moviestorm users, who use their medium to fulfil it's potential as a storyteller. This does not mean iClone filmmakers don't realize their medium potential. One artist regularly showcases his work of a Chinese painting (posted on several forums, I forget his username). But he does not appear to me to be a filmmaker, but rather a painter who used iClone to re-visualize his work in a 3D medium. Of course, I could be dead wrong there. ;)

I do believe that there great stories to be told with iClone, we just need to see more of it. However, if users of a lesser product are able to commit to the timeframe and workflow involved, then how much more from a community using a superior product with far reaching potential? Especially since both products can clearly reach the same heights. But one just gets there more often.

Imagine what could be accomplished if Moviestorm writers/directors collaborated with iClone producers/directors...:hehe:

* Roger Rabbited = a term I used in reference to the 1988 film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" where audiences were so awestruck by the technical achievement of the film in making 2D cartoon look completely in place with live action actors, that they completely dismissed the GAWD awful script and storytelling. Really, it was a bad film. Filled with ALL kinds racist and sexually derogatory images. For example: in the original film as shown in theaters and on VHS when the Baby 'toon walks off the set in the first act he walks under a female staffer, he flips the bird up towards her panties just as he is directly under her skirt (!!!). In the scene with Daffy and Donald, Donald can be clearly heard (though mangled by weird speech) calling Daffy "a stupid n*r". This was in theaters and on VHS. And NO! Those scenes have been digitally altered (Just like the giant golden underwater penis in The Little Mermaid) since their discovery, so don't go try and getting the DVD to see it. Get the VHS, instead.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/23/2010)

lol well with thoes stipulations there wont be many South Park type animations made with Iclone:D

I am trying to visualize how this would be possible in iClone 4. If they can do it in Blender3D, then how would it be done in iClone. Not trying to get off topic for this thread, but the comment intrigued me.

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

you can't pick one example and generalize from that- any comment on coming home?

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

aknzrdude (2/24/2010)

you can't pick one example and generalize from that

Agreed; what anyone has to remember is that one man's great movie is another person's intense dislike. Just because a specific movie doesn't titillate your taste buds doesn't mean it's a "bad" movie; it just didn't blow YOUR skirt up. Equally, a technically brilliant film can just as easily let you down because something about it didn't sit well with you (whatever that may be), even if hundreds of people rave about it.

In the field of machinima, there are always going to be naysayers and yeasayers for EVERYTHING; for every in depth review expousing the great things about a film, I can guarantee you'll find someone who didn't like something about it sufficiently enough to label it as a "bad film" (even if they decline to post a comment about it). The difference comes in expressing what it was about a movie you either liked or disliked constructively; even in the most terrible movies, it's very rare to find nothing you liked about it (but there are a few exceptions...).

In my perspective, what matters is not whether you liked the visuals and so forth, but whether the story was well told and you were drawn into it. I've seen 5 minute shorts that do a good job of drawing the viewer in and holding their attention, and I've seen 40+ minute movies that do the same (plus films of every length that just don't do anything for me personally; does this mean they're "bad movies"? No; it just means that I personally didn't enjoy them).

For example, a 10 minute movie with great special effects and visuals but with all the depth of a shallow puddle aren't to my taste. Equally, a long, arty movie could just as easily turn me off if the balance between mood and story isn't right. But that's my personal take on those kinds of movies. I like movies that look great, have decent characters, a good story and go from point A to point B logically. Pointless "eye candy" thrown in for no other reason than "look what I can do" over a thinly disguised (or even just thin) plot with cardboard characters just doesn't do anything for me, yet someone else may love it purely because of the technical skill shown by the director in making it. That doesn't make them wrong, me right or any combination of the two.

"I thought this sequence was wrong because of X,Y or Z plot point/structure/etc" is a personal opinion; it might be a VALID personal opinion, but it's still just an opinion.

"I think that scene A might have been better if you'd have done X.Y and Z" is a constructive comment. The director might not agree with it, but it's a constructive opinion.

It's like this half page of waffle I just wrote;; It's just an opinion. :)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Paul I do not disagree with any of the points you made about Disturbing Experience, but I think you picked an awkward film to dismantle in such away because of the genre. Disturbing Experience is a “Slasher Horror” with no plot or character that focuses totally on the technical quality of the gore, and in that respect it stands up well within that genre. This does not make it a good film but if you look at is a Iclone representation of a “Slasher Film” it works. I just think the nature of this film makes it complicated to whether it’s good or bad unless it’s a criticism of the genre.

But love this thread.....:D

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Killian

Pointless "eye candy" thrown in for no other reason than "look what I can do" over a thinly disguised (or even just thin) plot with cardboard characters just doesn't do anything

Are you talking about rant on "Roger Rabbit" or 'Disturbing Experience'?

aknzrdude

you can't pick one example and generalize from that- any comment on coming home?

Sorry, I had to actually watch Coming Home in order to comment. Plus, I had other stuff I was doing after I watched Disturbing Experiences. Since I am bit long winded when writing I wanted to devote a post to each film separately, aaaand reply to previous posts on other subjects that were brought up.

So, it was fore-seen that some would chastise me for not talking about Coming Home. Also, there are two more I just found out about that, I believe Dreamcube, mentioned to me. So, since I didn't watch Coming Home at the time I wrote about DE, I didn't write about it. Fair enough? ;)

So, first point, Coming Home was done in iClone 3.x - which was very impressive. And it was films like this that impressed upon me the quality of iClone film making. What got me was how this film, just as Ad Hominen or Cafe Insomniac had done with the camera work and atmosphere. OK, I noticed the clear technical differences between this film and those made with iClone 4, but aside from that the whole experience was like watching a old Twilight Zone episode (speaking of the ending, here) and those were very well written, if you recall. I would wonder if that was the inspiration, hm? At any rate, this is exactly why I asked the question in the first place. You can't tell, just looking at the title of a iClone or Moviestorm movie or by it's view count whether it's going to be a good film. But, I watched so many bad iClone films at the start that it was hard trying to sift through it all to get to the good stuff. BUT with Moviestorm the first several I watched were very good; those that I already mentioned.

I don't know how long it took to do Coming Home, but it was very well directed and produced. I also noticed they included a clip of 'Saving Grace', and I think I saw a Windows 95/98 Blue Screen Of Death in one shot...heh heh. Those subtleties made the film really worth watching. Having watched all of the 'Revenge of the Orcs' series, I really loved the direction and cinematography and got to know the Orc characters well. But I felt like I was watching the second chapter of a larger story, since it wasn't made clear why the Orcs were avengeing themselves, and how the humans got to be enslaved by them in the first place. It still is a very good film and I mentioned a such to it's creator, as well as the creators of all the iClone/Moviestorm films I liked (with appropriate ratings applied).

Now, I have not yet watched Clone War and Peace - Heroes of the War nor Rosablanca , so don't chastise me on those, yet.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (2/24/2010)

Disturbing Experience is a “Slasher Horror” with no plot or character that focuses totally on the technical quality of the gore, and in that respect it stands up well within that genre.

Yes, I noted that by mentioning why it was made (for the Scary Film Contest thingie), and you are right - slasher flicks, by nature all have no plot (well not ALL. Halloween and Nightmare on Elm Street actually had plots and great characters) and 2d characters, but they also talk to each other and interact in some way with each other. DE was just scene after scene of gore. It was like....well, a snuff film.

But I loved how they used Video Copilot's Action Essentials blood splatter effects.

So, does anyone know how they did the do that "blood trailing behind the dragging body" effect? Was that a post effect or done in iClone? I should probably ask the director that question, uh?

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

I have seen them described has "Horror Porn" which I think is a good description;)

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (2/24/2010)

Killian

Pointless "eye candy" thrown in for no other reason than "look what I can do" over a thinly disguised (or even just thin) plot with cardboard characters just doesn't do anything

Are you talking about rant on "Roger Rabbit" or 'Disturbing Experience'?

Neither; I was generalising about individual preferences.

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

Hey Paul,
Heres a thread where we tried to compile a list of some of our favorite Iclone productions from 2009 (obviously not all encompassing but its a pretty solid bunch of flicks). Not saying they are all story based. Some of them are excellent visual candy, some have good stories as well.

https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic34846-161-1.aspx

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Teviniii (2/23/2010)

Is it complicated for those who use video game software to acquire commercial rights to their output?

This depends on entirely what you intend on doing with it as it is Intellectual property owned by someone else. However, again, it's there call. Blizzard, i think allows it's users to generate Machinima using the in-game engine for World Of WarCrap (is that the right name I forget), but as to what limits I have no clue. As I mentioned with regard to EpicGames's UnrealEngine UDK, yeah, you better you have the cash and business presence. Let me also say that it's 50,000$ upwards to 350,000$ and not 150,000$ as I mentioned earlier.

By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (2/22/2010)

Well, I agree this is an interesting point, especially combined with the notion suggested later on that perhaps iClone scriptwriter-producers are spoiled by its extra visual power.

However, I don't agree with the premise. I'm just not interested in the story lines of the movies that have been produced in Moviestorm, including the ones you mentioned.

To tell the truth, I'm not real excited about the storylines that have been produced in iClone, either, but I enjoy the superior eye-candy, the good voice work in various productions, and the vastly more imaginative sets.

I think we're now at a stage with mycinema analogous to the dawn of desktop publishing, when people were still turning out blue documents with magenta text--because they could! :hehe:

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Wow pau, what storylines are you interested in then? I have to ask.

Although I do agree that I'm coming from a slightly different viewpoint on things so my intrests vary a bit too. I think a good story line is great, but I really love 3D graphics and eye candy-ish things. I'm one of those people who make everything as bright and shiny as possible just because I can.

You know, this thread is like saying "Microsoft Office writes better word documents than OpenOffice"... really it doesn't really matter. If you're looking for that industry standard (or beyond) look, iClone can more easily produce this than MovieStorm can.

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

I guess it's a matter of sensibilities......

Facial expressions are very important to me. I have never noticed this feature in a Moviestorm clip. Is it an option?

The stiffness that I notice in Moviestorm is about deadpan faces - not just bone movement. At least, in iClone - the possibilities for facial animation exist. If it is also available in Moviestorm, I ain't seen 'em use it yet.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

Teviniii (3/3/2010)

The stiffness that I notice in Moviestorm is about deadpan faces - not just bone movement. At least, in iClone - the possibilities for facial animation exist. If it is also available in Moviestorm, I ain't seen 'em use it yet.

When I looked at MovieStorm some time ago it wasn't available and that was one of the reasons I found it less interesting: it seemed to be lacking in character development.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (3/3/2010)

Wow pau, what storylines are you interested in then? I have to ask.

Complicated question hrheheh..But as it is 3am. I'll have to sleep on this one and get back to you. I have many.....uhm...tastes in films. I could list them, but i may have to issue a warning as many of the films (storylines) I like..are.....heh eheh..well, conversation starters. :D

I list one just for a tease: The Happiness of the Katakuris. Oh and the Original Star Wars Trilogy (NON-Special Edition, thank you)

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

So you like musical horros in classics... well that is a conversation start.

By warlord720 - 16 Years Ago

I'm pretty sure the EULA grants iClone users the right to have fun with the software even though it may not say that in exact words. Are you sure some of you haven't been creative directors in another life... or maybe this life?

Do those of us that use iClone for fun just make "serious" people angry? This is not meant to be flippant but an actual question. It appears that we are dragging down its credibility to "serious" filmmakers.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (3/5/2010)

So you like musical horros in classics... well that is a conversation start.

Almost anything from Troma (my Ultra favorite indy studio)
Poultrygeist: Night of the Chicken Dead
Tromeo and Juliet
Killer Condom
Cheucatown
The Raspberry Reich (though provoking, if you just listen to what they're saying)
The Gingerdead Man
Wizards
Twist
Hard (really good film)
Black Sheep Boy / Queer as F**k [NOT Queer as FOLK, I never watched that dribble. These short film compllations need to be each fully evaluated before being judged, as they have a deeper agenda hidden and not hidden with sexual imagery)
O Fantasma! / Pink Narcissus (two other films with a surreal psychological agendas)
Little Otik
Southland Stories (another film that needs sharp ears, it stars The Rock, and Justin Timberlake - a pseudo-musical)
Visitor Q (the 'milking scene' is classic)
Black Sheep (rabid killer sheep!! baaaahhhh AUUGHH!!)
Hidden Fortress (G. Lucas used as inspiration for Star Wars)
Taboo
Meet the Feebles (great puppet movie! Not for kids!)
Brown Sugar
Donnie Darko
Bad Tastes
Grave of the fireflies
Iron Monkey
Ninja Scroll
Ghost In The Shell
Killer Klowns from Outer Space
ahh I could on. But there are my tastes.

So I like all kinds of stories, but mostly deep characters and rich atmosphere, not really into eye candy. I tend to lean towards B-movies which cheap effects, because they sell the story better than 500$ million CGI and foreign film (with subtitles). Thats my opinion.

I don't think Killer Klowns from Outer Space would be as good if it was made with 700m$ and fancy CGI effects.

My opinion.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

warlord (3/6/2010)

Do those of us that use iClone for fun just make "serious" people angry? This is not meant to be flippant but an actual question. It appears that we are dragging down its credibility to "serious" filmmakers.

What I found is what someone already pointed out, that many iClone filmmakers tend to spend a lot of time creating their characters, designing the props, and making the film look nice...they don't have time to sit down and really hash out a great script....first.

I'm not saying that Moviestorm film makers do (and that iCloners don't), but I do see a lot iClone movies that are, well..."look what I can do" sort of things. I just see that with all that iClone can do, I wondering why haven't any iCloners gotten together to make a bigger film? Now, I don't know if Moviestormers have, but they do collaborate on each other projects.

BTW: The "Pinhead in the Sh*t" film had great camera work for an iC3 film.

In the iClone film "Coming Home" they even sghow a Moviestorm film excert in one scene, so Icloners and Moviestormer have no issue with working with each other or using each other work in each other projects. As I posited earlier it woulkd be great if both camps got together and made a film using both applications.

That may seem stupid, but think of it as a challenge.

By twilit.tera - 16 Years Ago

Okay, newcomer that I am (to iClone and the thread) I'd like to jump in here, though I honestly don't know if what I'm thinking is much of an addition to what's been said...

In reverse order, and I'm not going back to read the posts I'm addressing in this one. I guess you'll know who you are...

Moviestorm also is deluged with music videos. It's nice that there's a description of each video on their page. I tend to skip the MV's unless they are the creation of someone I know, and then it's for personal reasons, to show my support. MS makes it easy to find the sorts of videos you're interested in seeing, and of course, you get familiar with the directors who are putting stuff out that you like.

I am married to the man who came up with Circus Machinima, mentioned quite a bit earlier. (Thank you for the compliment, I'm glad you found the skits believable.) The original intention was to pool the resources of the best comedy directors and create one entire season that could potentially be sold to Cartoon Network or otherwise monetized. The business concept was that of a co-op, with each contributor owning a share of the product. Unfortunately, most of the really brilliant comedy writer/directors were too busy with their own projects to contribute much material. :)

The other problem with that series was that it wasn't truly what he wanted to be doing. It was an idea that he had to keep him occupied until Moviestorm became capable of producing what he really wanted to direct - a horror/drama that he'd been writing and refining for almost 30 years (the first few scenes of which were produced with The Movies before we read the EULA more closely).

Since the Moviestorm beta I have watched him wait on Moviestorm to deliver a software that would accomplish his objectives, and for some time now I've suspected that it simply won't become that product. Not something that will genuinely break into mainstream media, at least outside YouTube. Instead, MS seems more interested in making a casual machinima maker's tool, with releases like GreetingStorm and PhotoStorm. Fun and games, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't what drew us to MS in the first place.

This is why I purchased iClone4 Pro. In spite of all the music videos out there, I saw some technically brilliant clips being produced, and knew that, with sufficient experience and effort, we could finally make the epic films we've kept locked up in script form. We don't have money. We don't have contacts. We have imagination and now we have a genuine animation tool. Oh, and I've recently found myself with a lot of time on my hands, which helps.

Our first film will be The Good Guy. No, it's not an epic, but it's cute, funny, and short (I anticipate a running time of about 15 minutes). It will be excellent training ground for us. And it will have a story.

By warlord720 - 16 Years Ago

I'm curious MR. Chatman... can you see the forest or do all those damn trees keep getting in the way?

By news.newz - 16 Years Ago

why is it that peole who trash iclone don't have any iclone movies to share or show/ perhaps they are projecting thier inability to make movies onto the software

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Whos trash Iclone ? The thread is about why if Iclone is so much better than Moviestorm why does it appear that the Iclone community isn’t creating better films than Moviestorm. I think it’s fair to contribute to the thread even if you have not created or shared a film ... I haven’t

Tera I'm looking forward to see what you produce with Iclone more so as you are a Moviestorm film maker, you and your Hubby could show if Iclone is the better or if theres somat about Moviestorm that makes producing a full film easier (basically you can tell us the pros and cons of each ):)

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

Moviestorm has had the ability to do facial expressions for a while now... it just doesn't do them well. Trying to get a little nuance like an eyequirk or a slight frown is impossible, but if you want to give them a Stepford-like grin, you can. I think most directors use the feature little, relying on their voice actors to convey mood.

Okay - so those Stepfordian expressions are a deal breaker for me. With iClone as an option, Moviestorm is not even a consideration.

....and I'm just shaking my head at some of these stiff as a board movies that some are raving about.

By Killian - 16 Years Ago

Horses for courses; yes, iClone can do a lot, but there's a lot it still CAN'T do... yet.

The usual stuff gets rolled out about every program when someone doesn't like it; stiff animations, lifeless, unrealistic faces, unnecessarily complicated interface, etc, etc have all been vaunted about... guess what? EVERY piece of software someone uses to make a movie with.

Not everyone is going to like every piece of software; some really won't like some software (as has become evident...), but each to their own.

One thing that REALLY infuriates me on anyforum is the "X vs Y" comparison; it's un-needed, causes division where there shouldn't be any and in the vast majority of cases is either a result of plain lack of info or just personal dislike (neither of which is a problem, if you fall into either of those camps).

You don't like certain software? Fine; no-one is forcing you to use it or watch anything made with it. It doesn't mean just because you don't like it that no-one else should, either. Conversely, just because you love something doesn't mean everyone else will.

What DOES annoy me (nay, drives me into a fury!) is the type of attitude prevalent on Machinima.com; the "holier than thou, if it's not made in X, Y or Z it's inferior/isn't machinima/is crap, etc, etc" kind of attitude; the kind I pray to God I never see here or at any other forum I frequent.

And, for the record, I own iClone... I also have Moviestorm and the Movies, and use them for various things as and where I find appropriate. Where does that put me? Firmly in the camp of "I'll use whatever gets the result I want in the way I want it". If that means iClone, great; if it means using the Movies, Moviestorm, Animeeple, Poser, etc, etc, then that's great, too. And the same for anyone here, I trust.

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

"One thing that REALLY infuriates me on anyforum is the "X vs Y" comparison;"

@Killien

Really? Avoid forums then? Maybe. I dunno.

By twilit.tera - 16 Years Ago

Thanks, bluemidget!

I can tell you that the first difference I notice is the learning curve, as mentioned previously. I was able to make my first film in a single afternoon in Moviestorm, using only the base pack. I'm pretty proud of what I accomplished with the primitives and lighting.

In iClone4 I've already started building sets for the Good Guy, and they look wicked compared to anything I could have built in MS, but it's taking longer than it would have there, and I've put it on hold for another week. I want to take the introductory class that Stuckon3d is offering, and I just know I'll end up redoing a lot if I don't hold off til at least that training session, though I'm a pretty self-motivated person who isn't afraid to RTFM.

Tevinii, some of the raves over stiffly acted movies is well-earned, but its coming from people who know the limitations of the software, what is actually pushing the envelope and what is standard fare. These are fine if you're only looking to entertain yourself or a small group of people, but it's no way to break into the mainstream. :)

There are only a few films made exclusively in MS (apart from editing) that I'd say would capture the attention of a more general audience, and they did not rely at all on the acting ability of the puppets.

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

By colour - 16 Years Ago

Hmmmm.....Interesting Thread.

I've mentioned this before:

What eg; iC4 lacks, is a coherent structured simple Project based User Manual (Tutorial), divided into Beginner, Intermediate & Advanced, using the same Project for all 3. Instead of 500 odd pdf pages of unconnected "How tos". That way, a Beginner could construct a simple Storyline from the start. Instead of just producing very short clips of eg; an Actor singing, dancing etc . Which seem to be the majority of iClone Users output. I've seen very few properly constructed & scripted Storylines. Those that I have seen, are mostly by long-time iClone Users.

iC4 is a huge Program & you're only limited by your imagination. However, as it stands, it would take at least year to learn it mostly on a "Trial & Error " basis, before you can produce your Blockbuster Storyline movie.

I see MovieStorm as Windows Moviemaker, iClone as Pinnacle Studio & 3D Max? as Avid Media Composer, Video Editing equivalents.

Maybe iClone has now come of age, where an experienced User could Produce a Project based Tutorial book, together with DVD working samples.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

colour (3/6/2010)

Maybe iClone has now come of age, where an experienced User could Produce a Project based Tutorial book, together with DVD working samples.

I wouldn't mind trying that in the near future... It's funny you mentioned this as we had a discussion about this recently and some felt that there was no point in having a book with software changing so fast. It doesn't seem to discourage writers and publishers: for many major creative software packages there are books.

As to this discussion, the only real answer to that is making movies with a storyline in iClone.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

warlord (3/6/2010)

I'm curious MR. Chatman... can you see the forest or do all those damn trees keep getting in the way?

news.newz (3/6/2010)

why is it that peole who trash iclone don't have any iclone movies to share or show/ perhaps they are projecting thier inability to make movies onto the software

As it has been said by self and others...this IS NOT a discussion about which application is better or what works one has done that is better, but rather a discussion about the creativeness, diversity, and inspiration of directors from both communities; please stay on topic.

I've have avoided (directly) answering these types pf statements and will continue to do so.

I just started a discussion about the types of films being produced by a Lesser Product (Moviestorm) versus a Superior product (iClone) as I mentioned earlier in regards to Big Budget Hollywood films and Low Budget Independent films. Please stay on topic.

Thank you.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

twilit.tera (3/6/2010)

Okay, newcomer that I am (to iClone and the thread) I'd like to jump in here, though I honestly don't know if what I'm thinking is much of an addition to what's been said...[/quite]

Well, welcome. I am newcomer as well. Although I did not purchase iClone specifically for 3D movie making (I use it for 3D set design and special effects for my Star Wars films - still in production and weeks into months away from release) as well as doing tutorials.

[quote]Moviestorm has had the ability to do facial expressions for a while now... it just doesn't do them well.

this I did not even know, 'of course i haven;t yet made a MS movieyet, still getting the hang of it.

MS makes it easy to find the sorts of videos you're interested in seeing, and of course, you get familiar with the directors who are putting stuff out that you like.

This I thought was cool. that in the interface it leads to other videos for inspiration.

I am married to the man who came up with Circus Machinima, mentioned quite a bit earlier. (Thank you for the compliment, I'm glad you found the skits believable.)

LOL HA! That was me! I loved tats eries...sorry to see it go. It was soo funny. I like the Keannu Reeves bit and the "farm" joke!!

This is why I purchased iClone4 Pro. ...I saw some technically brilliant clips being produced, and knew that, with sufficient experience and effort, we could finally make the epic films we've kept locked up in script form. ....Our first film will be The Good Guy. No, it's not an epic, but it's cute, funny, and short

I look forward to seeing it.
Again welcome, aboard! :D

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

You all made me curious about moviestorm and i tried it. It looks nice but is totally different than Iclone. It is all preserved. In Iclone you have much more freedom to make what you want and not make what allready is there. yes it takes a lot of effort to make a movie. If you look at the end of an hollywood movie you see that it allways took more then 1 year and about 200 people to make it and a couple of million dollars out of the pocket. I am working for one of this low budget movie makers. They try for the first time to make a whole serial with Iclone, so we will see if it is possible to make a real movie voor tv or not.

Wil

By Verklagekasper - 16 Years Ago

I've never heard of Movie Storm until this thread, and the samples that are supposed to look great look like shit to me (ok, there's some After Effects going on, but that's like putting lipstick on a pig). Maybe I'm missing something?

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Verklagekasper (3/6/2010)

Teviniii (3/6/2010)

....and I'm just shaking my head at some of these stiff as a board movies that some are raving about.

But what about South Park? Do shake your head at that? This is not a discussion about the merits of iClone vs Movistorm, but rather the creative process that MS and iC filmmakers go through and their motivation. As you've pointed out you bought iC for it's capabilities, because you wanted options. But what if you didn't have options? When South Park was first created they used construction paper and the show great because they created a great show with truly believable characters in a living worlds with vastly limited resources: construction paper. Now they have big computers and the show has gotten way off track exploiting that (the backgrounds and interiors are complex, the characters have intricate joints and detailed faces). It's not the same show anymore, and to a degree pointed out by many fans, not as funny. The computers hurt the show. Only now are they starting to get back to where they were when they just used great writing and construction paper.

But: This is not a discussion about the technical merits of iClone vs Movistorm.

One thing that REALLY infuriates me on any forum is the "X vs Y" comparison; it's unneeded, causes division where there shouldn't be any and in the vast majority of cases is either a result of plain lack of info or just personal dislike (neither of which is a problem, if you fall into either of those camps)..... What DOES annoy me (nay, drives me into a fury!) is the type of attitude prevalent on Machinima.com; the "holier than thou, if it's not made in X, Y or Z it's inferior/isn't machinima/is crap, etc, etc" kind of attitude

With comparisons to South Park circa 1999 vs South Park Present Day: Movistormers use construction paper, and iCloners have big computers. This is not a discussion about X vs Y, but rather the types of films and creative motivation for films being produced by X or Y.

Please stay on topic. Please. Or at least preceed yourself with OT.

Thank you.

By W.VEEKE - 16 Years Ago

I red your first post and that made me curious. The title told me that it was about Iclone vs Moviestorm. I agree that is a bad idea, you can not compare paper and toiletpaper if you do not know what you need on what time.

Wil

By Teviniii - 16 Years Ago

But what about South Park? Do shake your head at that?

@Paul

No, because South Park FUNNY, ENTERTAINING and WELL-ACTED. Its style is intentional, not a result of technical limitations.

By animagic - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (3/6/2010)

With comparisons to South Park circa 1999 vs South Park Present Day: Movistormers use construction paper, and iCloners have big computers.

Back to the topic then... I think you underestimate the technical complexity of MovieStorm. You keep pounding on this distinction between MovieStorm filmmakers and iClone filmmakers, which I don't find very productive. I wonder where you place yourself?

I noticed your comment on the MovieStorm site about the first movie you mentioned in your first post (Saving Grace, which by the way was not done exclusively done in MS [Filmed in Moviestorm, The Movies Stunts&Effects and X³ Terran Conflict], so there goes you construction paper argument), snickering that it was so much better than what anybody had ever done in iClone [Moviestorm certainly has an advantage over iClone in this regard. Or more accurately, MS film makers are better story tellers, than iClone filmakers. heh eheh ;)], although you also admit that it is hard to find iClone movies...

I guess I'm struggling to understand what your are trying to achieve with this discussion: improving the art and science of iClone movie-making (if that is even a meaningful distinction), or what. I think we would stay on topic better if we knew what the point of the topic was and where we are going with this...

By twilit.tera - 16 Years Ago

If it's just a question about why there are more "complete" films coming from the MS crowd (and few of us are married to a single specific program, I think), then first I'd have to say that I'm not sure that there are. If you were to take it as a ratio of all the films released using either program, then it may come out pretty even. MS forums has its share of "see how I modded this" and "how I achieved that effect," not to mention music videos, etc.

Like I said, I made my first MS film in a single day. I'm not sure many of the regulars here would be terribly impressed by it, but I was certainly happy with the results. I knew what I was capable of pulling off in that amount of time with that system.

I expect a lot more from my iClone productions, but I'm also aware that it will take a *lot* more time. I may produce fewer movies over all, but they will have the technical polish that I want to achieve along with the level of storytelling that I would have written into any MS video.

good/fast/cheap - pick two.

PS. Thanks a bunch, Paul! Bruce was really happy to read what you thought of the CM skits. :)

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi Tera
I think you are proving that what I think we all know is true, that if you have a good ‘GOOD’ story then Moviestorm,Iclone,3dmax,poser, standard film camera, whatever you chose to use to tell that story really doesn’t matter . If the story is in your head and needs to get out then why not use every means necessary to tell it...We communicate with the people around us by our interpretation of the world, that’s why we tell stories, write it, film it, draw it, just get it out.........

And as for the point of this thread.. well look at it 8 pages deep, and we are talking., the last few threads over the last two weeks have may be, been emotive but they have proven the most entertaining and educational of any posts iv read in this forum, people are telling us of films to watch, books to read, new ideas.....this has encouraged me to make the film i want to make .... so keep up with this type of thread its good for the community and makes us think ...

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

my understanding is paul's proposing a theory that movestorm movies are better than iclone movies, in support of the theory:
a. one can find more movies done with moviestorm
b. paul likes more movies that were done with moviestorm
c. iclone moviemakers tend to focus on eye candy rather than storylines
d. iclone animation is stiff
e. its not the tool, it's the content
hopeful i captured it correctly but i am sure you can correct me if wrong

my comments
a. moviestorm organizes thier user created content well and it seems a majority of them are posted at the MS site. icloners tend to use scattered video hosting sites - i use youtube, TMU, vimeo, cloneclips primarily - RL has its own site but it is not easy to find nor well advertised

b. paul thinks better movies are made with moviestorm - i think there is an equal amount of great iclone, MS, the Movies and Second Life movies - i am sorry paul but your taste is not necessarily everyone's taste in movies - so what is poor to you might be great to me - but iclone adds one thing the other engines cannot - Visual quality

c. iclone movie makers tend to focus on eye candy - yes because they can, with MS you stuck with pre canned stuff

d. iclone animation is stiff, MS is stepfordian, THEMovies is mongoloidish - well even a multi-million dollar movie like Beowulf had stiff and unnatural facial expressions - for iclone this is more about the animator not focusing too much time on the motion editing but the rest of the movie

e. its not the tool, its the content - i think everyone can agree here up to a point - content to me is not only the story/the script but can also apply to sound and video - i go to movie theaters to watch movies that have very cool visuals like avatar - because i want to be wowed visually even if the story is crap. Conversely i watch movies at home on the small screen because i want to be absorbed in the story can put up with the visual crap. i still like those classic Star Trek episodes but i also like avatar even if the story was crap - because the visuals took me to worlds i only imagined

- it has been pointed out that a lot of icloners tend not to use post or 3rd party tools in thier movies - i don't think this is true for all - in my case, it is a self imposed challenge to try to do it all with one tool. I know one can use a variety of tools to round out the movie - but where's the fun in that

oh and one plug - if you get a chance watch an animated movie called Secret of Kells - i enjoyed it tremendously!

i will end with a plug for my 2010/2011 project - a Tolkien story called "The Children of Hurin" - looking to bring it to life with iClone. I know i can do the visuals and animation (self imposed challenge here) but the script is a daunting task and my main weakness. there are a lot of good script writers, but only a few want to make fantasy movies - so am looking for a script writer willing to take on this project -

for me, I just want to do it regardless of whether people watch it or not - to bring it to life visually and it will be made with or without a good script

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Beowulf is cool!

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (3/7/2010)

Beowulf is cool!

i enjoyed it myself - it had stiff animation but i did not care

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

The stiff argument is relative, have you seen Resident Evil 3D film .... I honestly think Iclone could easily beat that .............. It shouldn’t be able to but it:) can in the right hands....

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

oops forgot to add one more thing to my long winded reply

- i do agree that is it much faster to get up and running to create a visually good movie with moviestorm than iclone - a lot of the basic elements from the set, costume, and lighting are there
case i point is the large number of entries in the moviestorm make a movie with the base pack contest - lots of good movies made with the base pack

iclone as a beginner tool does not give you this - a lot of first efforts tend to look flat because newbies may not have discovered how to use the lighting, animation costume design - and there not so many ready to use sets out there

the difference is once you get proficient with iclone and discover how flexible it is - it opens up more cooler movie possibilities than MS.

By Verklagekasper - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (3/6/2010)
But what about South Park? Do shake your head at that?

Stone and Parker knew to use the shortcomings of their medium to their advantage, creating a highly stylized cartoon. They created a crude yet unique and new look, and they combined it coherently with hilarious stories that were just as crude and in-your-face as the look.
Machinimists, on the other hand, rather tend to deny the shortcomings of their medium, trying to make "real" movies and blaming the viewer if he doesn't perceive them as such.

By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago

colour (3/6/2010)

iC4 is a huge Program & you're only limited by your imagination. However, asit stands, it would take at leastyear to learn it mostly on a "Trial & Error " basis, before you can produce your Blockbuster Storyline movie.

With all due respect, that's not how I see it. Here's what I think a total newbie could do:

1. Write a GREAT script for a dramatic short, based upon Terms of Endearment and the GREAT stock motions in iC4. (Please note which action I put as #1.)
2. Record GREAT actors who appreciate GREAT parts.
3. Purchase iClone4 and the Terms of Endearment motion pack. And nothing more!
4. Trick out a very sparse set, of the sort seen in theatrical plays, using the default domestic props.
5. Turn on one of standard light sets and adjust props accordingly.
6. Load default characters, such as Dylan and Jana.
7. Load some motion files and tweak accordingly.
8. Feed the lines to the avatars for lip-synch.
9. Add a little facial puppeteering.
10. Render the movie out to AVI: edit intelligently!
11. Render the final movie to MP4; upload to a video site.
12. Start a blog just to collect all the thunderous reviews that flood in for the GREAT achievement.
13. The end.

If we could just get our heads out of our technical, um, holes in the ground, and realize that EVERYONE who isn't directly involved in mycinema-making cares MOST about story, we could start to actually realize the potential of iClone.

EDIT: I just read the insight above that some movies you see for spectacle, some for story. OK, this is very true--so I take it under advisement.

By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (3/3/2010)

Wow pau, what storylines are you interested in then? I have to ask.

- My favorite short animation is the first episode of Bendito Machine.

- My favorite short live comedy is Franz Kafka's It's a Wonderful Life.

- My favorite feature-length movie is The Wizard of Oz. I've previously stated that I consider it to be the only perfect film ever made.

- I also like that "other" movie from 1939, Gone with the Wind.

- My second-favorite movie is The King and I.

- My favorite animated feature is easily Sita Sings the Blues.

- The only horror movie I like enough to even watch is 1928 The Fall of the House of Usher. Visually, I find this film incredibly compelling, and it influences me in the making of my own. Take that back. I love 1963 The Haunting. I was also profoundly influenced by 1925 The Lost World, although this was scif-fi, not genuine horror.

- And finally, the greatest story still looking for a truly worthy film/ animation treatment is The Emperor's Nightingale. A closely related story is the very moving tale, The Velveteen Rabbit.

By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago

Now see what a foolish thing you did: you asked for my opinion!

Here are some more. :)

- "Lilo and Stitch" and "Bolt" have better stories than all the big animations you ever heard about and actually viewed. Although Monsters, Inc comes close.

- "Up" takes story and acting in animation to a new level with the relationship between Carl and Ellie.

- Bugs Bunny is to animated characters what Whitman is to poetry. CAN'T TOUCH DIS!

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

gotta add one of my faves is one Paumanok turned me on to -

The mysterious explorations of Jasper Morello

By colour - 16 Years Ago

OK Folks

If you wanna see some great iClone Storylines (Apart from mine;)), have a look at the iClone submissions, in View Clips & Clips Archives, in Pinhead's Website.

And; how about submitting a Clip yourselves for the current Project, with prizes?

By Capemedia - 16 Years Ago

aknzrdude (3/7/2010)

gotta add one of my faves is one Paumanok turned me on to -

The mysterious explorations of Jasper Morello

Thanks Gabe and Paumanok that was amazing :)

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Incarcerated is a good little short.
I could have sworn i saw something with an iClone project. Anyone know what
I'm talking about? Hm? Can't recall where is saw it? It wasn't "Coming Home"
though, but it was 'Twilight Zoney' like this one.

Thought this thread was dead by now. Guess not..heh heh. So not having read ALL the pages of posts, is this thread still about the creative potential of Moviestorm and iClone directors? Or are we still bambi'ing-about which product is better? :rolleyes:

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

aknzrdude (3/7/2010)

gotta add one of my faves is one Paumanok turned me on to -

The mysterious explorations of Jasper Morello

For the first frames I thought this was an iClone movie, until I read the description more closely.

Has anyone used Vue to create scenes for iClone? Can you use Vue scenes?

By Paumanok West - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (3/13/2010)

to create scenes for iClone? Can you use Vue scenes?

In one sense, you can use anything to make scenes for iClone, now that you can import video for backgrounds. But this is probably not the answer you're looking for, because the characters can't interact with the original objects--this includes an inability to pass behind them...

...Unless you output various layers of the scene to green screens and bring them in as transparent videos, using PopVideo2.

The situation ought to change when the 3DXChange is released. Soon, perhaps?

By Darren01 - 16 Years Ago

In my humble opinion.... :) Iclone has the capability to achieve almost anything as far as filmaking goes. Sure it won't have the level of detail and be as polished as the big hollywood productions as their packages cost 10's of thousands of $$. But this aside I think it comes down to the producer. In comparison to the other entry level film production software, I've looked at a lot of packages, and honestly Iclone's abilities and features suit me better than the rest.

biggest limitation of amatuer/hobbyist productions, is the amount of people working on the film. In most of our cases it's just one person. A good quality 10 minute film takes 100's of hours for a single person to put together, whereas a team of people could do it in a fraction of that time. For example a single person production, would probably rely heavily on preset/AML animation sequences, which often look very robotic (in Iclone anyway). For example instructing an avatar to walk up to a chair and sit. The avatar walks over to the seat, stops, turns around and then sits. Whereas if you manually animated the sequence, you would make the avatar turn towards the seat as it walked over to the seat in one fluid action, making it appear far more natural/human. But of course manually animating everything takes enormous time.

The thing I notice too with most of the films created by packages like Iclone etc, is the storyline is usually lacking. And I can understand why. Due to the time it takes to create a film, we are generally aiming a making a very short film ie 10-15 minutes. It is VERY difficult to establish character/s and a create a storyline with substance in such a short space of time. It can and has been done, but it really presents an amatuer filmaker with an enormous challenge. A challenge I am struggling with at this very moment!

By gizmo - 16 Years Ago

Darren01 (3/18/2010)

The thing I notice too with most of the films created by packages like Iclone etc, is the storyline is usually lacking. And I can understand why. Due to the time it takes to create a film, we are generally aiming a making a very short film ie 10-15 minutes. It is VERY difficult to establish character/s and a create a storyline with substance in such a short space of time. It can and has been done, but it really presents an amatuer filmaker with an enormous challenge. A challenge I am struggling with at this very moment!

Good point.

By jwm2002 - 16 Years Ago

gizmo (3/18/2010)

Darren01 (3/18/2010)

Good point.

Don't know if you saw the Oscars a few weeks ago, but when they gave away the one for best animation, they had a short video showing how many short-animation directors later moved on to much larger-than-life productions/movies because of the efforts crammed into those 10-15 min shorts.

By twilit.tera - 16 Years Ago

Everybody starts somewhere. :)

By planetstardragon - 16 Years Ago

Darren01 (3/18/2010)

Due to the time it takes to create a film, we are generally aiming a making a very short film ie 10-15 minutes. It is VERY difficult to establish character/s and a create a storyline with substance in such a short space of time.

amen to that, I found that set design, story line, texturing, motion design, character design, soundscape, lighting, film music, casting and acting, etc are all an art in itself, It is humbling to feel like you can do it all yet have this feeling of not knowing what idea is good enough or where to start, and when you do start every little aspect can take hours or days ....I can see it and hear it but executing it isn't as fast!

Perhaps reallusion can design a brain plug in to help speed this process ? as you think it, iclone builds it !! O.o

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

Darren01 (3/18/2010)

True, but that is still no excuse. I have seen 10 minute shorts that blow 2 hour blockbusters away.

But while not as ascetically visual as an iClone production the GHOST series (a teaser really) is the best Moviestorm film I have seen so far. The film maker, MrKip2001 should be commended.

It just shows that the product does not make the film great, the film maker does.

GHOST (Parts 1 - 4)

By musicaz - 16 Years Ago

why would anyone compare moviestorm

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

They have a lot of features in common like the new (1970) 3D :D

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

musicaz (6/23/2010)

omg , why would anyone compare moviestorm to anything . I mean moviestorm is like toilet paper , and just comparing moviestorm to Iclone cheapens ,, iclone , unfairly. Moviestorm might be easy to use, however just look at the out put quality , then take the software and delete it from your hard drive ... LoL

Well dang Musicaz, you didn't have to slaughter moviestorm. Ouch.

Ok this is getting old. It kind of reminds me of the "which system is better for games?" (the answer is PC (and possibly Mac) by the way)

Now, technically, WE ALL KONW iClone is supurior... is it "better"? I don't know, that's an opinionative word.... Does Moviestorm have post proccesing effects... no... does movie storm have as much character customization... no. Does movie storm have at least simulated physics... no. Does moviestorm have as much material options as iCLone have... no.

There. We're done. iClone has more features.

Oh wait... does iClone have a credits thing... no... but that can be done in Windows Movie maker with ease.

Does iClone have better story lines?... NOT APPLICABLE!!!

So there...w e're done.

Lock the thread please.

... LOL I'm not actually as angry as I sound, just makin' a point.

Sorry for all my mispellings.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Oh one more thing.

The story of a movie is important, but I really REALLY enjoy things with nice visual and graphics effects... and sound effects too, can't forget those.

So when a moviestorm movie is released and it has some ... meh... graphics, it's still cool to watch, don't get me wrong, but somehow it's still... a LITTLE lacking... just a little.

By warlord720 - 16 Years Ago

Story is important... but the right amount of well placed and well done fluff is very effective. Ok... maybe not a 14 hour flyaround of the starship enterprise but had that been cut to oh... say... 45 seconds to maybe a minute and a half... we would have wanted more.

That balance is hard to achieve for me. I like my bright, shiny objects.:cool:

By codewarrior - 16 Years Ago

Moviestorm has won the 48 Hour Film Contest Machinima edition three years in a row.

Noone has entered using iClone.

I will be entering using iClone this year, and it would be great if some of you did as well.

http://www.48hourfilm.com/machinima/

September 17th, 18th 19th

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

I'll reply to this by sayiong, and I've tried: it is not possible to create a really good film with iClone in 48hours unless you really know the software. MS can do this "out the box".

But, Dreamcube107 - this discussion was about "film quality" not technology. I tried and failed to to make that point to many of you 11 pages ago.

Peace.

PS - I have never made a film with either package. What does that tell you?

By Capemedia - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (8/4/2010)

PS - I have never made a film with either package. What does that tell you?

Millions don't make films but they are the audience and their opinions count. I think of it like, car makers don't sell cars to only mechanics :cool:

By rgathje - 16 Years Ago

When I saw this thread the first thing I thought was 'is this still going'. 12 pages and the only conclusion I can see is that everyone has an opinion and some are a little more outgoing about theirs than others. I have used both. I don't worry to much about which is better, I am just trying to learn about how to make a movie. They both are good and they are both bad. Okay I put my 2 cents in.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Hm. I know I have given opinions, but I'm just trying to state some facts.

If you look at the feature list, iClone has some slightly advanced features (unless moviestorm did some updates I didn't hear about) are they BETTER features... I don't know... you tell me. I think they're a little cooler, but that's me.

I THINK iClone has a slightly more complex texturing system, but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that.

And as for the "film quality" ... you can't disconnect it from the technology because it's something on a computer being entirely generated by a computer.

Sure you could say, "forget the tech, I just want really good lighting like in films"... well ok, how do we do this... Oh, global illumination would be good... oh wait... we can't. WE can sort of IF we find some tricks, but that's just finding away through using and advancing the technology.

"I need a scene wit 12 different point lights in it and two directional lights." Well, the tech in iClone limits you to 4 lights... as a whole (or 5?) ... sorry.

Even something as simple as "sun light" is part of the tech, because it's not actually working the way a real sun would even work. Nothing inCG works EXACTLY like it'd work in real life, so you can't totally disconnect yourself from the technology.

In audio, people love using computers to record and compose and everything. One of the first lessons in my recording classes was "how to manage files on a computer" As long as your using technology to do something, you an't totally break away from it.

There are programs that try to simulate something completly so you don't have to worry at all about it. There's a free program called Luxrender which does very nice real world light simulation. That means, if you have a white light in a room, and you want to make it slightly brighter, you put a white plane near the front of the light and there ya go... just like in the real world. But you still don't completly escape technology, because how are you going to get models in there in the first place? What file formats does it take?

My point is that I see you are worried about the output, but you can't really seperate it and that's why I keep bringing it up.

Yes, Moviestorm does make it a bit more simple, but iClone does have supurior output qualtiy... maybe not many display it, but it does have more potential. Anyone disagree? ... so then Moviestorm can take HDR maps then?... I wasn't aware moviestorm had post proccessing effects. Also I think iClone has more animation capabilities too. I remember a post in the MS forum saying that people couldn't be different heights because then they couldn't interact with each other and I thought "Why can't you guys just change the animations so that they can?" It's like the thought never even crossed their minds. I'm not dissing MS, I'm just stating what iClone can do vs. what Moviestorm can do.

PS: In MS's defence though, it's still in beta where iClone is well into version 4. So we'll see.

By paul.chatman - 16 Years Ago

codewarrior (7/29/2010)

Moviestorm has won the 48 Hour Film Contest Machinima edition three years in a row. Noone has entered using iClone. I will be entering using iClone this year, and it would be great if some of you did as well.
http://www.48hourfilm.com/machinima/
September 17th, 18th 19th

I belive the case is that Moviestorm allows its users to generate a film pretty much on the fly as does end user game tools like Unreal ED, Neverwinter Nights Toolset, WorldBuilder, and whatever Valve calls the thing that makes the Half-Life mods and stuff.

Truth be told iClone takes to much work to get it to do what you want (it's silly interface doesn't help, either) - in order to create a movie in iClone in 48hrs you'de REALLY have to know the software. For a beginner to iClone: that's NOT gonna happen. I think that's why Moviestorm won: a beginner can create a movie immediately after install - in fact, the Tutorial is an actual movie project that shows how to use to the software (you can even edit the tutorial).

Possibly, too, the Machinama crowd don't really consider iClone a Machinama tool, from I've heard. But from it's primary definition, neither is Moviestorm or Moovevue (sp?).

By aknzrdude - 16 Years Ago

actually the reason no iclone work won was becuase they did not allow iclone in - until this year that is

By thebiz.movies - 16 Years Ago

paul.chatman (8/5/2010)

Truth be told iClone takes to much work to get it to do what you want (it's silly interface doesn't help, either) - in order to create a movie in iClone in 48hrs you'de REALLY have to know the software. For a beginner to iClone: that's NOT gonna happen. I think that's why Moviestorm won: a beginner can create a movie immediately after install - in fact, the Tutorial is an actual movie project that shows how to use to the software (you can even edit the tutorial).

The team that won the 48 hour contest last year was composed of GrouchoBeer and Act3scene24. Act3 is the guy who made Ad Hominem Attack which is one of the Moviestorm movies you cited in the first post. They were a team who was very creative, adaptive and knew the Moviestorm software very well (and they had 48 hours of free time one supposes). A new moviestorm user might be able to put something together in 48 hours but it probably wouldnt be on the same level as the flick that won.

Iclone could totally compete in this contest if the user knows the software and understands the limits and constraints imposed. From rumors that I have heard around, there is a similarly gifted team coming together that might represent Iclone. I don't have 48 hours to spare but I kinda wish I did.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

I don't see why iClone wasn't allowed and moviestorm was... in all truth, niehter are actuall GAME ENGINES.

I've not used the neverwinter Nights thing, but I'll take a look.

I have the UDK (Unreal Development Kit) and it is great... but it's by no means a "do something awesome right away" tool. You have to do a lot of set up unless the version with Unreal Tourniment comes with a bunch more characters and stuff... maybe it does, not sure.

The Valve one is called the Source engine and there's something called Gary's Mod which is powered by it.

There is possibly a new character joining the field and that is the CryEngine. Now... the CryEngine has probably some of the best graphics out to date... but I don't know how it fairs in the mache crowd because I've seen no movies made with it, just level and game mods. I'm seriously thinking of buying Crysis, JUST for the sandbox with all the shaders and stuff.

It now seems like anything that's fairly nonexpensive and renders in realtime is automatically accepted as a mache tool... so what if some full 3D modeler package came out that rendered using DirectX 11... would that count? (TrueSpace)

By codewarrior - 16 Years Ago

Saying that one is 'better' than the other is a red herring. The two apps are different.

Film is different from video. A 'beginner' can get a video camera and get going right away. You can't do that with film or you end up with a bunch of under or over exposed footage and a very expensive mistake.

With video, you can see the results 'right away'. With film you can't.

Having said that, there are lots of people who would argue that film is 'superior' and would laugh at you if you told them that video was better because it was easier for a beginner to work with.

In any case, I take it from your post that you won't be entering the 48 Hour Film Project this year using iClone. I hope you consider entering it using Moviestorm.

By warlord720 - 16 Years Ago

Ahh yes... the thread that never dies.

Like a lot of folks I believe its the moviemakers themselves that make the difference. The team last year that won the event was extremely talented and probably would have won had they used iClone with the degree of knowledge they have with Moviestorm.

iClone is the least complicated software I've used and the interface is top notch. Perhaps the best I've worked with in terms of putting things at my fingertips but then thats just me and I'm way too old to speak in terms of absolutes for other users because experience has taught me that there are far too many users out there with different methods of getting the job done.

The best part of all this is... no matter what anyone says... no matter how hard some may try to convince others of one thing or another... the end user doesn't have to listen to any of it. In my little world... what I am... and how I value myself and my work has nothing to do with most people's opinion of me or my software unless I have a deep and abiding respect for them from interacting with them or unless they are my employer which makes the argument mute. While I respect and appreciate anyone's opinion and appreciate the fact that they even watched one of my productions... their opinion of what software I used is irrelevant to me.

Can't count the times I've had a newb tell me that some software package sucks but very seldom do I come across veterans of any software that say the same otherwise they wouldn't be veterans of the software unless there was no alternative.

I'm very glad to have as many tools at my disposal as possible to get the job done and would use MS if they could find a financial model that will work for them. Otherwise... why invest time in something that may grow stale or even disappear one day if that magic financial number is not reached? No disrespect to moviestorm meant... just making a point.

Research & Development costs money. No way around it. You gotta have a successful financial model before you have the money for proper R & D.

Soooo... in the context of ms vs iclone... does this mean that Reallusion is financially sound because it's buyers are more affluent? Better marketing? Consumer choice? Could be any, all or none of those things. But looking at how one company changes financial models X amount of times since its inception (or even in a year) versus a company that just keeps expanding its product line and the capabilities may tell us something... or it may just be the way the cards fall.

I see one company as having reactive management while the other has proactive management.

And again... if the movie is good... who gives a rat's butt what it was created in unless you want to use that software???

My soapbox is collapsing under my considerable weight so I must end this to find a sturdier box.:cool:

Rock on with the MS/iClone wars... this is a very informative and entertaining thread and would probably make a good spoof movie in itself. I can see animated boxs of MS and iClone lining up in an old fashioned war. Spears and swords rattling!

By bluemidget666 - 16 Years Ago

Hi

The naming of this thread is wrong; it should be Iclone movie makers Vs Moviestorm movie makers.
After listening to the recent Dulci and Wolf show Aug 23rd I came away realising why I am not being very productive with Iclone, in fact I’m considerably less productive with it now than I was when I first use it, even though I know much more about how to use it now. The reason is simple I started using Iclone because I wanted to make films, now I play with Iclone because it’s a lot of fun to play with all the features and special effects.
The show (for those who didn’t listen to it) had two passionate film makers’ thebiz and Mark from smallwstudio who happen to use Iclone. I say happen to use Iclone because most of the conversation was about the joy of making a film over the joy of using Iclone to make a film. After the show I realised that though I do love using and talking about Iclone this only inspires me to play with Iclone but I am inspired to make a film when I’m talking about or listening to subjects around film making.
There was a claim in the show though, that the Iclone forum is a technical forum (which for most part it is) If that’s true is there any room in the forum for discussions and tutorials on basic film making as the Iclone community has a wealth of experienced film makers not just experienced Iclone users.

By Dreamcube017 - 16 Years Ago

Hm I can't enter the 48 hour movie contest this year sadly, but if I did, I'd be using iClone.

And yeah Blue, that makes sense.

I'm a sucker for sparkly graphics. But I still try to make a film or something with it. My main problem is almost always character setup... it's not that I can't do it. I'd make something and then people would be like "Oh that character's wrong." and I'd be like UGH now I have to go back and do this and that... I'd rather just use premade ones since I'm not much of a character person... anyway...

Yeah, the main point is it DOESN'T MATTER! I like using iClone more so there ya go. Others may like MovieStorm more so there ya go. Some may like using UDK or CryEngine or whatever, so there ya go.

If moviestorm movies seem to be better, it's because the people making them know what they're doing. Not to say that others using other software don't, but by the way this thread is going, I'm guessing that was the main point.

THE END... again